Strong GPA & MCAT, less than pertinent degree, where should I apply?

[Ethan1000]

I'd like to apply to med school in 2015, to start in 2016. Below, I've listed some points that might be relevant to an application. I'd really appreciate learning what you think about my odds and where you would apply if you were me (to keep everything on the table assume money and travel are no issue).

• 30 year old from Ontario, Canada (but, again, willing to travel)
• Studied like hell for the MCAT and scored 35.
• Presently studying math and philosophy. GPA is 3.85
• Zero science credits (which I could begin changing as of this summer term)
• I can effectively explain why I want to become a doctor to educated lay-people: two out of four were blistery-eyed afterward (that's the most objective thing I can say about its effectiveness).

Background:

• Started a maintenance business in high school and ran it while I was at school for my first degree (BA psych)
  
• I, unwisely, regarded school as an after thought and focused on my company.
• Consequently, the grades I earned in my first degree are mixed: A to D+
• Bought my first house at 21, a commercial building at 24, and was employing 14 people at 25.
• Spent 26-29 caring for my wife who had become terminally ill. Aside from my effort in that, I don't have anything additional to show for that time.
• Worked closely with a partner (pro-bono) at an elite law-firm to make federal law enforcement aware of, and helped them acquire the information they needed to break-up, a long standing bid-rigging ring and prosecute its participants.
• I sold my business about a year and a half ago and returned to school to boost my GPA and contemplate what I wanted to do.
• I considered medicine throughout that time, but usually dismissed it as too far fetched. I didn't think I'd interest med schools.
• Last year I decided I'd apply to med-school if I could do well enough on the MCATs.
• I'll have completed 2 years of courses at the end of this term (the GPA I mentioned above is based on the grades I've earned during the last two years).

I think that I'd most like emergency medicine, psychiatry, or neurology. I'd prefer to study at a Canadian university, but I don't know that I qualify. From what I understand, most Canadian schools want young candidates who've completed bio-science degrees while participating in extra-curriculars. Accordingly, I'm open to studying in the US or farther abroad. However, I'd like to have the option to return to work in Canada without having to redo residency.

I'd very much appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.


Thank you.

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[Ethan1000]

There are Ontario schools that don't have pre-reqs (McMaster, Queen's) so you could apply there without taking science classes.

That's helpful. Do you know whether either of those universities assign some extra value to applicants who have completed the usual science prerequisites?

You mentioned Ontario schools throughout your post. Is there much sense applying out of province?

I've applied to US and Canadian schools and I've lived in both countries

Do you know whether an IMG who completed residence in Canada may practice in the US?

hopefully this is helpful.

It was. Thank you.

 

[Goro]

OP, you will need to shadow a doctor, to show us that you know what a doctor's day is like.
You will need volunteering, both clinical and non-clinical.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!
You need to show us that you know what you're getting into and that you really want to be around sick people for the next 30-40 years.

 

[Ethan1000]

@Goro

. If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients.

I ran a maintenance company for almost a decade. We only employed those people (although, you left ex-cons out of your list). I saw ephemeral mental health crises send eight, otherwise reformed, people back to prison. If they were being followed, I suspect that things would have gone differently for at least half of them. Those eight collectively account for more than half my desire to practice medicine.

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

I volunteered in a homeless outreach program for two years.
I've spent months as a non-tourist in Cambodia, Bosnia (back when there were still bullets in every wall - I took a few as souvenirs), and Honduras.

What are you going to say when asked how you know you are suited for a life of caring for the sick and suffering? “That you just know”? Imagine how that will go over!
You need to show us that you know what you're getting into and that you really want to be around sick people for the next 30-40 years.

Aside from the experiences above. My dad's a psychiatrist, I grew up talking to him about it. I job shadowed him in middle-school. (Although, patient confidentiality meant I spent a lot of that time in his waiting room).

In addition to the time I spent listening to my girlfriend, and later, wife, talk about her experiences at med school and in residency, I spent ~700 hours quizzing her on her med-school and residency exams. At least a quarter of that occurred while she was receiving, ultimately unsuccessful, radiation therapy. Needless to say, that required "caring for the sick and suffering".

Saying all of that to say this: I don't deny that more experience in a particular field, or with a particular population, will improve one's knowledge of either of those things. Of course it will. However, I think my experiences have informed me well enough to make a good decision.

That said, whether or not an admissions council would appreciate those experiences is a different question.

 

[Goro]

These are answers that will get you rejected before you walk out of the interview room, except for this one: I volunteered in a homeless outreach program for two years.

I ran a maintenance company for almost a decade. We only employed those people (although, you left ex-cons out of your list). I saw ephemeral mental health crises send eight, otherwise reformed, people back to prison. If they were being followed, I suspect that things would have gone differently for at least half of them. Those eight collectively account for more than half my desire to practice medicine.

