Starting Salary for DPT new-grads

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I noticed that there are several new entries from 2013 grads in the survey results:
http://dptfinances.wordpress.com/2012/07/10/hello-world/

If you are graduating soon or are currently interviewing for jobs, take a look at the spreadsheet to evaluate your offer. I believe most people are still "leaving money on the table" by not negotiating their pay.

Once you get a firm offer, please fill out the survey. It'll help those who graduate after you.

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THIS.
Before I went to PT school, I used to get sick over reading negative comments about debt, etc etc...but in the end, I had to make that final decision and not let anonymous people sway my major life choices. So yes, be informed but sometimes you just gotta jump.

We're not trying to sway you, we're just letting you know what the costs are of obtaining a DPT. In the end, it's your decision.
 
We're not trying to sway you, we're just letting you know what the costs are of obtaining a DPT. In the end, it's your decision.

That's definitely cool. My point was that I reached a moment where I realized the internet had made me not want to do anything. I panicked until I realized that I actually did want to do PT after all. :laugh:
 
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I looked at all the salaries as posted by RCG's negotiated or not, region/setting specific, but what is truly crucial, additionally+++++++= is gender specific data. We need a field that states Male/Female right after the earned wages...Id be very curious, age too would be helpful.
 
vsl05 - sorry, I am not going to modify the survey.

Gender: this field is about 75% female.
Age: most new-grads are between 25-30 y-o.
I fail to see how adding these details would be useful to the majority of new grads who need this info to gauge or negotiate their starting salary.

Feel free to design and publish your own survey.
 
Gender: this field is about 75% female.

Do you think this still holds true right now? Seems like it could be a touch high...

And to be fair, if you want to talk about average salaries, in almost all fields they are higher for males than females, due largely to a higher number of females working part-time, and possibly other factors. Perhaps the difference isn't as large for new grads in their first job, who are all more likely to be working full time, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was still a (significant?) difference.
 
Do you think this still holds true right now? Seems like it could be a touch high...

I have been looking for a breakdown of male vs female PTs currently in the workforce, but haven't found one yet. The DPT classes at my school run pretty consistently 70% to 80% females.

And to be fair, if you want to talk about average salaries, in almost all fields they are higher for males than females, due largely to a higher number of females working part-time, and possibly other factors.

True, but the survey was designed to help new PT grads gauge and negotiate the starting pay for their very first PT job. That is why I decided to ignore age and gender. I don't know about you, but I tend to ditch any survey that takes me more than 10-15 secs to fill out or that asks too many questions.
 
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I have been looking for a breakdown of male vs female PTs currently in the workforce, but haven't found one yet. The DPT classes at my school run pretty consistently 70% to 80% females.

Ya I have seen that at a few schools I've looked at...some are a bit closer to even...for example NAU says the class admitted last year was 40% male, 60% female, and the percentages were almost exactly the same for all the students who applied. I think as time goes on the profession is getting and will get closer to an even gender distribution. That seems to be the case in most other "ancillary healthcare" jobs as they like to call them, which started out being mostly women and are now shifting (as is the physician population becoming less heavily male dominated). 30 years ago everybody lost their minds if a male nurse walked into the room...


I don't know about you, but I tend to ditch any survey that takes me more than 10-15 secs to fill out or that asks too many questions.

Yep true :laugh:
 
80:20 female:male in ours. The highest male percentage within the program, ever. Seems to be the trend.
 
It's about 60:40 F:M in my program, but it's 80:20 F:M in the OT program, if not higher.
 
I read somewhere that the SLP master's at ASU has 70-some people and only 1 of them is a guy...
 
That's just weird to me. Maybe it's just the state I am in (Utah), but my school is majority guys and every clinical site I have been to has had by far more guy PT's than female PT's
 
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Can PTs make more money working in rural or underserved areas?
 
Yes, just got an email from a recruiter: outpatient setting in Alaska, $8,500 monthly and they pay for your apartment & car.
 
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Can PTs make more money working in rural or underserved areas?

