Some advice for yoru secondaries

[Goro]

After seeing a few recent threads about these subjects, here's my two cents:


The “diversity” prompt for secondaries (as in "How will you add to the diversity of our class"?) is NOT about your ethnic background. It’s about what unique thing do you bring to the entering Class? Think of it this way: if I asked your three best friends “what’s the coolest thing about you?” what would they say?

Give some serious thought to the “tell us about a time you failed” or “What’s the biggest obstacle that you overcame?” prompts. I believe a lot of people get weeded out by this one for being superficial, or coming across as over privileged. Yes, I know some of you have charmed lives, but if the biggest hurt in your life was getting a C or B for the first time, that’s not going to go down very well. Remember, to those who are given much, much is expected. So avoid writing something that would make a screener or interviewer think "that's it??"

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[DreamBig01]

Goro,

In regards to the biggest obstacle prompt, in my personal statement one of my main reasons for pursuing medicine is being by my father's side as he battled a disease that eventually took his life and witnessing the roles that a physician takes. Would it be acceptable to elaborate more on the loss of a parent and the challenges associated in the secondary?

Thanks for your time and helpful posts

 

[brommanders]

.

 

[whitemagic]

Thanks for the advice Goro!

 

[-----MD]

Thanks Goro!
Quick Question: How personal should obstacles be? I can choose between a few ranging from familial obstacles, medical obstacles, educational etc....

 

[nRomaleos]

I have a related question. Some of these gigantic secondaries ask for so many things, that I just can't help but mention overlapping situations.

The UC's have most meaningful 1) volunteer, 2) research, 3) obstacle, etc. etc.
For one example, my volunteer experiences in my primary were already written as a Most Meaningful.

Wouldn't it be illogical and disingenuous to write about something else? And wouldn't elaboration appear repetitive?

 

[Goro]

Perfectly OK!

Thanks Goro! For the first question, I'm URM raised in a poor, immigrant community. I wrote about this in my diversity statement since I have health-related experiences with this same population. Is this not the correct approach?

 

[Goro]

Really, what has challenged you the most in life? Moving away from home to go to college? Dealing with people of a very different culture? Confronting your own prejudice? These prompts are valuable because they make you really think about yourself. Not everyone goes experiences the death of someone, or some other trauma.

Thanks Goro!
Quick Question: How personal should obstacles be? I can choose between a few ranging from familial obstacles, medical obstacles, educational etc....

Also perfectly OK. Prompts can overlap. Don't overthink these....they need to come from inside you....from the heart.

In regards to the biggest obstacle prompt, in my personal statement one of my main reasons for pursuing medicine is being by my father's side as he battled a disease that eventually took his life and witnessing the roles that a physician takes. Would it be acceptable to elaborate more on the loss of a parent and the challenges associated in the secondary?

 

[HybridEarth]

I have some employment with more than 2 years of duration. Do you think it's ok to approximate the hours? Some weeks were much longer than others, so I don't really have a way of verifying a total (even through HR)

 

[Affiche]

This diversity statement has turned out to be the bane of my existence.

 

[Cotterpin]

@Goro, what do I do if the greatest obstacle in my life is a big part of my personal statement? Should I write about it again, or should I write about another, smaller obstacle? For instance, I was a heavy smoker for 8 years, then successfully quit 7 years ago.

 

[Goro]

The PS should be for "Who Am I?" and "Why Medicine?" I think your smoking issues would be better fodder for the secondary. You can still refer to it in the PS, just flesh out the story in the secondary.

@Goro, what do I do if the greatest obstacle in my life is a big part of my personal statement? Should I write about it again, or should I write about another, smaller obstacle? For instance, I was a heavy smoker for 8 years, then successfully quit 7 years ago.

 

[Cotterpin]

The PS should be for "Who Am I?" and "Why Medicine?" I think your smoking issues would be better fodder for the secondary. You can still refer to it in the PS, just flesh out the story in the secondary.

