Starting to worry...

[Superfruit89]

Let's say I applied to 50-55 programs across the country, but I've received only one interview invite.....

Is it time to worry?

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[xrthopeful]

If you only applied to 50 it's because you thought (or were told) that you are a superstar Rad Onc candidate and could afford to be picky where you applied. Your app is good and the interviews will come, it's still quite early.

 

[radoncopotamus]

I'm in the same boat as you. I applied to about 50-55 programs and only have 2 so far. I know/hope more will come, but I can't help but be a little anxious as I see programs I thought I would be competitive for have already sent out invites.

 

[synchro_tr0n]

A significant chunk of the programs websites I looked at said they don't send interviews till november

 

[laserbeams]

At this time last year, I had two interview invitations. I ended up receiving a total of eleven interview invitations, 3 of which arrived in October, 4 in November and 4 in December. I applied to ~75 programs and was a somewhat below average applicant in many of the metrics you've read about (board scores, grades, number of research projects).

It can be hard to stay calm when you hear about how competitive the field is, and when you see all your friends applying to IM/EM/Surgery/Peds scooping up a ton of interviews. I'm sure that Google Doc doesn't help, either. Stay calm and focused -- things will probably work out!

 

[o81hu4ng]

I don't think you have anything to worry about at this point SuperFruit89. I myself am an extreme worrier but I know it's not good for me or anyone so here's my attempt at making you feel better.

1) I believe the median program aims for only interviewing 15-ish applicants per spot they have available. Besides maybe a couple of very desirable spots, the majority of the 24 institutions that have given out invites are not top-tier places, and you inevitably will have these top-tier applicants who currently occupy those spots cancel and rebook for a higher tier place. You will not have these cancellations until the fancy-places start sending out invites, which is actually fairly soon. If you don't believe me, start asking your classmates in ophthalmology. While most programs started giving out invites a good month ago, applicants are now reshuffling around and "regular people" on are finally getting invites now.

2) If you're worried about not getting invites to programs that you view as less-prestigious, you have to bear in mind that nice places to live without big reputations are much, much more competitive than you think. If you didn't get an invite say to California Pacific or Kaiser Los Angeles, just keep in mind that a lot of smart people will happily sacrifice prestige to be back with their family and friends or be in an amazing city with good weather for 5-years of their life... and these programs know that and they tend to target people with ties to the area. Don't worry at all about not getting invites to these places as I doubt you're from either place. Which leads me to...

3) I'll bet you're in the north-east and regional bias is VERY REAL. If I mapped out where I have interview invites currently, you would see a very obvious pattern on the map because they're all around where I was raised and did my undergrad, around my away rotations, and my home program. I have basically nothing outside of that zone right now. It's likely you're in the north-east where most of their invites haven't come out so you can totally relax and watch them flood in in the next few weeks.

4) From your avatar, it looks like you're female. This is a big deal in rad onc where guys outnumber girls 2:1. You might be scared right now, but come rank-list day when programs are trying to balance their guy:girl ratio, you're going to feel very special.

Hopefully you feel better and can have a nice night of rest .

 

[baculum1]

I don't know why people apply to fewer programs like that. It makes no sense to me. I received similar advice and i did not take it. The truth is many current faculty have no idea how competitive the field has gotten. Heard plenty of stories from current faculty about how they switched into the field back in the day by walking down the hall and knocking on the chairman's door. I don't think any of us can afford to be picky in this field but maybe that's just my paranoia. I applied to all programs and have four interviews thus far. I'm worried as well so i guess it's all relative for us all.

 

[ramsesthenice]

I don't know why people apply to fewer programs like that. It makes no sense to me. I received similar advice and i did not take it. The truth is many current faculty have no idea how competitive the field has gotten. Heard plenty of stories from current faculty about how they switched into the field back in the day by walking down the hall and knocking on the chairman's door. I don't think any of us can afford to be picky in this field but maybe that's just my paranoia. I applied to all programs and have four interviews thus far. I'm worried as well so i guess it's all relative for us all.

Because applying to every program makes no sense. It might make you feel better but you are mostly just throwing money away. No one is a good fit for every program. If you feel like you need to apply everywhere then you probobly don't have the best numbers and are unlikely to get into top programs. Beyond that, there are a lot of other issues. If you have a ton of basic science research (MD/PhDs) then your chances of interviewing at pure clinical programs is low at best. Likewise, not very fruitful to apply to strong research programs if you don't have a strong research back ground.