Probably. I updated the charts and added a 2012-2013 comparison on the work location (large city, mid-size city, small town, etc).

DPTinFL - is that job in Anchorage or Fairbanks? Or do you have to stay in an igloo somewhere?
 
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Not Anchorage or Fairbanks. I think it's by where they film Discovery's "deadliest catch". It's a good gig for someone that loves the outdoors and doesn't mind the cold. It says make your own schedule too.
 
Just wanted to say thanks jblil for your work in putting this together! I am a new grad currently fielding job offers and I have been inspired by this thread to negotiate for higher pay. I'll be sure to post my results once I've made my choice.
 
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Did the clinical experience anyone received while in PT school (clinical locations, settings, number of weeks, length of time) play a role in helping you find a job or negotiate a higher salary?
 
My last rotation used a lot of Maitland. This was very helpful in securing a job in outpatient ortho.
 
Did the clinical experience anyone received while in PT school (clinical locations, settings, number of weeks, length of time) play a role in helping you find a job or negotiate a higher salary?

One of my clinicals ended up being the place that I found employment upon graduation. I discussed salary a little, and was happy that we negotiated together. Although I didn't get what I wanted, I felt it was fair for the area and for me being a new grad.
 
Yes, just got an email from a recruiter: outpatient setting in Alaska, $8,500 monthly and they pay for your apartment & car.

You're moving to Alaska from Florida? I admire your courage.

Keep in mind the COL in Alaska is astronomical. A gallon of non-organic cow's milk cost $9!
 
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I hope this thread is read by prospective PT students so they realize what they are getting into.

One thing that I find potential students often don't realize: as PTs, your per-patient earnings are capped by how much Medicare and private insurance companies are willing to pay. Unlike lawyers or plastic surgeons who can pretty much charge what they want (provided they're really good), PTs have a built-in ceiling on their earnings. And Medicare reimbursements are continuously being squeezed - just ask any PT who has been in the business for 5 years or more. You could make more money by seeing more patients, but at some point you will either run out of time, ruin your own health, or stray into unethical areas. You could also work with self-pay patients and charge what you want, but then you'd have to have your own practice. And that market is a lot smaller than that of Medicare- or privately-insured patients.
 
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It's no different than 90% of the jobs out there, assuming your not a business owner: you're salary is capped by how much your boss is willing to pay you or by how many hours you are able to/want to work, or a combination of the two. If being a working class stiff like the rest of the world for at least the first half of your career doesn't jive with you, PT is not the career to go into.
 
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Maybe this was mentioned somewhere along the thread, but it's worth saying. Don't just look at the number. There are so many factors that make up compensation, especially for PTs (and even more so for new grads). Look at the total package and value of what your job will help you with your career to come. My first job (2013 grad) has helped me tremendously with CEs and mentoring. That stuff is kinda invaluable at this point because they made me such a better PT. Its solidifying my career stability by improving my skills.
 
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Maybe this was mentioned somewhere along the thread, but it's worth saying. Don't just look at the number. There are so many factors that make up compensation, especially for PTs (and even more so for new grads). Look at the total package and value of what your job will help you with your career to come. My first job (2013 grad) has helped me tremendously with CEs and mentoring. That stuff is kinda invaluable at this point because they made me such a better PT. Its solidifying my career stability by improving my skills.
Yes, that's true. And it was mentioned previously on the thread. But when it comes down to brass tax, the simplest/quickest way to estimate what quality of life you will be able to provide yourself and your family as a PT comes down to "what will my salary be?" Especially for a non-trad prospective PT like myself. I make 50k/yr now not as a PT. When I complete PT school, my loans will be 850/month for the next 15 years. That means just to break even, or maintain my current financial situation, I would have to make at least 65k/yr to pay those loans. At 65k I would be in no better or worse financial position. I would only start to see financial gains above 65k. And how much more than that can I expect to make realistically? Well, that's where this survey helps.
Cheers
 
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I knew that this day would come, but it happened quicker than I thought: a for-profit college is offering an on-line DPT program...

