Study medicine in ITaly

[IwannagotoItaly]

Hello. I want to go to Italy to study medicine. I do not know Italian. But I can learn. I have a BS degree from a US University, but I am an EU citizen. I have took no premed class and I have not taken the MCAT. How much does it cost to go to medical school in Italy, and how long does it take? Can students who already have a BS apply and get accepted? Or would I have to take those premed classes like I was applying to a US school? Thanks

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[tlew12778]

Med school in Italy is a combined BS/MD degree. It lasts 6 years after which you will need to do a specialty/residency. You do need to speak Italian to go to medical school here and I believe that you have to prove you can speak Italian with a test. You also need to take an entrance exam for each school.

THe fact that you have already done a BS will make no difference in Italy. I doubt they will give you credit for any courses you have already taken.

 

[f_w]

Italy, great place to live, not so great place to learn medicine.

This is my second hand knowledge:
The italian docs I have talked to so far where not that enthusiastic about their training. The university education is very hands off and academic. Every university has its own admission and training standards.

 

[ny skindoc]

Italy, great place to live, not so great place to learn medicine.

This is my second hand knowledge:
The italian docs I have talked to so far where not that enthusiastic about their training. The university education is very hands off and academic. Every university has its own admission and training standards.

Traditionally Italian med schools have large classes taught with lecture and little hands on or clinical training while in school.Its often up to students to arrange for this experience.If your goal is to return to the US there are far better alternatives.

 

[IwannagotoItaly]

are there other places in europe that one can study medicine for quite cheap that are also easy to get into? I do not mind learning a new language. i am not keen on poland, romania, czech republic because it seems quite expensive. what about france, spain, germany? i do not have the qualifications/money to get into a US school.

 

[tlew12778]

Hm I don't know about that. I mean, it's really up to the student to get the most out of any education in any country I think. My FH has been doing rounds since his 3rd or 4th year here (in Italy), and considering that was also his undergrad, that's fairly early compared to getting clinical experience in the US.

But you're right about classes... attendance is not even required for many of them. You just have to show up for the exam, which is oral, and for which they will ask you 1-3 questions. A lot of students don't even study all the material and just cross their fingers. Then again, I did the same for bio my frosh year of college in the US.

I know plenty of drs that know there stuff. I know an equal number of drs that don't. In both countries.

 

[f_w]

By no means did I want to put down the qualifications of italian physicians. The ones I know are very competent, but they also indicated that they were higly critical of the italian system of training physicians.

As for the orignal poster:
The only places that will take you regardless of your qualifications are the commercial outfits in the caribbean and hungary. In France, Germany and Spain access into medical school is competitive and based on your merits alone.

 

[PathOne]

are there other places in europe that one can study medicine for quite cheap that are also easy to get into? I do not mind learning a new language. i am not keen on poland, romania, czech republic because it seems quite expensive. what about france, spain, germany? i do not have the qualifications/money to get into a US school.

Generally, getting a medical degree EITHER requires you to have the qualifications to get accepted on your merits, OR having the financial resources to "pay your way" through an offshore program.

Having NEITHER is a losing proposition, I'm afraid...

 

[Furrball]

If you are an EU citizens who apparently speaks English why not attend school in Britain? Then once you are a doc you can move to Italy. I think I read around here that there is reciprocity wthin the EU countries.

 

[Miklos]

As for the orignal poster:
The only places that will take you regardless of your qualifications are the commercial outfits in the caribbean and hungary. In France, Germany and Spain access into medical school is competitive and based on your merits alone.

To describe the schools in Hungary as commercial outfits is a misnomer. They are fully part of the local state university. They will (as will many other European six year programs) easily admit paying students. However, this is NOT a guarantee of a degree, as the overall attrition rate easily exceeds 50% for both locals and foreigners.

Though entrance to French schools is based on merit, selection occurs at the end of the 1st year. According to a post by a French student, the top fifth advance, the rest remain behind. An acquantaince of mine attended a Spanish school, he told me that they had a similar system and that most people there took more than six years to finish the degree. Regarding Germany, admission is restricted (a good number of Germans not able to gain admission in Germany come to Hungary for German language programs).

Re: Britain. Unless you can prove that you were residing within the EU for the last three years, you will have to pay tuition as a foreigner.

 

[C. Ronaldo]

Most of the people here are total tools - keep that in mind. I have already been informed that I can study in Germany. I have a degree in Advertising from the University of Florida and I also have not taken the MCAT or any premed classes. All I have to do is pass a German language entrance test and I can study whatever I want - including medicine. This is coming straight from the admissions coordinator of the University of Jena in Germany.

 

[Vitaliano333]

The italian docs I have talked to so far where not that enthusiastic about their training. The university education is very hands off and academic.

