Stay At Home Dad Looking For More

[jdlev]

Hi Guys,

I'm in the process of determining the feasibility of a medical career.

My Background

I'm a stay at home dad right now after deciding to quit my job as the President of a small company (an answering service no less with bout 30 employees) because the work just wasn't fulfilling. I have a 10 month old son and another child due in March. My wife works in a medical field as a PA at the local hospital, and after 3 years is earning close to a six figure salary which is more than enough to support our little family. I'm about 34.5, and finished school with a BA in Business Marketing back before the iPhone was invented. My GPA wasn't anything spectacular at around 3.25.

I've toyed with the idea of going back to school for the last 6-7 years, but have just never worked up the nerve to take the plunge or was constantly dealing with other stuff in life. Early on in the year, we were seriously trying to open a small craft brewery, but ultimately decided against it because the area is becoming saturated with microbreweries, and I had second thoughts about being responsible for hurting someone if a patron decided to drive drunk.

Prerequisites

The first thing I have to knock off is the prerequisites. Hard work and getting good grades doesn't bother me in the least...the exact opposite is the case..I'm a workaholic. Where and when I complete the prerequisites having one kid and another on the way do. With my wife's A/B schedule, the only option to actually attend a school would be a night school that's close that starts after 8pm. Can all of the prerequisites be done online, or at least a combination of online with minimal physical attendance?

Financing

I made decent money until I quit my job, so we have a decent cash reserve, but it wouldn't cover 1/3rd of the cost of medical school alone. I assume that the prerequisite courses could be completed 'relatively' inexpensively online or at a local community college. Beyond that, we'll probably have to take out $200k in financing. Is that too much debt to take on for someone who'll like miss 12-15 years of actively practicing?

Field

I have yet to determine what field I would like to go into. Beyond that, I haven't even decided what title I should shoot for. My wife went to school about 40 miles away to get her PA, but I don't think I would be satisfied with anything less than a DO or MD. I'm in the Charlotte, NC area, and despite being a huge metro area, we don't really have any medical schools that are in our immediate area (though I think UNC Chapel Hill may offer limited classes in our area). I would like to avoid moving my family from place to place every few years. Wake Forest may be a possibility. Are there any other schools within about 1 hour of Charlotte, NC that would be a viable option for medical school? Also, how likely would you be able to find a local residency. I'm sure that probably depends on how specialized you get with what you want to practice, but would like to know 'generally speaking'.

Am I Out Of My Mind

I've been lurking on these forums for a while now, and have read about lots of people who wanted to go back to school in their 30s or even 40s and 50s. I'm really hoping to hear from some people who have actually done it and succeeded. People who switched careers to do something this crazy.

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[wholeheartedly]

Welcome!

Pre-reqs:
It's preferable to take your pre-reqs at a 4 year university. There's debate around here about the acceptability of taking courses at a community college because medical schools want to be sure you can handle rigorous coursework. There are people that have taken pre-reqs for financial or geographic reasons and been successful, but it might limit your options greatly.

Online courses are different beasts altogether and my view is that acceptability of an online course depends on several factors. If it's something like for profit, University of Phoenix type thing that's not likely to be acceptable. If it's an online class through an accredited 4 year university that's better, especially if it doesn't indicate on your transcript in any way that it's an online course.

The other issue is the type of course. Certain courses work better in an online format that others. Most of the pre-reqs like biology, chemistry, organic chemistry, and even physics often have a lab component. This isn't something you can really do online so it's just not feasible.

If a medical school has psychology as a pre-req, well that's probably an ok type of class for an online format.

I believe the MSAR might list whether or not medical schools are ok with online courses, but someone who has the current version will need to verify that.

Financing
Quite a few people finance their entire medical school education with loans and tuition keeps climbing. Whether this ok debt for a nontrad depends on a whole other host of factors unique to you. Some nontrads around here say that it technically doesn't "make sense" financially as a nontrad, so you need to be in it for other reasons. But, I do think taking on that much debt is crazy... and I'm also on track to do just that, so.....

Field
This is a good thing to be looking into, but even before you go there, my first question for you upon reading your thread is why exactly do you think you want to do medicine? You do really get into this at all other than it looks like you're wanting a change. You need a much more concrete and well though out reason to dive into this.

I know your wife is a PA, but I'd suggest before you spend the time and money or dive into classes you spend some time working in a clinical setting with patients and also do some shadowing. Ask good questions when you're shadowing about the pros and cons of working in medicine and about what that persons expectations were vs. the reality.

 

[jl lin]

Sigh:

I'll answer this in one main sentence after this, so that you can get a very basic idea as to whether this is something for you.

Get no less than 2000 clinical hours of direct, patient-family-centered experience in a busy, dirty, smelly, noisy, stress-filled hospital.

 

[Snakes]

Sigh:

I'll answer this in one main sentence after this, so that you can get a very basic idea as to whether this is something for you.

Get no less than 2000 clinical hours of direct, patient-family-centered experience in a busy, dirty, smelly, noisy, stress-filled hospital.

I think this number is a gross over-exaggeration of how many hours at a hospital you need to get an understanding of what it's like to work in the medical field.

 

[Snakes]

To put 2000 hours in perspective as a non-trad--I've volunteered and shadowed at two different hospitals over the last 6 years--two shifts, 4 hours a week per shift. I've got about 2500 clinical hours total. That's over 6 years.

 

[Snakes]

Prerequisites

The first thing I have to knock off is the prerequisites. Hard work and getting good grades doesn't bother me in the least...the exact opposite is the case..I'm a workaholic. Where and when I complete the prerequisites having one kid and another on the way do. With my wife's A/B schedule, the only option to actually attend a school would be a night school that's close that starts after 8pm. Can all of the prerequisites be done online, or at least a combination of online with minimal physical attendance?

Field

I have yet to determine what field I would like to go into. Beyond that, I haven't even decided what title I should shoot for. My wife went to school about 40 miles away to get her PA, but I don't think I would be satisfied with anything less than a DO or MD. I'm in the Charlotte, NC area, and despite being a huge metro area, we don't really have any medical schools that are in our immediate area (though I think UNC Chapel Hill may offer limited classes in our area). I would like to avoid moving my family from place to place every few years. Wake Forest may be a possibility. Are there any other schools within about 1 hour of Charlotte, NC that would be a viable option for medical school? Also, how likely would you be able to find a local residency. I'm sure that probably depends on how specialized you get with what you want to practice, but would like to know 'generally speaking'.

Am I Out Of My Mind

I've been lurking on these forums for a while now, and have read about lots of people who wanted to go back to school in their 30s or even 40s and 50s. I'm really hoping to hear from some people who have actually done it and succeeded. People who switched careers to do something this crazy.

I'm 40 and doing it. Finished my post-bacc over 2 years and taking the MCAT in January. A couple of things you have to consider, though: online classes are frowned upon, and the sciences pre-reqs all require labs anyway, which you can't really do online anyway. This is one of those things that can't be done half-assed.

When my husband and I committed to doing this, he agreed to move if we need to for med school and training. We have kids. We've made all of our moves up to now with them in mind but moving is probably going to be inevitable at some point. As a doctor friend of mine pointed out, you don't have a lot of control over where you get in to medical school or even residency. With residency at least you are listing your viable choices on a list but not matching is a major concern, so it behooves you to list as many places as possible, especially if you are looking at the more competitive residencies. My husband and I made a deal that if I get in to our local medical school, I'll go there so we don't have to move the kids. But he has accepted that all bets are off for residency. This is not like getting an MBA and then finding a job locally. Then after residency you're looking at another move for your job. You might be able to avoid moving but it's best to go into it thinking it's going to happen.

