SUING ACPE/SCHOOL FOR NEGLIGENCE - Your thoughts

[BSalfredo]

My wife started in a new pharmacy school this fall. She was dismissed/dropped from another one after doing all her didactic work. The previous school was in a different state, and at the time was going through the accreditation process.

Facts:
The school was denied accreditation at its first application but had already admitted 75 students.

My wife contacted the school about the money refund; after a couple of days the school responded that they were keeping the class and working to be accredited at the beginning of the following year.

The dean of the school circulated an email with a backhanded message: that the school was keeping the class and those who wanted their money back would not be guaranteed a seat if the school started.

The dean also promised to tell students about the denial - contents of the accreditation denial.
Another dean sent out email to some other students advising them to apply for schools elsewhere just for protection.

In later emails, Per the dean, ACPE made it possible for the school to begin classes once they got accreditation. that meant that the school could begin mid-year after it got it's pre-candidacy.

My wife sought to know the reasons for accreditation denial; the dean did not follow up with the revelation. Students kept guessing information from update emails - they only mentioned hiring more faculty. One of the administrative assistants in a grapevine manner talked bout the lack of facilities to assist students. Whenever students asked about the progress or what was being fixed, the deans dodged the question.

The following January the school was awarded pre-candidacy and began classes. 4 months later, it admitted a second class. Facilities were lacking in the school. Students complained; a lot. The school resorted to 2 ways of dealing with complaints (that is after the dean held a meeting, passed around a pullout about California Northstate University's Pharmacy program fiasco and declared that he was NOT going that route)
1) manipulation - student pot roasts, free water flasks, inflated grades - my wife had F (2 papers and by the following day it was an A). 80% of the class flat out failed most biomedical science classes.
2) Witch-hunting and targeting those it perceived to be uncooperative - hold them back for semester.

My wife was victimized by the dean using bogus and fabricated accusations - after she found the academic dean fabricating ACPE policies. 4 days to her final year exams, out of nowhere, she was informed that she needed to appeal a grade for a class she was to take the following month - a rotation. The dean said that she had not given the school her schedule. That grade appeal was denied, as she was sitting her finals, she was dismissed and asked to appeal for re-admission. She asked to see her student record and was denied, asked to bring a lawyer or witness, was denied.

She reached out to ACPE (via a 3rd party) and Dr. Boyer responded that her claims could not be substantiated as they needed someone who was at the school. My wife then contacted Boyer herself: Boyer responded that ACPE cannot force the school to take back a student, and that the school would probably retaliate. That ACPE's mandate was to ensure the school followed it's policies; but IT DID NOT. Boyer sent a one-paragraph email stating that 'the preliminary evidence showed the school had followed procedure'. That was it. He never looked at the promises the school had made, or emails, NOTHING.

We have just found out that the school (was struggling financially) had been denied pre-candidacy due to unfinished labs, Minimal faculty, Lack of student services and health services. Well, turns out my wife had at one time or another raised concerns about the same issues.

1) The fellow who the school appointed for Academic service had no science/pharmacy background and could do nothing for students struggling with biomedical sciences.
2) The IPPE director had 12 years of technician experience as relevant education - she made many mistakes in that area.
3)most instructors had never taught anywhere.
4)The school provided a business card for a health service coordinator who NEVER existed.

My wife paid $80,000 for the two-year she was there. None of her credits are transferable because they lack depth.

The lawsuit:

ACPE claims that it is doing business with honesty and Frankness, but this SCHOOL and ACPE did not give us enough information to make an informed decision. If we had known the contents of the denial, she would have stayed in our state to go to a 4-year, cheap and established school.

My wife was unable to find any useful healthcare and came back to our home state to see a doctor.

ACPE having knowledge that schools retaliate (this happened at Sullivan few years ago. Sullivan hired a poser for a dean and when students complained, 4 were expelled) and not doing anything to protect students. This school is a for-profit school. Need for more investigation was necessary.

We plan to sue for Negligence, Misleading information, Defamation and Fraud with intent to get money from the federal government (student loans).

ACPE and the school were both negligent and misled my wife only to leave her with a huge loan.

What are your thoughts?

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[Trent Steele]

Im not a lawyer, but I hope you can stick it to this diploma mill. What school is it? could you DM me if you dont want to make public? Were all the students at this school screwed like this?

 

[cj98]

.

 

[Gnostic.Spirit]

South College in Knoxville by any chance? I'm from that area and heard terrible things when they were opening...

 

[Deja]

80% of student failed biomedical and your wife got F on 2 papers from a deploma mill school ... ummmm.... but I guess good luck on the law suit

 

[YF786]

I didn't understand the part about northstate school of pharmacy. Would you please explain that?

 

[Lexington2012]

I think it is referring to this:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/lawsuit-against-california-northstate-cp.915119/

 

[IWantTheGenetic]

I'm confused: why would your wife continue to go to such a scam school? There's like a billion pharmacy schools now. Some are even legit.