Worse than all of that is regional bias effect. Programs only have a few spots and it costs a lot of money to interview and recruit. Even mid-tier programs are going to be quite selective. They are looking for people who are a good fit who are likely to want to be there. That usually means have good numbers, experience that matches their training program, or they have some regional connection to that area. We are a good mid-tier program that tends to, if anything, over invite (too many people per spot). Still, we rarely offer many interviews to average or less applicants who do not have an obvious connection to the area or reason to be here. That practice is very normal.

You should all try to relax now. Its likely that most of the places that will be most interested in you as an applicant havn't sent out invites yet. Things will pick up

 

[baculum1]

"If you feel like you need to apply everywhere then you probobly don't have the best numbers and are unlikely to get into top programs. Beyond that, there are a lot of other issues."

You're assuming a lot there As i said, i was told to apply to 40-50 and ignored it because I'm paranoid, risk averse and I am very much open minded to going anywhere. Money is not an issue at all when you're talking about the difference between a few hundred dollars when it comes to residency applications; it didn't seemed like a situation where saving a few bucks here and there made much sense. For what it's worth as well, half my interviews are in places where i have no geographical connection but I'm still excited and very much looking forward to checking it out. I'll go anywhere that wants to meet me. My number one goal is matching. Every year the number of target application is increasing. This is no different for other competitive fields. My derm friends applied to all programs as well and ophthalmology people i know i applied to mostly all programs. Anyways, that's just my thinking.

 

[xrthopeful]

"If you feel like you need to apply everywhere then you probobly don't have the best numbers and are unlikely to get into top programs. Beyond that, there are a lot of other issues."

You're assuming a lot there As i said, i was told to apply to 40-50 and ignored it because I'm paranoid, risk averse and I am very much open minded to going anywhere. Money is not an issue at all when you're talking about the difference between a few hundred dollars when it comes to residency applications; it didn't seemed like a situation where saving a few bucks here and there made much sense. For what it's worth as well, half my interviews are in places where i have no geographical connection but I'm still excited and very much looking forward to checking it out. I'll go anywhere that wants to meet me. My number one goal is matching. Every year the number of target application is increasing. This is no different for other competitive fields. My derm friends applied to all programs as well and ophthalmology people i know i applied to mostly all programs. Anyways, that's just my thinking.

Well when this guy starts canceling some of the interviews he got because he applied to programs below his threshold of interest, then the rest of the applicants will start getting more love, lol.

 

[Sheldor]

Because applying to every program makes no sense. It might make you feel better but you are mostly just throwing money away. No one is a good fit for every program. If you feel like you need to apply everywhere then you probobly don't have the best numbers and are unlikely to get into top programs. Beyond that, there are a lot of other issues. If you have a ton of basic science research (MD/PhDs) then your chances of interviewing at pure clinical programs is low at best. Likewise, not very fruitful to apply to strong research programs if you don't have a strong research back ground.

Worse than all of that is regional bias effect. Programs only have a few spots and it costs a lot of money to interview and recruit. Even mid-tier programs are going to be quite selective. They are looking for people who are a good fit who are likely to want to be there. That usually means have good numbers, experience that matches their training program, or they have some regional connection to that area. We are a good mid-tier program that tends to, if anything, over invite (too many people per spot). Still, we rarely offer many interviews to average or less applicants who do not have an obvious connection to the area or reason to be here. That practice is very normal.

You should all try to relax now. Its likely that most of the places that will be most interested in you as an applicant havn't sent out invites yet. Things will pick up

Honestly, I was shocked where I ended up getting interviews. The programs I thought I was a genuinely good fit for both geographically/competitively completely ignored me. On the other hand, the 30 programs I applied to just to be safe between 50-80 probably provided 40% of my interview offers.

I've been beating this drum on here for years, but I think it is a ridiculous system we have set up. By everyone applying everywhere we take all roll we play in the "fit" decision, and leave it to the programs to sort out when they all get 200+ applications. If they limited Rad Onc applications to 40-50, life would be so much simpler and better for everyone involved.

