So can we talk non-compete clauses?

[Trismegistus4]

This is an issue I was always dimly aware of in the back of my mind, but became much more worried about after recently going on a job interview for an employed position where they actually mentioned their standard non-compete clause. It was a small city with, to my knowledge, one other psych hospital, and then probably not much until you get at least 60 miles or more away. Their non-compete clause barred the employed physician from practicing in the entire county, plus one neighboring county, for 2 years after leaving.

For a single guy, this wouldn't be the end of the world, especially in a city where you're not set on spending the rest of your life. But imagine you get married, settle down, buy a house, have kids... and then the hospital administration changes hands, and it becomes a hellish place for doctors, and you feel the need to get out of there. Because of the non-compete, doing so would require leaving the entire area. You can't just jump ship to the hospital across town. If it were a 5 mile radius in NYC or LA, that's not so bad. But in this area, you'd have to sell your house, and uproot your kids from the local school system. They really have you trapped.

Are these things negotiable, or are there such things as employed positions that don't force you to sign one? This whole issue is making me rethink the idea of taking an employed position at all.

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[notdeadyet]

Everything is negotiable. I wouldn't sign a non-compete like that in an area I wanted to be.


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[Doctor Bagel]

I think that would be a no go. One upside is that these are generally not enforceable (of course ask a lawyer in your state for verification on this), but still, that's not reasonable.

 

[wolfvgang22]

If they aren't willing to compromise with you, walk away. An area like that is likely in great need of a psychiatrist, so you have some leverage. If they won't work with you on this you don't want to work there.

 

[wolfvgang22]

*duplicate post*

 

[Doctor Bagel]

This is an issue I was always dimly aware of in the back of my mind, but became much more worried about after recently going on a job interview for an employed position where they actually mentioned their standard non-compete clause. It was a small city with, to my knowledge, one other psych hospital, and then probably not much until you get at least 60 miles or more away. Their non-compete clause barred the employed physician from practicing in the entire county, plus one neighboring county, for 2 years after leaving.

For a single guy, this wouldn't be the end of the world, especially in a city where you're not set on spending the rest of your life. But imagine you get married, settle down, buy a house, have kids... and then the hospital administration changes hands, and it becomes a hellish place for doctors, and you feel the need to get out of there. Because of the non-compete, doing so would require leaving the entire area. You can't just jump ship to the hospital across town. If it were a 5 mile radius in NYC or LA, that's not so bad. But in this area, you'd have to sell your house, and uproot your kids from the local school system. They really have you trapped.

Are these things negotiable, or are there such things as employed positions that don't force you to sign one? This whole issue is making me rethink the idea of taking an employed position at all.

Add on to those concerns that in an area like that, it's probably hard to sell your house and not lose money. You're laying out all the reasons why this is entirely unreasonable, which also why courts generally don't enforce these clauses. Why are they so uptight about that? If they are a good employer who pays appropriately, they shouldn't have to worry about other local employers stealing their people.

 

[wolfvgang22]

They are probably more worried about a psychiatrist opening a private practice out patient clinic in a smaller city/area and taking patients with them than competing hospitals. I work in a medium sized city and local hospital clinics complain they used to get burned all the time in various specialties once the physician is established and known in the area. Also, its about control, ego, and making all the money that should probably go to the physician. I thought doctors had big egos until I met enough hospital administrators!

 

[Trismegistus4]

They are probably more worried about a psychiatrist opening a private practice out patient clinic in a smaller city/area and taking patients with them than competing hospitals. I work in a medium sized city and local hospital clinics complain they used to get burned all the time in various specialties once the physician is established and known in the area.

I agree that that's probably the main concern. I did interview for another all-inpatient job, which didn't have a non-compete, and they explicitly said that was because with an inpatient doc they weren't concerned about that.

 

[sunlioness]

At my last job, they told me the non-compete was the one thing they would absolutely not negotiate. I'm not sure why it's such a big deal. I imagine they don't want people opening their own practices. The weird thing was that not everyone had that in their contract. MDs and psychologists did, but it wasn't unusual for LCSWs to leave and start their own practices.


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[Shikima]

Just remember, they need you more than you need them.

 

[PistolPete]

The non-compete clause says you can't work in the entire county? That's complete BS. Walk away. I'm sure they won't find a good self-respecting psychiatrist to fill that position.