No, I mean I had a much larger, whole-life sort of obstacle that I wrote about in my PS. I didn't write about smoking in my PS at all. I'm considering writing about smoking for the secondaries, even though I feel like it might be one of those "is that it?" superficial challenges.

 

[chocoholicsoxfan]

Ok, so I have a question regarding the biggest challenge/time you felt stressed question.

So I've had to face a lot of the challenges people talk about- overcoming an injury to play a sport, moving hundreds of miles for college, etc. But I don't feel like I experienced any personal growth as a result of these challenges. The two "challenges" I've overcome are

1) My significant weight loss

And

2) Maintaining relationships (family, friends) at home while I was abroad.

I believe that both these things actually lent themselves to a lot of growth. Now, are these two topics too cushy to write about? Should I just BS something about dancing through a knee injury or moving away from home instead?

 

[Affiche]

@chocoholicsoxfan it might be because I work with diabetics or that I'm a huge health nut that's interested in primary care, but I personally think that discussing the journey of losing weight to lead a healthier lifestyle would be phenomenal to read about, if done well. Losing weight is frustrating and at times demoralizing, and takes a lot of commitment. I root for that one!

 

[Goro]

Your subject is perfectly fine. To reiterate, a trivial answer is one like ""it was my first C"!, or "It was the first test I ever failed!"

No, I mean I had a much larger, whole-life sort of obstacle that I wrote about in my PS. I didn't write about smoking in my PS at all. I'm considering writing about smoking for the secondaries, even though I feel like it might be one of those "is that it?" superficial challenges.

A) Whether you realize it or not, you DID have personal growth!
B) Either 1 or 2 are fine.

Seriously kids, stop fussing!

Ok, so I have a question regarding the biggest challenge/time you felt stressed question.
So I've had to face a lot of the challenges people talk about- overcoming an injury to play a sport, moving hundreds of miles for college, etc. But I don't feel like I experienced any personal growth as a result of these challenges. The two "challenges" I've overcome are

1) My significant weight loss

And

2) Maintaining relationships (family, friends) at home while I was abroad.

I believe that both these things actually lent themselves to a lot of growth. Now, are these two topics too cushy to write about? Should I just BS something about dancing through a knee injury or moving away from home instead?

 

[XxThaDoggxX]

More great advice from Goro! Thanks again!!!

 

[Lawpy]

Excellent work as always @Goro. Altruism is what you and other adcoms, as well as medical faculty, are showing: spending time on SDN and helping paranoid premeds succeed in the application cycle and get into medical school. We are truly indebted to you (except for the senseless loose cannons that pop up, but that's the flaws of the internet)

I wish i could save this thread in my signature, but alas, i'm stuck with the 5-link cap.

 

[698344]

Goro giveth, and goro taketh away.

 

[aesthetical]

Goro is my ride or die WOE love u man

 

[Affiche]

Every time Goro gives me advice I walk away from the computer like

 

[Goro]

You gotta send us an app!!!

Every time Goro gives me advice I walk away from the computer like

 

[Affiche]

Goro does your school require attendance?

If I suspect correctly, you will be getting an application from me! Please out yourself if you interview me

 

[nwts]

Give some serious thought to the “tell us about a time you failed” or “What’s the biggest obstacle that you overcame?” prompts. I believe a lot of people get weeded out by this one for being superficial, or coming across as over privileged. Yes, I know some of you have charmed lives, but if the biggest hurt in your life was getting a C or B for the first time, that’s not going to go down very well. Remember, to those who are given much, much is expected. So avoid writing something that would make a screener or interviewer think "that's it??"

I'm a little confused about this issue. I view those two prompts to be fundamentally very different. I view the first to be one that is open to any challenge, as long as it's not completely asinine (like being cut in line at Starbucks or something). Since it just says "a time you failed," I don't view it as requiring the biggest challenge you've ever faced. The second one, however, explicitly states that it wants the biggest obstacle, so it better be pretty big. Am I misunderstanding?