As an Italian doc (and an Italian in general) I think we are a little too quick to minimize the qualities of our universities and med schools. I personally think that, while it's great to have a lot of "hands on" training, the academic aspects of medicine should be the primary focus of med school. And I feel that the more prestigious universities in Italy (Milan, Pisa, Pavia, etc.) are second to none when it comes to delivering breadth and a strong knowledge base. They won't specifically prepare you for the USMLEs, mind you, although with all the question banks and "how to" books out there, you could probably pass these tests straight out of high school with enough time. The true caveats for the American student:
1) Firstly, you have to realize that you are on Italian time. By the time you are done with all your courses, exams, thesis, etc. you can easily be there 1 or 2 years longer than you had anticipated, especially if you are unfamiliar with the language. As a matter of fact, that is the norm. Now the handful of Americans I met during med school didn't seem to mind spending extra time there, but that is something to keep in mind nonetheless.
2) It will be difficult to obtain very competitive residencies in the US without US clinical experience or a strong research background, which usually means even more time, if that's what interests you.
On the other hand, I think that witnessing another health care system (and culture) can't help but broaden your horizons and make you a more complete person and, consequently, doctor.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[PathOne]

Most of the people here are total tools - keep that in mind. I have already been informed that I can study in Germany. I have a degree in Advertising from the University of Florida and I also have not taken the MCAT or any premed classes. All I have to do is pass a German language entrance test and I can study whatever I want - including medicine. This is coming straight from the admissions coordinator of the University of Jena in Germany.

Who's the tool? Do you honestly believe that ANY country will train docs for free, without entry requirements or selection procedures?

"certain courses of study are much sought after and the demand exceeds the number of places available. Students from Germany and the European Union must therefore undergo a selection procedure. The decisive element here is the average grade required for admission. Students from other countries are not subject to this procedure. But that doesn't mean that an unlimited number of students are accepted. To the contrary. For instance in subjects such as medicine and psychology, only a fixed number of foreigners who are not citizens of the European Union are admitted. Here too the selection process is subject to the average grade laid down by the institution of higher education. "

Add to that, the fact that medicine by law is a six year study in Germany, that the structure is by no means geared towards aceing the USMLE, and that it's generally difficult to take US rotations, and thus gain US LoR's.

Oh, and getting fluency in German isn't easy. Especially not if you're a "tool".

You might want to recheck the facts with that admissions coordinator of yours.

The ONLY country that basically admits everyone to medicine is France, which uncerimoniously weeds out the students through tough examinations.

Sorry, there's no free lunch if you want to be a physician.

 

[Furrball]

Re: Britain. Unless you can prove that you were residing within the EU for the last three years, you will have to pay tuition as a foreigner.

Not surprising, I brought it up as a possible solution for an EU citizen. I read somewhere on these boards about how in can be difficult for non-EU citizens, or at least non-EU trained docs, to get licensed in Europe. It's not as if we don't pay for med school here. I love looking at my statemetn from the Dept of Education and counting all of the zeros... to the left of the decimal point

 

[C. Ronaldo]

Believe what you want. There are selection procedures - if you are a foreign student, you have to have either the equivalent of a high Abitur pass or a Bachelors degree from an accredited University - which I have. You may also want to check out this thread :

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=174365&highlight=study+germany

This shows you and I having a conversation where you clearly agree that studying medicine in Germany is the best option for me. Here let me copy and paste what you said :

Since you are a UK citizen, you can basically get your training for free, and be able to "port" your license anywhere you want to within Europe (also bear in mind, that unlike in the US there is NO standarized way to get a non-European medical degree and/or board certification approved in Europe). So your plan makes perfect sense, provided that you become fluent in German.
So best of luck with your plans...

Do you feel dormant now? There are also other threads if you search for "Study medicine in Germany" in this forum that discuss how some American students have gone to Germany to study medicine, with just a bachelors degree, no MCAT or premed courses. And the German government paid for everything but a tiny student fee of a few hundred Euros a semester. Times are changing and fees may be introduced in Germany, but maybe 500 Euro a semester.

You should at least try and remember stuff that you have written in the past. And just to really ram the point into your dim mind, here is a email from the International Office of Jena University in Germany. I have even highlighted the appropriate part of the email so you don't get confused.

Dear Mr. C. Ronaldo,

thnak you for your interest in the University of Jena.

Because you have a first academic degree you are allowed to study each and any subject you want to. That is why, you can directly apply for the subject medicine.Yet, since you are citizen of GB, you must apply to the ZVS (Zentralvergabe für Studienplätze) in Dortmund and not to our university.
The address for the ZVS is the following:
ZVS, 44128 Dortmund

Please also have a look at the homepage of the ZVS under:
http://www.zvs.de
where you find additional information about the application procedure and others.

I also inform you that the subject medicine can only be talen up by each winter semester only. Thus, the deadline for your application is July 15th, 2005.

If you have further questions, please do not hesitate to contact me again.

With kind regards

Manja Gerlach

Is it slowly dawning on you that you have no idea what you are talking about? More importantly than that, you should not shoot down other peoples ideas and dreams just because you have a notion that "there's no free lunch if you want to be a physician." Nobody said anything about it being a free-lunch. Nobody said how well studying in Germany would prepare someone for the USMLE. But quite clearly, it IS easier to get into med school in Germany, and it IS cheaper.

 

[PathOne]

IF you become a physician, I certainly hope you will communicate more civilized with your patients than you do on this board.

Your reply perfectly proves my point: Application for the study of medicine in Germany IS selective. Thus, you need (as an EU citizen) to apply to the zvs, who determines if you can be accepted or not. In the case of non-EU citizens, that selection is made by the university you apply to.

Even with my "dim mind", I really can't see that your post proves anything else but that you are eligible to APPLY for admittance to a medical school. Believe me, you will not be alone.

I appreciate the fact that my previous posts have made enough of an impression on you to remember them. If you personally gets accepted and graduate, all is well. However, your original post in this thread could only be read as if there was no selection process for the study of medicine in Germany. I think it is good that you have now proven yourself that this is not the case.

