All Branch Topic (ABT) Special Pay restructuring in 2017

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Perrotfish said:
If you can sign for the bonus, but don't sign for it by 30OCT, you just miss your bonus for that year. There is only a 3 month window to sign. That being said it sounds like no one in the navy can sign right now, so I guess its a non-issue.
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If the NavAdmin hasn't been released (which it hasn't) then you can't sign for anything. You don't miss it for the year even if you miss the NavAdmin, but it would shift your obligation month and you wouldn't get the pay back dated to October. Under the new system the obligation month shift would essentially be a non-issue since you no longer have to sign every year.

When the NavAdmin runs late (as usual) then the pay gets paid as if you still signed in October (although under the old system there were tax issues if paid in the following calendar year.)

If you ever have any concerns that your particular special pays person is missing the boat then go to the BUMED special pays website and you can either read all the up to date info there or you can email the special pays person for your last name at BUMED.


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Perrotfish said:
So my command's pay person is still saying all requests for ISP are on hold, and he will not submit any paperwork for ISP. I am getting worried that may entire command is going to miss the window to sign for this. Is there anyone here Navy has received ISP? If so could you please PM me the name of your pay person, so that I can get them in touch with my pay person to sort this out? Or is it only Army that has made this work so far?
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Air Force ISP went through this year with no issues. Ironically, this was the first time my ISP has ever been paid on 01OCT. Previously, it took weeks to process. The Air Force special pay division put out guidance in early September to submit similar to previous FY applications.
 
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155HE said:
Just finished residency a few months ago. I'm Navy. An Army coresident in my class received his ISP in his account as a lump sum. Another classmate who is Army did not.

I do not understand how such dysfunction when it comes to our pay is tolerated. Unclear as to why pay is left to the separate services. I definitely will be emailing Navy BUMED special pays to politely query why they haven't gotten their act together with our special pay NAVADMIN. And why have they taken so long to figure out the consolidated pay plan when they have had 8 years (2 presidential terms) to get their **** together since NDAA 2008 was passed.

IHTFP.
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Saw this while browsing random SDN pages this evening.
Navy Special Pays can't act until DOD puts out their directive, and DOD couldn't do anything until the funds were appropriated. I was told 2015 back when I first came on active duty in 2011 - expected that it would take longer and it certainly did, but that's not on the folks at the Specisl Pays office.

I've had plenty of pay problems over the years, but the Special Pays office has always been able to work out whatever issue I had or provide me with what I needed to fix the issue.


Curious how this new pay plan affects the MC. looking at the numbers I think I'll be getting roughly the same amount I would under the legacy plan. Glad this will be in effect by the time I finish residency in 2020 so that I'll be able to make up the shortfall from my 4-year RB ending that year.
 
Now no NAVADMIN until Thanksgiving week at the earliest. Stellar. Wonder how well the rest of the Navy would react if >$20K of their annual pay was being withheld.
 
I won't be surprised if an IG complaint is filed against the navy. As air Force and army paid their people the old ISp amounts full bonus. And the Navy is trying to deviate by paying the bonuses monthly hence retaining the interest. And deviating from the dod funding instructions. I imagine the navy is fighting to start the new system and likely getting pushback. And not paying their people.
 
narcusprince said:
I won't be surprised if an IG complaint is filed against the navy. As air Force and army paid their people the old ISp amounts full bonus. And the Navy is trying to deviate by paying the bonuses monthly hence retaining the interest. And deviating from the dod funding instructions. I imagine the navy is fighting to start the new system and likely getting pushback. And not paying their people.
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It's not like the Army and AF actually implimentes their plan on time, they just paid bonuses under their old plan and ignored the new one they were ordered to implement. The worst case scenario for them is they start the new pay plan halfway through the fiscal year and try to recoup part of the bonuses. Which you know will already be spent.
 
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Perrot I bet the army and Air Force implement the system fy18. Not sure if you know recoupment is a bad political word.
 
The Navy is wrought with tradition and formality. And boasts on teamwork and loyalty. But nothing makes you feel less valued then not being paid what you are owed. The navy expects your care to be on time and always ready. Yet they do not do the same for the individual. My consent to join was not informed please read up on what it's like to serve. Let's be real pay me...
 
So the official pay plan finally came out, though we still can't apply for it. All in all this looks like a pretty significant pay raise for me. 7K per year. Basically they eliminated the VSP boost that normally happens at the 6 year mark and just pay everyone at the 6-8 year level. So good for junior guys and neutral for pretty mucheveryone else. Also GMOs, residents, and interns definitely get the same bonuses as before.
 