 

[F0nzie]

Turn the job down and open up a private practice down the street. The competition is on baby.

 

[sunlioness]

The crazy thing was my old organization had severe access problems. The community was in desperate need for psychiatrists and we had more patients than we knew what to do with. I don't think the lack of a non compete would've made much of a difference.

I asked the place where I started today how their access was. They said, "Meh. We shoot for two weeks, but sometimes it's more like five." I was like, whoa ... I'm used to 4-6 months. It was that bad. I guess that's the difference between a Midwestern cornfield and a major NE metro area. And I don't recall if my current contract has a non compete. It might. But I'm not remembering it.


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[downwithDTB]

I looked into this for a partner in a related profession. The answer ended up being: use it as a negotiating tool but don't actually care about it. For medicine/related, in many instances its completely unenforceable and you would go on doing whatever it is that you want to do. A contract with illegal terms is meaningless. As a general principal, an employment contract can't prevent you from reasonably earning a living in the future. They can prevent you from stealing trade secrets or using trade knowledge to out compete them, but that would generally be limited to taking patients with you from the practice or advertising while still employed. There's a lot of caselaw here that I don't know and may be state dependent... But the answer certain is not "whatever the contract says, you have to live by."

This may be bunk advice, I'm not a lawyer... But you should talk to one. No need to worry about signing a contract provision that can't be enforced.

This might be a good place to start, followed by your local attorney:
http://www.bassberry.com/~/media/Fi...HLA_Article_Horton_and_Padgett_April_2013.pdf

 

[Doctor Bagel]

So about contract issues, are you guys getting attorneys to look over your contracts? I haven't, but I know some SDN'ers do. I'm not even sure how to identify who would be a good attorney to do this type of review. I know there are tons of underemployed lawyers out there and all so maybe it doesn't cost too much money to hire one for contract review?

 

[masterofmonkeys]

I thought doctors had big egos until I met enough hospital administrators!

QFT

 

[JamesPhilly]

This is such a ridiculous thing that some employers do. I mean, imagine the equivalent in a prenuptial agreement: you can't date or marry another person for x amount of years within a certain area. How on earth could you legally tell a person what to do with their life?

One of the JD/MDs that work with me said the non-compete clause would probably not be enforceable, but you'd spend a fortune in legal fees before the court would rule in your favour, so don't bother challenging it. Which is pretty much the US legal system summed up in one sentence, right?

Anyway, I'd find a different job offer. Not like there aren't a lot going around. Good luck!

 

[downwithDTB]

One more thing to mention, private entities can't "compete" with the state, therefore, you could get a VA or state hospital job and definitely not have to worry about being sued (or at least be assured a quick and cheap dismissal) to run out a non-compete.

 

[kitsens]

Echo, fonzie. Nonsense , open your own , you don't need them

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

This is an issue I was always dimly aware of in the back of my mind, but became much more worried about after recently going on a job interview for an employed position where they actually mentioned their standard non-compete clause. It was a small city with, to my knowledge, one other psych hospital, and then probably not much until you get at least 60 miles or more away. Their non-compete clause barred the employed physician from practicing in the entire county, plus one neighboring county, for 2 years after leaving.

Non-compete clauses varies greatly in their legality and overall ability to be enforced. Obviously talking to an employment lawyer in your state would be best. That said, I've had to deal with non-compete clauses at multiple jobs (both in healthcare and prior) and the issue typically comes down to geography, specificity, and duration. The clauses I've seen stick are generally narrow in geography (within 10 miles of prior office location) very specific in job description (employed with a Big 4 accounting firm as an accountant), and with a realistic time of duration (12months). That can be argued in front of a judge more easily than 50miles, practicing medicine, and two years. Some states bar them completely, though many employees don't realize this. While other states have much more vague parameters for them, which can make it dicey to get out from under. Overly broad and non-specific non-compete clauses are harder to enforce because they are often quite unreasonable, unlike the example I gave above.

In psychiatry you should feel confident that there are plenty of more jobs out there than this one. If you were a trauma surgeon and there was one hospital in your town and they had one spot and nothing for 150+ mi…then that is a different conversation.

 

[dl2dp2]

I agree with the others. I suspect in your instance you can start your own private practice extremely quickly in a high need area and the non-compete is to force you to stay put and get stuck in an employed position. I would just get rid of it (or make it much more narrow), and if they don't want to negotiate, walk or start your own practice.