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Starting Salary for DPT new-grads

Discussion in 'Physical Therapy' started by jblil, 07.11.12.

  1. jblil

    jblil

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    In order to help DPT new-grads evaluate or negotiate job offers, I put together a very short salary survey (only 6 questions) at this URL:If you are a recent grad, please take the survey. It's completely anonymous. Also tell your classmates about it and encourage them to take the survey. The more data we have, the more useful the results will be.

    Results are posted here, and will be updated as more responses roll in:
  2. jblil

    jblil

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    I have posted the survey to the forum at rehabedge.com.
    On the DPT FB group, can we make it "stick to the top" so it won't disappear from view quickly? I'm not a FB power user, does anybody know how to do that? (I have not posted the survey there yet).

    There are a couple of additional respondents, so check out the results.
  3. jblil

    jblil

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    Since we're talking about money, I ran across the private student loan program below from Discover. For health professionals, the rates are either 6.79% (fixed), or 3.25% (variable [same as the "prime rate"]). While nobody can predict the future, the Fed seems to be willing to keep rates low for the next 12-18 months. This would make Discover's variable option a not-too-painful deal.

    https://www.discover.com/student-loans/private-student-loans/index.html
  4. jblil

    jblil

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    In NC, the newspapers publish a database of salaries of state employees. As many hospitals are non-profit entities run by the state, salaries of all their personnel are public knowledge (if you bother to look). It took a bit of digging and collating, but I was able to get the salaries of PTs working at UNC Hospitals. FWIW, I'll simply state the aggregate numbers:

    PT-I (I assume most new grads would fall into this category):
    Average: $61.2K
    Median: $61K
    There are 22 data points total, ranging from a low of $29.5K (part-time?) to a high of $72K

    PT-II (not sure how many years of experience would bump you up from PT-I to PT-II):
    Average: $76.9K
    Median: $78.5K
    There are 16 data points total, ranging from a low of $61.6K to a high of $87.1K

    PT-HH (Home Health?)
    Average: $80.8K
    Median: $81.3K
    There are 10 data points total, ranging from a low of $76.5K to a high of $84.8K

    So I think the "average" salary of ~$76K from the BLS is achievable, but probably not (or not very easily) as a starting salary.
    Last edited: 07.12.12
  5. okramango

    okramango

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    On the FB group, there is no way to make it "stick" to the top, but the posts don't really move down very quickly either. It should remain close to the top for a little while.
  6. GTT4DPT

    GTT4DPT

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    jblil - thanks for going to the trouble of putting all this stuff together. I wanted to see how Texas might compare to NC and so pulled govt. employee data for Texas and got the following:

    Title : Count : Average Experience : Average Annual Salary
    Physical Therapist : 61 : 3.7 : $66,504
    Physical Therapist I : 6 : 0.5 : $57,107
    Physical Therapist II : 6 : 2.5 : $63,762
    Physical Therapist III : 19 : 10.2 : $82,507
    Sr Physical Therapist : 26 : 4.7 : $84,718
    Supv, Physical Therapy : 2 : 18.5 : $112,568​

    I'm estimating experience based on date of hire (but they might have had prior experience which could throw the results). Also, the data doesn't include hours/benefits so there are some real holes there.

    On a side note, I discovered that UT Football Coach Mack Brown is the highest paid state employee, raking in $5.2 million per year. Not bad for government work.
  7. jblil

    jblil

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    And that's probably before all the juicy endorsement deals offered to him...

    GTT4DPT - Thanks for pulling the TX data, it adds another layer of details to the overall salary picture. Would you know if the data is for a specific area, e.g., Houston, Dallas-FW, etc, or an average for all TX?

    BTW, there have been a few data points added to the survey:
    http://dptfinances.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/hello-world/
  8. GTT4DPT

    GTT4DPT

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    Here's the data with employing entity broken out:


    Location : Title : Count : Average Experience : Average Annual Salary
    The University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas : Physical Therapist : 49 : 3.5 : $66,512
    The University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas : Sr Physical Therapist : 1 : 7 : $92,810
    The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center : Physical Therapist : 11 : 2.5 : $66,478
    The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center : Sr Physical Therapist : 23 : 3.7 : $83,907
    The University of Texas MD Anderson Cancer Center : Supv, Physical Therapy : 2 : 18.5 : $112,568
    University of Texas Medical Branch : Physical Therapist I : 6 : 0.5 : $57,107
    University of Texas Medical Branch : Physical Therapist II : 6 : 2.5 : $63,762
    University of Texas Medical Branch : Physical Therapist III : 19 : 10.2 : $82,507
    The University of Texas Health Science Center at Tyler : Sr Physical Therapist : 2 : 14.5 : $90,000
    The University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston : Physical Therapist : 1 : 28 : $66,408​

    So it's capturing govt. employment in Dallas, Houston, Galveston and Tyler (east of Dallas).