If your wife is a PA you should talk to her. She knows what it's like to be in the medical field. How does she feel about you going to medical school? My husband is completely on-board and there is no way I think I could do this without his 100% support. He's planning to be a stay at home dad once I get into school. Your wife may have mixed feelings about all that med school entails, especially since you're the stay at home dad right now. It's all doable if you have a really supportive spouse. If you don't, it's like courting disaster.

 

[cabinbuilder]

I would like to avoid moving my family from place to place every few years. Wake Forest may be a possibility. Are there any other schools within about 1 hour of Charlotte, NC that would be a viable option for medical school? Also, how likely would you be able to find a local residency. I'm sure that probably depends on how specialized you get with what you want to practice, but would like to know 'generally speaking'.


I think you need to go in with the mentality that most of us did not have the luxury of doing medical school and residency in the same region/area. That is not realistic. Now if you pull it off then more power to you but I would hate for you to be disillusioned that it's the norm - it is not. Your wife as a PA can get a job anywhere you have to go. And it's not every few years. Once for med school. Once for residency. Maybe once more for your region of choice to work.

 

[jsmith522]

Hi Guys,

I'm in the process of determining the feasibility of a medical career.

My Background

I'm a stay at home dad right now after deciding to quit my job as the President of a small company (an answering service no less with bout 30 employees) because the work just wasn't fulfilling. I have a 10 month old son and another child due in March. My wife works in a medical field as a PA at the local hospital, and after 3 years is earning close to a six figure salary which is more than enough to support our little family. I'm about 34.5, and finished school with a BA in Business Marketing back before the iPhone was invented. My GPA wasn't anything spectacular at around 3.25.

I've toyed with the idea of going back to school for the last 6-7 years, but have just never worked up the nerve to take the plunge or was constantly dealing with other stuff in life. Early on in the year, we were seriously trying to open a small craft brewery, but ultimately decided against it because the area is becoming saturated with microbreweries, and I had second thoughts about being responsible for hurting someone if a patron decided to drive drunk.

Prerequisites

The first thing I have to knock off is the prerequisites. Hard work and getting good grades doesn't bother me in the least...the exact opposite is the case..I'm a workaholic. Where and when I complete the prerequisites having one kid and another on the way do. With my wife's A/B schedule, the only option to actually attend a school would be a night school that's close that starts after 8pm. Can all of the prerequisites be done online, or at least a combination of online with minimal physical attendance?

Financing

I made decent money until I quit my job, so we have a decent cash reserve, but it wouldn't cover 1/3rd of the cost of medical school alone. I assume that the prerequisite courses could be completed 'relatively' inexpensively online or at a local community college. Beyond that, we'll probably have to take out $200k in financing. Is that too much debt to take on for someone who'll like miss 12-15 years of actively practicing?

Field

I have yet to determine what field I would like to go into. Beyond that, I haven't even decided what title I should shoot for. My wife went to school about 40 miles away to get her PA, but I don't think I would be satisfied with anything less than a DO or MD. I'm in the Charlotte, NC area, and despite being a huge metro area, we don't really have any medical schools that are in our immediate area (though I think UNC Chapel Hill may offer limited classes in our area). I would like to avoid moving my family from place to place every few years. Wake Forest may be a possibility. Are there any other schools within about 1 hour of Charlotte, NC that would be a viable option for medical school? Also, how likely would you be able to find a local residency. I'm sure that probably depends on how specialized you get with what you want to practice, but would like to know 'generally speaking'.

Am I Out Of My Mind

I've been lurking on these forums for a while now, and have read about lots of people who wanted to go back to school in their 30s or even 40s and 50s. I'm really hoping to hear from some people who have actually done it and succeeded. People who switched careers to do something this crazy.

So I am 38 and have been accepted to medical school this coming summer. So the total of 2000 hours is way out of proportion. I think you could get a good handle on the whole field with a lot less then that through shadowing and some volunteering. I worked for twenty years as a paramedic but I had a good idea of what it was about about 100 hours into my career.

Some of my prerequisites were hybrid classes where the lectures were online and the labs were at the school. They also didn't show on the transcript as online. I know that one of my buddies did his ochem online but his PA program didn't require a lab.

Once you start that whole process you need to talk to an admissions councilor at what ever program you like. I have no idea what programs are out there for you because I am in Colorado, going to a Colorado school and only really applied here in the west except for a couple of New England programs and in the mid west. You also really need to talk to your wife about this whole thing. As a nontrad you will have to find a program that accepts more nontrads. That was the hardest thing for me to figure out a lot of the programs I liked at first had no interest in me. Those programs might require a move, which your wife needs to be on board with.

Once that is all said and done and you know what you want to do then it's all about the exams and apps. But that sounds like a couple of years away anyways. If you do decide on MD/DO then the MCAT is changing this year and that might mean more classes and or a prep class for ya, just an FYI. But have fun it's a long process.

Good luck.

 

[jl lin]

To put 2000 hours in perspective as a non-trad--I've volunteered and shadowed at two different hospitals over the last 6 years--two shifts, 4 hours a week per shift. I've got about 2500 clinical hours total. That's over 6 years.

I hear you, but that 2000 hours is only 5% of the clinical hours I have clocked in over the years; and that is probably a very ultra-conservative estimate. Still, I feel like as close as I have gotten to seeing how things work on the clinical level and having worked closely with a ton of surgical and medical physicians, at the end of the day, I'm still scratching the surface in a number of ways.

One of the biggest issues I am seeing with people in later MS, residency and post-residency is things fall way short of what they had thought it would be--especially in comparison with the "suck-factor" of getting there. 200 hours may be cool with medical schools, but people are doing themselves no favors with such limited exposure. I think the best gift a pre-med could give to herself/himself is no less than a couple thousand hours of direct, clinical experience. Sure, move it around. Don't get it all in one place.

You have done a good job. This is great. You have gone 500 hours over my suggestion. Shadowing too is good; but often you will only get to see things from a limited perspective--depending on who it is with and where it is.

Hopefully, by the time you are in residency or beyond, you will honestly and wholeheartedly feel that the number and kind and quality of hours really helped you to get an good idea about what you had gotten into--and that they had totally served you well.

 

[QofQuimica]

No, you're not out of your mind, but as others have pointed out, you may be a bit out of touch with reality. Getting into med school and residency is a tough, expensive, and competitive process. Unless you're a rock star applicant (and with a 3.25 GPA, you aren't going to be), you probably won't get to call the shots here. Even if you were a rock star applicant, to some extent, they (the med schools and residency programs) still call a lot of the shots. There are just way more people who want to go to med school than there are seats for them all. So the sooner you understand and accept the fact that you're the one in the weaker bargaining position, the less "surprising" some of the sacrifices you're going to have to make will be. Such as, oh, we have to move cross country for med school, and then move again for residency. Or, oh, the local med school won't accept my online credits, so I'm going to have to drive farther away to get my prereqs done. And so on.

While 2000 hours of shadowing is a bit much (I'd say 10% of that is a reasonable amount of clinical experience for the average premed), having some significant amount of time in a clinical setting is an absolute must. You should start getting this experience FIRST, before you spend a single dollar or a single minute on taking coursework. Because as hyperbolic as jl lin's post was, her general point still stands that medical training is not something you want to get sucked into without doing some serious due diligence first.

One final caution: being a workaholic is, IMO, a potentially bad thing for a future physician. As it is, this life can consume and overwhelm you to the point that it is common for health care providers (especially physicians) to burn out, get divorced, have nervous breakdowns, become addicted to drugs/alcohol, and even commit suicide. As you go through training, at least a couple of people whom you know personally, plus several acquaintances, will have these types of issues. Hopefully it won't be you. But if you have the kind of personality that doesn't lend itself well to finding balance in life, you should be aware of the risk up front, and tread down this path very, very carefully.