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Perrotfish said:
So the official pay plan finally came out, though we still can't apply for it. All in all this looks like a pretty significant pay raise for me. 7K per year. Basically they eliminated the VSP boost that normally happens at the 6 year mark and just pay everyone at the 6-8 year level. So good for junior guys and neutral for pretty mucheveryone else. Also GMOs, residents, and interns definitely get the same bonuses as before.
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Is it posted somewhere?

I saw a PowerPoint with it a few month ago. Is it that that's floating around?
 
When we (finally) sign for the new pay plan, any idea if it's retroactive to October? (Are we going to be back paid what we currently haven't gotten?)
 
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Perrotfish said:
So the official pay plan finally came out, though we still can't apply for it. All in all this looks like a pretty significant pay raise for me. 7K per year. Basically they eliminated the VSP boost that normally happens at the 6 year mark and just pay everyone at the 6-8 year level. So good for junior guys and neutral for pretty mucheveryone else. Also GMOs, residents, and interns definitely get the same bonuses as before.
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Can you post the pay plan? It's not on the bumed special pay site.
 
Perrotfish said:
So the official pay plan finally came out, though we still can't apply for it. All in all this looks like a pretty significant pay raise for me. 7K per year. Basically they eliminated the VSP boost that normally happens at the 6 year mark and just pay everyone at the 6-8 year level. So good for junior guys and neutral for pretty mucheveryone else. Also GMOs, residents, and interns definitely get the same bonuses as before.
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This for the Army or navy?
 
Perrotfish said:
Basically they eliminated the VSP boost that normally happens at the 6 year mark and just pay everyone at the 6-8 year level. So good for junior guys and neutral for pretty mucheveryone else. Also GMOs, residents, and interns definitely get the same bonuses as before.
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Not completely correct. The new plan is a win for those that go straight through in training and those in specialties that get board certified before graduating residency. It is a loss for those who go do a GMO tour and return for residencies that are longer than 2 more years (the difference could be several thousand dollars, upwards of 10-14k for some scenarios).

If you finish residency and get board certified prior to 6 years of creditable service you are a "winner" in this plan.

If you are already done with residency & board certified this is really not much of a change. For 2 separate groups of 2 years you will lose about $40/month; however, you no longer will lose out on your specialty bonus that last year of service which more than makes up for that (in most cases).

The official Navy guidance is not out yet. The Asst Sec Defense memo is out; however, the Navy could deviate (unlikely). For navy once it comes out it will be retroactive to October.


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backrow said:
Not completely correct. The new plan is a win for those that go straight through in training and those in specialties that get board certified before graduating residency. It is a loss for those who go do a GMO tour and return for residencies that are longer than 2 more years (the difference could be several thousand dollars, upwards of 10-14k for some scenarios).

If you finish residency and get board certified prior to 6 years of creditable service you are a "winner" in this plan.

If you are already done with residency & board certified this is really not much of a change. For 2 separate groups of 2 years you will lose about $40/month; however, you no longer will lose out on your specialty bonus that last year of service which more than makes up for that (in most cases).

The official Navy guidance is not out yet. The Asst Sec Defense memo is out; however, the Navy could deviate (unlikely). For navy once it comes out it will be retroactive to October.

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Can you lay out how a physician could lose 10K with this plan? I believe you but I'm not seeing it.

Of course the real way we all win with this is by getting paid our ISP in the last year of our obligations.
 
Perrotfish said:
Of course the real way we all win with this is by getting paid our ISP in the last year of our obligations.
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That actually is the biggest benefit. When I cranked through the numbers (just out of curiosity), I ended up with almost exactly the same pay with the new system as I'm currently making. But, of course, I didn't get my ISP this year and that bit a little.
 
Perrotfish said:
Can you lay out how a physician could lose 10K with this plan? I believe you but I'm not seeing it.