The reason I ask is because of a response I have written regarding: "Name a challenge you've faced and how you handled it." So this one doesn't say biggest challenge. I wrote about taking Orgo 1 and bombing the first test. My essay isn't along the lines of: "Oh my gosh, that was the first time a test ever went poorly and it was AWFUL." It was more about how I learned that I had been approaching that class and studying incorrectly, and that painful test score helped me to learn about some of my weaknesses and correct them. I wanted to write about this because I truly did learn about myself and improve on some personal weaknesses. Is this okay, or is it too trivial?

 

[Goro]

My point about the advice is not that you should be obsessing about the exact wording of the prompt, only to give a good answer. Yes, many of these will overlap in their query. Yes, sometimes answers will overlap as well.

I'm a little confused about this issue. I view those two prompts to be fundamentally very different. I view the first to be one that is open to any challenge, as long as it's not completely asinine (like being cut in line at Starbucks or something). Since it just says "a time you failed," I don't view it as requiring the biggest challenge you've ever faced. The second one, however, explicitly states that it wants the biggest obstacle, so it better be pretty big. Am I misunderstanding?

The reason I ask is because of a response I have written regarding: "Name a challenge you've faced and how you handled it." So this one doesn't say biggest challenge. I wrote about taking Orgo 1 and bombing the first test. My essay isn't along the lines of: "Oh my gosh, that was the first time a test ever went poorly and it was AWFUL." It was more about how I learned that I had been approaching that class and studying incorrectly, and that painful test score helped me to learn about some of my weaknesses and correct them. I wanted to write about this because I truly did learn about myself and improve on some personal weaknesses. Is this okay, or is it too trivial?

 

[Goro]

Only for particular labs or small-group exercises/PBLs that are labor intensive for the Faculty.

We're not LECOM! We respect our students as adults who have different learning styles.

Goro does your school require attendance?

If I suspect correctly, you will be getting an application from me! Please out yourself if you interview me

 

[-----MD]

@Goro can the obstacle be the same theme as the main focus of my personal statement?

EDIT: Just noticed this was addressed. Apologies

 

[nwts]

My point about the advice is not that you should be obsessing about the exact wording of the prompt, only to give a good answer. Yes, many of these will overlap in their query. Yes, sometimes answers will overlap as well.

My question isn't so much about overlap. I'm more asking about what you mean by a trivial challenge. You said that saying: "I got a C," comes off poorly, and the way you described it seemed kind of like the problem was a little bit along the lines of: "You look like a whiny brat complaining that you got a not awesome grade one time and it was a bad experience." I can see how it would come off badly to imply that getting a C meant you had experienced terrible hardship. However, is it okay to talk about a bad grade as a challenge in the context of what you learned from it, and not in the context of it being a really terrible hardship that one had endured? Basically, is it ever an acceptable answer to a "challenge you have faced" question? Is it okay to say if you put it in the right context, or does it just always look bad?

 

[Goro]

IF it answers the questions "Who am I?" and "Why Medicine?" One can briefly touch on, say, losing a parent to cancer in the PS and expand on this in the secondary.

@Goro can the obstacle be the same theme as the main focus of my personal statement?

 

[-----MD]

My Who am I? and Why Medicine? answer is predominantly related to a struggle with identity/family and a medical condition which is the also the most obvious answer for my obstacles overcome question. I can brainstorm for something new, but going down a similar route to my PS is the obvious and what I think best choice. I just am concerned that it is repetitive.
What would you rather see, a less "intriguing" answer that is new, or a more profound obstacle that you read about in my personal statement?

Thanks (and HUGE kudos for your patience with assisting me and my fellow freaking-out premeds)

 

[Affiche]

@-----MD I'm also using something that I discussed in my PS. The way I see it, experiencing a hugely traumatic loss obviously affected me significantly and it shouldn't be a surprise that it answers "who am I?" and "what obstacles have you faced and what have you learned from them?". I'm trying to discuss these in different lights, though. For example, in my PS I really only briefly explained the loss and mostly focused on how it propelled me towards this career. In my secondaries, I'm focusing more on coping strategies and how my character has developed. For other secondary questions, I'm really trying to stay away from this topic and bring something new to the table.

