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So the problem was that she woke up combative... how did keeping her on the OR table improve that situation?
When it comes to intubating and extubating, you do what makes you feel comfortable and safe. You are in charge. Anyone else can suck it.I was on call overnight and had an "emergent" flank abscess I&D
Pt had gerd, asthma, 1ppd smoker, meth user, crack user (both 2d ago), daily marijuana user, obstructive sleep apnea, and she ate McDonald's, Cheetos and peanut m&ms while in the ED.
We delayed the case 8h, did RSI, easy intubation, quick case, no problem.
Waking her up, had gastric contents with suction. I also had a feeling she was going to be combative and worried about her getting access to her tube (big strong girl). Old nurse wanted to move her over to the bed before extubation, but I said no. I wanted to keep her on the table. Old nurse threw a hissy fit. I pretty much outlined all the badness involved with her, my anesthesia concerns, and that I was keeping her on the table until extubated. Bitching and moaning for the next 10 minutes ensued. She woke up wild, almost pulled the tube, detached her iv tubing, smacked a med student, and got some propofol to calm her down.
There's more, but I'm post call and too tired. My questions are, was I right to stand my ground, when is it appropriate to stand my ground, and how do it do it in the most pc way.
My attending sort of had my back... She just said "I defer to Dr. Resident." Gee, thanks.
Absolutely this ^^^^^^^When it comes to intubating and extubating, you do what makes you feel comfortable and safe. You are in charge. Anyone else can suck it.
I wouldn't. You are a resident. Put your head down, don't make waves. Get through that sh&t and move on with your life in a few years (or however long).Write up the nurse for unprofessional behavior. Seriously. It's the only way they learn.
Yeah, fair enough. You're absolutely right.I wouldn't. You are a resident. Put your head down, don't make waves. Get through that sh&t and move on with your life in a few years (or however long).
If it is your style, as it is mine, being a little self depricating can be effective: "my o.c.d is a little high today, I think ill keep her on the table until extubation"
the fat blowhard nurse will get her sense of superity and all the sane people in the room will get the message that you are being safe.
This is precisely what is wrong with medicine these days. And an invitation for people to walk all over you in the future.
I don't want to create an environment where I've endorsed someone questioning a life and death decision of mine in a crisis. If people think I'm a little bit of an a**hole sometimes, so be it. I don't care. I don't go home with or live with those people.
Polite. Firm. No explanations. This is the way we're going to do it. The buck stops with me. In court the plaintiff and the judge aren't going to care if you were self-deprecating. Until the blame is shared equally, I'm in charge.
I understand that sentiment from a more assertive personality, but for me it has worked quite well, leading to functional relationships with these bitchy nurses, rather than them walking all over me.
If you want to do anything, just buy that fat pig a big bag of candy or cookies or a cake. It's amazing how much nicer these fat slobs gets when you inject them with sugar for their diabetes.
I don't think there's anything wrong with being self-deprecating. The people who I know that are firm with everything get the reputation of being easily stressed, and they aren't taken very seriously. When the nurses know you don't sweat the small stuff, they'll trust you when you stress that something really is a big deal.
Your attending was there. You could have just let him make the call.
Let see how well that works when you are truly in a crisis. I want people who respond to, not question, what I'm doing. I've seen colleagues who are too nice to subordinates. Ironically and almost counter-intuitively, that's not really what they want from you. They are not your friends. If they tend not to respect you or your judgment, whether you think they do or not, they will not get your back if you ever find yourself in an... ahem... "adversarial" situation. Believe me. I've seen it firsthand.
First and foremost is competence. Second, and almost important, is respect. Even if you leave the perception of the first, it doesn't mean much without the second. If you have neither, then you can be the nicest person on the planet and no one will really take you seriously, refer patients to you, request you, trust in you a crisis, etc.
Union nurse versus anesthesia attending: "Dr. So-and-so created a 'hostile work environment'. "
Yeah I don't think you have to give her an explanation at all.
... I also had a feeling she was going to be combative and worried about her getting access to her tube (big strong girl).... I wanted to keep her on the table. ... She woke up wild, almost pulled the tube, detached her iv tubing, smacked a med student, and got some propofol to calm her down.
I also had a feeling she was going to be combative and worried about her getting access to her tube (big strong girl). ...She woke up wild, almost pulled the tube, detached her iv tubing, smacked a med student, and got some propofol to calm her down.
Thanks. This is the other side of the coin. I have some attendings who 100% keep them on the table for extubation, and others who rarely do. I feel pretty flexible most times, and generally don't mind keeping the peace. I just had a bad feeling about moving her. I should add that by the time we got her flat on her back from left lateral, she was already starting to buck. She was also surrounded by people and with safety strap on and less likely to fall. In retrospect, I could have moved her if we flipped her more quickly. I usually cut the gas off when they start packing wounds, and she breathed the gas off pretty quick, and by the time they put abd pads on, she was breathing nicely and starting to stir. I just felt more comfortable after that leaving her on the table. It didn't take long to pull the tube, but seems like an eternity when there's tension in the room.I absolutely agree with you standing your ground.