 

[jl lin]

So I am 38 and have been accepted to medical school this coming summer. So the total of 2000 hours is way out of proportion. I think you could get a good handle on the whole field with a lot less then that through shadowing and some volunteering. I worked for twenty years as a paramedic but I had a good idea of what it was about about 100 hours into my career.

Some of my prerequisites were hybrid classes where the lectures were online and the labs were at the school. They also didn't show on the transcript as online. I know that one of my buddies did his ochem online but his PA program didn't require a lab.

Once you start that whole process you need to talk to an admissions councilor at what ever program you like. I have no idea what programs are out there for you because I am in Colorado, going to a Colorado school and only really applied here in the west except for a couple of New England programs and in the mid west. You also really need to talk to your wife about this whole thing. As a nontrad you will have to find a program that accepts more nontrads. That was the hardest thing for me to figure out a lot of the programs I liked at first had no interest in me. Those programs might require a move, which your wife needs to be on board with.

Once that is all said and done and you know what you want to do then it's all about the exams and apps. But that sounds like a couple of years away anyways. If you do decide on MD/DO then the MCAT is changing this year and that might mean more classes and or a prep class for ya, just an FYI. But have fun it's a long process.

Good luck.

See my reply above. If you get lucky and end up feeling like your amount of clinical exposure was truly enough for you and served you well after all is said and done, that is seriously fabulous.

Many, many people fall out of love from the idea of medicine in relative no time--especially through M3-->residency end. After that, their feelings may change somewhat for the better. Some people just feel that they will live with the career choice after such a huge investment of time and money. But do you know how many people on SDN over the years as well as docs many of us have spoken have become disillusioned and will not enthusiastically or otherwise recommend medicine as a career choice? Some folks call it a calling and others don't. Personally, I tend to think it's a bit of both. I'm simply saying that there is no microscopic minority of people who end up ultimately feeling more than a bit jaded about medicine.

See, everyone worries about jumping through the hoops just to get an acceptance to medical school--and there are a lot already. What people are signing up for though is a very long, expensive, frustrating-at-times road, leading to one's life-work for the rest of their lives--or a good part of them. There are too many chagrin souls heading into or actively involved in medicine. Many of them started out equally as enthusiastic, even absolutely ecstatic about getting into medicine. But like when people fall in love too quickly without getting to know, I mean, really know the other person, it will go on for a while in most cases, but people find that they are living in suppressed or repressed misery. Of course this is not everyone--and hopefully it's not even 40-50%. I don't have the research, and invariably it would end up just being weak or somehow flawed; b/c this hard stuff to measure--kind of like people who are genuinely happy in their marriages. Most people will say they are so, even if they are not. Often that has to do with not really knowing the person deeply enough. And it may well have something to do with the over-estimations in people's heads; as they really think they can hang on no matter what. . .only to find that they cannot or will not.

I don't say do something close to 2000 clinical hours to help your chances of getting into medical school. I say do it to help you to not feel stuck with buyer's remorse. And it will be like time spent with your children--quantity AND quality are vital--both are important.

 

[jl lin]

Q. Hyperbolic amount? OK. But a previous poster has done this and then some. If there is serious quality to those hours as well, she has given to herself a great gift. Of course not everyone can get those hours or anything close to mine without working in direct clinical environments for some time. But even 2-4 hours over 100 weeks collective and not divided is just not going to give most people enough insight. It makes sense after reading or hearing so many chagrin positions on medicine. Sure, they are all just disgruntled know-nothings who just eased their way into medical school and residency. They are all just generally miserable people, who were never excited about pursuing medicine--capricious souls at heart. Nah, I don't think so. If they all looked like this early on, chances are they wouldn't have gotten so far in the process.

 

[chooks]

Many good points above. You definitely want to get some clinical experience (volunteering, shadowing, etc...) before you make a large investment in time/money pursuing this further.

The other item that hasn't really been brought up is to consider the impact on your family and future family planning. People with young kids and a supportive spouse succeed med school all the time, but keep in mind that you will miss some great times with your kids at some very cute ages. Med school is pretty easy schedule wise in the first two years, but thereafter you quickly lose control of your schedule. If you are planning on having more kids then you need to think about how that fits with medical education that is pretty all consuming (again - not so much M1/M2, but certainly residency has very large time/emotional demands).

Medicine is a demanding mistress and it can be tough on the family. If you are a workaholic, the risk is even greater. Marriages/families/friends have all been casualties in those around me in pursuit of medical skills/knowledge, so be careful about not losing sight of what is truly important in your deliberations.

- chooks

 

[jl lin]

Many good points above. You definitely want to get some clinical experience (volunteering, shadowing, etc...) before you make a large investment in time/money pursuing this further.

The other item that hasn't really been brought up is to consider the impact on your family and future family planning. People with young kids and a supportive spouse succeed med school all the time, but keep in mind that you will miss some great times with your kids at some very cute ages. Med school is pretty easy schedule wise in the first two years, but thereafter you quickly lose control of your schedule. If you are planning on having more kids then you need to think about how that fits with medical education that is pretty all consuming (again - not so much M1/M2, but certainly residency has very large time/emotional demands).

Medicine is a demanding mistress and it can be tough on the family. If you are a workaholic, the risk is even greater. Marriages/families/friends have all been casualties in those around me in pursuit of medical skills/knowledge, so be careful about not losing sight of what is truly important in your deliberations.

- chooks

All of the above is totally true. Family is a huge commitment of not only "quality of time," but also of just giving time, in general. That's one of the main things you have to give to your children in particular--and they are moving targets from a developmental standpoint. One phase gets missed, and boom. It's gone. Water through fingers. It always amazes me those parents that seem to think that parenting is this generally benign experience. Blows my mind. It may be easier with one particular child compared with another--or easier at one stage over another; but I cannot say it was an easy, benign experience. I still can't say that. Ten years from now, it may be easier; but it's never been benign.

 

[QofQuimica]

Q. Hyperbolic amount? OK. But a previous poster has done this and then some. If there is serious quality to those hours as well, she has given to herself a great gift. Of course not everyone can get those hours or anything close to mine without working in direct clinical environments for some time. But even 2-4 hours over 100 weeks collective and not divided is just not going to give most people enough insight. It makes sense after reading or hearing so many chagrin positions on medicine. Sure, they are all just disgruntled know-nothings who just eased their way into medical school and residency. They are all just generally miserable people, who were never excited about pursuing medicine--capricious souls at heart. Nah, I don't think so. If they all looked like this early on, chances are they wouldn't have gotten so far in the process.

I don't disagree with you that spending more time in a clinical setting is worthwhile. But one could keep making your argument ad infinitum and never actually get around to making the career transition. At some point, you have to decide whether to change careers or not. Again, I'd argue that around 200 hours of clinical experience, which comes out to four hours per week for a year or two hours per week for two years, is reasonable due diligence for a premed coming from a non-HCP background. Let's face it; until you're actually the one in the trenches, you're not going to get the real experience. So short of requiring every premed to work FT as a nurse or other allied HCP for a year prior to applying to med school (which isn't a half bad idea since it would help ease the nursing shortage too), there's going to be some amount of a leap of faith there that just can't be bridged.

 

[jl lin]

I don't disagree with you that spending more time in a clinical setting is worthwhile. But one could keep making your argument ad infinitum and never actually get around to making the career transition. At some point, you have to decide whether to change careers or not. Again, I'd argue that around 200 hours of clinical experience, which comes out to four hours per week for a year or two hours per week for two years, is reasonable due diligence for a premed coming from a non-HCP background. Let's face it; until you're actually the one in the trenches, you're not going to get the real experience. So short of requiring every premed to work FT as a nurse or other allied HCP for a year prior to applying to med school (which isn't a half bad idea since it would help ease the nursing shortage too), there's going to be some amount of a leap of faith there that just can't be bridged.