Of course the real way we all win with this is by getting paid our ISP in the last year of our obligations.
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Let's take radiologist who does flight surgery (radiology isn't board certified(BC) until about 18mos after graduation)
Intern year: wash, it's the same
GMO years (2-4): wash, it's the same 20k

Old System:
Year 5(PGY2): $5,000
Year 6(PGY3): $12,000
Year 7(PGY4): $12,000
Year 8 (1st year staff, not BC): $11,500 [not putting in the specialty bonus as it's the same]
Year 9 (4mos not BC): $3,833 [after this point as long as you get BC it's essentially equal between the systems]

Total pay: $44,333

New System:
Year 5(PGY2): $8,000
Year 6(PGY3): $8,000
Year 7(PGY4): $8,000
Year 8(1st year staff, not BC): $8,000 [in the new system the no longer labeled VSP is essentially 8k a year]
Year 9(4mos not BC): $2,668

Total Pay: $34,668

The issue for these types of folks is the "penalty" for not being Board Certified is substantially higher than in the old system. In the old system VSP stayed fairly high through about 14 years of creditible service which gave people who did GMO tours and then residencies which don't get board certified until 1-2 years after residency (basically all surgical specialties, radiology as of ~3 years ago, derm, EM, etc) a chance to get board certified before it really hit the wallet. Now the difference between someone who goes straight through in training and someone who doesn't OR someone who does a residency that gets Board Certified before/at graduation can be substantial.

And completely agree with your last statement. Take that same radiologist: although they lost out on 10k up front they don't have to potentially take a 36k paycut their last year if they wanted to separate 3 months early.
 
HighPriest said:
That actually is the biggest benefit. When I cranked through the numbers (just out of curiosity), I ended up with almost exactly the same pay with the new system as I'm currently making. But, of course, I didn't get my ISP this year and that bit a little.
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Yep, for those who are already Board Certified the pay change is pretty much nil. In years 6-8 and 10-12 you will lose about $40 a month for those years, in all the others you gain $0.01 a month until hitting 22 when it goes up ~$80/month in the new system.
 
I assume the pay will be the same across all three services? Has any service specific guidance been announced? I heard that Army didn't use the new system this past year, but I'm still a resident so am kind of out of the loop on this sort of thing.
 
Mace1370 said:
I assume the pay will be the same across all three services? Has any service specific guidance been announced? I heard that Army didn't use the new system this past year, but I'm still a resident so am kind of out of the loop on this sort of thing.
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To the best of my knowledge only the Navy has released guidance concerning their new pay rates.
 
I wonder if the navy has to have secnav approval to actually pay their folks using the new plan. Since the air Force and army used the old plan.
 
Perrotfish said:
To the best of my knowledge only the Navy has released guidance concerning their new pay rates.
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I haven't seen anything from the Navy yet. At last the special pays people were saying end of November. It will come out in a NavAdmin message.

The only thing I've seen out in hard copy is the memo from the Asst Secretary of Defense addressed to the Services. Each service will then take that memo and make their own rules, although they will almost certainly follow exactly what the memo already says.

The Army and Air Force decided not to convert to the new pay plan this year, but should have to convert by 2018.


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DrMetal said:
What do you guys considered to be the yearly timeframe of your special pay? Is it the academic year (July 1 to June 30)? The calendar year? Or the fiscal year? Or just whatever time period you see fit/applicable?
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What do you mean?

Historically, ASP could be paid at any time you were eligible, for a 1-year period. Most of us took it July 1 - June 30, since that lined up with finishing training.

Historically, ISP had to be taken October 1 - September 30 (the fiscal year) because the rule was, you weren't eligible until the fiscal year after you finished initial residency training. This had some lousy consequences, like having to choose between extending your service obligation 3 months in your last year, or choosing not to take it at all.

Historically, MSP was usually taken October 1 - September 30. It was tied to ISP and so it was typically lined up with the fiscal year for the same reason. There were options for realigning it to July 1 - June 30 once your initial ADSO was up, and some people did.


Now that everything's monthly, none of that matters.
 
pgg said:
What do you mean?

Historically, ASP could be paid at any time you were eligible, for a 1-year period. Most of us took it July 1 - June 30, since that lined up with finishing training.

Historically, ISP had to be taken October 1 - September 30 (the fiscal year) because the rule was, you weren't eligible until the fiscal year after you finished initial residency training. This had some lousy consequences, like having to choose between extending your service obligation 3 months in your last year, or choosing not to take it at all.

Historically, MSP was usually taken October 1 - September 30. It was tied to ISP and so it was typically lined up with the fiscal year for the same reason. There were options for realigning it to July 1 - June 30 once your initial ADSO was up, and some people did.


Now that everything's monthly, none of that matters.
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Got it thanks. So I got ASP under the old plan, for the time period 01JUL2016-30JUN2017. Would I then use the latest NAVADMIN (the one presumably coming out tomorrow) for the following year (01JUL2017-30JUN2018)?
 