    I'd been thinking that being a state employee might entail a substantial difference from working in a private outpatient environment, but based on the information in the survey to date, that doesn't seem to be the case (maybe I'm looking at it wrong). Good to see all this information. Good to set realistic expectations at the outset...
  9. jblil

    jblil

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    The last job I had before embarking on the PT journey was with a state agency. It certainly varies with different states and companies, but on average my benefits were slightly better than in the private sector. However, the work environment was frankly toxic: very politicized, thoroughly incompetent people, incessant back-stabbing, cliques all over, etc. I don't miss it at all and feel sorry for many (not all - some deserve to be there!) of my ex-colleagues who are stuck there. And I think that the state benefits will get gradually eroded with time as states look for ways to address their fiscal deficits. My wife, who got a state job about 10 years ago, has better bennies than I did when I joined in 2009.

    Back to DPT pay: IMO the way to a higher salary is not to work as a "pure PT", but to leverage your past experience and carve out or invent a specific niche - at least for us non-trads who have significant prior work experience. For ex., with your background in actuarial science, how about designing a program that can help predict certain conditions and outcomes after PT, then sell it or license it to clinics and hospitals? I am no actuary so forgive me if the example is far-fetched, but you get the idea... My own experience is in engineering and software, and I can already think of a few things to do for stroke rehab. I view our past experience as a foundation to build on, with PT being the uppermost layer.
  10. jblil

    jblil

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  11. nazmar

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    On the topic of capital, hoping not to stray too far off topic, but would a PT who delegated some of their free-time to part time Home-Health care, or something of the sort, be able to substantially increase their earnings? Are working the two intuitive, maybe a year or two after graduation or should one wait until more experience is garnered?
  12. jblil

    jblil

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    You mean, working in Home Health over the weekend in addition to a regular PT job during the week? I don't know if there is a big demand for w/e HH care... Personally, I would want some personal rest time for myself. I like PT, but not to the point of doing it 7 days a week.
  13. nazmar

    nazmar

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    Good point. I know for certain i'd feel the same way. It's just something I heard some PTs do.

    Personally, I don't see the need to since the income itself is damn good for a job with mostly normal hours, imo. Perhaps it just depends on the sort of lifestyle you want to live. But if a PT did want a higher salary, if not home health, what would they do? I've heard some can buy out other practices/or co-own practices...
  14. jblil

    jblil

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    I've been volunteering on Saturdays at a SNF for 2 years. Most of the PTs working there on Sats are PRN. A 4-hr shift is pretty common, sometimes it's 6 hrs or more. Let's say a PT works such a gig, in addition to his/her regular job. So:
    4 hrs/weekend x $40/hr x 45 weekends/year = $7,200/yr
    I think that if you really wanted to, earning an extra $5K - $10K a year through PRN gigs is quite do-able. The downside of course is less personal leisure time.

    That's another possibility. However, the capital outlay will be high. I would not recommend this until you've become a somewhat seasoned PT and understand the business side of the profession, in addition to its clinical side.
  15. callmecrazy

    callmecrazy

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    Another common setup is for therapists to work 4 days, 10 hour days in one position. Then you can pick up prn on a fifth day. So you're working 40+ hours but still get your full weekend. Its a nice way to up your income while sacrificing hours instead of days. The longer days work well in outpatient, not so much inpatient because of business hours. Aside from pay, your days and hours are points of negotiation at hire too if you're looking for something outside the norm.
  16. nazmar

    nazmar

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    See, and that's a part of why PT is such a marvelous profession. I'd do it for free.

    Okay, maybe not free. :)

    Thanks for the insight folks.
  17. jblil

    jblil

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    Now that we have 30 respondents to the salary survey, I have put the results (to date) in charts for ease of visualization.