LOL. Yep. A lot of truth there. It is just so sad to see so many disenchanted medical students, residents, and physicians. The one thing that seems beneficial is to decrease this by encouraging people to get more direct, clinical exposure. Of course it is only part of the jadedness. But it's real, strong start.

Re: nursing shortage. . .hiring freezes across the board will not allow the eases that are needed. That is to say that shortages still exist in many institutions, but the institutions have been on a big cut-back--downsizing nurses in many, many places since around or after 2008. So economics has become the bigger part of the shortage in more recent years.

People's expectations about medicine IMHO have pretty much always been too high. The let down is huge for many, especially after the gigantic investment of time and money for medicine. LOL, and someone on a nursing site said something about staying in nursing, even with the all suckage (She has no idea, for she is a nursing student right now.) Her rationale was b/c she "is never going back to customer service." I almost FOTFLMAO. Healthcare today has become this huge customer-service-driven area, with all the other stress and baggage of illnesses, treatments, and the struggling across multi-disciplines, while trying to keep people not only alive, but happy.

 

[primadonna22274]

VCOM-Carolinas is 75 miles west of you on I-85 in Spartanburg, SC. Not so far that you couldn't move somewhere midway and split the commute.
I was a PA for 11 years before going back to med school. I gave up that 6-figure income to do it and question my sanity pretty much every day. I work more than twice as much for less than half the salary as a resident physician. And most days I would probably still do it despite the never ending fatigue and constant humbling of how much I still do not know.
One thing I would caution you about is the stress on your wife of being primary financial provider in a demanding job and mother to 2 little ones with a pre-med student and eventual medical student-to-resident husband. I don't have children and I think I if I did I never would have been able to do what I've done. My husband is quite independent and fortunately we don't need each other very much but the strain of long-distance marriage (I went to school 700 miles away for 2 yr then returned to SC for last year of med school and residency) was hard on us. Plenty of times I resented that I was the one working harder (my perception) and more hours (he's a teacher) while he had free time and few responsibilities. Yeah, I grew up, and I'm thankful for his support now, but there's no way I would encourage him to go to med school like I did. Oddly, he's interested in becoming a PA...go figure

 

[QofQuimica]

LOL. Yep. A lot of truth there. It is just so sad to see so many disenchanted medical students, residents, and physicians. The one thing that seems beneficial is to decrease this by encouraging people to get more direct, clinical exposure. Of course it is only part of the jadedness. But it's real, strong start.

My view from the attending side is that a big part of physicians' discontent in medicine is that they spend too much and therefore work too much. It's bad enough doing 3+ years of 80 hour weeks in residency, but at least you know there's an end eventually. If you're still working that hard as an attending, you're going to be unhappy, especially if you want to cut back and can't afford it. My advice to all of you premeds, med students, and residents is to be very frugal. Don't go crazy with your first attending paycheck. Pay off your loans ASAP, and live well below your means. There's a lot to be said for being able to have time to enjoy your life and smell the roses a bit. If you can't "afford" to live comfortably on a six figure attending salary, then you really have a problem.

But we're derailing the OP's thread here. Point still stands that he needs to do his due diligence and get SOME decent amount of clinical experience.

 

[Snakes]

My view from the attending side is that a big part of physicians' discontent in medicine is that they spend too much and therefore work too much. It's bad enough doing 3+ years of 80 hour weeks in residency, but at least you know there's an end eventually. If you're still working that hard as an attending, you're going to be unhappy, especially if you want to cut back and can't afford it. My advice to all of you premeds, med students, and residents is to be very frugal. Don't go crazy with your first attending paycheck. Pay off your loans ASAP, and live well below your means.

This right here is gold. GOLD I TELL YOU. I'm a bankruptcy lawyer. Can't tell you how many doctors I've seen file. Lots. They are also typically very bad financial planners and business people. Not all, of course. But lots.
In the movie "This Is 40", the main character is lamenting the financial downfall of his life (he has a huge house, kids in private school, his business is going down the drain, he's supporting his dad), and he talks to one of his musicians whose record flopped, and the musician says, "I’m going to be fine. Secret is, make sure you have a small nut. That’s the key to life."

That is the key to life. Not the super insane house and the crazy cars. If doctors would live like residents for a few years after residency and pay off their loans, life would be a lot easier and afford them a ton more flexibility. Generally, the more choices people feel they have, the happier they are. Feeling like you have a lack of control over how you spend your life because of finances--that is the worst, regardless of your profession.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Before you commit to this, make sure you put your financial house in order so you can pay all your bills even if your wife work only 3 days/week... Because taking care of two young children while working 5-6 days/week is nothing to sneeze at...

 

[journalistdoingscience]

I'm not one to poo-poo anyone's advice but 2000 hours is overkill for someone who is trying to decide if this is something they want to do. I have significantly less than that and I am confident that medicine is the field I want to go into. Granted, I've been working in clinical research for a while now and have a lot of exposure to amazing physicians, various hospital services and healthcare providers who are always willing to let me pick their brain and talk about their life in the medical profession. I think that if this is something you might want to do OP, definitely get some clinical experience but don't go into it thinking "I won't know if I want to be a doctor until I hit 2K hours, then suddenly a lightbulb will go off and I will KNOW."

 

[jl lin]

I'm not one to poo-poo anyone's advice but 2000 hours is overkill for someone who is trying to decide if this is something they want to do. I have significantly less than that and I am confident that medicine is the field I want to go into. Granted, I've been working in clinical research for a while now and have a lot of exposure to amazing physicians, various hospital services and healthcare providers who are always willing to let me pick their brain and talk about their life in the medical profession. I think that if this is something you might want to do OP, definitely get some clinical experience but don't go into it thinking "I won't know if I want to be a doctor until I hit 2K hours, then suddenly a lightbulb will go off and I will KNOW."

I think we all should agree now that 2000 hours is to be ~ as much as you can work/volunteer--the more the better.

Also helps to peel through the many threads of those that have been down this road and have powerful feelings of buyer's remorse. Lots of direct clinical can help reduce this. Ultimately you've got to do what works for you.

 

[Darth Doc]

I've been lurking on these forums for a while now, and have read about lots of people who wanted to go back to school in their 30s or even 40s and 50s. I'm really hoping to hear from some people who have actually done it and succeeded. People who switched careers to do something this crazy.

From what I can see, you haven't had a response yet from someone who's done it and has kids. I have 6 kids. I was (and am) a physician assistant. My husband's a nurse. I knew what I was getting into. I love medicine and wanted to know more.

I do recommend the clinical experience, and as a stay-at-home dad you have the unique opportunity to get a few prerequisites done and become a volunteer EMT. I highly recommend going on a few ambulance runs, seeing some blood, and seeing if this is something you really like.

Because you have to really want it. I stay up until 12-1am every night studying. I have to. I'm not at the top of my class (or at the bottom) currently, but I'm trying for a balanced life and for example spent an hour walking with my kids and my dog on a nature trail by the house today.

Thankfully my oldest kids are teens and help out with meals and babysitting or we wouldn't be able to do this.

I had to relocate my family 5 hours away. My kids all had to start new schools. My husband had to get a new job. We weren't able to sell our house....

Yes, I think it's worth it. Did I make the right decision for me? Yes. Am I happy? Yes. Am I exhausted, stressed, anxious? Yes.

It's not easy. Make sure you want it. It's not worth the stress on your family if you change your mind.