DrMetal said:
Got it thanks. So I got ASP under the old plan, for the time period 01JUL2016-30JUN2017. Would I then use the latest NAVADMIN (the one presumably coming out tomorrow) for the following year (01JUL2017-30JUN2018)?
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I don't think we're clear on this, yet. Hopefully they won't ask for the ASP back.
 
DrMetal said:
Got it thanks. So I got ASP under the old plan, for the time period 01JUL2016-30JUN2017. Would I then use the latest NAVADMIN (the one presumably coming out tomorrow) for the following year (01JUL2017-30JUN2018)?
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My understanding was the first year of this plan that the total monthly payment would be prorated (so if you took the ASP in July of this year you would get a monthly payment less what that amount was). Guess we'll find out Monday.
 
SeminoleFan3 said:
My understanding was the first year of this plan that the total monthly payment would be prorated (so if you took the ASP in July of this year you would get a monthly payment less what that amount was). Guess we'll find out Monday.
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Yes, that was the plan according to all the briefs I received.


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http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/messages/Documents/NAVADMINS/NAV2016/NAV16262.txt


So, on this web page:
http://www.med.navy.mil/bumed/Special_Pay/Pages/default.aspx
what exactly is the instruction, that spells out how the new consolidated pay will be calculated? (we've seen the powerpoint....but a ppt is never official.....shouldn't there be a new instruction, a new OPNAV).

Shouldn't there be a document, 'FY17 MC-DC Special Pay Implementation Guidance ', like there was in FY15 and FY16?
 
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DrMetal said:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/messages/Documents/NAVADMINS/NAV2016/NAV16262.txt


So, on this web page:
http://www.med.navy.mil/bumed/Special_Pay/Pages/default.aspx
what exactly is the instruction, that spells out how the new consolidated pay will be calculated? (we've seen the powerpoint....but a ppt is never official.....shouldn't there be a new instruction, a new OPNAV).

Shouldn't there be a document, 'FY17 MC-DC Special Pay Implementation Guidance ', like there was in FY15 and FY16?
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It usually follows the message within a few days.
 
DrMetal said:
http://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/reference/messages/Documents/NAVADMINS/NAV2016/NAV16262.txt


So, on this web page:
http://www.med.navy.mil/bumed/Special_Pay/Pages/default.aspx
what exactly is the instruction, that spells out how the new consolidated pay will be calculated? (we've seen the powerpoint....but a ppt is never official.....shouldn't there be a new instruction, a new OPNAV).

Shouldn't there be a document, 'FY17 MC-DC Special Pay Implementation Guidance ', like there was in FY15 and FY16?
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It looks like the message references 4 documents (A-D), but not sure where those are.
 
SeminoleFan3 said:
It looks like the message references 4 documents (A-D), but not sure where those are.
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REF/A/LTR/ASD/27SEP16/NOTAL// <-------------is this the letter that told us change was a coming? Still, that's not an official document.
REF/B/DOC/DOD/30DEC15// <-----from 2015? who cares
REF/C/DOC/USC/28JAN08// <-----from 2008? who really cares?
REF/D/DOC/OPNAV/28DEC05// <------------from 2005. This is the main instruction. It needs to be changed before anything can be implemented. I was expecting a new OPNAV.

....These F-*****!
 
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DrMetal said:
REF/A/LTR/ASD/27SEP16/NOTAL// <-------------is this the letter that told us change was a coming? Still, that's not an official document.
REF/B/DOC/DOD/30DEC15// <-----from 2015? who cares
REF/C/DOC/USC/28JAN08// <-----from 2008? who really cares?
REF/D/DOC/OPNAV/28DEC05// <------------from 2005. This is the main instruction. It needs to be changed before anything can be implemented. I was expecting a new OPNAV.

....These F-*****!
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Agreed. It's like nothing was new. But says they can start being processed?! Makes no sense.
 
Edit: ref A is the ASD memo I mention below. /edit.

You can put your pitchforks away.....there is an Asst Secretary of Defense memo to all the Services that outlines all the new changes. It came out probably about 4-6 weeks ago. Unfortunately I don't have a copy on me right now.

Essentially the Navy had to wait for that to route their own policy.

All of the stuff on the special pays website is old. Given they have told people to prepare the contracts this week for anticipated signature next week I'd venture to say the info will be updated soon on that site. Wouldn't surprise me if they haven't already forwarded it to the special pays people at the MTFs.


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I have seen the table with the cash sums with my command special pays person. No net change for me. Now pay me!
 
I will say that the delayed bonus is a good financial stress test. If a 2 month delay in your bonus caused real stress to you, you failed and need to sign up for Financial Peace University, read WCI's book and get your spending in check.
 
