Students at expensive private schools, how are you planning on handling the debt?

[hoober]

I have schools on my list like Tufts, NYU, BU...known for their exorbitant tuition rates. I wish I had a chance at my state school (UW), but my gpa is a good amount below their mean gpa, I have strong doubts about getting in.

With private schools the total costs for all 4 years will easily hit 400-500k. (sorry for repeating this stuff again, I know there are other threads addressing this).

Any students at schools like these...can you please chime in? Older threads throw around the scholarships like the HPSP and NHSC but these scholarships are highly competitive are they not?

What do you have planned? If you've already graduated with that sort of debt, what are you doing now?

It's scaring the everliving **** out of me. Completely disregarding these schools are unrealistic for me if I want to get into a dental school.

Are you essentially financially doomed if you choose to go to private dental schools without a scholarship?

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[Mascota]

I used this excel sheet to help me calculate my future income so I can plan accordingly - it calculates student loans w/ interest over 4 years and then you can put in your starting income and it will take out state and federal income taxes and show you what you'll be left with to live on each month/year, based on what term you set for loan, of course.

I'll be honest, it's not pretty, but it helped me control expectations so I'm not disillusioned after graduating and can make an action plan.

Basically plan on living like a school teacher for a while.

 

[hellofuturedentists]

A lot of states have loan forgiveness programs available for underserved areas. Not as much money as NHSC or HPSP, but it's something. Also not sure how competitive these are. It probably varies by state.

http://www.adea.org/uploadedFiles/A...ADEA-Summary-of-Loan-Forgiveness-Programs.pdf

 

[Grinz]

I used this excel sheet to help me calculate my future income so I can plan accordingly - it calculates student loans w/ interest over 4 years and then you can put in your starting income and it will take out state and federal income taxes and show you what you'll be left with to live on each month/year, based on what term you set for loan, of course.

I'll be honest, it's not pretty, but it helped me control expectations so I'm not disillusioned after graduating and can make an action plan.

Basically plan on living like a school teacher for a while.

when I download the excel file and try to type in the loan amount it tells me to "unprotect sheet" but needs a password to do so. Have one of these without the password?

 

[Mascota]

when I download the excel file and try to type in the loan amount it tells me to "unprotect sheet" but needs a password to do so. Have one of these without the password?

That's weird, it isn't set with a password....let me see what I can do. Anyone else having this problem?

 

[Grinz]

That's weird, it isn't set with a password....let me see what I can do. Anyone else having this problem?

Got it to work. Just had to hit F9 on my mac.

 

[hoober]

That's weird, it isn't set with a password....let me see what I can do. Anyone else having this problem?

It's working fine for me, thank you!

God the level of stress this is causing me. I'm not even applying this cycle...it just sucks that even if I manage to accepted somewhere, that "somewhere" is likely going to load me up with a **** ton of debt.

Such is the dental life

 

[Hyunin1210]

I am going to NYU this fall. I am in a lucky situation because my parents will pay for my living costs. Costs $1,000 a month to live in a shared room in Manhattan X.X. The total amount of debt I will be in after NYU will be around $380,000 with interest (estimated) Undergrad will make it around $410,000 total.

I believe I will do a residency for a year because I heard obtaining a dental license takes 6 months anyway. Something I am thinking about is refinancing my loans to get a lower interest rate if it is available. I see some companies sponsored by the ADA that give 3.5% which is much better than 7+%. From there I have two options in my head:

1. Live with my parents for 4-5 years paying as much as I can towards the debt while paying for essentials like retirement and disability insurance, maybe save up for a private practice or a partnership. Paying the debt will be easier with private practice income.

2. Move to a rural part of New York or another state and work for a corporate dental office. Try to find a practice that would allow me to produce a lot and make double what normal starting dentist pay is and live modestly while paying as much as I can toward loans.

My parents keep telling me that they can pay half or more with the money they will get once they retire, but I am not comfortable taking that money. I have been taking their money for long enough.