    A few thoughts:
    - The survey lumps together graduates of 2010, 2011 and 2012, so we're ignoring the "time value of money": a $60K starting salary offered in 2010 would be slightly better than the same pay offered to a 2012 grad.
    - Only 2 respondents reported working in a SNF. Of those 2, one reported a starting salary of >$100K, although the work environment is "rural" - that may explain the high pay. I am rather dubious of that one data point. The other reported a starting pay of $60K to $65K, which seems more reasonable.
    - Differences in pay between large/medium/small cities are minimal, certainly less than I expected to see.
    - Outpatient clinics have a wider range of pay than hospitals, and the upper range for OP clinics is higher than that of hospitals (at least, for the data to-date).
    - I will keep the survey open so we can see how the class of 2013 fares, in a few months.

    I hope this is useful for you as you plan your future, or negotiate your starting salary if you're the class of 2013.

    If you want to download the Excel spreadsheet and run your own analysis, it can be found at:
    http://dptfinances.wordpress.com/201...0/hello-world/

    Attached Files:

  18. myr11

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    Thank you so much for putting that together and sharing it. Way to take some initiative!
  19. jblil

    jblil

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    This came to me in a private message: one person was inspired to negotiate his/her offer by analyzing the survey results, and successfully brought it up from $70K-$75K to $75K-$80K. Congratulations!

    BTW, there are now 35 respondents. I will update the PDF charts over the weekend (only 30 respondents in the current charts).
  20. okramango

    okramango

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    Wow, that's great! Your survey results have definitely inspired me to negotiate my salary as well, though that will be several years from now! ;)
  21. jblil

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    I have updated the survey results since we now have more respondents. I put some comments on the last slide.

    The raw Excel data can be found at this link, in case you want to do your own analysis:
    http://dptfinances.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/hello-world/

    I hope it helps the class of 2013!

    Attached Files:

  22. silverwolf

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    Wow, thanks jblil. Your in-depth analysis was very useful. It's nice to see real data as opposed to figures that are thrown to us online. :)

    (By the way I was on the pharmacy track during all of my undergrad but after graduating this past year, I realized I want to explore my options in healthcare before I commit to a career; after all, it's 4 more years of hard work [not to mention a lot of $$$] and I'll be doing it for the rest of my life so I better be sure about it! And quite frankly, the field of physical therapy is sounding more and more appealing to me. I read through your previous posts on this board, and they've been very helpful, thank you!)
  23. jblil

    jblil

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    You're welcome. I assume you have read the discussions in the Pharmacy section of SDN? I skim through them regularly since several of my nieces and nephews are in, or just graduated from, Pharmacy school. While the pay is certainly higher (I think one person reported $137K in his/her first year), I could never do the job of a retail pharmacist for even one week, let alone 30+ years!
  24. silverwolf

    silverwolf

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    I hear you! Yeah I regularly keep up with the threads on the pharmacy forum, especially the "doom and gloom" ones, almost as if deep down I've realized pharmacy isn't for me and I keep reading what I want confirmed, lol.

    In all seriousness though, deciding to not pursue pharmacy wasn't an over-night decision or based on what I read online. When I graduated in June, I spent a whole month working on applications and even sent them all in before realizing I need to step away from it and consider other careers before committing. After talking to a couple pharmacists and doing a lot of research, I now feel like I won't be going back to it.

    Physical therapy might not be the highest paying career in healthcare, but I rather make $30k less a year and know I'm not miserable (knowing myself, I wouldn't survive in retail) as well as feel good about my job. I'm actually going to check out physical therapy tomorrow, I am shadowing a PT in an outpatient clinic in my area so I'm looking forward to it!
  25. PTapp

    PTapp DPT

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    jblil, thank you so much for the data. Helps a lot! I just got a job offer at a hospital in a mid-size city and I accepted it. I updated the list as well.

    One other thing I'd like to add is that I also got a per diem (PRN) job at a SNF that pays $40/hour. I had no problems with finding a job in Western New York area. I went to 3 interviews and got job offers from all of them and I actually got my dream job. This is a good field despite the economy. Love it! :)
  26. jblil

    jblil

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    PTapp - Congrats! And thank you for updating the list. Good move on the PRN position, it is an easy way for PTs to increase their income.