 

[thecarbonionangle]

"They are looking for people who are a good fit who are likely to want to be there. That usually means have good numbers, experience that matches their training program, or they have some regional connection to that area"

Yeah like how my home region has completely shut me out and I'm getting invites from other states. *eyeroll*

 

[bob1988]

As a data point, this time last year I had 1 interview invite - I got my second on November 11 last year. I wound up with 11 invites, so everybody take a deep breath and relax. I know how incredibly anxious this time of year is, but much of it is out of your hands so go do something fun

In a few weeks, it won't hurt to email programs where you have a specific interest, people will cancel and spots do free up.

 

[xrthopeful]

Last year there were a TON of second rounds of invites. Part of it was that last year there were two specific dates where it seemed like half the programs offered invites. This necessitated a lot of turned down interview offers which meant they moved down their list for invites

 

[Paxinos]

This happens pretty much every year around this time; applicants start to freak out because they haven't heard much. You're fine. In fact, I didn't get my interview invite for the program I ultimately matched into until December (though that ended up being my last invite; by mid-December things are mostly locked).

Also, 50-60 is definitely a reasonable number of places to apply for; we didn't all have an extra few hundred bucks to spend during 4th year knowing we'd also have to pay for travel to eventual interviews. I eliminated geographical places i knew I'd never choose to live (admittedly, these were few), and places like Harvard where I knew I had no chance of getting an interview, much less matching. I ended up with 10 interviews, which by recent years' standards seems low, but at the time was predicted based on charting the outcomes to predict a match. And it did. I was fortunate that my top 4-5 programs all could have been ranked as my #1 depending on the day and how I was feeling.

Stress is part of the process, but try to let go of the things you have no control over at this point. Look back at similar threads from previous years, and hopefully that will give you further reassurance that this is too early to worry. And enjoy the night after your final interview... I felt like a 4 year weight was lifted off my shoulders. (Some might argue that this comes on Match Day once you know where you match; but I stress a lot less over things once I no longer have direct influence on the result.)

 

[Ray D. Ayshun]

Would it be bad form to contact a PD prior to a program sending invites in order to express particular interest in their program for a reason that might not be obvious in the application? As has been said, it seems we're now in a situation where we're leaving up for interpretation the seriousness of our interest in a particular program given that we're for the most part casting the widest net possible and being happy with whatever bites we get.

 

[Sheldor]

Would it be bad form to contact a PD prior to a program sending invites in order to express particular interest in their program for a reason that might not be obvious in the application? As has been said, it seems we're now in a situation where we're leaving up for interpretation the seriousness of our interest in a particular program given that we're for the most part casting the widest net possible and being happy with whatever bites we get.

I did this and got a few interviews because of it, and ended up matching somewhere where I did this.

 

[ramsesthenice]

Would it be bad form to contact a PD prior to a program sending invites in order to express particular interest in their program for a reason that might not be obvious in the application?

Absolutely. It's a double edged sword but who cares. It will get you some interviews and show you are seriously interested. Some PDs may think it's presumptuous but I think overall it would be a net great idea for you. I know several people it worked out great for.

 

[thesauce]

Programs only have a few spots and it costs a lot of money to interview and recruit.

Do you mean the lunch? Applicants pay all of the travel costs. Plus programs are paid a portion of the ERAS application fees.

 

[medgator]

Do you mean the lunch? Applicants pay all of the travel costs. Plus programs are paid a portion of the ERAS application fees.

Some programs actually pick up your hotel room. Cleveland clinic and Wisconsin do (did?)

 

[thesauce]

Some programs actually pick up your hotel room. Cleveland clinic and Wisconsin do (did?)

Yes, I remember a small number of programs doing that. Still, that's only 15% of programs at most.

 

[radonculous101]

it is a blessing in disguise. If you don't match, don't worry. Honestly, why anyone would go into rad onc is beside me right now. They have expanded residency positions while those of us coming out can't even muster an interview or two. The power that we have given those hiring now is beyond imagineable. I am PGY-5 with 0 job prospects. None, and trust me when I say I am top breed in medicine. You do not want to be part of this market in 2-3 years. Everyone will be doing fellowships then finding jobs that relate nothing to those fellowships which makes this situation much worse than radiology. Med students beware...

 

[medgator]

it is a blessing in disguise. If you don't match, don't worry. Honestly, why anyone would go into rad onc is beside me right now. They have expanded residency positions while those of us coming out can't even muster an interview or two. The power that we have given those hiring now is beyond imagineable. I am PGY-5 with 0 job prospects. None, and trust me when I say I am top breed in medicine. You do not want to be part of this market in 2-3 years. Everyone will be doing fellowships then finding jobs that relate nothing to those fellowships which makes this situation much worse than radiology. Med students beware...