What do mean "non-tourist"???? NGO operative? US or UN military? Journalist?
I've spent months as a non-tourist in Cambodia, Bosnia (back when there were still bullets in every wall - I took a few as souvenirs), and Honduras.

You're going to need to see some perspectives other than this.
Aside from the experiences above. My dad's a psychiatrist, I grew up talking to him about it. I job shadowed him in middle-school. (Although, patient confidentiality meant I spent a lot of that time in his waiting room).

Trying to claim that taking care of a SO is the same as volunteering is the same as trying to claim breathing as a clinical experience. You need to be exposed to other patients. they're not always as nice as your late wife. I'm very sorry for your loss. BTW.

In addition to the time I spent listening to my girlfriend's, and later, wife's, experiences at med school, I spent ~700 hours quizzing her on her med-school and residency exams. At least a quarter of that occurred while she was receiving, ultimately unsuccessful, radiation therapy.[/QUOTE]

Your numbers are great and once you get he ECs in, consider the 74 US schools that accept foreign applicants. Mine only take green card holders, alas. Keep in mind that most US med schools only admit 1-2 international students.

 

[Ethan1000]

These are answers that will get you rejected before you walk out of the interview room, except for this one: I volunteered in a homeless outreach program for two years.

Perhaps. I wouldn't know. Although, I hope not. You learn infinitely more about a person as a boss interested in their success than you do as the guy serving them soup.

What do mean "non-tourist"???? NGO operative? US or UN military? Journalist?

I mean, helping friends' extended families. In Bosnia and Honduras I just built stuff for them. Cambodia was more involved. I helped them find a fair-trade buyer (which, as far as I can tell, is hipster-speak for cutting out the middle-man) and negotiated prices with them. I spent the rest of the time working on their farm. Judging from your previous comment, I get the impression you believe (perhaps accurately) that experiences count only when they're managed by someone else. I hope that's not the case. It is entirely possible, even common, for people to go to these places working for NGOs or the military, and come away with not much more knowledge of the people than what they had already learned from World Vision commercials. When you live with locals as an adjunct of a family, in addition to learning what you would learn if you were employed in an organizational capacity, you live the $2.00/day lifestyle, and gain intimate familiarity with the culture that you can't get any other way.

You're going to need to see some perspectives other than this.

I agree. It's not enough.

Trying to claim that taking care of a SO is the same as volunteering is the same as trying to claim breathing as a clinical experience. You need to be exposed to other patients. they're not always as nice as your late wife. I'm very sorry for your loss. BTW.

Of course not. However, it isn't hard to imagine how some of the people I, mistakenly, employed, or how some of the people I saw my dad code-white, would behave in similar situations. Human beings can synthesize experiences fairly well, so I think that's reasonable. Nevertheless, it is easier just to say that I've seen it first-hand. (and thank you)

Your numbers are great and once you get he ECs in, consider the 74 US schools that accept foreign applicants. Mine only take green card holders, alas. Keep in mind that most US med schools only admit 1-2 international students.

Thanks, that's helpful. I didn't know that so few US schools admitted foreign applicants. Considering that you guys do for-profit education down there, I would have thought that more schools would accept more foreign applicants in order to increase demand, and thus prices.

 

[Goro]

With the exception of RVU and the new Burrell in NM, it's the carib schools that are for profit. Tuition income alone is money loser for most med schools. We also have plenty of qualified applicants here, thank you.


I didn't know that so few US schools admitted foreign applicants. Considering that you guys do for-profit education down there, I would have thought that more schools would accept more foreign applicants in order to increase demand, and thus prices.



What part of service don't you understand? Being nice to your employees is vastly different from being nice to strangers.
Perhaps. I wouldn't know. Although, I hope not. You learn infinitely more about a person as a boss interested in their success than you do as the guy serving them soup.

 

[oldanddone]

If you are an Ontario resident, think of moving your residency somewhere else unless you qualify for rural status in which case may have a window . Alberta has more lenient options for how long it takes to get status. Some places are brutal like out east. Ip in Ontario is equivalent to oop everywhere else. Ip everywhere else is a lot easier...more like a 3.5 GPA rather than 3.85 etc. Consider moving as part of your plan.

Mac may say it doesn't need prerequisites but it also needs a 3.9 GPA.

In Canada it is considered unprofessional to allow a person who is not already a med student to shadow you. Gets your Dad in trouble. In the u.s. it is considered a given that premeds will shadow and is the norm. Navigate accordingly.

Check out the websites of the various Canadian schools there are idiosyncrasies re GPA calculation and what constitutes full time etc. If you know them you can work them to your advantage

If going to the states remember that DO is not very transferable coming back.

premed 101 is a useful canadian forum and has a nontrad section. Canadian schools getting more and more interested in nontraditional.

 

[Ethan1000]

Ip in Ontario is equivalent to oop everywhere else. Ip everywhere else is a lot easier...more like a 3.5 GPA rather than 3.85 etc. Consider moving as part of your plan.

Good point. I am definitely considering that now.