 

[lazyindy]

A lot of states have loan forgiveness programs available for underserved areas. Not as much money as NHSC or HPSP, but it's something. Also not sure how competitive these are. It probably varies by state.

http://www.adea.org/uploadedFiles/A...ADEA-Summary-of-Loan-Forgiveness-Programs.pdf

hey thanks for this info! Is there a way to contact these programs and ask more about the competitiveness in detail?

 

[hellofuturedentists]

hey thanks for this info! Is there a way to contact these programs and ask more about the competitiveness in detail?

You're welcome. I'm not sure. I'll just be starting D1 soon so I haven't looked into it that much. I'm sure with some internet research you could figure it out. I'd guess that it varies by state.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[nonociceptors]

My parents keep telling me that they can pay half or more with the money they will get once they retire, but I am not comfortable taking that money. I have been taking their money for long enough.

What about taking the money they offered and paying them back at like 0-1% interest lol. That way you aren't in debt with ridiculous accumulating interest.

 

[Incis0r]

What about taking the money they offered and paying them back at like 0-1% interest lol. That way you aren't in debt with ridiculous accumulating interest.

This is the best solution. Why pay 7% to the federal government? Instead, pay your parents back at 3%. You win by saving thousands of dollars in interest, and they win since that is a better rate than what they could get from a CD.

It'll also be reassuring to them to have a nice, reliable, guaranteed income stream coming in before social security kicks in.

 

[nonociceptors]

This is the best solution. Why pay 7% to the federal government? Instead, pay your parents back at 3%. You win by saving thousands of dollars in interest, and they win since that is a better rate than what they could get from a CD.

It'll also be reassuring to them to have a nice, reliable, guaranteed income stream coming in before social security kicks in.

+1

(how's the cycle going?)

 

[Hyunin1210]

What about taking the money they offered and paying them back at like 0-1% interest lol. That way you aren't in debt with ridiculous accumulating interest.

That's true. There is no deadline for me to pay anything back either. It will be better for the whole family in the long run

 

[Soleus715]

HPSP would solve everything but it is very likely I won't get it.

I'm pretty sure that my standard of living will be very similar to how I live right now for at least 5 years after graduating.
Probably end up working corporate, it's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

 

[Cold Front]

HPSP would solve everything but it is very likely I won't get it.

I'm pretty sure that my standard of living will be very similar to how I live right now for at least 5 years after graduating.
Probably end up working corporate, it's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

And you know this how? Corporate Dentistry is like working at any other corporate chain; Chipotle, Starbucks, Subways.... Except, you are seeing patients, and they have a big say on how fast you should work, and number of patients you see. It may seem fine the first year (during the learning curve), but you will not be excited to be there after that, financially and ethically.

 

[Soleus715]

And you know this how? Corporate Dentistry is like working at any other corporate chain; Chipotle, Starbucks, Subways.... Except, you are seeing patients, and they have a big say on how fast you should work, and number of patients you see. It may seem fine the first year (during the learning curve), but you will not be excited to be there after that, financially and ethically.

My previous comment was in regard to the generalization of corporate dentistry. I'm not saying everyone on SDN/dentaltown thinks this way, but I've seen some negative comments from people that have no experience working in corporate and don't want others to just believe in hearsay. Generalization is toxic to society and that's really the only point I want to make.

Due to my concerns about the future, I spoke with several dentists (including my boss) about the stereotypes of corporate dentistry and their past experience working for companies like Heartland.
Some companies are a lot more relaxed when it comes to how much control you have over your office. They let you decide how much of the clinical/business aspect you want to be involved it and it's not really just a mill like people make it out to be.

The few I spoke with did not see unethical things going on, so I have only read anecdotes on the internet about it. I do trust my boss but I do take everything I hear with a grain of salt.
If you had experience in a corporate chain and saw anything unethical would be willing to share about it?

Honestly, I'm not really too excited about corporate dentistry. Experience will vary based on company/location/boss and I won't have the freedom that comes from having my own practice. If I do end up working for a company that pushes unethical things on me, I would need to get out ASAP. However, I find it extremely hard to believe that all these dentists in corporate dentistry doing unethical things are completely fine with it. I want to believe that people as well educated as dentists would have higher moral standards... But who knows.

