All Branch Topic (ABT) Special Pay restructuring in 2017

[Slevin]

I'm looking to sign my contract ASAP. Hopefully before any bad things happen.

Just checked, can't sign any earlier than 90 days before start of contract


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[Slevin]

Navy info below:

I recently saw an email circulated from someone who was at a presentation by the special pays people. They said to take everything below as possible, but very unlikely to change:

Board certified pay: will be a flat rate of 6K per year paid monthly. No increase/decrease and although it will be paid together with another special pay called Incentive Pay they are not linked. (In other words you do not have to be board certified to get the old ASP/ISP. So GMOs will still get the 15K)

The new "Incentive Pay" is essentially your ASP + ISP + a few more thousand. Will be paid monthly.

The Retention Bonus will be for those who sign multi year and takes over for MSP. If your community has a higher ISP for those with multi year that ISP will get paid within the new IP. This will be a lump sum.

For those who have current multi year bonuses you will essentially be forced to convert the next time you want an ASP because there will no longer be an ASP and you cannot be paid under the old and new systems at the same time. So, yes technically you could keep your current contract but you will have to forgo 15K a year to do that. (What I saw did not say how they plan to make that work: eg could you cancel your multi year if wanted?)

If you have a CAC I think there is a brief on the Navy Medical Corps milSuite site.




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What about the VSP, is that staying or going away?

 

[backrow]

What about the VSP, is that staying or going away?

From what I saw VSP goes away in name but gets replaced by some set amount that doesn't vary by years of service.


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[pgg]

I hope someone got a really good fitrep bullet for all this change. Something positive should come of it, for somebody.

 

[HighPriest]

I hope someone got a really good fitrep bullet for all this change. Something positive should come of it, for somebody.

Confusing...probably unnecessary...ludicrously difficult to institute...questionably beneficial...even more difficult to undo than it was to do....

Well, you certainly hit all the important points this time, Colonel...I see a major promotion in your future, so long as you complete this 9 month training block regarding how to properly draft a memo...

 

[Neogenesis]

I just heard today (please take this with a HUGE grain of salt) from one of the admin types who is somewhat in the know, that this is sort "phase 1" in restructuring how the medical corps gets paid and that the ultimate goal is to tie at least a portion of our pay into production metrics. I don't see that being a very good thing at all if that's the end goal.

 

[Chonal Atresia]

What a mess. It just boggles my mind why any physician would willingly subject himself to this treatment by signing on past his ADSO.

The retirement "carrot" is only worth so much pain. You never get those 4 or 8 or 12 years back and they are usually prime-earning years.

 

[HighPriest]

I just heard today (please take this with a HUGE grain of salt) from one of the admin types who is somewhat in the know, that this is sort "phase 1" in restructuring how the medical corps gets paid and that the ultimate goal is to tie at least a portion of our pay into production metrics. I don't see that being a very good thing at all if that's the end goal.

Which would be just awesome, since the absolute biggest bottleneck to my being productive is people who aren't on the same pay structure (OR staff, nursing, ancillary support, etc.)

 

[narcusprince]

My god could you imagine your fitreps determining your bonus? Production based?? How in the heck will they determine what's productive in my field? Surgeons are slower then Mississippi mud on a hot summer day. The death of military medicine is looming.......

 

[Gastrapathy]

Any system that appears to reward productivity will be easily circumvented. Nothing to fear there. The overall intent will be to pay less. Fear that.

 

[Perrotfish]

What a mess. It just boggles my mind why any physician would willingly subject himself to this treatment by signing on past his ADSO.

The only thing that is definitely happening is that the current system, where you sign up every year and get a giant lump sum bonus, is being replaced by a system where you don't need to sign up every year and the bonus gets paid monthly. Its a small change, and will no doubt mean delays and errors the year they implement it, but its something everyone here has said would be a better system. Everything else is an internet rumor until it happens.

 

[HighPriest]

The only thing that is definitely happening is that the current system, where you sign up every year and get a giant lump sum bonus, is being replaced by a system where you don't need to sign up every year and the bonus gets paid monthly. Its a small change, and will no doubt mean delays and errors the year they implement it, but its something everyone here has said would be a better system. Everything else is an internet rumor until it happens.

This is a rumor until it happens.

 

[backrow]

This is a rumor until it happens.

I just looked at the ppt put out by Navy Special Pays that I was emailed. For Navy at least this is very likely happening this October.

Ask your special pays contact at your hospital to send you the PPT, they should have it. According to that slide set it must be implemented by Jan 2018 at the very latest.