Auf wiedersehen.

 

[PathOne]

To get some facts on the operating table:

German acceptance rate, winter semester 2004:
Number of places/Applicants: 8444/33921 = 24.69%
Summer semester: 1529/15155 = 10.09%
Total 2004: 9973/49076 = 20.32%

Source: zvs

Sure doesn't look like Germany accepts anyone who wants to study medicine....

 

[C. Ronaldo]

You missed my point, which is understandable and expected. I will try and explain to you, but I know it is probably futile. The typical German applicant is 18 years old and has just completed something called the Abitur, which is similiar to English A-levels. As Medicine in Germany is an undergraduate degree, you can start your medical education at 18 years old provided you have a good enough Abitur score to get in.

The average American medical school applicant already has a bachelors degree, has complete 8 premedical courses in chemistry, biology, physics and calculus and has took a stringent MCAT test to review their knowledge. This makes the American applicant OVERQUALIFIED to get into Germany (because in the US, Medicine is a graduate degree). This pretty much means it is a cake-walk for US grads to go to medical school in Germany (barring language). Of course, you will probably find few Americans applying because it is easier to go to an English speaking European program such as the ones in Poland, Hungary, ect.

The statistics you have presented will be based off German citizens who are trying to apply for medicine in Germany. These students only have an Abitur (remember - similiar to UK's A-levels - much lower than a US bachelors degree) As I already have mentioned these students are disadvantaged when compared to US students, because they do not already have a Bachelors degree.

I have clearly demonstrated that for someone who already has a Bachelors degree or greater from an accredited school, going to medical school in Germany, is easier to gain acceptance than in the US (barring language).

If you recall, the OP who wanted to go to Italy, hasn't got an Abitur. He has a US Bachelors degree. We have already proved that because of this, he can walk straight into a medical program in Germany (barring a language test). I think you might be able to understand that statistics of 18-year old Germans and there Abitur's will have nothing to do with him and his degree.

 

[PathOne]

If only you would spend less time constructing condescending replies and more time providing facts.

Where exactly is your data backing up the contention that it's easier for an American than a German to get into a German school financed almost entirely by the German taxpayers? Don't you think it would be just a little strange if that was in fact true?

Apparently, you have NOT yet been accepted yourself, nor are you in fact able to apply before you have proven fluency in German.
Furthermore, your contention should apply to every six-year course in Europe, including the UK. So why are Americans preferring to pay six-figure numbers to graduate from more or less established Caribbean schools?

Perhaps it is because:
1. Regular European medical schools are designed to educate doctors in that nation. Hence, it's not as easy to get in as a foreigner as it might appear.
2. The course of study is at least 50% longer than in the US.
3. Getting to the point of fluency sufficient to undertake medical training isn't exactly easy.
4. Unlike Caribbean schools, European medical schools doesn't prepare you specifically for taking the USMLE.

For you personally, Germany might be an excellent choice, because you don't want to practise in the US and can't get the Home Rate in the UK. Also, your chances of getting into Jena are certainly higher than say Charité, because Jena isn't exactly considered top tier in Germany.
However, for the vast majority of users on this forum, Germany, for the reasons mentioned above, is far from an obvious choice.

Oh, and by the way: The numbers I quoted includes applicants such as yourself, i.e. non-German but EU-citizens, and those numbers show that there's more than twice the number of applicants per spot than in the US. Furthermore, Germany places hard limits on the number of spots available to non-EU citizens. Do you have those numbers? Have you bothered to look for them? If so, please share them...

 

[f_w]

C Ronaldo,

As an EU citizen with a secondary educational qualification from the EU space you will have to apply to medschool in germany through the 'ZVS', just like anyone else. You will count towards the 'Bildungsinlaender' system, despite the fact that you didn't get your qualifying degree domestically. (I don't know how they credit your A-levels for the entrance criteria, but it won't be easy. Have you gone through the process yet ?)

As a US citizen with a bachelors you would apply as 'Bildungsauslaender' directly to the university of your choice. Some universities in the east like Jena might indeed cut you some slack, but as the email from the admissions coordinator in Jena indicates, you are not eligible for this route.

Going back to the OP:
There is no 'cheap and easy'. You can find cheap OR easy, but not both.

 

[C. Ronaldo]

F_W - I do not have A-levels. I am an EU citizen with a US Bachelors degree.

Where exactly is your data backing up the contention that it's easier for an American than a German to get into a German school financed almost entirely by the German taxpayers?

Again, the elements of reading have escaped you. I never said it was easier for an American to get into a German school. I said it was easier for an American with a Bachelors degree to get into school over a German student with an Abitur. Your average American student with just a High School Diploma would have a horrid time getting into a German medical school, because of inequivalency of the American high-school system and the German one. But the American student with a Bachelors degree would be fine. If you do not believe me, then here is a link that explains how foreign qualifications are interpreted in Germany.

http://www.ifos.de/anabin/scripts/SelectLand.asp?SuchLand=124&MyURL=WWWBItypView.asp

If you click on the Bachelor of Science link, you will find some babble in German that translates very roughly into "If you have completed 4-years of study at an accredited University, then you can study in Germany".

Furthermore, your contention should apply to every six-year course in Europe, including the UK. So why are Americans preferring to pay six-figure numbers to graduate from more or less established Caribbean schools?