http://www.tn.gov/thec/Divisions/AcademicAffairs/rttt/report_card/2014/report_card/South College 2014.pdf

One step closer to saturation.

http://www.southcollegetn.edu/areas...tor-of-physical-therapy/accreditation-status/

"South College is seeking accreditation of a new physical therapist education program from CAPTE. The program submitted an Application for Candidacy on June 1, 2014, which is the formal application required in the pre-accreditation stage. CAPTE acted to deny candidacy for the program on November 12, 2014, and at the request of South College, will reconsider this decision during an onsite review in March 2015. If the decision to deny is reversed, the program will be granted candidacy status and will be able to matriculate students and start classes in June 2015 as planned. If on reconsideration the original decision is upheld, then the decision to deny candidacy will be final unless the program appeals that decision to an Appeal Panel appointed by the APTA Board of Directors and the Appeals Panel finds that the decision to deny should not stand. Achievement of Candidate for Accreditation status is required prior to implementation of the professional phase of the program; therefore, no students may be enrolled in professional courses until Candidate for Accreditation status has been achieved. Further, though achievement of Candidate for Accreditation status signifies satisfactory progress toward accreditation, it does not assure that the program will be granted accreditation."

Lets hope like heck they are denied again in March. I have a sneaking suspicion though that they will do what they need to do to sneak by the requirements for candidacy by the skin of their teeth and end up matriculating students either this cycle or next cycle. I wonder if people have actually applied? :scared: :scared:

The opening up of schools at for profit institutions in other fields such as pharmacy and law marked the begging of the end for the job markets of those professions. Sadly it almost certainly will for physical therapy as well. The pharmacy academy and the law academy did absolutely nothing whatsoever to stop it, and the PT academy won't either. Where there is money to be made and an endless supply of willing students, there is not much that will stop a bubble from forming, growing larger and larger, and ultimately bursting.

@Watson27 actually just mentioned the South College program in another thread earlier today (http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...are-only-2-5-years-long.934447/#post-16049368).

Like I said in that thread, all I can do is hope that those of us who are not yet PTs are all out of school and comfortably practicing by the time the proverbial economic crap truly hits the fan.
 
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Thanks for posting this! I am very concerned with saturation BUT I have to applaud this school's willingness to reach other types of learners. Sure, you could argue it's all profit driven....who knows the true motivation. But, PT schools need to embrace new styles of teaching. Pharmacy schools, nursing schools, law schools all have more flexible ways to do schooling. I cannot explain how hard it is for some excellent candidates to even get into school and make it work. (Evening classes, weekend classes, quarter system, online classes where possible, condensed labs). In my case, I lived in a fairly remote area for a long time. I couldn't move because of family limitations, I have little kids but I did a masters online and it was awesome. I worked full time, studied after kids went to bed. I traveled to the campus a few times to finish. I also think students want to work/need to work.... they want to cut down the debt....so why not have more flexible programs to allow that, even if they are longer? The for profit schools stepped up to fill a true need for many....especially the military community. Public schools followed but it took a while. (Talking about undergrad schools here).

Sorry for the random post but I continue to be a frustrated by the PT schools and how stuck in tradition they seem.
 
I am all for reaching all types of learners, esp. the folks who cannot attend classes during the daytime. However, I have 2 major reservations with South College or other programs of that ilk:

1. PT classes are very hands-on; South College offers an "accelerated 2-year curriculum (...) with quarterly on-site labs." I wonder how much hands-on skills its students will be able to absorb in that short a time frame. If anything, I think a distance program should be longer than an on-site one.

2. South College is a for-profit institution. Its prime responsibility would be to make money for its investors; and since it is not quoted on the stock market, its workings are completely opaque. We do not know who the investors are, what is the school's detailed budget, how much money it spends on staff's salary or equipment, how much profit it makes, etc. I have the nagging suspicion that education at South College is secondary to turning a profit.