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[HighPriest]

I just looked at the ppt put out by Navy Special Pays that I was emailed. For Navy at least this is very likely happening this October.

Ask your special pays contact at your hospital to send you the PPT, they should have it. According to that slide set it must be implemented by Jan 2018 at the very latest.


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Yeah, I did. I got the information I had posted earlier which was not exclusive of, but fairly different from what those in the Navy are getting. Now, I whole-heartedly chalk this up to most people in the Army having their head up their @$$. I'm far more likely to believe what you're getting from the Navy.
But this is the military. Nothing is anything until it has already happened. I can't tell you how many times I've been guaranteed something that then evaporates or becomes some kind of mutant horror version of what it was supposed to be.
And I have come to always expect to be disappointed. So I will believe it when I see it.

It is also possible I'll never see it, because we all known suspense dates mean jack and $#!T, and jack never joined.

 

[Chonal Atresia]

Yeah, I did. I got the information I had posted earlier which was not exclusive of, but fairly different from what those in the Navy are getting. Now, I whole-heartedly chalk this up to most people in the Army having their head up their @$$. I'm far more likely to believe what you're getting from the Navy.
But this is the military. Nothing is anything until it has already happened. I can't tell you how many times I've been guaranteed something that then evaporates or becomes some kind of mutant horror version of what it was supposed to be.
And I have come to always expect to be disappointed. So I will believe it when I see it.

It is also possible I'll never see it, because we all known suspense dates mean jack and $#!T, and jack never joined.

No worries, HighPriest. Don't you ETS within a year? You will be long gone from this joke of an organization when the special pay change comes to pass. 5K here, 10K will not matter nearly as much in 1-2 years. You will actually be compensated commiserate your ability and work ethic. Imagine that?

 

[HighPriest]

No worries, HighPriest. Don't you ETS within a year? You will be long gone from this joke of an organization when the special pay change comes to pass. 5K here, 10K will not matter nearly as much in 1-2 years. You will actually be compensated commiserate your ability and work ethic. Imagine that?

It's a dream within a dream. I think I'm the victim of inception.

 

[Neogenesis]

I emailed the Army AMEDD Special Pay Branch contact and asked for a breakdown of the coming changes. The response I received was as follows

"Sir, this information is currently not available. Your local supporting HRO will be receiving any special pay updates once released"

 

[HighPriest]

Well, there you go. That clears it up.

 

[Neogenesis]

Well, there you go. That clears it up.

Exactly. Let me see, there is a pending major overhaul in the way our special pays are going to be handled that is going to take effect in 3 mos and the liason for special pays doesn't have that information. WTF

 

[HighPriest]

You act like this is a big deal. Ask around HRC, it's not a big deal there at all. You're making mountains out of molehills.

 

[sdt672002]

Holy Crap!! I just finished my Civilian residency for Anesthesia and I have basically been detached from the military since COT, which was during my first and second year of medical school. As I try to translate all of this special pay and contract jargon I am only getting more more stressed out! I looked through the MyPers website and still am left extremely ignorant about this entire process. When and where do I find these contracts to sign for special pay etc...

 

[psychbender]

You'll sign for your ASP (the July $15k bonus) when you report to your unit. Don't worry if you don't inprocess until later, you can still get it on a 1 July 2016 - 30 June 2017 contract. Ordinarily, you would sign your specialty bonus contract in the fall (for a 1 Oct - 30 Sept obligation). However, with this new pay structure, we well have to wait and see. I just received my last ASP, and will not sign for the usual specialty bonus this fall, so I can still get out next summer.

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[DD214_DOC]

Has anyone found out what is going to happen with our ISP this FY? I think we are now in the 90-day window to sign that contract ... but I'm not sure what happens next.

 

[backrow]

Has anyone found out what is going to happen with our ISP this FY? I think we are now in the 90-day window to sign that contract ... but I'm not sure what happens next.

You can't sign the contract until the special pays notice comes out. For Navy this has notoriously been late. My most recent info says this years will be late for Navy again. Not sure if other branches are switching to the new pay plans this year as well, but for Navy you will switch to the new plan this October of you are signing a new ISP (to be consolidated with other pays and renamed IP)


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[Neogenesis]

Yeah. I went to HRD yesterday and asked to sign my fall bonus because we were in the 90 days and the lady seemed confused that it wouldn't let her generate a contract (been working with her for the past 3 years and she's really good with this stuff, so not you're typical GS employee). Anyway, she said she'd look into it and get back with me, so she made some phone calls and basically was told that "they are in the processing of upgrading everything" and that it will be available when that's done. So I guess we just wait and see at this point.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Yeah. I went to HRD yesterday and asked to sign my fall bonus because we were in the 90 days and the lady seemed confused that it wouldn't let her generate a contract (been working with her for the past 3 years and she's really good with this stuff, so not you're typical GS employee). Anyway, she said she'd look into it and get back with me, so she made some phone calls and basically was told that "they are in the processing of upgrading everything" and that it will be available when that's done. So I guess we just wait and see at this point.