 

[cactusinmyhead]

Thanks for posting this! These are questions we're all definitely stressing over.

I'm interested to hear your advice about answering "Why our school" type questions, when we have to write these over and over and over again. Beyond reading everything on their website, and looking through the school specific thread on SDN, I don't know what else I can say about some of these schools.

 

[mehc012]

Really, what has challenged you the most in life? Moving away from home to go to college? Dealing with people of a very different culture? Confronting your own prejudice? These prompts are valuable because they make you really think about yourself. Not everyone goes experiences the death of someone, or some other trauma.

I'd imagine you can err on the side of too personal/traumatic as well, though...the actual biggest challenges in my life don't seem professional/appropriate enough for an app. It seems like such a fine line to walk!

 

[vantheman]

For the questions "Is there any more info that you want the adcom to know about you" type questions, would it be appropriate to talk about a semester in which you had a poor academic performance? I got a 3.1 one semester and I am thinking about using this space to discuss it and what I learned

 

[ChrisMack390]

I have given up a career as a musician to pursue medicine instead. Does that qualify as "diversity"?

On one hand, not too many other applicants will be able to say that. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much anyone cares since its not really related to medicine....

 

[IlyaR]

For greatest obstacle, would a personal family issue be gauche to include? My step father and mother split in a messy divorce that dragged out for a long long time and led to emotional and financial hardship and it is the first thing that pops up

 

[genericpremedstudent]

For me, I think one of biggest challenges I have had to face was making the decision to leave my secure, high paying career to pursue medicine. Would this come off as a sign of dedication or a red flag of lack of ability to commit?

 

[Goro]

OK all, Sorry, but I can't read your answers and advise. Ask your professors, advisor, or your colleagues here on SDN.

 

[Goro]

There has to be something other than the fact that they'll accept you.

Thanks for posting this! These are questions we're all definitely stressing over.

I'm interested to hear your advice about answering "Why our school" type questions, when we have to write these over and over and over again. Beyond reading everything on their website, and looking through the school specific thread on SDN, I don't know what else I can say about some of these schools.

Yes. Not many students are musicians. You are making the classic pre-med mistake in thinking that everything about you has to be related to Medicine.
I have given up a career as a musician to pursue medicine instead. Does that qualify as "diversity"?

On one hand, not too many other applicants will be able to say that. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much anyone cares since its not really related to medicine....

 

[DrShephardWannabe]

@Goro in regards to the "challenge you've faced/obstacle" essay that every school has;
I've made Dean's List 4/5 total semesters. However the one semester was a 2.7 GPA due to major illness hitting me right before finals and I decided not to take a med withdrawal. I feel like this isn't a very great essay topic but that it does need to be addressed somewhere, and I was wondering if this essay is the appropriate place. My cGPA is 3.5 (Likely ~3.6-3.65 upon applying) but that single semester is bringing it down substantially compared to my other 3.7+ semesters (The semester following my 2.7 was a 4.0).

 

[Affiche]

@Goro in regards to the "challenge you've faced/obstacle" essay that every school has;
I've made Dean's List 4/5 total semesters. However the one semester was a 2.7 GPA due to major illness hitting me right before finals and I decided not to take a med withdrawal. I feel like this isn't a very great essay topic but that it does need to be addressed somewhere, and I was wondering if this essay is the appropriate place. My cGPA is 3.5 (Likely ~3.6-3.65 upon applying) but that single semester is bringing it down substantially compared to my other 3.7+ semesters (The semester following my 2.7 was a 4.0).

I would advise against using this as a challenge or obstacle unless you can demonstrate that you overcame hardship. IMHO, I think the most valuable responses to this topic will be ones that demonstrate resilience or an ability to learn from failure.