If South College gets pre-accredited in 3/2015, I think we can expect to see more for-profit PT schools opening up. I don't regret having gone back to school for the degree, but I would advise folks who are 2-3 years away from applying to think really hard and scope the market very carefully before pulling the trigger.
 
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Sure, you could argue it's all profit driven....who knows the true motivation.

Let's be realistic: it's profit driven. They aren't trying to open a PT school out of the goodness of their hearts. Trying to make a profit is not wicked or evil or something, everyone has to make money. But those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.

I totally feel for students who have difficult family circumstances that make moving for school tough. But I have to agree with everything @jblil said.

And in my personal experience, I believe that online schooling does not provide as high quality of an education as a traditional format does. I know you have lots of evidence to disprove that notion, but it has repeatedly been my experience that it is easier to make it through a class without really learning something when you go to college online. Obviously I can't say from experience if this is the case with online PT classes. But it has certainly been the case with every online undergraduate class that I have taken or watched my friends and family take.
 
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I guess it's a good thing I'll be entering the job market in a few months. But hopefully jblil's dire predictions don't come true. The last thing we need is a bunch of unqualified PT's to enter the market, depress wages, and make it hard for competent PT's to find a job.

Many of my classes are online, but we also spend a lot of time in lab practicing hands-on skills. I simply don't see how CAPTE could ever accredit a PT program that is entirely online, and only takes two years to earn a DPT! I predict CAPTE will reject this school again. If they have any brains, they will understand that a student physical therapist must have adequate time to practice skills before he treats patients. If CAPTE approves this school, it will seriously undermine the value of a DPT. In fact, it will be a joke.
 
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I predict CAPTE will reject this school again

I seldom wish for bad things to happen to anyone, but I'm making an exception in this case. Like you, I hope CAPTE will have enough balls to say "no" to this joke of a program.
 
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And I hope employers don't hire DPT's who have never spent time actually practicing skills. Will this program include rotations?
 
The marketing blurb mentions "Structured and collaborative clinical education experiences provided nationwide with skilled Clinical Faculty" so I assume the program will include clinicals.

One other thing that just popped into my mind: if that program is accredited, one can earn a "doctorate" via an accelerated curriculum + online classes. Whiff of a diploma mill? I wouldn't be surprised if the DPT degree suffers by association.
 
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Heck why don't we all just get our DPT at University of Phoenix online in 18 months and call it a day...because clearly receiving a high quality education is not an important part of becoming a PT anymore :rolleyes:
 
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why don't we all just get our DPT at University of Phoenix online in 18 months

Ah, you forgot the credit we could earn for "life experience"... That should cut down the time required for a DPT to 12 months!
 
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I was talking to a 3rd year pt student about his upcoming job prospects. He mentioned he was going to do traveling pt and was expecting $120k for the year. Does this seem right/possible? Seems like an awesome offer! If that's the case (he isn't one to bs) it seems like you boys are aren't sitting too badly.
 
Can you ask him for the name of his dealer? I'll have whatever he's smoking/drinking...
 
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If I were to ever speak to a PT who graduated from an online program and later had a friend/family member/homeless person say they were going to said online grad for treatment, I would chase them away myself with a flaming pitchfork. I graduate in 2016 and hope to whoever's up there that I can at least solidify myself and be able to earn a respectable wage when (not if) the educational bubble bursts.
 
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From Mike Jones, the admission coordinator at South College:

"I greatly appreciate hearing of the experiences of others who have completed their first professional PT education through hybrid/blended learning models, and, Kasey, you have described much of what we are hoping to achieve. It cannot be overstated, though, that the South College DPT program is absolutely NOT delivered entirely online. As noted in previous posts, our students will have 10-15 days of intense onsite lab instruction and practice every quarter. We fully embrace the notion that our profession is indeed a hands-on profession by nature and we have no desire to water down our equipping of students for this necessary element. Thanks again for your participation in this discussion."

If this is a hybrid program, why don't they just call it a hybrid program, like NOVA's? I'm a big fan of hybrid programs, as they allow qualified candidates who can't be a full-time student to eventually become a PT.