Thanks. I asked the chief of that section about it yesterday, and she knew about as much as I did.

So, what do you guys suppose the real agenda behind the change is? The Army is also completely doing away with my MOS starting FY17 as well. Again, not sure why...

 

[pgg]

Hopefully Nov/Dec pay dates for ISP won't be the norm again. Glad I realigned to July 1 last year.

A mess.

 

[Gastrapathy]

It's July. Bet this is sorted out by Jan with some bonuses crossing the tax year again.

 

[didja]

Hopefully Nov/Dec pay dates for ISP won't be the norm again. Glad I realigned to July 1 last year.

A mess.

Yep, got my bonuses on 1 July, glad I won't need to worry about this for a while.

I'm stuck signing 2 year or less contracts when my current 4 year MSP expires in 2018 (since I refuse to move) so I wonder if this might help me versus the old system (i.e., I could see the rampant incompetence of military medicine lead to similar monthly bonuses regardless of length of commitment ).

 

[backrow]

So, what do you guys suppose the real agenda behind the change is? The Army is also completely doing away with my MOS starting FY17 as well. Again, not sure why...

The briefs I saw point the finger at the National Defense Authorization Act of 2008 which supposedly mandated the consolidation of all bonuses/special pays (not just medicine but across the Service) with an implement no later than date of Jan 2018.


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[backrow]

Yep, got my bonuses on 1 July, glad I won't need to worry about this for a while.

I'm stuck signing 2 year or less contracts when my current 4 year MSP expires in 2018 (since I refuse to move) so I wonder if this might help me versus the old system (i.e., I could see the rampant incompetence of military medicine lead to similar monthly bonuses regardless of length of commitment ).

You get a year reprieve

I'm confused though: What does moving have to do with a multi year bonus? Unless you are using it as an "they might try to make me move if I sign a longer commitment"


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[didja]

You get a year reprieve

I'm confused though: What does moving have to do with a multi year bonus? Unless you are using it as an "they might try to make me move if I sign a longer commitment"


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As I understand it, PCS moves extend you by 24 months but they can't force you to extend if you owe less than 24 months from your payback or MSP obligations. As long as you are willing to walk away (even at 16, 17, 18 or 19 years), by signing 2 or 1 year extensions (if you are O-6 you have even less right to refuse a PCS) you can refuse PCS assignments as long as you are obligated to the military for less than 2 years.

 

[backrow]

As I understand it, PCS moves extend you by 24 months but they can't force you to extend if you owe less than 24 months from your payback or MSP obligations. As long as you are willing to walk away (even at 16, 17, 18 or 19 years), by signing 2 or 1 year extensions (if you are O-6 you have even less right to refuse a PCS) you can refuse PCS assignments as long as you are obligated to the military for less than 2 years.

Yes, you are correct that CONUS to CONUS moves require 24 months on station. I would love to see someone try this though. Sure, you'd get away with it the first time but the next you'd probably be on the first train to Ft nowheresville that has no capability of supporting you.

There is nothing that says they can't force you to PCS with one year left as well. They will just simply "waive" their own requirement for time on station when it is convenient to them.


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[didja]

Yes, you are correct that CONUS to CONUS moves require 24 months on station. I would love to see someone try this though. Sure, you'd get away with it the first time but the next you'd probably be on the first train to Ft nowheresville that has no capability of supporting you.

There is nothing that says they can't force you to PCS with one year left as well. They will just simply "waive" their own requirement for time on station when it is convenient to them.


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I've seen this done personally once -- a doc got out at 19 because he wasn't willing to push paper for 2 years at a lousy base and I've heard of many others who refused an assignment that would extend their commitment. Of course the doc I know promptly joined the reserves and retired from the reserves within a few months so the decision basically cost him his retirement pay from his late 40s until he turns 60. I'll be at 17 when my 4 year MSP expires (I'm July to July so theoretically I just made it through my high risk move period). If I get orders in the next couple years I'll politely decline and walk at 17 with no regrets. I've gotten plenty of great training from the military and my family has done well with all of our prior moves (and especially our current assignment near family). I've also been honored to serve our service members and when all is said and done tax payers will have gotten a great deal out of my service. In that case I might give one of the other services a call and see if they'd offer me a plum spot for a 3 year MSP or I'll check out the reserves or VA to salvage something out of my 17 years.