I'm not sure about your plan though..
I prefer to keep these sort of patients asleep till they are on their bed, positioned optimally in the bed for reintubation (which is generally also a good position for extubation), I ensure I have (re)induction drugs and equipment ready, and a bite block in place, then I wake them ... if she manages to pull her own tube - that's fine by me - she doesn't need it anymore.
Worst case scenario for me would be agitated obese patient with difficult airway, at risk for failed extubation, gets combative, pulls out IV and falls off operating table - e then gets more hypoxic requiring reintubation on the floor and a crane to get them in bed ... at least in bed they're less likely to fall ... presuming your bed allows proper positioning.
You had these concerns and did nothing to prevent them? Like...
pre-emergence versed
pre-emergence precedex (0.5mcg/kg)
pre-emergence haldol
pre-emergence droperidol (good luck)
pre-emergence benadryl
deep extubation (not my first choice in this case)
I spend a great deal of time at work, and fortunately I really enjoy it. Not because I get respect, or because I'm "treated like a doctor". I like almost everyone I work with and they're my friends. With a few exceptions everyone does their jobs well. I rarely need to be "firm" with anyone because I can't remember the last time people didn't so what I asked. They now usually do them BEFORE I even ask. I also do what others ask, because most of them are reasonable and I'm not a prima Donna (this is one of the worst possible profession for prima donnas).
Without a doubt, other folks work in different environments, and may or may not enjoy their jobs in the same way I do. Just do what you want and learn from your mistakes. Hopefully you'll be happy.
The only real advice I've got I guess is don't go "looking" for respect as an anesthesiologist. If you show that you're self-sufficient and competent, most folks will be HAPPY to lend a hand and do as you ask, and I'm sure you'll be "respected." And if you're really the cream of the crop, you won't give a **** whether anyone does or not.
I prefer to keep these sort of patients asleep till they are on their bed, positioned optimally in the bed for reintubation (which is generally also a good position for extubation), I ensure I have (re)induction drugs and equipment ready, and a bite block in place, then I wake them ... if she manages to pull her own tube - that's fine by me - she doesn't need it anymore.
Worst case scenario for me would be agitated obese patient with difficult airway, at risk for failed extubation, gets combative, pulls out IV and falls off operating table - e then gets more hypoxic requiring reintubation on the floor and a crane to get them in bed ... at least in bed they're less likely to fall ... presuming your bed allows proper positioning.
Thanks. I don't want to be confrontational but at the same time I want nurses to stop asking me things like "can you hold this pts arm while I prep" at the same time I'm trying to treat hypotension, start an iv, etc.
For the most part, it's been a positive experience. The negative ones sure stick with you though.
WHAT!??!???!!
Dude/Dudette: You seriously need to put a stop to that shit!
I've politely asked them to have the surgery resident help. But still get requests like this. Of course after my attending has left the room!
I appreciate all the feedback. I've had my post call day to chill, it's all good now. Just makes me realize more and more how diplomatic we as a profession have to be.
Versed? Benadryl? Antipsychotics? Seriously?You had these concerns and did nothing to prevent them? Like...
pre-emergence versed
pre-emergence precedex (0.5mcg/kg)
pre-emergence haldol
pre-emergence droperidol (good luck)
pre-emergence benadryl
deep extubation (not my first choice in this case)
I discussed versed with attending, shot down. No Precedex, haldol, droperidol immediately available. I didn't think about Benadryl. I could have called central pharm, but would be extubated by the time drugs arrived (no droperidol in the hospital)
Deep wasn't really an option.
That's why you just say this is what we will do. And that's it. And that's what you do. They don't need to know why you do what you do.Union nurse versus anesthesia attending: "Dr. So-and-so created a 'hostile work environment'. "
Good.stuff here, and maybe some extra opiate and/or propofol. Man I miss drop.You had these concerns and did nothing to prevent them? Like...
pre-emergence versed
pre-emergence precedex (0.5mcg/kg)
pre-emergence haldol
pre-emergence droperidol (good luck)
pre-emergence benadryl
deep extubation (not my first choice in this case)
Extubation planning starts before induction.I discussed versed with attending, shot down. No Precedex, haldol, droperidol immediately available. I didn't think about Benadryl. I could have called central pharm, but would be extubated by the time drugs arrived (no droperidol in the hospital)
Deep wasn't really an option.
Do you put all your patients to sleep on the bed and intubate them before you move them to the OR table? Why, or why not? And I'm not talking about the fracture patient that will hurt if you move them.
If I'm absolutely sure of my airway, I have no problem moving a patient to the bed and extubating them there. If I have the least little doubt, they're staying directly in front of me until they're awake, extubated, and I'm positive they're ready to go. A patient's airway is rarely, if ever, easier to manage on a bed that's further away from your anesthesia machine and presumably all your airway equipment and suction. I take care of the patient, then deal with turnover time - and I wake mine up faster than most in my department.