Start-up After Residency

[IrishBuckRock]

Hi everyone. I recently graduated from dental school and will start a GPR this fall. I know starting a practice right out of dental school is very hard, but what are the possibilities of doing so after completing a residency? Have any of you done it or knows someone who has? My main goal while in the program is to become a better, faster, and more efficient dentist, but I could also use my spare time to learn the business side of owning/managing a practice. Any advice or opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks

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[sed8nyank4u]

Order the manuals from Comfort Demtal. Howard Farran's 30 day MBA. Actually, move your question to dentaltown because you will get much better help there.
Consider, no, definitely take Scott Leune's breakaway seminar. If you only take this it will be worn it. Make sure you get your moderate sedation permit.

 

[real dentist]

!!!

 

[Sublimazing]

!!!

???

 

[tbond5]

???

@@@

 

[Shunwei]

Order the manuals from Comfort Demtal. Howard Farran's 30 day MBA. Actually, move your question to dentaltown because you will get much better help there.
Consider, no, definitely take Scott Leune's breakaway seminar. If you only take this it will be worn it. Make sure you get your moderate sedation permit.

Funny you mention Scott leune. I worked for him as my last corporate position before buying my own office. Hated the experience and the business model. As someone who actually worked in his system, I think it's grossly overrated. Extremely long and crazy hours, bare bones business model which wears people out, his model is still subjected to the most basic laws of dental business: Location, location, location. Of his seven offices in the DFW area, only two are considered successful and that's because they are in locations without much competition, and the others arent so hot. Not sure why the guy gets so much accolade, but I was there firsthand and didn't see anything remarkable.

 

[sed8nyank4u]

I am sure working for Scott and quitting or being let go has a different dynamic than taking the seminar and getting the very valuable info. He has combined and condensed what many experts on practice management have been saying for years. Very little of the material he presents is original. You could get it elsewhere but it will take you much longer and cost thousands more.
If you are thinking start up you owe it to yourself to check it out.
Also, new grads get great discounts on a lot of CE. Play that card everywhere. Moonlight if you can as the real world is completely different than a residency.
Consider changing the focus of your stated goals (better, faster, more efficient). Actually, those are not technically goals at all because they are not specific, measurable, etc. For example of becoming faster. I mean that is not a bad outcome but speed will come no matter what, residency or not. I would use the residency to learn new procedures and become competent at those procedures.
1. IV sedation (20+ cases)
2. Implant placement (as many as possible. More than 5, 20+ would be more impressive for your resume one year out)
3. Molar endo (do every case that comes your way)
4. Surgical extractions (do as Many as possible)

Bottom line is this: of you are not learning new and more complicated procedures to proficiency (in addition to speed, proficiency, and getting "better") your residency is likely a big waste of time. Find out what current residents are doing and learning if you haven't already and don't be afraid to pull the plug if it doesn't make sense.
You can get a really crappy associate position and invest the difference in income 100k-40k= 60k in CE to get excellent training in those disciplines while still getting faster, better, and more efficient.
Remember that the value in completing a residency is only WHAT YOU DO in that residency.

 

[Shunwei]

I am sure working for Scott and quitting or being let go has a different dynamic than taking the seminar and getting the very valuable info. He has combined and condensed what many experts on practice management have been saying for years. Very little of the material he presents is original. You could get it elsewhere but it will take you much longer and cost thousands more.
If you are thinking start up you owe it to yourself to check it out.
Also, new grads get great discounts on a lot of CE. Play that card everywhere. Moonlight if you can as the real world is completely different than a residency.
Consider changing the focus of your stated goals (better, faster, more efficient). Actually, those are not technically goals at all because they are not specific, measurable, etc. For example of becoming faster. I mean that is not a bad outcome but speed will come no matter what, residency or not. I would use the residency to learn new procedures and become competent at those procedures.
1. IV sedation (20+ cases)
2. Implant placement (as many as possible. More than 5, 20+ would be more impressive for your resume one year out)
3. Molar endo (do every case that comes your way)
4. Surgical extractions (do as Many as possible)

Bottom line is this: of you are not learning new and more complicated procedures to proficiency (in addition to speed, proficiency, and getting "better") your residency is likely a big waste of time. Find out what current residents are doing and learning if you haven't already and don't be afraid to pull the plug if it doesn't make sense.
You can get a really crappy associate position and invest the difference in income 100k-40k= 60k in CE to get excellent training in those disciplines while still getting faster, better, and more efficient.
Remember that the value in completing a residency is only WHAT YOU DO in that residency.

I wasn't let go, I quit Scott's position because it was terrible. If what he is preaching is what his offices are doing, then I dare say his business model sucks monkey balls. I don't even know where to begin to describe my criticism of his model, whether it's the 12 hours workdays, have minimal staff so that everyone is worked out completely during those 12 hours, paying the staff (including the dentist) minimal wages,etc. etc., I was there firsthand and experienced everything. And it sucks. Not sure what the hoopla around him is, but then again he is a speaker--and speakers know how to manipulate peoples emotions whether he actually has substance or not.