 

[backrow]

Yeah as long as you are willing to walk you can do it! (Which you actually mentioned but I glossed over)


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[pgg]

As far as I can tell, the best way for a physician to homestead at one location for an extended period is to have the hospital want that physician to stay. Good relationships with your department, hospital admin, and specialty leader are what get people in one place for years and years. Or collaterals that need continuity, like GME positions.

Sometimes being excellent is enough ... I leave it to the reader to more precisely define "excellent" in terms of some ratio of clinical skill : willingness and ability to play the admin game.


Playing MSP negotiation hardball with PCS orders might work out sometimes, but ain't no way I'd sign any extension unless I could endure a tour at a weather station above the Arctic circle.

IMO if you want to stay someplace, the best approach is (1) don't be bad clinically, (2) don't make enemies, and (3) try to find some tolerable collateral that the hospital needs to be done well and then do it well.

 

[Gastrapathy]

I saw negotiation hardball work for a post-20 year O6 but he was willing to extend a year at a time and never take a MSP.

Being excellent has not protected a couple of truly excellent GI docs recently. See both the DH and the President of the Medical Staff at Bethesda (I know I know, its WR) getting yanked involuntarily out of there in the past couple years.

 

[deuist]

As I understand it, PCS moves extend you by 24 months but they can't force you to extend if you owe less than 24 months from your payback or MSP obligations. As long as you are willing to walk away (even at 16, 17, 18 or 19 years), by signing 2 or 1 year extensions (if you are O-6 you have even less right to refuse a PCS) you can refuse PCS assignments as long as you are obligated to the military for less than 2 years.

A co-worker did this all the way until his retirement. Every year he told our specialty consultant that he was getting out of the military – and then a few months later he would recant and sign a one-year extension (ASP/ISP). He never took the multiyear specialty bonus. As a result, he managed to stay at the same location for over a decade. The lack of moving and taking leadership positions meant that he can never be promoted to O6, but he was okay with that.

 

[haujun]

A co-worker did this all the way until this retirement. Every year he told our specialty consultant that he was getting out of the military – and then a few months later he would recant and sign a one-year extension (ASP/ISP). He never took the multiyear specialty bonus. As a result, he managed to stay at the same location for over a decade. The lack of moving and taking leadership positions meant that he can never be promoted to O6, but he was okay with that.

That really does not make sense to me. If you do not get promoted and you decide to stay in that can only mean that you are either too lazy or incompetent to leave the military and ok about receiving military retirement as O-5 eventually. I think I would be pissed off if I worked hard to get paid 1/3-1/2 compared to civilian doctor and do NOT even get promoted on time. I say more military doctors who worked hard, generate high RVUs should be picked up for below the zone...

 

[Gastrapathy]

Accepting O5 as a terminal rank is key to a happy last decade in the .mil.

 

[didja]

Yep, haujun will need to take my word for it but in my own case I'm not "too lazy or incompetent to leave the military." I'll be moving to an academic position when I separate (or hopefully retire ) and money isn't the end all and be all for everyone.

The problem with getting promoted to O-6 is the high likelihood of getting moved "to a position befitting your new rank". There are a few of us who are fortunate to have great .mil careers (usually involves academic assignments at MEDCENs and homesteading it to have those great careers though and passing up O-6, or at least not seeking it out, is a big part of that).

 

[WernickeDO]

There are a few of us who are fortunate to have great .mil careers (usually involves academic assignments at MEDCENs and homesteading it to have those great careers though and passing up O-6, or at least not seeking it out, is a big part of that).

Ahhhh...the good old days. If the Army still did business like this I would consider staying in.

 

[didja]

Ahhhh...the good old days. If the Army still did business like this I would consider staying in.

It is too bad that it isn't this way in the army. I'm able to practice a very high level of medicine in the .mil (I'm subspecialized enough and take care of sick enough patients that my treatments aren't difficult to justify). My civilian colleagues at conferences are usually jealous of my resources actually.

I know that many sdn military medicine posters resent homesteaded subspecialists but there really aren't many assignments where I could practice (again, this is why I don't want an O-6 job).

Sorry for sidetracking the specialty pays post with homesteading strategies by the way.

 

[HighPriest]

It is too bad that it isn't this way in the army. I'm able to practice a very high level of medicine in the .mil (I'm subspecialized enough and take care of sick enough patients that my treatments aren't difficult to justify). My civilian colleagues at conferences are usually jealous of my resources actually.