1 post count? Possible fear mongering from a med student posing as a resident?

Yes they've expanded residency slots a lot recently, much more than many of us think is appropriate, but currently, our field is nothing like rads or path in terms of saturation, except maybe in large desirable metro areas on the coasts.

 

[radonculous101]

1 post count? Possible fear mongering from a med student posing as a resident?

Yes they've expanded residency slots a lot recently, much more than many of us think is appropriate, but currently, our field is nothing like rads or path in terms of saturation, except maybe in large desirable metro areas on the coasts.

every year someone posts about fear mongering when someone criticizes the way things are going in our field. I assure you I am not, this is our reality. And fine, if you are interested in some crap location like podunk ohio (it's not just desirable metro areas, its middle tier and small metro areas where nothing is available) then by all means apply, you'll be set. Don't take my word for it, go look at ASTRO jobs [http://careers.astro.org/jobs]. Be sure to ignore the xoft brachy positions

It has gotten bad in rad onc, and you should fully understand this before applying or you will be angry.

 

[medgator]

every year someone posts about fear mongering when someone criticizes the way things are going in our field. I assure you I am not, this is our reality. And fine, if you are interested in some crap location like podunk ohio (it's not just desirable metro areas, its middle tier and small metro areas where nothing is available) then by all means apply, you'll be set. Don't take my word for it, go look at ASTRO jobs [http://careers.astro.org/jobs]. Be sure to ignore the xoft brachy positions

It has gotten bad in rad onc, and you should fully understand this before applying or you will be angry.

There are a few jobs in FL, a couple in NC and AZ even now. ASTRO happened early this year so the big bulk of jobs were listed earlier.

 

[radonculous101]

There are a few jobs in FL, a couple in NC and AZ even now. ASTRO happened early this year so the big bulk of jobs were listed earlier.

Not true, no bulk of jobs materialized this year in the run up to ASTRO, ask PGY-5s. And if Sarasota, Fl or Fort Smith, Arkansas is where you're looking to move then ok, rad onc really is perfect for you. But you'll be competing quite hard even for those jobs, because that is all that is available

 

[SJSM001]

Job prospect worries aside, this post from last year may be helpful. Scroll halfway down.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/only-have-one-interview-so-far.1037393/#post-14561386

 

[JustAdocInBox]

Job prospect worries aside, this post from last year may be helpful. Scroll halfway down.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/only-have-one-interview-so-far.1037393/#post-14561386

Judging from the google doc it seems the majority of programs have already extended invitations for this year.

 

[ReOxygenation]

Train at the top 3. If you are one of those select 20ish, then you will be set. To the rest of us, good luck.

Seriously though, there will be jobs. The timeline is just being pushed back. What used to be Nobember is now March. Worry not, it will end well.

 

[Zeus222]

Not true, no bulk of jobs materialized this year in the run up to ASTRO, ask PGY-5s. And if Sarasota, Fl or Fort Smith, Arkansas is where you're looking to move then ok, rad onc really is perfect for you. But you'll be competing quite hard even for those jobs, because that is all that is available

As a current PGY-5 training at a mid-range program I believe you are a fear mongerer. I've gotten 17 interviews from private jobs (have turned down several already) and it's not even December yet. Also, realize that you're the least qualified at the end of your residency training.

 

[OTN]

As a current PGY-5 training at a mid-range program I believe you are a fear mongerer. I've gotten 17 interviews from private jobs (have turned down several already) and it's not even December yet. Also, realize that you're the least qualified at the end of your residency training.

Damn. That's a lot of job interviews. Makes me feel pretty good about the market overall. Good luck!

 

[ramsesthenice]

I am PGY-5 with 0 job prospects. None, and trust me when I say I am top breed in medicine. You do not want to be part of this market in 2-3 years. Everyone will be doing fellowships then finding jobs that relate nothing to those fellowships which makes this situation much worse than radiology. Med students beware...

Sorry to hear things are so rough for you. I hope something works out.

I am not a PGY5 but the few I am close with are all doing fine with multiple prospects in different states. They are all but 1 from mid tier programs. I would have to agree with Zeus that the OPs situation does not seem to be typical even in this tight market.

 

[itom37]

Can we un-hijack this thread? It's about students applying to residency concerned about their offers at this point. Not about your inability to find a job (with which I wish you luck).