I just view it as a potential option for the beginning few years to pay off the dental tuition which has now ballooned up to ridiculous amounts. It's an easy option for many because it's easier to find a job and often times pays more than being an associate.

 

[Cold Front]

My previous comment was in regard to the generalization of corporate dentistry. I'm not saying everyone on SDN/dentaltown thinks this way, but I've seen some negative comments from people that have no experience working in corporate and don't want others to just believe in hearsay. Generalization is toxic to society and that's really the only point I want to make.

Due to my concerns about the future, I spoke with several dentists (including my boss) about the stereotypes of corporate dentistry and their past experience working for companies like Heartland.
Some companies are a lot more relaxed when it comes to how much control you have over your office. They let you decide how much of the clinical/business aspect you want to be involved it and it's not really just a mill like people make it out to be.

The few I spoke with did not see unethical things going on, so I have only read anecdotes on the internet about it. I do trust my boss but I do take everything I hear with a grain of salt.
If you had experience in a corporate chain and saw anything unethical would be willing to share about it?

Honestly, I'm not really too excited about corporate dentistry. Experience will vary based on company/location/boss and I won't have the freedom that comes from having my own practice. If I do end up working for a company that pushes unethical things on me, I would need to get out ASAP. However, I find it extremely hard to believe that all these dentists in corporate dentistry doing unethical things are completely fine with it. I want to believe that people as well educated as dentists would have higher moral standards... But who knows.

I just view it as a potential option for the beginning few years to pay off the dental tuition which has now ballooned up to ridiculous amounts. It's an easy option for many because it's easier to find a job and often times pays more than being an associate.

I worked at Aspen Dental for about 6 months after graduation. It had a lot of positives and negatives. The learning curve was very steep. I went from seeing 2-3 patients a day as a 4th year dental student, to 10-12 a day. I learned every aspect of general dentistry at a greater depth within those months, because the office was in a small town in my home state.

The downside... Where do I start? Well, at Aspen, it's all business. Doctor sees patient, Doctor gives treatment plan (say full upper and lower denture with full mouth extractions). Patient then sees the office manager (patient coordinator), who gives 20 mins sales talk to patient (that full upper and lower denture is now changed from regular denture to the premium top denture the patient can't afford or need), and finally the office management talks patient into paying that $10k treatment plan he/she can't afford through finance plan (CareCredit), which carries high APR. At any other other office, the patient would have paid maybe half of the total cost at Aspen. The patient then gets approved and now Dr. starts the upgraded treatment on patient. This is the basics of what happens at some corporate offices, but Aspen is the reaper of all in my opinion. They were investigated by the government couple of years ago, so look them up on PBS website.

Some dentists don't care about this, but I did. I don't want to be part of ripping patients off business, I want to help within the scope of ethical standards.

 

[Soleus715]

I worked at Aspen Dental for about 6 months after graduation. It had a lot of positives and negatives. The learning curve was very steep. I went from seeing 2-3 patients a day as a 4th year dental student, to 10-12 a day. I learned every aspect of general dentistry at a greater depth within those months, because the office was in a small town in my home state.

The downside... Where do I start? Well, at Aspen, it's all business. Doctor sees patient, Doctor gives treatment plan (say full upper and lower denture with full mouth extractions). Patient then sees the office manager (patient coordinator), who gives 20 mins sales talk to patient (that full upper and lower denture is now changed from regular denture to the premium top denture the patient can't afford or need), and finally the office management talks patient into paying that $10k treatment plan he/she can't afford through finance plan (CareCredit), which carries high APR. At any other other office, the patient would have paid maybe half of the total cost at Aspen. The patient then gets approved and now Dr. starts the upgraded treatment on patient. This is the basics of what happens at some corporate offices, but Aspen is the reaper of all in my opinion. They were investigated by the government couple of years ago, so look them up on PBS website.