Have you heard of the concept of "different countries"? Why should my contention apply to all countries in Europe? That is simply nonsense. Different countries have different education systems. It is overwhelmingly obvious why students would prefer the Caribbean over Europe. 1) You don't have to learn a new language 2) Its a lot closer to home than Europe 3) They have a reputation of producing graduates who have already attained residency positions in the US.

Unfortunately, you are wrong on another point. You do not have to prove fluency until after you have been accepted. This is achieved by taking a test called the TestDaf or DSH which one would take in September or October. You have to pass the test to register, but not to be accepted. There is even an article on Deutsche Welle reporting how many students travel to Germany only having to return to their native land because they could not pass the language test.

As for whether Jena University is a considered a top-tier University, makes no difference. You can become as good of a doctor as you want to become based on motivation and desire, not based on the title and prestige of your school. You are not automatically a great doctor because your diploma says "Harvard Medical School". Besides, a doctor is a doctor. I would sooner be one from a crap school, than not be one at all. But then again I'm not pretentious.

Again, I post this information so other people will not be discouraged by the nay-sayers and the people who all too easily crap all over other peoples ideas, however off the beaten path they may be. PathOne, whether I go on to Germany to study medicine is really none of your business, and if you make is so it is more out of spite and maliciousness than caring and compassion. I never have questioned your decisions or goals - because I could care less. I wanted to help to OP see a clearer view of the truth. Try to learn to mind your own business.

 

[f_w]

> I do not have A-levels. I am an EU citizen
> with a US Bachelors degree.

Ok ok, so you have a US high-school diploma as primary qualification to attend university. Too bad, you are still forced to apply through the ZVS bc of your EU citizenship. Good luck then.

> If you click on the Bachelor of Science link, you will
> find some babble in German that translates very
> roughly into "If you have completed 4-years of
> study at an accredited University, then you can
> study in Germany".

Enjoy your german fluency exam. So far you are not doing such a great job in the 'Uebersetzung' and 'Leseverstehen' categories ;-)))
(you might want to take the exam with the Goethe institute beforehand, that way your plans won't be derailed by failing the fluency test)

 

[C. Ronaldo]

Ich studiere Deutsch seit zwei Monate. Ich schreibe Deutsch schlecht.

 

[PathOne]

Don't know if I should laugh or cry. But let's try once more to get the facts on the table.

I said it was easier for an American with a Bachelors degree to get into school over a German student with an Abitur. Your average American student with just a High School Diploma would have a horrid time getting into a German medical school, because of inequivalency of the American high-school system and the German one. But the American student with a Bachelors degree would be fine. If you do not believe me, then here is a link that explains how foreign qualifications are interpreted in Germany..

Yes, if you have a US Bachelor's, you're eligible to APPLY for a university. But there's still the small matter of getting accepted. But perhaps you'd think they'll automatically accept a US grad for his/her novelty? In 2001 (lastest available data) there was a grand total of 211 US citizens attending German universities (all fields). That's out of a student body of 1.3 million. Foreign graduates, including ethnic Germans, comprised 4.2% of the medical student body.
http://leb.bildung-rp.de/info/sonstiges/kmk/statistik/kmk_165.pdf
http://www.destatis.de/basis/e/biwiku/hochtab2.htm
Sure seems like the "free access" to German medical training - or German universities in general - is a well-kept secret in the US.

Have you heard of the concept of "different countries"? Why should my contention apply to all countries in Europe? That is simply nonsense. Different countries have different education systems. It is overwhelmingly obvious why students would prefer the Caribbean over Europe. 1) You don't have to learn a new language 2) Its a lot closer to home than Europe 3) They have a reputation of producing graduates who have already attained residency positions in the US.

Well, I'm glad we agree on something.

Unfortunately, you are wrong on another point. You do not have to prove fluency until after you have been accepted. This is achieved by taking a test called the TestDaf or DSH which one would take in September or October. You have to pass the test to register, but not to be accepted.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's not me that's wrong.
"NOTE!: If you apply for a degree with limited acceptances (i.e. medicine) you need to present the DSH certificate before the application deadline."
("ACHTUNG!: Bei der Bewerbung für einen zulassungs-beschränkten Studiengang ist der Nachweis der DSH bereits bis zum Bewerbungstermin zu erbringen.")
http://www.uni-jena.de/Semestertermine.html#spr
This is the word from "your" university. By the way, you'd generally need the equivalent of 700-1,000 course hours of German to pass the DSH or TestDaf.
"Prüfungsteilnehmer sollten vor der Anmeldung zur Prüfung bereits ca. 700 bis 1000 Unterrichtseinheiten Deutsch absolviert haben."
www.testdaf.de

As for whether Jena University is a considered a top-tier University, makes no difference.

Except if you ever plan to work outside Germany, in which case it might be helpful if your school has some degree of international peer recognition and international contacts.

Besides, a doctor is a doctor. I would sooner be one from a crap school, than not be one at all. But then again I'm not pretentious.

No, just ill informed, rude and condescending.

Again, I post this information so other people will not be discouraged by the nay-sayers and the people who all too easily crap all over other peoples ideas, however off the beaten path they may be. PathOne, whether I go on to Germany to study medicine is really none of your business, and if you make is so it is more out of spite and maliciousness than caring and compassion. I never have questioned your decisions or goals - because I could care less. I wanted to help to OP see a clearer view of the truth. Try to learn to mind your own business.