 

[cabinbuilder]

From what I can see, you haven't had a response yet from someone who's done it and has kids. I have 6 kids. I was (and am) a physician assistant. My husband's a nurse. I knew what I was getting into. I love medicine and wanted to know more.

.

I have 2 kids - I am the mother. I started medical school with a 2 yr old and a 5 year old. I moved from Alaska to PA for med school. From PA to TX for residency. From TX to MT for the 1st job. From MT to CO for the 2nd job. From CO to OR for the 3rd job. Quit that job and now do locums cuz the kids didn't want to move anymore while in high school. I understand their request and my husband stays home with them. I schedule my life around the kids vacation time and am off and home when they are. It works for us but that's what we have chosen in order to not be a slave or owned by any administration nazis.

 

[jl lin]

From what I can see, you haven't had a response yet from someone who's done it and has kids. I have 6 kids. I was (and am) a physician assistant. My husband's a nurse. I knew what I was getting into. I love medicine and wanted to know more.

I do recommend the clinical experience, and as a stay-at-home dad you have the unique opportunity to get a few prerequisites done and become a volunteer EMT. I highly recommend going on a few ambulance runs, seeing some blood, and seeing if this is something you really like.

Because you have to really want it. I stay up until 12-1am every night studying. I have to. I'm not at the top of my class (or at the bottom) currently, but I'm trying for a balanced life and for example spent an hour walking with my kids and my dog on a nature trail by the house today.

Thankfully my oldest kids are teens and help out with meals and babysitting or we wouldn't be able to do this.

I had to relocate my family 5 hours away. My kids all had to start new schools. My husband had to get a new job. We weren't able to sell our house....

Yes, I think it's worth it. Did I make the right decision for me? Yes. Am I happy? Yes. Am I exhausted, stressed, anxious? Yes.

It's not easy. Make sure you want it. It's not worth the stress on your family if you change your mind.

Six kids. . .wow. I have half of that number, and I am in awe! Seriously, I have to put you in my hero-status.

EMT is fine, but I'd also definitely add in hospital, direct clinical experience. Some people get a high off the blood and guts, but then the daily grind is also something important to see--and the night shift grind. In fact, if the OP can get some long day/night rotations in, more better. Also, exposure to the inside politics is another angel of working in direct, in-hospital care. This is a perspective people should see; b/c it's a reality--and they will experience more of it than they had ever imagined. It's good to see the aggravating fragmentation in the HC system first hand. It can be a real eye-opener. Personally, I believe it is the inside politics and other admin turmoil is a good reason why some physicians say, "I don't want to work primarily in the hospital." Some people are better w/ BS politics than others. So you have 1. be good in dealing w/ BS politics, which can chew up the smoothest players in the world in the hospital, or 2. you have to love what you are doing in there enough to make the intense BS worth it. So, again, my point is, get a lot of in-house exposure, for a variety of reality-based reasons.

It's good to hear you are happy DD. A few years down the road, would like to hear how you feel.

 

[jl lin]

I have 2 kids - I am the mother. I started medical school with a 2 yr old and a 5 year old. I moved from Alaska to PA for med school. From PA to TX for residency. From TX to MT for the 1st job. From MT to CO for the 2nd job. From CO to OR for the 3rd job. Quit that job and now do locums cuz the kids didn't want to move anymore while in high school. I understand their request and my husband stays home with them. I schedule my life around the kids vacation time and am off and home when they are. It works for us but that's what we have chosen in order to not be a slave or owned by any administration nazis.

LOL. There you have it folks. Thanks for helping me make my point. And as much as I hear what you are saying CB, seriously I do, I want to settle down in a remote community and get to know and help the people there. It's tough to make a commitment to a particular community of people doing locums; but I so understand your POV and why you would do it.


It's not too different from why a lot of nurses choose to do travel nursing or agency nursing. Hospitals and health care organizations can tend to make you feel owned by them--there is this dehumanizing element as being part of their machine. When healthcare moved more and more in to this whole bean counter administrative mode, the sense of true community and less fragmentation and loss of unity was totally loss. It's like healthcare was the last refuge from which people were being viewed as this corporate number. It wasn't perfect, but it was better than most big businesses. Now, that too seems gone.

 

[cabinbuilder]

LOL. And as much as I hear what you are saying CB, seriously I do, I want to settle down in a remote community and get to know and help the people there.
.

Granted this is easier said than done. I have tried this 4 times in 4 different communities and had every intention of staying 7 years minimum to get my kids through school. I must just have bad luck because small town politics can be vicious and very difficult to get accepted into the community. Heaven forbid you try to "do the right thing" vs doing the "expected thing" and try to keep the peace in your office. I have tried to practice good medicine only to be forced out by gossip and "proof" of wrong doing that only came out in my favor after I was long gone. I do long term locums 6-9 months and I tell you that's about my max in these small places since you go through the gamut of drug seekers and know who is sleeping with who and who is married to who and you refuse to give narcotics to the niece of the guy who's on the medical board or told the mayor's daughter NO, that's not standard of care, you as the "outsider" are quickly and easily replaced. Good luck with that, I gave up a LONG time ago about trying to "fit in" and be OK with small town and small hospital politics. When things start getting uncomfortable I just go onto the next job.

 

[jl lin]

Granted this is easier said than done. I have tried this 4 times in 4 different communities and had very intention of staying 7 years minimum to get my kids through school. I must just have back luck because small town politics can be vicious and very difficult to get accepted into the community. Heaven forbid you try to "do the right thing" vs doing the "expected thing" and try to keep the peace in your office. I have tried to practice god medicine only to be forced out by gossip and "proof" of wrong doing that only came out in my favor after I was long gone. I do long term locums 6-9 months and I tell you that's about my max in these small places since you go through the gamut of drug seekers and know who is sleeping with who and who is married to who and you refuse to give narcotics to the niece of the guy who's on the medical board or told the mayor's daughter NO, that's not standard of care, you as the "outsider" are quickly and easily replaced. Good luck with that, I gave up a LONG time ago about trying to "fit in" and be OK with small town and small hospital politics. When things start getting uncomfortable I just go onto the next job.

Thank you for sharing your experiences and perspective. I think it's important to here these perspectives.

I will have to wait and see. The reality is that NOTHING worthwhile in life IS EVER easy. I never once have seen a lot of easy buttons for worthwhile pursuits--or even a lot of stuff in life, in general.

Certainly everyone has to do what works for them. In healthcare and really in many jobs, there is so much of this, well, just keeping your head down and your mouth shut. And this can be counterproductive to being a good and powerful change agent. So, in the end, I guess, you do what you can, and can what you can't; this is what I always say.

 

[jdlev]

Hi Guys,

Thanks again for all the information! I appreciate all the advice. So here is what I'm doing right now, please let me know what else I should be doing to improve my chances.
1) Just requested my college transcript to see what my overall and science GPAs entail.
2) I'll be looking into what my local community college offers to bolster my science courses and overall GPA. I'll try to knock out all the premed prerequisites I need over the next year and improve upon my 3.25 overall GPA.
3) I'll shoot for taking the MCAT in 2016, which means (if I get a decent score) I could apply to med schools for the fall '16 semester when I'll be 36...
4) Over the next year, I'll try to accumulate patient contact experience...which is what leads me to my next question...

As it turns out, I do have a small amount of medical experience being a former EMT and spent some time at a local volunteer emt dept. I will say that it was limited experience however, and probably only got to be around 200 hours before work obligations forced me to give up doing that.

That was about 4-5 years ago, so I assume I should just start all over. The biggest question I have is what type of volunteering and shadowing do Medical Schools look best upon?