Some dentists don't care about this, but I did. I don't want to be part of ripping patients off business, I want to help within the scope of ethical standards.

Wow that sounds awful.. I've read about those offices that have a sales pitch room.. it sucks that patients are being taken advantage of because they trust the dentist knows best.
At my previous job, we offered CareCredit and it was no interest if paid in full within 18 months. But $10,000 in that period of time is impossible for so many families..

I think I've actually seen a PBS documentary or was it BBC.. where the investigator went to a dental school and got diagnosed by two professors who said she just needs a crown. Then she went to dozens of offices to get exams and several dentists gave her $10k tx plans.

I think I found the PBS documentary.. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/dollars-and-dentists/
I'll look into this. Thanks!
--------------------------------------

For the OP, I think that planning is probably the best option. Don't go in blind. Talk to as many people willing to help you and get a good perspective on your situation!

 

[Cello]

I made two Excel sheets a few years back for IBR and PAYE. You can find them in this thread.

The thread which OP's spreadsheet originated from is here. Bereno answers many questions there which may be helpful.

I also created an Excel sheet very similar to Bereno's above with housing, cars, inflation and salary increase over time; but I had included children in it as well. I will see if I can find that one too.

 

[Mascota]

I made two Excel sheets a few years back for IBR and PAYE. You can find them in this thread.

The thread which OP's spreadsheet originated from is here. Bereno answers many questions there which may be helpful.

I also created an Excel sheet very similar to Bereno's above with housing, cars, inflation and salary increase over time; but I had included children in it as well. I will see if I can find that one too.

I would love to see your excel sheet. It's almost a hobby of mine to number crunch haha.

 

[htdt]

This is the best solution. Why pay 7% to the federal government? Instead, pay your parents back at 3%. You win by saving thousands of dollars in interest, and they win since that is a better rate than what they could get from a CD.

It'll also be reassuring to them to have a nice, reliable, guaranteed income stream coming in before social security kicks in.

Sorry for bringing up this thread, but I am not from this country so I have absolutely no idea how loans work. Basically my plan is to take out loans from maybe a private source to fund my 4 years of d-school upfront, then when I graduate my parents can give me some of their savings to pay back. If I do it that way I only need to pay the amount that I borrow without any interest, correct?

 

[Incis0r]

Sorry for bringing up this thread, but I am not from this country so I have absolutely no idea how loans work. Basically my plan is to take out loans from maybe a private source to fund my 4 years of d-school upfront, then when I graduate my parents can give me some of their savings to pay back. If I do it that way I only need to pay the amount that I borrow without any interest, correct?

Good question.

The answer is maybe. Loans may accrue interest while you are in dental school itself. If your loan is at 7% simple interest while in dental school, and you take out $100,000 USD for the first year, that will be $7,000 in interest over years 2, 3, and 4. By the end of dental school, you will owe $21,000 in interest just on that first year's loan. Then you will have additional interest from the loans you took out in your second year and third year.

Depending on your specific loan, the interest may or may not compound during dental school. If it compounds, that means that your previous interest will also generate more interest.

If on the other hand you get a subsidized loan (no interest), then yes you are correct.

 

[htdt]

Good question.

The answer is maybe. Loans may accrue interest while you are in dental school itself. If your loan is at 7% simple interest while in dental school, and you take out $100,000 USD for the first year, that will be $7,000 in interest over years 2, 3, and 4. By the end of dental school, you will owe $21,000 in interest just on that first year's loan. Then you will have additional interest from the loans you took out in your second year and third year.

Depending on your specific loan, the interest may or may not compound during dental school. If it compounds, that means that your previous interest will also generate more interest.

If on the other hand you get a subsidized loan (no interest), then yes you are correct.

Thanks for your response. I haven't really looked into my options, but the federal loans that most people take out for undergrad through FAFSA only start to accrue interest when they graduate, correct? Would it be similar for dental schools' federal loans? How about private loans, do you happen to know if interest compounds over the 4 years of school?