The office I worked for him was a poorly sited one with at least 5 other dental offices nearby. As a result, it is not doing well and probably can't either in that kind of environment, and apparently his 'magic formula' that he is trying to preach is not working. When I quit at office had gone through 9 dentists in two years. In the end, a lot of the stuff he says in his seminars is common sense, as you say, so I see no need to worship the guy. He is just another corporate bloodsucker disguised as a 'Joel Osteen' kind of speaker.

 

[Silent Cool]

I wasn't let go, I quit Scott's position because it was terrible. If what he is preaching is what his offices are doing, then I dare say his business model sucks monkey balls. I don't even know where to begin to describe my criticism of his model, whether it's the 12 hours workdays, have minimal staff so that everyone is worked out completely during those 12 hours, paying the staff (including the dentist) minimal wages,etc. etc., I was there firsthand and experienced everything. And it sucks. Not sure what the hoopla around him is, but then again he is a speaker--and speakers know how to manipulate peoples emotions whether he actually has substance or not.

The office I worked for him was a poorly sited one with at least 5 other dental offices nearby. As a result, it is not doing well and probably can't either in that kind of environment, and apparently his 'magic formula' that he is trying to preach is not working. When I quit at office had gone through 9 dentists in two years. In the end, a lot of the stuff he says in his seminars is common sense, as you say, so I see no need to worship the guy. He is just another corporate bloodsucker disguised as a 'Joel Osteen' kind of speaker.

Shunwei,
Thanks for posting about him. He is all over Dentaltown, and a lot of people do praise/reference him, etc.. I was always curious what the real deal behind him was. Nice comparison to Joel Osteen. Sounds like Leune is a sort-of televangelist of dentistry.

 

[Shunwei]

Shunwei,
Thanks for posting about him. He is all over Dentaltown, and a lot of people do praise/reference him, etc.. I was always curious what the real deal behind him was. Nice comparison to Joel Osteen. Sounds like Leune is a sort-of televangelist of dentistry.

I know, he has a following on D-Town and that's precisely why I find so perplexing. I know his business model, I worked for him, I saw it from the inside, and frankly I am not impressed. But speakers are speakers. They know how to package their material and appeal to human emotion.

 

[wb1]

I am sure working for Scott and quitting or being let go has a different dynamic than taking the seminar and getting the very valuable info. He has combined and condensed what many experts on practice management have been saying for years. Very little of the material he presents is original. You could get it elsewhere but it will take you much longer and cost thousands more.
If you are thinking start up you owe it to yourself to check it out.
Also, new grads get great discounts on a lot of CE. Play that card everywhere. Moonlight if you can as the real world is completely different than a residency.
Consider changing the focus of your stated goals (better, faster, more efficient). Actually, those are not technically goals at all because they are not specific, measurable, etc. For example of becoming faster. I mean that is not a bad outcome but speed will come no matter what, residency or not. I would use the residency to learn new procedures and become competent at those procedures.
1. IV sedation (20+ cases)
2. Implant placement (as many as possible. More than 5, 20+ would be more impressive for your resume one year out)
3. Molar endo (do every case that comes your way)
4. Surgical extractions (do as Many as possible)

Bottom line is this: of you are not learning new and more complicated procedures to proficiency (in addition to speed, proficiency, and getting "better") your residency is likely a big waste of time. Find out what current residents are doing and learning if you haven't already and don't be afraid to pull the plug if it doesn't make sense.
You can get a really crappy associate position and invest the difference in income 100k-40k= 60k in CE to get excellent training in those disciplines while still getting faster, better, and more efficient.
Remember that the value in completing a residency is only WHAT YOU DO in that residency.

I'm not hijacking the threat. Would you also give some breakdown on what CEs to get in general with for avg. associate position to improve on speed & cases. These are direct employment expenses and I believe could lower my taxable income.
Thanks!

 

[IrishBuckRock]

Thanks for the replies. In regard to my initial questions, is it feasible to do a start-up after a residency?

 

[Silent Cool]

For those curious about Scott Leune,

Here's one of his 'breakaway' threads on dentaltown:

http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=143&t=169477&pg=1

 

[Shunwei]

For those curious about Scott Leune,

Here's one of his 'breakaway' threads on dentaltown:

http://www.dentaltown.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=143&t=169477&pg=1

One way you can tell the real worth of his credibility is his statement about selling to Heartland and remarking "Heartland is a great company to work for . . . ." Anyone hat can say that with a straight face or in print should be laughed out of the room.

All of his offices look the same. Supposedly his wife designed all of the layout, but personally I didn't like it as the layout is mostly nonlinear (except for he office I worked in, but sts probably due to the constraint of he leasing space), so it's actually hard to get around. Another thing I didn't like is how his operatories do not have the usual overhead adjustable lights, and he requires his dentists to wear a light either on he loupes or on an eyewear. The light is quite heavy and you have to drag around a battery pack. Personally, I don't even use loupes as my eyesight is good and I much prefer the usual overhead dental lighting.