    I was in L.A. last month and met a couple of PTs there. Upon hearing that I am in PT school, they gave me their business cards and asked me to give them a call when I graduate (!) as their outfit is looking for more staff. I sure hope the job market continues to stay strong for us.
  27. jblil

    jblil

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    Since we now have 48 respondents to the survey, I updated the charts.

    One item is pretty clear from the data so far: many folks do not negotiate their starting salary and "leave money on the table." Don't be afraid to negotiate; as long as you are courteous and professional about it, you have nothing to lose.

    Attached Files:

  28. callmecrazy

    callmecrazy

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    I am wondering if some of those that report not negotiating have received what they asked for. My employer asked me my desired salary at the interview. Their initial offer was above my desired salary, leaving no reason to negotiate. Are those not negotiating in a similar position?
  29. jblil

    jblil

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    Good point, that is certainly possible. But I'll have to tell you that out of the 4 professional jobs I've held so far, not a single company gave me me the salary I had in mind, in their initial offer. I did negotiate the very first job after my undergrad degree, but had no leverage then (fresh grad, no experience) so I was unsuccessful. The other salary negotiations after that first job turned out much better.

    In order to negotiate successfully, you need to know the pay range for the position and how valuable you are on the market. That's why I started the salary survey. As for how valuable you are, I'd say in general PTs right now are in demand. Whether that's still true 3 or 4 years from now, I don't know. A lot of new DPT schools are opening up and that can flood the market with graduates - just look at Pharmacy or Nursing. One of my professors said the other day that he thinks the best job security, going forward, would be as an instructor in a DPT program.
  30. NewDPT31

    NewDPT31

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    Same thing happened to me, but I still was able to negotiate higher. They asked my desired salary, then offered me 4K more, so I countered for 4K more then what they offered(8k more than my original desired salary). We settled on 2K more than they offered, and 2K signing Bonus. (they offered 5K signing bonus). I preferred the higher salary because with raises based on percentage, after a few years I will have come out on top. And I love this job so I plan on staying for awhile.
    Non profit Hospital based Outpatient.
  31. jblil

    jblil

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    NewDPT31 - Well done! How did you find your negotiation experience? Was it tense, or fairly easygoing? Also, did you work at that specific hospital before (e.g., during one of your clinicals)?
  32. NewDPT31

    NewDPT31

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    It was pretty easy going. I waited a week or so after their offer to counter. Then they countered. Then I countered. Then we agreed. I countered with a small list of reasons why I deserved it, not focusing on cost of living, yatta yatta yatta. I graduated in 2011, So i had a year under my belt working a few months in OP, then 8months in a SNF and doing PRN at a rehab hospital, as well as good clinicals in college. I knew that I knew what I was talking about and demonstrated good business knowledge(even though they are non for profit they still need to make money).
  33. jblil

    jblil

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    As the year draws to an end, we have almost 60 respondents to the starting salary survey. I put the info from the Excel spreadsheet into these charts for ease of visualization:
    http://dptfinances.wordpress.com/2012/12/30/dec-2012-update/

    I'll continue to keep the survey running, esp. as the class of 2013 graduates.

    Happy New Year to all.
  34. Snoopy0910

    Snoopy0910

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    Hi Jbill
    Thanks for your initiative and research into this thread. by any chance did you come across salary for pt with 5 years experience. Please let me know if in your survey anyone has posted their salary with 5 yrs experience. I am specifically interested in it southwestern can any one have some insights of pros and cons for this university op satellites
  35. jblil

    jblil

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  36. GTT4DPT

    GTT4DPT

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    This data provides a slight twist on this topic, but since this thread seems to get populated with so much useful stuff I thought I would include it here.

    Attached is an excel spreadsheet with earnings data pulled from here:

    http://stat.bls.gov/oes/#data

    This is a stripped down version of the full occupation file that includes only information related to physical therapists. It provides annual and hourly wages from the BLS at the 10th, 25th, 50th, 75th and 90th percentiles. This is broken out by industry/employer on the national level. These groupings are aggregated and further broken out by geographic location down to the metro area level.

    There is a lot of information presented here in a pretty raw form.

    I pulled this data while looking for specific info about PT unemployment from the BLS. I've had a couple people tell me lately that PTs have a hard time finding work, and I want to be able to point them toward some hard numbers on the topic.If anyone has something from a government source (and not just what the APTA claims on their website), I would greatly appreciate learning about it.