 

[Incis0r]

Thanks for your response. I haven't really looked into my options, but the federal loans that most people take out for undergrad through FAFSA only start to accrue interest when they graduate, correct? Would it be similar for dental schools' federal loans? How about private loans, do you happen to know if interest compounds over the 4 years of school?

There is no single answer to this. It really depends on the individual loan you are approved for. If you get subsidized loans, then no interest while in school. If you get federal unsubsidized loans, then interest accrues in school.

There are too many private lenders with different policies- it's hard to make a general statement about their interest policies.

 

[deebog01]

Any students at schools like these...can you please chime in? Older threads throw around the scholarships like the HPSP and NHSC but these scholarships are highly competitive are they not?

Maybe in-school scholarships. But if you get into a community clinic or FQHC after dental school with a HPSA score or 18 or higher, you should be pretty much guaranteed a check from NHSC. There's also loan forgiveness (if legislators don't cancel the program in the next 10 years), where all of your school debt is forgiven after 10 years of making your minimum payments while employed by a qualifying HPSA center. I'm a huge fan of non-profit over corporate / private practice (for reasons that aren't relevant to this thread).

 

[Cello]

Maybe in-school scholarships. But if you get into a community clinic or FQHC after dental school with a HPSA score or 18 or higher, you should be pretty much guaranteed a check from NHSC. There's also loan forgiveness (if legislators don't cancel the program in the next 10 years), where all of your school debt is forgiven after 10 years of making your minimum payments while employed by a qualifying HPSA center. I'm a huge fan of non-profit over corporate / private practice (for reasons that aren't relevant to this thread).

Be warned that the unpaid balance on your remaining loans counts as income the year it is forgiven. If you make minimum payments for IBR / PAYE and end up writing off $500k in debt then you just earned $500k + your actual salary that year. Imagine paying taxes on $750k of income for a year in which you actually only earned $250k. Painful.

 

[deebog01]

Be warned that the unpaid balance on your remaining loans counts as income the year it is forgiven. If you make minimum payments for IBR / PAYE and end up writing off $500k in debt then you just earned $500k + your actual salary that year. Imagine paying taxes on $750k of income for a year in which you actually only earned $250k. Painful.

The most recent info I read on loan repayment actually said it was tax free. I'll doublecheck.

 

[deebog01]

Be warned that the unpaid balance on your remaining loans counts as income the year it is forgiven. If you make minimum payments for IBR / PAYE and end up writing off $500k in debt then you just earned $500k + your actual salary that year. Imagine paying taxes on $750k of income for a year in which you actually only earned $250k. Painful.

And even if that were the case, it shouldn't be that much. After 10 years of getting loan repayment at 25,000 /yr, you gotta figure that even with interest, your be left with max if $100000 or so with the average cost of tuition. $28000 in taxes can be financed with the IRS in sure. Plus you have 10 yrs to plan.

 

[deebog01]

The most recent info I read on loan repayment actually said it was tax free. I'll doublecheck.

Be warned that the unpaid balance on your remaining loans counts as income the year it is forgiven. If you make minimum payments for IBR / PAYE and end up writing off $500k in debt then you just earned $500k + your actual salary that year. Imagine paying taxes on $750k of income for a year in which you actually only earned $250k. Painful.

Sorry... not loan repayment. That's certainly tax free. Loan forgiveness. Is tax free. Here'a the link and a screenshot. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-...ellation/public-service#receiving-forgiveness

 

[Cello]

Sorry... not loan repayment. That's certainly tax free. Loan forgiveness. Is tax free. Here'a the link and a screenshot. https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-...ellation/public-service#receiving-forgiveness

Oh, you are talking specifically about PSLF (public service loans). In that case yes, the debt is forgiven. I was talking about IBR / PAYE, sorry for the confusion. I see now that you were talking specifically about making payments via NHSC / HPSA.

 

[deebog01]

Oh, you are talking specifically about PSLF (public service loans). In that case yes, the debt is forgiven. I was talking about IBR / PAYE, sorry for the confusion. I see now that you were talking specifically about making payments via NHSC / HPSA.