Mike Walker, the director, says:

I appreciate everyone's concern for our profession in general and DPT education specifically, so let me start by saying I share and applaud your concerns. As program director for the South College DPT Program, I can also assure you there is a lot of misinformation being presented here. Allow me to dispel some of it with facts: 1) We have 96 weeks of academic time packed into 2 years - equivalent to 3 academic years (according to Dept of Education), longer than some existing programs, and meeting CAPTE requirements. 2) We are NOT an online program that manufactures DPTs through self-study. We are a hybrid learning model that uses daily faculty interactions in asynchronous and synchronous online learning activities, then reinforces this learning with onsite lab intensives for hands on and clinical reasoning skill development. These models are in existence and have been demonstrated in medical and PT schools to be equally effective in educating students. If hybrid learning is so bad, why are so many programs trying to integrate these practices into their curricula? 3) We have approximately 600 hours of dedicated hands-on lab time, certainly on par or surpassing many existing programs. 4) We have 31 weeks of structured clinical education using EIM's Clinical Excellence Network with many leading clinicians serving as clinical faculty. As PD, I will know what students are learning, when they are learning it, a how it is being taught throughout their clinical experience. 5) My faculty consists of many prior military therapists that spent careers in advanced practice settings that paved the way for where we are as a profession. We know how to teach and practice in direct access, primary care roles and will in no way jeopardize where we are as a profession. 6) My faculty consists of leading researchers, scholars, and evidence based practitioners in the profession. We have either lead or joined the charge (in practice, research, and in policy) in integrating advanced practices (i.e., manipulation, dry needling, direct access) into our profession's scope of practice. Again, the presence of this program will NOT jeopardize these practices in the least. And 7) as Mike Jones has eloquently pointed out, we are committed to solving, not contributing towards, the student debt crisis (and yes, even as a for profit institution). Student debt is out of control (in part, thanks to many of those "not for profit" schools that continue to lengthen programs and raise tuition costs). We are accelerating our program (not cutting out content) with the specific intention of reducing the cost to individual students. Bottom line - students now have a clear choice in how they would like to pursue their DPT education. The South College DPT program is NOT for everyone! I understand and respect that. But those wanting to receive a QUALITY education through an innovative, rigorous, and yes, accelerated program, will soon have the ability to do so. I am proud of the program, curriculum and faculty we have built. All of them have nothing but the utmost respect for and passion in our profession. We will simply let our program, faculty, and student outcomes eventually speak for themselves.

This was a conversation on a Facebook page called 'Doctor of Physical Therapy Students.'
 
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@NewTestament Where did they post that statement? If it is truly a hybrid program, they can't possible expect CAPTE to grant them candidacy if they intend to have a 2-year program. Isn't Nova's program 4 years? South College estimates $81k for their current program. Seems like they could easily make more money if they extend the length. What's the advantage for them having such a short program?
 
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What's the advantage for them having such a short program?

Easier to convince students to matriculate if it is short? Idk just guessing.

Something is definitely not adding up about this whole South College story. Why don't they just shoot straight and say what they actually are trying to accomplish?
 
Novas hybrid is part time....the credit loads are much lower. Perhaps this will just be a full credit load plus full loads over the summer (many schools have a lighter load this semester so that seems like an obvious target)
 
The problem I found personally with the hybrid programs was that the labs met so often, you practically had to live in the area. I had no problem coming for 2 weeks at a time but I couldn't travel across the country every single month.
 
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Screwtape - Thanks for the link. However the info they posted is not stratified by years of experience. A seasoned travel PT with several years of experience can certainly make a 6-fig salary. But your friend is a new grad and expecting 120K out of the gate... That won't happen.

Also, if you look at the tiny print below the pay info (on Onward Health's website), it says that the "travel salary is the total package pay", without specifying what is in the package. It would be to their advantage to inflate the numbers (e.g., by including lodging allowance), to attract PTs to their company. Because of that bias, I don't consider it an accurate or reliable source of info.
 
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