As for shadowing, I may have a few options:
*I might be able to shadow my wife to see what being a PA entails. She's on the inpatient team at the local hospital, so I may be able to shadow her and perhaps some of her doctors.
*I'm a member of the Elks, and one of our members runs a doctor's office. I think that may be allergies or a general practice - neither are fields that really interest me, but might be able to shadow her docs as well.
*My primary care doctor is a sports doctor. I might be able to shadow him, but I'm not sure how Dr's feel about new patients following them around. Probably not a good option.

All together, I don't think the shadowing would help me beyond determining if this is a field I really want to get into.

As for volunteering, I have no idea where to volunteer to build up my resume'. I've tried applying at the local hospital, but was never called back, nor do I know what type of 'patient contact' the hospital would allow you to have. I can't go back to being an EMT because my license has expired. I've considered trying to get a job with the local MEDIC agency, however, since I'm already 34, and would likely be 35 by the time I would even restart EMT school, I wouldn't feel comfortable just giving them a 1-2 year commitment as a stepping stone to move on to something else since I know a bunch of people that work there.

So what type of organizations should I offer to volunteer at, and what types of volunteering opportunities do you guys think med schools look best upon?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

@jdlev Since your GPA is on the low side, be open to DO... You will definitely need some patient contact... any local clinics for low incomes individuals etc... if you can't find something at a hospital. You should do some non-medical volunteering as well like Habitat for Humanity etc... 100 hours each should suffice IMO.

 

[jl lin]

OK, I'd say you could do a number of volunteer services. Shadowing--speak to some open docs, both DO and MD and talk with them.
As for realistic clinical experiences--well, my favs are more on the sweat equity side of things--just so long as you will get the opportunity to see stuff and work in acute or a critical care environment. This may even entail becoming a pt med tech for say a hospital ICU or the equivalent for a busy ED. Some hospitals may even let you rotate to where they need your help--with some exceptions. Some hospitals will even let you work per diem as a tech after you have trained.

Good luck to you.

 

[Cawolf]

3) I'll shoot for taking the MCAT in 2016, which means (if I get a decent score) I could apply to med schools for the fall '16 semester when I'll be 36...

It is important to note that if you are taking the MCAT in early 2016 (assume before summer) that you will be applying in the 2016 application cycle.

Though you are applying in summer 2016, you would start in late summer of 2017 - not 2016.

 

[BHB2008]

@jl lin , hyperbolic? No, never.

 

[jl lin]

@jl lin , hyperbolic? No, never.

No. I was dead serious. It is not going to happen; but that doesn't mean some kind of compromise moving toward more direct, clinical hours would not be a good idea. At any rate, I have no power over it one way or another. There are just too many grossly unsatisfied, frustrated post-med-graduates--even beyond PGY-1--with rather devastated, deflated expectations about medicine and dealing with sick people. Too many that say, they would NOT do it again. So, I have to wonder if a big part of this is not being in a long enough, good enough mix of direct, clinical exposure. Are there other issues? Sure. But this is a big one. I have seen it in other healthcare fields too--but those in other areas did not put anyway near as much into the financial cost and time commitment as medical students and post-med school grads put in. The others can more easily and readily decide to move in a different direction; b/c they are not locked in by time and money. There is nothing benign about the whole road, so the more exposure you can get on the battlefields and down in the mines, the better in my opinion.

 

[BHB2008]

Well, you know what else would help, besides many hours of clinical experience -- just plain being older.

Having worked a job, lived life, learning who . . . you . . . are. I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect 18 year olds to know what career they'll enjoy when they're 30.

Also, there is the "grass is greener" effect. How many pre-meds grow up in middle to upper-middle class families, go straight to college, straight to medical school, straight to residency and then become an attending without ever having a low-paid job and being totally responsible for financing themselves, their only interactions with working class people are those they have in a clinical setting? I'd bet plenty.

I will say this--I didn't expect so much complaining from doctors. You'd think from SDN they were making UK level wages. Now, I've been around people living off of low 5 figures, working two jobs, etc., and they just take it as an "it is what is is" factor of their life. Perhaps it's an expectations game, but I think many would have a different perspective if they realized how unrewarding (financially and otherwise) many other careers paths are.

 

[jl lin]

Well, you know what else would help, besides many hours of clinical experience -- just plain being older.

Having worked a job, lived life, learning who . . . you . . . are. I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect 18 year olds to know what career they'll enjoy when they're 30.

Also, there is the "grass is greener" effect. How many pre-meds grow up in middle to upper-middle class families, go straight to college, straight to medical school, straight to residency and then become an attending without ever having a low-paid job and being totally responsible for financing themselves, their only interactions with working class people are those they have in a clinical setting? I'd bet plenty.

I will say this--I didn't expect so much complaining from doctors. You'd think from SDN they were making UK level wages. Now, I've been around people living off of low 5 figures, working two jobs, etc., and they just take it as an "it is what is is" factor of their life. Perhaps it's an expectations game, but I think many would have a different perspective if they realized how unrewarding (financially and otherwise) many other careers paths are.

Yes. There is a lot of truth in what you say. Most people don't have a clue what they really want to do with their lives at 18, 19, or 20. Of course there are exceptions; but look how many kids change majors. And I believe more would do so, it's just that if they have any sense at all, they see that changing majors ends up costing them more time and money--or their parents or funding programs tell them so.

In fact, I don't even think kids should necessarily go straight into college full-time out of high school. If you are an extremely disciplined, talented student--OK, fine. But even they can defer for a while in order to get a better sense of real life.
And if you do decide to go to college, even if you are a good student, kick out as many courses as you can at a good community college to save some dough--do it while you are working. I can see university admins hating me for saying that, but all post-secondary four-year educational programs are costly IMHO. Save yourself some bucks while learning to grow up in the real world. Do a year of volunteering overseas or something. IDK. Do something as an independent adult, even if you still have to list your parents on a FASFA form. Sending these kids off to college to party schools w/o them working is major mistake.

 

[BHB2008]

In anycase, physicians are in the top 50% for job satisfaction, just about in the middle of the pack, according to the U of Chicago study.

 

[Snakes]

Well, you know what else would help, besides many hours of clinical experience -- just plain being older.

Having worked a job, lived life, learning who . . . you . . . are. I think it's a bit ridiculous to expect 18 year olds to know what career they'll enjoy when they're 30...I will say this--I didn't expect so much complaining from doctors. You'd think from SDN they were making UK level wages. Now, I've been around people living off of low 5 figures, working two jobs, etc., and they just take it as an "it is what is is" factor of their life. Perhaps it's an expectations game, but I think many would have a different perspective if they realized how unrewarding (financially and otherwise) many other careers paths are.

A physician posted in another thread today how much he/she loves their job--they were non-trad and mentioned being homeless for awhile prior to being able to apply to med school. Perspective. It's an important ingredient to job and life satisfaction.

I often see threads with med students and doctors complaining about lost opportunity costs for pursuing medicine. They mention alternate careers they could have pursued in less time, like becoming investment bankers and lawyers, like just anyone can become either of those things and make millions of dollars. Most doctors I know would make terrible investment bankers and lawyers. And the law market is so over-saturated that I know lawyers who work temp jobs to make ends meet. Just because you are good at one thing doesn't mean you would excel at another thing. And don't underestimate the importance of job security.

 

[Nasrudin]

Nope. Clinical experience--beyond the 200 hours of look see--doesn't help. Being older doesn't help.

Perspective, perhaps. Sure when doesn't it. The trouble with some of the contentions in this thread is they obviously have an interest in their perspective being the correct one. Guess what old people think we should all be older before undertaking the massive effort to become a doctor. Guess what the health care professions think we need more clinical experience.