    Thanks.

    Attached Files:

  37. SalwaGirl

    SalwaGirl

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    Thank you sooo much! This is so helpful. I've been looking into getting into DPT for about two years now and i'm hoping to apply as soon as i've completed my peace corps time. Wish me luck!
  38. jblil

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    I thought of posting this in a new thread, but decided to do it here since this discussion already has a lot of useful info for folks who are considering getting into PT.

    Many members of my extended family are pharmacists, and whenever we have family gatherings we end up discussing pharmacy and the future of pharmacists. According to them, there is now a mismatch between pharmacy grads and job openings. Sign-on bonuses are a thing of the past, starting salaries show sign of stagnation (and may even drift downwards soon) and working conditions are becoming more difficult.

    This article, written in 2010, presciently foresaw what would happen:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3058448/
    Cliff Notes version: Long-held assumptions about the rate of pharmacist job growth are beginning to crumble amid the uncertain health care and economic realities of our times, and yet we, as an academy, continue to perpetrate a rate of unprecedented growth that has reached alarming proportions and shows no signs of abating.(...) One need not be a statistician to recognize the looming mismatch between the number of graduates and the number of vacant positions in the not-too-distant future.

    You only need to browse the discussions in the Pharmacy or Optometry sections of SDN to get a feel for what's happening now in those fields.

    IMO, we are starting to see the same situation with PT schools. I went onto the APTA site and counted all existing and accredited PT schools. There are 205 at this time. Assuming an average of 50 students in each graduating class, then 10,250 newly-minted PTs enter the workforce each year. On top of that, PT schools are sprouting up like mushrooms after a heavy rain. In my state alone (NC), I know of 2 new DPT programs opening up either this year or the next: High Point Univ., and Campbell Univ. I am sure the same happens in many other states. True, there will be PTs who retire, but injecting 10,000 new grads into the profession each year will inevitably cause a shift in the supply and demand curves.

    So what are the implications?
    - If you are considering going into this field, be mindful of the college costs, and keep in mind your future salary. There is a current discussion on this very board about a person who blithely applied to PT school without thinking of either. The wake-up was, shall I say, brutal.
    - If you are interviewing, bring this up as a concern with the faculty members whom you talk to. Since every other applicant spouts the same threadbare items from Vision 2020, the interviewer will certainly remember you as someone who put in a little more thought when you considered the profession.
    - If you are a current student -like me-, there is not a whole lot we can do... In for a penny, in for a pound. I'd seriously consider doing a residency to gain additional skills and differentiate myself from the other 10,000 grads.

    Plan for the worst, and hope for the best.
  39. Azimuthal

    Azimuthal Ninja Zombie Slayer

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  40. Myosin

    Myosin

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    It's amazing you posted this, because I have a friend in pharmacy school who was just telling me about how much growth there is as a way of justifying the almost $300k loans (college and grad) he has taken out.

    I constantly hear about how in demand PTs are, but at the same time, you also hear about how every school is getting record numbers of applications and many are actually increasing the number of seats they give out each year. This isn't likely to change anytime soon.

    Fast forward your data 20 years and you've got a massive number of new people in this profession. The salary is already stagnate in many areas, so it leads me to believe it will at some point become a race to the bottom with starting salary as more people are competing for jobs
  41. jblil

    jblil

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    Myosin - does your friend read the discussions in the Pharmacy section of SDN? :) But even then, cognitive dissonance can be used to tune out what one doesn't want to hear. According to the pharmacists in my family, you can still get a fairly well-paying job as a pharmacist. However, you'd need to move to the boonies or to relatively "unsafe" areas such as the towns along the US-Mexico border. And it won't get better until pharmacy schools stop pumping out graduates like cupcakes. A harbinger of decline was the appearance of "for-profit" pharmacy schools, the main goal of which is returning profits to their investors or shareholders.

    As for our own PT field, I think we'll see the repercussion much earlier than in 20 years. I'm glad most of us are already in PT school or entering within the next couple of years. And there are no "for-profit" PT schools yet - that I know of.