I know that many sdn military medicine posters resent homesteaded subspecialists but there really aren't many assignments where I could practice (again, this is why I don't want an O-6 job).

Sorry for sidetracking the specialty pays post with homesteading strategies by the way.

I've always had mixed feelings in regards to subspecialty homesteading, leaning towards being ok with it. On one hand, it means that there is absolutely zero chance of getting to a major MEDCEN which for me means skill rot. On the other hand, from a continuity of care standpoint and from a GME standpoint it makes perfect sense, and if you are that guy then it's great for your skills.

However, the word from our consultant is that homesteading is going away completely. The only exceptions will be for ACGME/GME purposes. He emphasized that by sending a surgical oncologist from a MEDCEN to Fairbanks, AK against all protests.

I'll admit that even at the places I have practiced I have access to a lot of equipment and technology that many of my civilian counterparts don't have due to cost. However, if I can't use them because my facility can't support the procedure, it's a moot point.

It's just as it has been stated many times on the forum: maybe you have a great career, and maybe it's crap. If you' get the fellowship you want and the station you want then you're going to be happy. If not, then maybe you'll be happy if being an officer is enough for you. But the Army is slowly changing that as well, and getting rid of homesteading and making promotions harder to do as a clinician are contributing factors.

 

[didja]

I've always had mixed feelings in regards to subspecialty homesteading, leaning towards being ok with it. On one hand, it means that there is absolutely zero chance of getting to a major MEDCEN which for me means skill rot. On the other hand, from a continuity of care standpoint and from a GME standpoint it makes perfect sense, and if you are that guy then it's great for your skills.

However, the word from our consultant is that homesteading is going away completely. The only exceptions will be for ACGME/GME purposes. He emphasized that by sending a surgical oncologist from a MEDCEN to Fairbanks, AK against all protests.

I'll admit that even at the places I have practiced I have access to a lot of equipment and technology that many of my civilian counterparts don't have due to cost. However, if I can't use them because my facility can't support the procedure, it's a moot point.

It's just as it has been stated many times on the forum: maybe you have a great career, and maybe it's crap. If you' get the fellowship you want and the station you want then you're going to be happy. If not, then maybe you'll be happy if being an officer is enough for you. But the Army is slowly changing that as well, and getting rid of homesteading and making promotions harder to do as a clinician are contributing factors.

Yep, don't join the Army, I think there is clear concensus on that. As a tax payer I'm offended that a surgical oncologist would be sent to AK. That's a waste of my tax dollars.

 

[HighPriest]

No $#!T, eh? If wasting resources was the same as making money, the Army wouldn't need taxpayer dollars.

 

[Neogenesis]

Anyone hear any updates on any of this? Still can't sign for Oct Bonus and absolutely no word on what is going to happen come 1 Oct.

 

[Apollyon]

but ain't no way I'd sign any extension unless I could endure a tour at a weather station above the Arctic circle.

CPT Stillman, is that you?

 

[Gastrapathy]

Sections 9/10 are the relevant instruction http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/600013p.pdf

Notable for a 2018 deadline. No monetary numbers.

 

[usma05]

So, the only people who have said this is definitely happening Oct 1, 2016 are fellow physicians at different duty stations than mine. When I attended CCC in Jan the CISPBO (sp?), who is the Medical Corps Specific Branch Proponent Officer and also the guy sending out the monthly newsletters on MG Jones behalf, seem to indicate this would not happen this year. My local person I deal with pay/contracts has no idea, and I've communicated with AMEDD Special Pay Branch with the OTSG and the below was sent back to me (it seems to suggest that they are still awaiting DoD guidance):

Sir this is the only guidance we can provide at this time.

We have currently restricted the MODS special pay module from processing any special pay contracts effective 1 Oct 2016 or later pending DoD guidance on the new special pay program. Extract below from Home page--
+++++
NEW Special Pay Program News!
Published By: Craig Buss on 6/13/2016 9:45 AM

Between 1 October 2016 - 31 December 2017, all Corps and specialties will transfer to the new Consolidation of Special Pay (CSP) program, signified by Health Professions Officer (HPO) Board Certification Pay (HPOBCP), Incentive Pay (HPOIP), and Retention Bonus (HPORB)-- the same types of pay as the Veterinarians, PAs, Psychologist, Social Workers, and General Dentists are currently receiving.

Contracts and transactions will be processed as normal from June thru September 2016; however, preparing contracts 90-days in advance for 1 Oct 16 or later (FY17) WILL NOT be available on MODS until the system is updated with the new CSP HPO contract elements

To me, it suggests a possibility where the system is updated to reflect the future roll0ut of new system, not the actual implementation of it....but who really knows.