 

[beeboops]

I had a question regarding the "greatest obstacle" question (much like everyone else). Truly, my greatest obstacle has been seeing myself as a doctor due to my socioeconomic standing and upbringing. I'm considered SE01 disadvantaged on AMCAS, which isn't the lowest, but I haven't really had any good academic role models and haven't had the money to pursue many opportunities. I've been fortunate enough to get merit-based scholarships and grants so I could attend a private, college-prep high school and go to a decent college. Throughout my time at these places, it's been really discouraging to me to see my peers be able to take multiple MCAT prep classes, shadow their parents' multiple doctor friends, or be able to take part in some really interesting experiences, such as the Peace Corps (which you can't do unless you're not in debt). I've been fighting constantly the really negative thoughts that I'm somehow not cut out for medicine because I will never and have never been able to do these things that will ultimately help my application. However, after I graduated from college, I started working full-time with people of a much lower socioeconomic standing than myself, and I realized that my own experiences, even though they were not nearly as hard as these individual's experiences, could help me to better understand their lives and be sensitive to their circumstances, more so than individuals who have never had to face hardship. This has been a huge motivating factor for me to pursue medicine because I believe doctors should have the cultural competency to understand their patients' situations and how those can affect their health/wellbeing.

To me, this is the most genuine response I can think of to the "greatest obstacle" question, but I'm very scared of it coming off as me whining about not having money or playing the victim card. What does everyone else think?

 

[deleted393595]

After seeing a few recent threads about these subjects, here's my two cents:


The “diversity” prompt for secondaries (as in "How will you add to the diversity of our class"?) is NOT about your ethnic background. It’s about what unique thing do you bring to the entering Class? Think of it this way: if I asked your three best friends “what’s the coolest thing about you?” what would they say?

Give some serious thought to the “tell us about a time you failed” or “What’s the biggest obstacle that you overcame?” prompts. I believe a lot of people get weeded out by this one for being superficial, or coming across as over privileged. Yes, I know some of you have charmed lives, but if the biggest hurt in your life was getting a C or B for the first time, that’s not going to go down very well. Remember, to those who are given much, much is expected. So avoid writing something that would make a screener or interviewer think "that's it??"

"I'm Latin so I can teach everyone how to do da Salsa! And also how to make da Salsa!"

Does that work? It sounds cool.

 

[ChrisMack390]

There has to be something other than the fact that they'll accept you.




Yes. Not many students are musicians. You are making the classic pre-med mistake in thinking that everything about you has to be related to Medicine.
I have given up a career as a musician to pursue medicine instead. Does that qualify as "diversity"?

On one hand, not too many other applicants will be able to say that. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much anyone cares since its not really related to medicine....

@Goro I guess I am wondering how exactly one writes about that. It seems silly to just say I bring diversity because I used to tour around playing a bass guitar and other people haven't done that. I guess I could play it off as an exposure to lots of different areas and people?

 

[XxThaDoggxX]

I had a question regarding the "greatest obstacle" question (much like everyone else). Truly, my greatest obstacle has been seeing myself as a doctor due to my socioeconomic standing and upbringing. I'm considered SE01 disadvantaged on AMCAS, which isn't the lowest, but I haven't really had any good academic role models and haven't had the money to pursue many opportunities. I've been fortunate enough to get merit-based scholarships and grants so I could attend a private, college-prep high school and go to a decent college. Throughout my time at these places, it's been really discouraging to me to see my peers be able to take multiple MCAT prep classes, shadow their parents' multiple doctor friends, or be able to take part in some really interesting experiences, such as the Peace Corps (which you can't do unless you're not in debt). I've been fighting constantly the really negative thoughts that I'm somehow not cut out for medicine because I will never and have never been able to do these things that will ultimately help my application. However, after I graduated from college, I started working full-time with people of a much lower socioeconomic standing than myself, and I realized that my own experiences, even though they were not nearly as hard as these individual's experiences, could help me to better understand their lives and be sensitive to their circumstances, more so than individuals who have never had to face hardship. This has been a huge motivating factor for me to pursue medicine because I believe doctors should have the cultural competency to understand their patients' situations and how those can affect their health/wellbeing.