    If I may give some advice (this will be my 4th career and I have tire tracks on my back from the first 3...): specialize, find a niche, do something to set yourself apart from the other grads. And once you have a few years' experience, consider teaching. With the number of PT schools opening up, that'd be job security! My ideal job would be split 50-50 between practicing and teaching. And only 4 days a week, please.
  42. Azimuthal

    Azimuthal Ninja Zombie Slayer

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    My brother is in pharmacy school - his "o-****o-meter" went off hearing about the classes before his having difficulty finding jobs. Both my cousins are pharmacists and it took them 1-2 years to obtain full time positions while being fill-ins at Kaiser. They had to use family connections within their hospital just to start off per-diem/on-call. That's just a few anecdotes, take it with a grain of salt.

    I too, worry about the future of our profession and over saturation.
  43. nazmar

    nazmar

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    That's scary. Should someone like me be concerned? I plan on attending PT school in ~2017..
  44. okramango

    okramango

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    Thanks for all of the valuable info and advice that you post on here. As much as I love PT, I don't think I would be going into this field if I had not been accepted to the low cost programs where I applied. There's no way I'd pay what it seems many of the people on these boards are paying, given the future salary outlook. I'm already thinking about my future niche and how i will set myself apart. I like your 50-50 idea between teaching and practicing. Do you plan to get a PhD for the teaching part, or just teaching clinical classes through your doctorate degree?
  45. jblil

    jblil

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    If you plan to go to PT school in 2017, I assume you're in undergrad now. If so, keep your options open, in case you have to change course. For ex., do NOT major in Kinesiology or Exercise Science as you won't be able to make a decent living with those degrees. All they do is prepare you for grad school. Instead, major in something else (business, biology, etc) and take all the pre-req courses for PT. And while you're at it, take Orgo too in case you want to go for med school.

    Keep your eyes and ears open, and get info from several sources. Every so often Yahoo News runs articles about the "best careers for the next 10 years". If you believe what they write, I have a bridge in the Sahara I want to sell you. The same applies to articles from APTA since it's an obviously biased source. IMO the best source of info is talking to a lot of PTs (which would help with your networking, too) and discussion boards like this one.
  46. jblil

    jblil

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    Okra - I once wanted to do a PhD alongside, or after, the DPT. My school has an informal dual track for that. But lately I have been getting cold feet... The thought of spending another 3-4 years in school, working on one very very specific area, does not appeal to me. I jokingly told my advisor in PT school that if I did a PhD, it will be on the MSK pathologies of the big toe of the right foot - how's that for specialization? :)

    My plan now is to find an area of convergence between my old careers (mech. engineering & software) and PT, and come up with some device to make life easier for our patients, or for us PTs. Something along the line of this (but geared towards PT), which just received FDA approval:
    http://ryortho.com/breaking/iphone-app-detects-possible-concussions/
    Last edited: 03.02.13
  47. nazmar

    nazmar

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    Thanks for your advice, jblil. Keeping my options open is something I've been trying to do, since I have the tendency to look towards the worst scenario, which luckily is a bit easier since a lot of health careers require, for the most part, parallel prerequisites.

    In regards to your suggestions about majors, am I on the wrong track as a Psychology major?
  48. jblil

    jblil

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    I am not qualified to say whether you're on the wrong track or not, as I do not know your individual situation and circumstances. But I am sure that job opportunities for folks with only a B.A. in Psychology are pretty poor. You'd need at least a Master's to make halfway decent money. In fact, if you're interested in Psy, visit the Psychology forums on SDN and ask a few questions there. I am sure there'll be well-informed folks who can help you out.
  49. NewTestament

    NewTestament

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    A BA in psychology is pretty weak as jblil pointed out. You need to get a master's and ideally specialize in PTSD, especially with all the troops coming home. Then you could make a living. You'd be better off becoming a psychiatrist as an MD.

    Kevin
  50. Myosin

    Myosin

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    Once again you hit another nail on the head. He is, in fact, going to a for profit pharmacology school, and also went to a for profit college, which is why he's at roughly 300k in debt right now.

    At that point, your interest alone is going to be a quarter of your salary. What happens when you want a car, house, kids, wedding, or even something to eat not off the dollar menu?

    I am absolutely terrified of going to pt school because of this same thing. My debt wont' be anywhere near that because i have no undergrad debt and a good chunk in the bank, but debt is still debt.

    I constantly hear about how in demand pts are in my area, but just to test that, I check around my area for job listing for pts, and there's never anything besides >3 years experience or the same crap traveling pt company that no one ever responds to because they pay peanuts.

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