By all means go to Germany, if they'll accept you. I'm certainly not saying they wouldn't. But your contention that anyone with a US degree can surf into a German medical school and be accepted simply by presenting a US undergrad diploma, is just plain wrong.

That makes it my business. Because it would be sad if others should be under the delusion that Germany will simply give away free (or cheap) medical school spots to any US grad who applies.

 

[Miklos]

Great thread.

Really. I mean it.

Shows the importance of doing your homework, learning the language (or alternatively having someone who is fluent and 'in the know' translate!) and customs of a foreign country.

Miklos

 

[C. Ronaldo]

PathOne, having a discussion with you is like trying to play Half-Life on a Commodore 64. Your ability to drudge up totally irrelevant statistics only shows off the surprising amount of free time on your hands. Just because there were only 211 Americans studying in Germany does not prove it is easy or hard to get accepted. Have you ever thought that maybe not many Americans WANT to study in Germany? Why? Because it takes years to become excellent in the language and they would be far far away from home. The average prospective American medical student, upon their failure to be accepted into a US school will most likely try the DO route, or go to the Caribbean, after that I suspect they would try the 4-year Eastern European programs. Very few of them would consider learning German to attend medical school there.

Prospective medical students who are willing to put in the time and effort to learn a different language and make sure they do the right things, can find a medical education for a lot less money than the US and the Caribbean. Medical school is also free in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark. Of course you have to learn the language and I believe there is a stringent admissions test, but that doesn't mean it is impossible. And of course in Germany it is possible too. You will have to learn the language, take a German test, have your transcripts evaluated, but it will be much cheaper than the US and easier to gain acceptance than a US medical school.

I am sorry but whether you like it or not, American graduates with a decent grade point average can study in Germany for a lot less money than America. Whether that fits into your believe system of it being a "free lunch" is something you will have to deal with.

I believe I have given you a fair chance to prove that you have something worthwhile to say. Alas I have stuggled to find it. You have attempted valiantly to cut down my idea, but with nothing concrete. Even after I showed you an email from the Admissions Coordinator, you still refused to believe it, resorting to the "that University is too crap for me" tactic. This shows you could possibly be a dogmatic and unreasonable person. A person unwilling or unable to see any opinion other than his own. I will say you are excellent at the art of pulling up statistics that do not back up your argument.

I do not believe I have anything more to say to you - we are both convinced we are right. I am willing to believe you are correct (because I do not want to waste a long time learning German for nothing), provided that you show some kind of definite evidence. So far nothing you have said or shown is anything close to that. All you have to say is "If its so easy then why aren't all Americans doing it?" I answered that in the first paragraph. You were correct about the DSH test however. Don't be so pissed off because you will graduate from medical school with $100,000 + debt. Maybe you can go to Germany too. Oh, I forgot, it won't train you for the USMLE so you won't make the big bucks back in the States right?

 

[f_w]

C Ronaldo,

I still don't quite get your point.

For anyone else who is still interested:

Yes, it is possible to study medicine in germany for foreign students. Every year, german medical schools accept students from norway, various african countries, the middle east, iran (many), south america etc. And yes, once in a while, you will find an american studying medicine in germany. (All of the ones I have met had either family ties to the country or spent a substantial time there in the armed services.)
Tuition at this point in time is minimal and all you have to come up with is room and board. There is no formal entry exam (the MCATS equivalent was abolished in the 90s), acceptance is mainly based on your high school GPA (or equivalent), individual schools can use additional criteria to rank applicants. Before you can be accepted into medical school, you have to pass a language test. Most of the foreign students either learned german in school in their home country or they graduated from classes at the Goethe Institute (german cultural exchange organization, similar to the Instituto Cervantes in spain for example)

There are NO publicly available stats regarding the acceptance rate for students applying to the medical schools directly (non-EU citizen applicants). For EU citizen applicants and everyone who finished high-school in germany it is historically in the 20-25% range.

Naturally, the curriculum doesn't prepare you specifically for the USMLE. However, medicine isn't too different the world over, the people motivated to go to the US have no problems to obtain competitive scores in the USMLE.

 

[PathOne]

Heureka! Finally, we are actually in agreement!

Prospective medical students who are willing to put in the time and effort to learn a different language and make sure they do the right things, can find a medical education for a lot less money than the US and the Caribbean. Medical school is also free in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark. Of course you have to learn the language and I believe there is a stringent admissions test, but that doesn't mean it is impossible. And of course in Germany it is possible too. You will have to learn the language, take a German test, have your transcripts evaluated, but it will be much cheaper than the US and easier to gain acceptance than a US medical school.

Yes, of course it is possible to study medicine in Europe, also as a US citizen/graduate. Provided one fulfills the language requrements and is admitted.

I never claimed the opposite. Only, that anyone would have to fulfill the application requirements AND be selected. A Bachelor's degree might be helpful, but cannot be a guarantee for admittance, and while acceptance standards vary, nowhere in Europe can one expect to get admitted, without a fairly thorough examination of one's personal and professional merits. Not even the more established Caribbean schools will do that.

And yes, studying in Germany, or a number of other European countries, would certainly be cheaper than in the US. However, there are other direct and indirect costs, not only financially, but also personally. If anyone makes a reasoned decision that this makes sense, gain admittance, and graduate, all is well.