Nope, we don't. Youth is always an advantage with or without perspective. What ever age produces in terms of perspective whether or not it's useful is debatable and highly personal and subjective. If you have tons of clinical experience it will be helpful in limited ways. But recommending it is self-interested and inaccurate in the best case.

 

[BHB2008]

@Nasrudin, being older doesn't help what? We are talking about avoiding the situation where they end up in a career that isn't right for them. Not about "success" in general--academic or professional. Don't believe youthfulness and lack of exposure is an asset with regard to this to ensuring people don't hate medicine. Maybe it is? But you seem confident about it, why do you see it that way ?

 

[Nasrudin]

@Nasrudin, being older doesn't help what? We are talking about avoiding the situation where they end up in a career that isn't right for them. Not about "success" in general--academic or professional. Don't believe youthfulness and lack of exposure is an asset with regard to this to ensuring people don't hate medicine. Maybe it is? But you seem confident about it, why do you see it that way ?

There's no guarantee you're going to like medicine. The older people in my class were not the happiest because they were older and knew a thing or two about a thing or two. Being older is a trade off. Certain things help certain things don't.

You're here because you guys have a natural restlessness. You want to push forward and do challenging things. Being good at something doesn't mean you sound lovely to the tourists about what you're doing. Great artists are often miserable and prone to dissatisfaction with their work. It doesn't mean they suck. And the stepford wife narrative that gets propagated in premedical circles, particularly here, is just too off base for me to let it go. If you're going to be the happy honky dorriest doc on the block and are convinced it all goes down like that because you were a nurse or that you were older. F'n PROVE it. And come back here and offer data that serves your thesis.

Otherwise it's more hypothetical than you can possibly imagine.

 

[Nasrudin]

Sorry for the de-rail OP.

uh..go for 200 hours or so or more as your opportunities develop. If it strengthens your position do it. But you already have unique accomplishments and have made sacrifices to care for your children.

The others here have clued you in to the statistical realities and the notion that you have to talk to the troops, because they will be affected. They will have to make sacrifices.

Good luck.

 

[jl lin]

Nope. Clinical experience--beyond the 200 hours of look see--doesn't help. Being older doesn't help.

Perspective, perhaps. Sure when doesn't it. The trouble with some of the contentions in this thread is they obviously have an interest in their perspective being the correct one. Guess what old people think we should all be older before undertaking the massive effort to become a doctor. Guess what the health care professions think we need more clinical experience.

Nope, we don't. Youth is always an advantage with or without perspective. What ever age produces in terms of perspective whether or not it's useful is debatable and highly personal and subjective. If you have tons of clinical experience it will be helpful in limited ways. But recommending it is self-interested and inaccurate in the best case.

Yes, but I truly don't know or know of a lot of nurses turned physicians dissatisfied or unhappy with their choice to be in medicine. And you can't go by what some nurses you have worked with do. There are hospital nurses in acute and critical care that will blow you away with what they know and have experienced. People underestimate this; b/c they think of mostly what they have worked around. It's usually, at least in my experience, the truly exceptional, committed nurses that go the extra mile in their thinking processes that go for medicine and are happy they did so. I'm not talking about MAs in a office with six months training, or techs, etc. And I'm not talking about the nurse on the MS floor or well nursery who is OK with knowing and doing the basic stuff and then checking out for the day. And as nice as working in a doc's office can seem; it's really not the same kind or intensity of nursing--and for this and a few other reasons, it usually doesn't pay anywhere near the same in most cases either.

And this is why I also said originally that it would be the type and quality of clinical experience as well as the total hours that can make a big difference. Best thing is to work a lot of time in areas where you will be working closely not only with patients and families, but with residents. Unfortunately this is hard to get the opportunity to do unless you are a RN working in a particular area. RT has it's merits too; but they really don't have to cover all the orders and plans of care and tx with the docs like we do. They generally aren't calling them for pre-code or code situations or for crashing H/H levels and non-therapeutic INRs, or for huge blood dumps into chest tubes, or even the ABGs, VBGs, or CBGs. You have to have worked it to know what I am talking about. And I fully realize not every RN has worked in areas like this, or if they have, not at the same level facilities, or even cared about going the extra mile in understanding what's going on with the patients.

Actually the right kind of nursing is good for getting great clinical exposure, but only if you have put in enough time on the field.

 

[jl lin]

There's no guarantee you're going to like medicine. The older people in my class were not the happiest because they were older and knew a thing or two about a thing or two. Being older is a trade off. Certain things help certain things don't.

You're here because you guys have a natural restlessness. You want to push forward and do challenging things. Being good at something doesn't mean you sound lovely to the tourists about what you're doing. Great artists are often miserable and prone to dissatisfaction with their work. It doesn't mean they suck. And the stepford wife narrative that gets propagated in premedical circles, particularly here, is just too off base for me to let it go. If you're going to be the happy honky dorriest doc on the block and are convinced it all goes down like that because you were a nurse or that you were older. F'n PROVE it. And come back here and offer data that serves your thesis.

Otherwise it's more hypothetical than you can possibly imagine.

Don't think you have ever made me want to cuss at you before Nas. Hmmm. LOL There are tons of nurses that have done just that. There are a number here. I have worked with more than a handful. There are some nice ones over on Oldpremeds. They have been and are proving it. And they seem no where near miserable about their choice for medicine. You OTOH, well, honestly, I have to say, it's looking like you totally regret your pursuit of medicine. But then again, seriously, are you the kind of person that holds firm to the principle of gratitude in life? I'm guessing, no. Do you think some mere thing or role should be making you happy? And are you pissed that whatever things you thought would give you happiness have not fulfilled you? Do you think the whole notion of "Happiness is a Choice" is BS? What about joy? Is that nonsense also? If having experienced and knowing those things, in spite of all the tragedy in my life makes me a Stepford Wife, then the whole world should move to Oregon w/ me, and we should all make appointments with Dr. Peter Goodwin immediately. You have no idea what others or I have struggled with in life. Who is anyone here to call someone else a Stepford wife or a buffoon-like Pollyanna?

Geez, I feel like you have some kind of projection-based need going on in order to release your own frustration.

At this point, I can only give you my positive Stepford Wife (how utterly ridiculous) thoughts and prayers. I will refrain from posting the "Don't worry. Be happy" song.

And I am thinking you have to find some way to get out and do something fun--somehow! But I remember dating musicians, and indeed, they were on the more miserable side of things at certain times. I like to think their sensitive spirits made them moodier than the average person.
Maybe you are missing your music? IDK. Something is not well in Nasrudin Land.

Yours Truly,

The Non-Stepford Wife

 

[Nasrudin]

Ok then. We should let this OP get on with his inquiry. Without the misconception that he should become an ICU nurse to find out if he should become a physician. Which is pretty common sensical. Given that you agree that the shades of proximal grays that compromise most people's clinical experience doesn't provide the same unique insights, he should either 1. Do exactly what you're doing or 2. Not do that. I'm going with not.

Notice. This is not the same thing as devaluing one for having done that. It is certainly valuable. It's just not necessary. Certainly not advisable. Kind of like the other thread, with the old people talking about how all the applicants should be old too. Ok. But I'm not advising people to wait until they're older any more than to become a nurse first. Because...I'm thinking about them, not me. See....I've got no skin in the being picked game, anymore. Which frees me to piss you off inadvertently. But it's your ideas...I just think they're not true.

The last thing an old @ss premed needs is to be d!cking around with excessive clinical experience.

 

[QofQuimica]

Being older versus younger is not an either-or when it comes to who has a leg up. Each is advantageous in different ways. There's no doubt that physically and mentally, medical training is a younger person's game. The older you are, the harder it is to keep up with the kids. And speed does matter in medical training and practice: the med school tests are timed; the residency work hours are timed; the attending office visits are timed.