He said that he quit clinical dentistry because he fractured his back. I sometimes wonder if his hours of operations contributed to his problems. Working 7-7 four or five days a week is simply beyond a reasonable workload for any dentist. He will try to defend that by saying that his offices have a huge flow of patients so that you can make enough working three days a week. I would counter by saying that except for maybe 2 of his 7 offices his patient flow is insufficient to allow one to make enough on a three day workweek and in many case his reduced-fee plans (like ~650 per crown, $105 Class II directs) along with a 25% production pay rate makes it nearly impossible to do so or if you can, you will end up like him with a broken back soon into your career.

Like I said before, the guy is just a dental 'Joel Osteen.'

 

[Silent Cool]

One way you can tell the real worth of his credibility is his statement about selling to Heartland and remarking "Heartland is a great company to work for . . . ." Anyone hat can say that with a straight face or in print should be laughed out of the room.

All of his offices look the same. Supposedly his wife designed all of the layout, but personally I didn't like it as the layout is mostly nonlinear (except for he office I worked in, but sts probably due to the constraint of he leasing space), so it's actually hard to get around. Another hing I didn't like is how his operator is do not have the usual overhead adjustable lights, and he requires his dentists to wear a light either on he loupes or on an eyewear. The light is quite heavy and you have to drag around a battery pack. Personally, I don't even use loupes as my eyesight is good and I much prefer the usual overhead dental lighting.

He said at he quit clinical dentistry because he fractured his back. I sometimes wonder if his hours of operations contributed to his problems. Working 7-7 four or five days a week is simply beyond a reasonable workload for any dentist. He will try to defend that by saying that his offices have a huge flow of patients so that you can make enough working three days a week. I would counter by saying that except for maybe 2 of his 7 offices his patient flow is insufficient to allow one to make enough on a here day workweek and in many case his reduced-fee plans (like ~650 per crown, $105 Class II directs) along with a 25% production pay rate makes it nearly impossible to do so or if you can, you will end up like him with a broken back soon into your career.

Like I said before, the guy is just a dental 'Joel Osteen.'

Shunwei,
Have you experienced any significant back in pain so far in your work, and if so are there certain things that you would recommend to other dentists to avoid/prevent it?

Obviously good posture is important; I would guess that rushing through work like Leune seems to makes this extremely difficult.

 

[amfassz]

One way you can tell the real worth of his credibility is his statement about selling to Heartland and remarking "Heartland is a great company to work for . . . ." Anyone hat can say that with a straight face or in print should be laughed out of the room.

All of his offices look the same. Supposedly his wife designed all of the layout, but personally I didn't like it as the layout is mostly nonlinear (except for he office I worked in, but sts probably due to the constraint of he leasing space), so it's actually hard to get around. Another hing I didn't like is how his operator is do not have the usual overhead adjustable lights, and he requires his dentists to wear a light either on he loupes or on an eyewear. The light is quite heavy and you have to drag around a battery pack. Personally, I don't even use loupes as my eyesight is good and I much prefer the usual overhead dental lighting.

He said at he quit clinical dentistry because he fractured his back. I sometimes wonder if his hours of operations contributed to his problems. Working 7-7 four or five days a week is simply beyond a reasonable workload for any dentist. He will try to defend that by saying that his offices have a huge flow of patients so that you can make enough working three days a week. I would counter by saying that except for maybe 2 of his 7 offices his patient flow is insufficient to allow one to make enough on a here day workweek and in many case his reduced-fee plans (like ~650 per crown, $105 Class II directs) along with a 25% production pay rate makes it nearly impossible to do so or if you can, you will end up like him with a broken back soon into your career.

Like I said before, the guy is just a dental 'Joel Osteen.'

reading the thread he seems pretty fake

and his cult on DT agreeing with everything

 

[Shunwei]

Shunwei,
Have you experienced any significant back in pain so far in your work, and if so are there certain things that you would recommend to other dentists to avoid/prevent it?

Obviously good posture is important; I would guess that rushing through work like Leune seems to makes this extremely difficult.

I am fine as of now, I may be 38 but physically my mileage is low and appearance wise I can pass for 28. I go to the gym 5-6 times a week so that helps.

Leunes practice model makes it so that you'd really have to push beyond a reasonable limit to even make a decent wage. There are too many things wrong with his business model from my first hand experience that I am amazed the guy gets a large following on dentaltown. Then again, history has shown how mindless a mob can be in response to a good speaker, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

 

[amfassz]

one of his posts from dt

We currently have half of the dentist positions filled... and they have all been out between 1-6 years. So our docs right now are relatively young. In the past, we had docs who had previously owned practices and were changing directions in their 25-year careers. But as of now, this is what we've got. I have never seen a correlation in productivity between a highly experienced dentist, and one who's only been out 3 years or so. I've also never seen a correlation with the qulity of dentistry, or with leadership skills. The only thing I've seen from more experienced dentist is their ability to treat staff well, and to walk the patient through a stressful situation better. Our dentists will not be partners, unless we seek out additional partners down the line. We do not have requirements for specialty skils, but will definitely enourage them to learn. Right now, we have dentists interested who can place implants, do molar endo, do comprehensive ortho, short term ortho, and full bony impacted extractions.