Of course it should be remembered that unlike the offshore schools, the European medical schools, with a few exceptions, are geared towards providing medical care for the nationals of that country, and not in the US. Conversely, the European schools are almost universally acceptable, even for those seeking licensing in Calif, NM, Texas and Kansas.

Oh, and C. Ronaldo: Don't worry about my future. I am long past medical school.

So, once again, as others have written to the OP: There are hard ways and expensive ways to get a medical degree. But there is no easy AND inexpensive ways. All in all, Europe would probably best be described as being in the inexpensive but hard category, for the reasons mentioned by C. Ronaldo.

 

[mgambacorta]

Hello Vito,

It sounds like you are quite informed about the medical education system in Italy. I am an EU citizen bt not a resident. I would like to know where I could find a ranked list of Italian medical schools. Do any of them have US affiliations for residency programmes?
I look forward to hearing from you.
Malisa Gambacorta

 

[Vitaliano333]

It sounds like you are quite informed about the medical education system in Italy. I am an EU citizen bt not a resident. I would like to know where I could find a ranked list of Italian medical schools. Do any of them have US affiliations for residency programmes?
I look forward to hearing from you.
Malisa Gambacorta

I happen to be an Italian graduate, which explains my being informed. To answer your questions, I am unaware of any ranked lists of Italian med schools. People are generally less obsessed by rankings there. But there are a number of university centers that attract patients from all over the country and are known to offer quality health care to patients and a solid education for students. To the ones I've already listed, I would add Bologna and Padova, among others. These, by the way, are all great places to live. But that being said, the curricula are virtually the same for all Italian med schools.
As for US affiliations, I am unaware of any. That wasn't a factor for me when I enrolled in med school and thus I never really enquired about it. You may want to contact your local Italian consulate for that kind of information. In any case, if there is such an affiliation, it is probably tentative at best.
Just as an aside, I think that many people in the US are somewhat misinformed as to what Italian med schools are like currently. In fact, it is my understanding that Italy was a popular destination for Americans until the advent of the Carib schools (early 80s?). That was still a time when, on the heels of the student movements of the late 60's, anyone with a high school diploma could enroll in med school in Italy. That led to grossly overcrowded classrooms filled with many students whom weren't particularly motivated. But since the mid to late 80's, each school has been limiting their spots to a certain number, so the situation has improved considerably.

 

[brightblueeyes]

...The ONLY country that basically admits everyone to medicine is France, which uncerimoniously weeds out the students through tough examinations...

I think PathOne has been bang on with everything posted so far except this one detail, and even this is really a technicality. A French bac automatically gives a French citizen the right to register for the concours (basically 1st year Medicine) but only in the academic region in which the bac was obtained and only in the year immediately following the bac. In all other scenarios, especially foreign applications, admission is by dossier and is competitive. I mention this because I originally tried applying through an agency and the person I talked with told me I had no chance of getting into a parisian med school. Fortunately, she was wrong.

All that aside, PathOne and Miklos are right that the real selection occurs at the end of the first year--the infamous concours. After that, basically, no one fails.

German med schools sound like a saner route. But I think C Ronaldo is grossly underestimating the difficulty of the German language test. Everything I've heard leads me to believe that it's fairly difficult (much tougher, I think, than the French test I had to take). And it looks like you've only been studying German for two months...ouch. I hope you're gifted with languages (I'm not being sarcastic). If you get in, let all us naysayers know.

Good luck,

 

[tlew12778]

There are affiliations with US schools and Italian schools. However, you have to go through a program (the name of it escapes me right now) that basically lets you do a couple months abroad. It's similar to the Erasmus program but is only amongst hospitals. The US is quite competitive and I don't know anyone that has successfully done their "exchange" there. I know people who have gone to Brazil, India, and Tunisia.

There are also some tentative affiliations for residency programs but as any Italian will tell you, one needs to take this kind of relationship with a grain of salt. There are some who say you can "freeze" your Italian residency for a year and go to the US (or any other country for that matter), while others are skeptical. That's simply the way that Italy works.

 

[mgambacorta]

In Sept 2002 I had a meeting with the Dean of Medicine at the University of Toronto and he recommended that I attend medical school in Italy. I spent a couple of months near Rome in 2003 and realize that it is quite a change of pace. I can't seem to find comprehensive lists of medical schools that accept international students, or, at least, sites for the medical schools to see what the residency requirements and fees are.
I would greatly appreciate any direction anyone has to provide.
thanks
malisa g

 

[tlew12778]

I don't think there are any residency requirements per se. Tuition is based on your tax filings for the last year. If you didn't file taxes (or don't provide some way to prove how much you earned) then you just pay the max basically. The max is cheap too... like 2500 euro or something for the entire year.

You will need to go to each individual school's website and look up the foreign student secretary's office (I assume you speak Italian but it will be called something like segretaria studenti stranieri / internazionali). Once upon a time I had a list with the links but I think I deleted it.

Anyway the schools you will probably want to look at are Milan (unimi.it), Cattolica (the school is based in Milan but the Medicine major is in Rome at Gemelli -- unicat.it), Sapienza (rome), Firenze, Bologna (I just assume they have a med degree there), Sienna (the foreign student uni is there so they probably have some experience with foreigners), Aquila (my dad's American cardiologist went there and he practices in the US now), Napoli... not sure if you want to go to Sicily but there is med there as well... oh and I think Genova has a med program too.