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Gastrapathy said:
I will say that the delayed bonus is a good financial stress test. If a 2 month delay in your bonus caused real stress to you, you failed and need to sign up for Financial Peace University, read WCI's book and get your spending in check.
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It never caused me any stress. I just found it disingenuous that the navy expects you to be on time while delaying your money.
 
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Sad to see quality physicians who have sacrificed family and finances for their country continue to be treated like s$&@. There is no excuse for it no matter how government beaurocrats spin it.

Since leaving the military 2.5 years ago I have not been paid late once. My salary this year will be 4x what it was my last year on active duty. You have to work harder in civilian practice but you are rewarded for your effort.

I have counseled multiple med students to avoid the HPSP "scholarship." To my knowledge, none have taken the bait from recruiters. IMO, the only way to change all this nonsense is for more of those physicians eligible to leave at the end of their initial ADSO to do so. More importantly, bring back the lean years of HPSP from 10 years ago - hit 'em where hurts in recruiting.
 
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I'm not sure a higher percentage could leave than do already. Most of the people who stay are 13 years plus before the end of their obligation. They want us to quit. It's not like they really care about quality.
 
Chonal Atresia said:
More importantly, bring back the lean years of HPSP from 10 years ago - hit 'em where hurts in recruiting.
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I don't think anything short of another big, long war would do that. It wasn't until Iraq got ugly and the news was talking about 12 and 18 month Army deployments that HPSP didn't fill.

Today, HPSP pays a lot more more, medical schools cost a lot more, and student loan interest rates are a lot higher. HPSP is full and it's going to stay full. We can post forever about the maybes and ifs of military GME but premeds are looking at 4 years of tuition. If they're thinking ahead to residency, they're expecting to be the same kind of rockstar med student as they are rockstar undergrads and thus have their pick of anything anywhere. The perils of a nurse CO, number of people running the clinic front desk, even an inexcusable 2+ month delay in getting paid is filtered through their perception of the massive wealth and riches of a doctor's paycheck ...

Remember, 60% of these people would eat a poop hot dog just to get into medical school, and 100% are telling adcoms they want to to do primary care in underserved communities, and 90% are telling their friends (who still have Bernie Sanders bumper stickers on their cars/bicycles) that they'd be OK making $100K as attendings because that's plenty to live on.

I'd put money on Sisyphus getting that rock over the hill before HPSP not filling in peacetime.
 
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pgg said:
I don't think anything short of another big, long war would do that. It wasn't until Iraq got ugly and the news was talking about 12 and 18 month Army deployments that HPSP didn't fill.

Today, HPSP pays a lot more more, medical schools cost a lot more, and student loan interest rates are a lot higher. HPSP is full and it's going to stay full. We can post forever about the maybes and ifs of military GME but premeds are looking at 4 years of tuition. If they're thinking ahead to residency, they're expecting to be the same kind of rockstar med student as they are rockstar undergrads and thus have their pick of anything anywhere. The perils of a nurse CO, number of people running the clinic front desk, even an inexcusable 2+ month delay in getting paid is filtered through their perception of the massive wealth and riches of a doctor's paycheck ...

Remember, 60% of these people would eat a poop hot dog just to get into medical school, and 100% are telling adcoms they want to to do primary care in underserved communities, and 90% are telling their friends (who still have Bernie Sanders bumper stickers on their cars/bicycles) that they'd be OK making $100K as attendings because that's plenty to live on.

I'd put money on Sisyphus getting that rock over the hill before HPSP not filling in peacetime.
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pgg, you are likely correct in your above analysis; however, I would argue that there are better avenues (i.e. agreeing to practice in underserved areas for x amount of time, working for the Indian health service, VA etc) to consider if financial concerns are that big of a issue. Remember, MOST physicians that take HPSP, USUHS, etc come out on the short end of the financial stick. I realize most med students are focusing on a 5-10 year plan rather than 20-30 year but those are the facts. Educating prospective med students about these facts and the perils of military medicine are the only way to decrease recruitment and this enact change, IMO.
 
Gastrapathy said:
I'm not sure a higher percentage could leave than do already. Most of the people who stay are 13 years plus before the end of their obligation. They want us to quit. It's not like they really care about quality.
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I agree with above.

Speaking of, This IP, BCP, RB sudden change, made me realize all those additional special pays that kind of had been taken for granted, can "suddenly disappear" in one second. Have an uneasy feeling that ten of thousands of dollars of your salary can potentially be taken away at a whim.
 
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