To the best of my knowledge, you can still take advantage of income-based repayment (IBR) and qualify for public service loan forgiveness (PSLF). The problem is getting a monthly payment that is actually less with IBR than just going thru Fed Loan Servicing. If you end up working for an FQHC (federally qualified health clinic) that offers less than 100K salary, it may be to your advantage... Just look into consolidating your subsidized and unsubsidized fed loans with Fed loan servicing, and compare it to what you would get with IBR for the lowest payment. NHSC / HPSA is a completely different program. That's loan repayment at 25K / yr. As far as I know, you can receive NHSC loan repayment concurrently while working full-time towards PSLF (according to PSLF customer service).

 

[deebog01]

The only problem with PSLF is politics. Their website specifically says that legislation can cancel the program at any time (9 years into your 10 year commitment). But hillary won't mess with government programs, and Trump has bigger fish to fry like Obamacare and immigration, than middle-class doctors. I feel pretty safe right now betting on PSLF... but I wouldn't put your loans into forbearance to make that extra house payment or pay for a trip to Bora Bora.

 

[deebog01]

And the 25K can be applied to intrest and principal... which means you basically stop making loan payments the day you qualify for loan repayment. Loan forgiveness + loan repayment = no more fed loan payments starting the day you leave dental school. As long as you're willing to commit to 10 years of public service... and the risk of legislation cancelling PSLF.

 

[Incis0r]

The only problem with PSLF is politics. Their website specifically says that legislation can cancel the program at any time (9 years into your 10 year commitment). But hillary won't mess with government programs, and Trump has bigger fish to fry like Obamacare and immigration, than middle-class doctors. I feel pretty safe right now betting on PSLF... but I wouldn't put your loans into forbearance to make that extra house payment or pay for a trip to Bora Bora.

And the 25K can be applied to intrest and principal... which means you basically stop making loan payments the day you qualify for loan repayment. Loan forgiveness + loan repayment = no more fed loan payments starting the day you leave dental school. As long as you're willing to commit to 10 years of public service... and the risk of legislation cancelling PSLF.

PSLF doesn't even need to be cancelled....a simple cap introduced on the amount that can be forgiven could remove the benefits for dentists looking for $400-500K in forgiveness.

 

[Redtwogreen]

If I could go back in time we would have looked more closely at HSPS and PSLF. And yes, to answer your question, the military route is competitive. That doesn't mean its not worth a shot! We have a combined student loan debt load of $600k (me dental school, wife law school) and we are paying it off as aggressively as we can on our own. This is our repayment plan here: http://www.redtwogreen.com/rethinking-our-repayment-plan/ Paying off the debt you have described is definitely doable! Just takes a little hustling and or frugal living for a little while.

 

[schmoob]

Thanks for your response. I haven't really looked into my options, but the federal loans that most people take out for undergrad through FAFSA only start to accrue interest when they graduate, correct? Would it be similar for dental schools' federal loans? How about private loans, do you happen to know if interest compounds over the 4 years of school?

Undergrad loans are usually subsidized, while graduate loans are not. In dental school, your interest starts accruing immediately.
It starts accruing, not compounding. Each year you take out a loan, it earns it's own interest based on that balance. So by the end of your 4 years, your loan from D1 will have accrued the most interest. You have a grace period of 6 months after graduating, then the interest capitalizes-meaning it is integrated with your principle balance. At that point, you are now accumulating interest at a compounded rate.

If I could go back in time we would have looked more closely at HSPS and PSLF. And yes, to answer your question, the military route is competitive. That doesn't mean its not worth a shot! We have a combined student loan debt load of $600k (me dental school, wife law school) and we are paying it off as aggressively as we can on our own. This is our repayment plan here: http://www.redtwogreen.com/rethinking-our-repayment-plan/ Paying off the debt you have described is definitely doable! Just takes a little hustling and or frugal living for a little while.

Have you refinanced? If not, PSLF is still an option.

 

[discensdentibus]

I'm investing my student loans in the stock market..