ETA: a few links
http://studenti.unimi.it/foreign/ital.htm (Univ of Milan)
http://www.med.unifi.it/segreteria/segreteria.htm#1 (Univ of Florence)
http://w3.uniroma1.it/guida-medicina-a/immatri.htm (Univ of Rome)

 

[C. Ronaldo]

i havent been following this thread recently. i doubt i will go to germany. i was doing ok with the german but i cannot study right now namely because there is too much stuff going on, mainly watching my dad die of lung cancer while doctors treat him like a lab rat. it is not really a very happy environment for effective learning. perhaps i will pick up the german after it is all over, but im thinking maybe it would just be easier to go to england and do a-levels. i will see.

to be honest, i wouldnt be surprised if this experience would change my mind if i want to follow the career of a doctor. i have been disgusted with the doctors we have been dealing with for the past 7 months since he was diagnosed. i havent met one nice one - they are all intoxicated with their own self-importance and they remind me of little cockroaches scurrying around feeding off the sick.

 

[PathOne]

i havent been following this thread recently. i doubt i will go to germany. i was doing ok with the german but i cannot study right now namely because there is too much stuff going on, mainly watching my dad die of lung cancer while doctors treat him like a lab rat. it is not really a very happy environment for effective learning. perhaps i will pick up the german after it is all over, but im thinking maybe it would just be easier to go to england and do a-levels. i will see.

to be honest, i wouldnt be surprised if this experience would change my mind if i want to follow the career of a doctor. i have been disgusted with the doctors we have been dealing with for the past 7 months since he was diagnosed. i havent met one nice one - they are all intoxicated with their own self-importance and they remind me of little cockroaches scurrying around feeding off the sick.

I'm sorry to hear about your father and his experiences. Unfortunately, lung cancer is a very serious disease, but hopefully he will be able to recover.

However, your experience highlights another very important aspect of medicine: In order to be a good physician, one not only needs intelligence, preserverance and good academic skills. It is also important to be compassionate and have empathy for patients and their families, and be able to communicate and have an understanding for the emotional and physical pressures that comes with being ill.

 

[Skills]

where are the best hospitals in italy in terms of either prestige or known excellent training?

 

[tlew12778]

That's hard to say. It also depends on if you want to go back to the US (if you're from there) as well as what specialty you want to consider. For instance, I know that Gemelli has some working relationships with some hospitals in the US bc my fiance is considering doing his residency there. But if you want to go into Oncology, I would say go to Milan bc the European Insititute of Oncology is there.

One thing is for sure, there's no US News type ranking for colleges in Italy, so you're not going to find any "official" rankings of schools in Italy.

 

[Hajni]

I am currently studying at a us med school, but would love to do an elective rotation in Hungary during my 4th year. Does any one know, if the school in Hungary take internetional students for rotations, and if so, who should I contact to set up the elective? Thanks.

 

[Miklos]

I am currently studying at a us med school, but would love to do an elective rotation in Hungary during my 4th year. Does any one know, if the school in Hungary take internetional students for rotations, and if so, who should I contact to set up the elective? Thanks.

They do. (Although a lot of exchange students from other parts of Europe, at least, treat it like a vacation.)

You can go through either the formal exchange programs (see http://www.ifmsa.org/ for the international version or http://www.humsirc.hu/ for the Hungarian one) or directly contact a clinical department at a Hungarian medical university and arrange it on your own.

The universities are (alphabetically):

• Debrecen
• Pecs
• Semmelweis (Budapest)
• Szeged

Good luck.

Miklos

 

[stimu13]

hello......my name is mina micheal...i am a general practioner....i got my bechalor in medicine from alexandria university in 2010....now i wanna travel to italy to be a doctor there......so wat steps i should do....
plz waiting for ur help

 

[Petra6777]

Hi everybody, Iam a graduate of generale medicine from Slovakia, I lived 6 years in USA and living curently in Italy. Iam EU citizen, doe's anybody know where to start with applying for residency? It would be a great help, I know I need to pass the test from Italian{ which I studied on high school for 4 years, currently speaking Italian, not great, but on basic level}. Thank you so much for response, just have to start somewhere.

 

[Parzii]

Hello,
I am medical student in 3rd year studying in Romania at University of Gr T Popa, don't know if you have heard of it, its in Iasi City to N. E in Romania.
I wish to get a transfer to a med school in Italy or Spain because the standards here are not up to level and there aren't good chances of staying back after I graduate.
I am currently studying in English and wish to continue studying in an English program.
Please advise me on the transfer procedures and the range of tuition fees because I can not afford an expensive university!
thank you.

 

[alex9913]

...
I wish to get a transfer to a med school in Italy or Spain because the standards here are not up to level and there aren't good chances of staying back after I graduate.
I am currently studying in English and wish to continue studying in an English program.
...