I also agree with Nas that nontrads are not likelier to "love" medicine any more than trads are just because they're older. Where the difference in perspective a nontrad has is helpful is that if you've had a sucky job before, you understand that most people dislike, or at best tolerate, their jobs. So, odds are good you are not going to be special or different in this regard just because now you're a physician instead of whatever you used to do. Most physicians, like most butchers, bakers, and candlestick makers, are putting in their time and will happily quit (or cut back) their work hours when they're able. As long as you're ok with that, you'll be fine in medicine, and you may even manage to do some good and find some pleasure in it along the way. But it is understandably going to be something of a disappointment if you come to medicine expecting to love it, and instead merely find it tolerable.

 

[TheTao]

The older you are, the harder it is to keep up with the kids..

Actually, the older you are the more you realize that keeping up with the kids is NOT the goal. The goal for ANY Physician in training is to become medically competent not worry about changing your depends. And given the pre-diabetic state many young people are in, I'd think that you guys will need insulin and/or metformin LONG before we need Aricept. Or Depends.

BTW, the average physician is over age 50, so is medicine filled with a bunch of barely medically competent old folks who's goal is to keep up with kids? I should think not.

 

[jl lin]

Ok then. We should let this OP get on with his inquiry. Without the misconception that he should become an ICU nurse to find out if he should become a physician. Which is pretty common sensical. Given that you agree that the shades of proximal grays that compromise most people's clinical experience doesn't provide the same unique insights, he should either 1. Do exactly what you're doing or 2. Not do that. I'm going with not.

Notice. This is not the same thing as devaluing one for having done that. It is certainly valuable. It's just not necessary. Certainly not advisable. Kind of like the other thread, with the old people talking about how all the applicants should be old too. Ok. But I'm not advising people to wait until they're older any more than to become a nurse first. Because...I'm thinking about them, not me. See....I've got no skin in the being picked game, anymore. Which frees me to piss you off inadvertently. But it's your ideas...I just think they're not true.

The last thing an old @ss premed needs is to be d!cking around with excessive clinical experience.

lol

Things are pretty much black and white to you, aren't they? This doesn't necessarily work with taking care of patients.
I'm saying get up very close w/ direct clinical experience, preferably do as much in a hosoital or some area where you will get acute and./or critical care exposure. ED volunteer hours with hands-on experience is very good. Then follow some teams working in the ICU, etc. You have to show true intent and persevere, but I am saying it will be worth it. I agree with Dr. Midlife, you have to get in there up close with your five senses. 4 hours per wk*78 weeks, not including school breaks and summer break can get those hours up. But it's ideal that they also be consistent over time--cause then you will be better able to get a real taste of things.

Don't want to. Fine.
Striving not to really get in there and get down and dirty over time, that will not help the individual later on, when he or she decides, "Oh my God. What did I get my azz into and I'm stuck in it now."

Don't mistake my life experience. I had no intention to pursue medicine when I was 20 something in college for nursing, for a number of reasons. It was, in fact, the critical care exposure that stimulated my interested in medicine.
In general, I don't encourage people to go to college for nursing as a bridge to medicine. No. And there are number of reasons for this, but the big one in my book is that you just won't have the time to really get the benefit of it as a mere bridge to medicine--unless you are considering taking off for a number of years to work full-time as a nurse in a crazy ED or ICU, or if you plan on taking pre-reqs while you work. I think for many people this plans posses problems and the value of the nursing experience may be greatly diminished b/c of the desire to get that med school application moving--which is understandable.


Nasrudin:
"And the stepford wife narrative that gets propagated in premedical circles, particularly here, is just too off base for me to let it go. If you're going to be the happy honky dorriest doc on the block and are convinced it all goes down like that because you were a nurse or that you were older. F'n PROVE it. And come back here and offer data that serves your thesis. "

My issue with you Nas, as amusing as you can be, is the soured presumptuousness in your statement noted above. It's your own soured projection that you are using as a rationalization for your audacious and insolent comments about what a person may want, why, and why they are wrong or right.

And you don't preface it as your opinion (becoming one with the arrogance in medicine you earlier stated that you resent). You are like well, "This is it. I know. I am the end all be all and final word on the matter." Really?

I read your comments, and I can't help but feel like, wow, Nas, who really needs a break, some space, and probably time to finish his residency so he can get some perspective is trying to come off as a fair, sound, final word on the matter? Seriously. You are in toxic state right now. And I realize the need to vent, but you are going a little far with it.

I am sorry that you are so terribly unhappy in your choice to pursue medicine. I really am. But there is such a thing as preventative solutions to things. Some solutions may not be the whole solution--merely a part, but they can help--such as getting enough of the right kinds of clinical experiences. Hell no, it's not everything. It's not the total answer; but it is a start.


There are a number of unhappy people in medicine. Who wants one of these people caring for their family members or for them? And suggesting that the suppressed inner misery of these physicians won't make a difference in care is bunk. I know differently. I have seen it in both nurses and doctors.

You have to really want to do this physician thing and KEEP WANTING to do it, even when you feel beat up and unappreciated at times. For the most part, people need to see medicine as a lifetime commitment and they need to taste what that may mean and feel like--from jump street.

It's like a marriage. Problem is, so many people spend so much time and money on the wedding celebration and NOT on the core principles of marriage, the areas of life-long compatibility--or the likelihood thereof, proper counseling programs, and what exactly it means in terms of lifetime commitment--even when there are sucky times--and sure as sunrise and sunset, there will be.

What I am saying is it is helpful to do your due diligence in order to count the costs. People get all excited, and they don't want to evaluate and count up all the costs--and they don't want to spend a lot of time putting themselves in situations where they will have closer interface with some of those costs.

 

[QofQuimica]

Actually, the older you are the more you realize that keeping up with the kids is NOT the goal. The goal for ANY Physician in training is to become medically competent not worry about changing your depends. And given the pre-diabetic state many young people are in, I'd think that you guys will need insulin and/or metformin LONG before we need Aricept. Or Depends.

BTW, the average physician is over age 50, so is medicine filled with a bunch of barely medically competent old folks who's goal is to keep up with kids? I should think not.

I wasn't referring to keeping up with the kids in the sense of their inherent pace. Like it or not, you have to keep up with the pace of medical training for a minimum of seven years from start to finish. That's a lot easier to do for the 25-year-olds. Most of those 50-year-olds in medicine aren't interns. There's a good reason for that.

Out of curiosity, how old are you, and where are you at in your medical training? I'm about to turn 40 and just finished residency a few months ago. So I wasn't exactly 25 when I went through this whole process. I'm also someone who runs regularly, about to enter the masters runner division with 20+ years of road racing experience. I don't think anyone my age can deny having slowed down a bit compared to where they were at 10-20 years prior. I may race smarter at 40, but I definitely don't run faster now than I did at 20 or 30.

 

[TheTao]

Like it or not, you have to keep up with the pace of medical training for a minimum of seven years from start to finish. That's a lot easier to do for the 25-year-olds. Most of those 50-year-olds in medicine aren't interns. There's a good reason for that.

My money is on age discrimination for why there aren't more 50 year old Interns. I also don't think oldpremeds view medical training from a "like it or not perspective" as much as an attitude of "let's do this $hit" perspective.

As for where I'm at in my training, let's just say that I'll be VERY middle aged when I'm done. So this perception that mental and thus learning diminishes as one gets older, is foreign to me. And I'm quite certain that I'm not the only oldpremed whose grades and test taking abilities improved significantly with age either. My "mile" improved too.

Med school for older folks is NOT like expecting a 50-something Michael Jordan to dunk on Lebron James EVERY quarter in a 4 quarter game. So this idea among younger people that it is,is just ridiculous.