To me, this is the most genuine response I can think of to the "greatest obstacle" question, but I'm very scared of it coming off as me whining about not having money or playing the victim card. What does everyone else think?

I feel your pain

 

[emraldragon]

@Goro I guess I am wondering how exactly one writes about that. It seems silly to just say I bring diversity because I used to tour around playing a bass guitar and other people haven't done that. I guess I could play it off as an exposure to lots of different areas and people?

Really? I can't see anything that seems silly about that. Not only did you travel and experience different areas of the country, but you got up on stage in front of large groups of people and performed for them. Not everyone can do that. You were also part of a team of people (band) working together to create music. It seems to me if your experience is cool enough to use to pick up chicks in a bar, it can end up in your diversity essay. (Apologies for the assumption of you wanting to pick up chicks in a bar)

 

[ChrisMack390]

Really? I can't see anything that seems silly about that. Not only did you travel and experience different areas of the country, but you got up on stage in front of large groups of people and performed for them. Not everyone can do that. You were also part of a team of people (band) working together to create music. It seems to me if your experience is cool enough to use to pick up chicks in a bar, it can end up in your diversity essay. (Apologies for the assumption of you wanting to pick up chicks in a bar)

I about as bad at picking up chicks in a bar as I am at writing this personal statement and essays.

 

[Dr. Retractor]

I about as bad at picking up chicks in a bar as I am at writing this personal statement and essays.

Get help from professors/mentors. It might be difficult to do it, but your essays will be better.

 

[emraldragon]

I about as bad at picking up chicks in a bar as I am at writing this personal statement and essays.

We all are. Or at least we all feel like we are until we get some positive feedback from the adcoms in the form of IIs. It's hard to find that line where you are talking yourself up but still being humble about it without accidentally crossing the border into humblebrag territory. Chin up, you can do this.

PS. I thought girls were all about that bass?

 

[Buddy.the.Elf]

I had a question regarding the "greatest obstacle" question (much like everyone else). Truly, my greatest obstacle has been seeing myself as a doctor due to my socioeconomic standing and upbringing. I'm considered SE01 disadvantaged on AMCAS, which isn't the lowest, but I haven't really had any good academic role models and haven't had the money to pursue many opportunities. I've been fortunate enough to get merit-based scholarships and grants so I could attend a private, college-prep high school and go to a decent college. Throughout my time at these places, it's been really discouraging to me to see my peers be able to take multiple MCAT prep classes, shadow their parents' multiple doctor friends, or be able to take part in some really interesting experiences, such as the Peace Corps (which you can't do unless you're not in debt). I've been fighting constantly the really negative thoughts that I'm somehow not cut out for medicine because I will never and have never been able to do these things that will ultimately help my application. However, after I graduated from college, I started working full-time with people of a much lower socioeconomic standing than myself, and I realized that my own experiences, even though they were not nearly as hard as these individual's experiences, could help me to better understand their lives and be sensitive to their circumstances, more so than individuals who have never had to face hardship. This has been a huge motivating factor for me to pursue medicine because I believe doctors should have the cultural competency to understand their patients' situations and how those can affect their health/wellbeing.

To me, this is the most genuine response I can think of to the "greatest obstacle" question, but I'm very scared of it coming off as me whining about not having money or playing the victim card. What does everyone else think?

I come from a similar background. I talked extensively about it in my PS and my secondaries because it definitely shaped my experiences and who I am. I don't think it comes off as whining so long as you articulate it well enough. Also, make sure to not come across as bashing wealthy/well-off people or being jealous or bitter about it. Feel free to PM me for more specifics if you'd like.