I think you really should consider Italy, and specifically Pavia. I study here in a special English program and we pay just like any other student in public University here (between 300-3800 euro/year)

 

[severino]

As an Italian doc (and an Italian in general) I think we are a little too quick to minimize the qualities of our universities and med schools. I personally think that, while it's great to have a lot of "hands on" training, the academic aspects of medicine should be the primary focus of med school. And I feel that the more prestigious universities in Italy (Milan, Pisa, Pavia, etc.) are second to none when it comes to delivering breadth and a strong knowledge base. They won't specifically prepare you for the USMLEs, mind you, although with all the question banks and "how to" books out there, you could probably pass these tests straight out of high school with enough time. The true caveats for the American student:
1) Firstly, you have to realize that you are on Italian time. By the time you are done with all your courses, exams, thesis, etc. you can easily be there 1 or 2 years longer than you had anticipated, especially if you are unfamiliar with the language. As a matter of fact, that is the norm. Now the handful of Americans I met during med school didn't seem to mind spending extra time there, but that is something to keep in mind nonetheless.
2) It will be difficult to obtain very competitive residencies in the US without US clinical experience or a strong research background, which usually means even more time, if that's what interests you.
On the other hand, I think that witnessing another health care system (and culture) can't help but broaden your horizons and make you a more complete person and, consequently, doctor.
Just my 2 cents.

certainly as a new yorker who many years ago followed in the steps...of many who graduated from the university of bologna...confirm your statement...i may add the difficulty in passing the USMLE is great due to the oral exams , i took thirty plus a thesis and the different approach to medicine in general in italy we study lots and lots of pathology...so if you plan to go back to the usa, start doing those usmle questions early on...

 

[severino]

As an Italian doc (and an Italian in general) I think we are a little too quick to minimize the qualities of our universities and med schools. I personally think that, while it's great to have a lot of "hands on" training, the academic aspects of medicine should be the primary focus of med school. And I feel that the more prestigious universities in Italy (Milan, Pisa, Pavia, etc.) are second to none when it comes to delivering breadth and a strong knowledge base. They won't specifically prepare you for the USMLEs, mind you, although with all the question banks and "how to" books out there, you could probably pass these tests straight out of high school with enough time. The true caveats for the American student:
1) Firstly, you have to realize that you are on Italian time. By the time you are done with all your courses, exams, thesis, etc. you can easily be there 1 or 2 years longer than you had anticipated, especially if you are unfamiliar with the language. As a matter of fact, that is the norm. Now the handful of Americans I met during med school didn't seem to mind spending extra time there, but that is something to keep in mind nonetheless.
2) It will be difficult to obtain very competitive residencies in the US without US clinical experience or a strong research background, which usually means even more time, if that's what interests you.
On the other hand, I think that witnessing another health care system (and culture) can't help but broaden your horizons and make you a more complete person and, consequently, doctor.
Just my 2 cents.

after having completed a degree in pharmacy in a new york university, st johns i decided to enroll at the university school of medicine in bologna many years ago, it was not uncommon coz in the city of new york there were many who , since the fifties would study there, i found the oral form of exam difficult at first but when i got to anatomia patologica i was on my way....I think its the best way to study medicine...it taught me for the frst time in my life how to think deductively and to reason which is what the primary role of a physician is to diagnose........

 

[camilla2013]

where are the best hospitals in italy in terms of either prestige or known excellent training?

In my opinion north Italy, especially Lombardy region.

 

[neurodoc]

Prospective medical students who are willing to put in the time and effort to learn a different language and make sure they do the right things, can find a medical education for a lot less money than the US and the Caribbean. Medical school is also free in Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark. Of course you have to learn the language and I believe there is a stringent admissions test, but that doesn't mean it is impossible. And of course in Germany it is possible too. You will have to learn the language, take a German test, have your transcripts evaluated, but it will be much cheaper than the US and easier to gain acceptance than a US medical school.

I am sorry but whether you like it or not, American graduates with a decent grade point average can study in Germany for a lot less money than America. Whether that fits into your believe system of it being a "free lunch" is something you will have to deal with.

I think that Ronaldo is correct especially regarding the cost of European (including Italian and German) med schools) along with the fact that a US applicant with a Bachelor's degree and the usual "pre-med" US college coursework will be quite as competitive as a German or Italian "high school" applicant when applying to German or Italian med schools. Ronaldo qualifies his opinion on this by stating that the main problem faced by such US (or indeed any other non-German/Italian0applicants will be linguistic competence. If you are a foreign applicant you will have to undergo an examination (including an oral exam) when you are interviewed for admission. You may have a 4.0 GPA from, say MIT, and really know your "pre-med" stuff, but if you can't communicate your knowledge to your examiners you won't get very far in convincing your examiners to admit you...

I know that in recent years some European medical schools have established English language programs designed to cater to English speaking foreigners. Fine.

I don't know much about these programs, but I have to wonder whether or not they charge more tuition than the "regular" state-run schools.

I attended med school in Italy for a couple of years (1986-88) as a "studente straniero." In order to get admitted, I had to take an oral exam (in Italian) and compete with other foreign applicants (mostly from EU countries, including several from Germany) for about 10 foreigner slots... The exam questions were quite simple and I passed with flying colors, but I would not have done so well if I didn't have fluency in Italian.

Once in, I was able to get credit for a few of the "basic science" courses based on my US transcripts and "testing out" on these subjects via oral examinations. I suppose that I could have finished my Laurea in Medicina in 4 or so years, but I chose to spend two years in Italy and took the MSKP exam and transferred to a US med school as a 3rd year student. Not sure if this route is still available. It was definitely worth doing. My Italian tuition was less than $1800 per year and I transferred back to a US med school for two more years that (in those days...1988-90) cost about $3000 per year...

 

[ncl]

Delete please

 

[ncl]

Delete please