 

[genesis09]

Caveat emptor.
When there are issues about passing or failing a student, that decision is handled by the school not the accrediting agency.
You have a very high hill to climb to prove your claims. You also cannot be seen as someone with sour grapes about the school.
The risks of going to an unaccredited school are well known.
If the complaints were not written down they will be viewed as they don't exist. If wtitten down but not signed, they are a rumor.

Good luck in finding a lawyer. If you find one, it'll take several years before being heading to trial.

 

[BMBiology]

Suing them for what? For not getting their act together? What do you expect from a new school? Even some of the old ones are crappy too. You and your wife should have known the risk or knew the risk but decided to go ahead anyways. Take some responsibility. She screwed up. You guys have an uphill battle. It sucks and it is not fair. I don't think you are going to gain much by suing the school.

You know who got screwed over? The students who went to HICP. Now they have a case. They can't even sue them because the lawyer wanted money up front before taking the case. No lawyer is going to work for free for two years.

 

[steveysmith54]

I don't understand. You said that the school did have pre-candidate status when your wife's classes began, then you said the school failed to get pre-candidate status later?

It's embarrassing and sad to hear pharmacy education is at this all time low. Is this school still in existence?

 

[TheBlaah]

ACPE claims that it is doing business with honesty and Frankness, but this SCHOOL and ACPE did not give us enough information to make an informed decision. If we had known the contents of the denial, she would have stayed in our state to go to a 4-year, cheap and established school.

I don't really understand this statement. If this was an option, why didn't she do this in the first place rather than take a risk with a new, unknown, and out of state school?

 

[BSalfredo]

I am sorry I was not clear; let me try to clarify:

1. The school admitted students and were very upbeat about accreditation - the deans claimed to have experience doing it - One had come from Touro, or somewhere in Lousiana. We both visited the school at interviews and compared with the other 4 we had considered: It was marketed as having focus on the future of pharmacy - having students buy iPads (mandatory) in addition to laptops. Their Laboratories were supposed to e the best in the area. They had the wirings and big screens. None of those things were functional when classes began. The hoods were not functional. None of the research labs were functional. Should we have asked at interviews if they were functioning?

2. The promise at the interview was that the school would be accelerated 3-semesters. My wife previously held a job in a specialty pharmacy - she was a chemist, and one of the lead pharmacists was retiring. He was to wait out until my wife finished. The school turned out to be quarters. Basically all the things said at the interviews were not true.

3. It would be sour grapes if my wife was genuinely failed. She did not. Nothing they did was in their handbooks. She has been accepted elsewhere very easily.

-A majority of the other students were from the area or known to faculty. I'd say 75%. Children of friends, or their parents had a say in the school. Others were spouses to employees of the school.

 

[BenJammin]

Why did your wife accept admission to a university program that isn't accredited? Is "personal responsibility" missing from her vocabulary?

 

[BMBiology]

It was marketed as having focus on the future of pharmacy - having students buy iPads (mandatory) in addition to laptops. Their Laboratories were supposed to e the best in the area. They had the wirings and big screens. None of those things were functional when classes began. The hoods were not functional. None of the research labs were functional. Should we have asked at interviews if they were functioning?.

I love how pharmacy schools are marketing themselves like a hot new tech start up. What does iPads have to do with it?

You think you can rent out a strip mall, buy some chairs and tables and then become an innovative center? There are regulations that dictate what a pharmacist can and can't do.

They fooled you and your wife but you guys should have known the risk. You guys took a gamble and this is the result.

 

[PharMed2016]

I'm sorry you and your wife had to learn the hard way but that is why you go to more established programs with classes that have graduated. I would not chance my education to some place that only has pre-accreditation.

 

[BenJammin]

I am sorry I was not clear; let me try to clarify:

1. The school admitted students and were very upbeat about accreditation - the deans claimed to have experience doing it - One had come from Touro, or somewhere in Lousiana. We both visited the school at interviews and compared with the other 4 we had considered: It was marketed as having focus on the future of pharmacy - having students buy iPads (mandatory) in addition to laptops. Their Laboratories were supposed to e the best in the area. They had the wirings and big screens. None of those things were functional when classes began. The hoods were not functional. None of the research labs were functional. Should we have asked at interviews if they were functioning?

2. The promise at the interview was that the school would be accelerated 3-semesters. My wife previously held a job in a specialty pharmacy - she was a chemist, and one of the lead pharmacists was retiring. He was to wait out until my wife finished. The school turned out to be quarters. Basically all the things said at the interviews were not true.

I see the sympathy for your lack of research slowly....but surely....shrinking.

 

[fewaopi]

It's hard for me to have sympathy for you two. A cursory google search on pharmacy schools would've led you to issues like the tightening job market and predatory schools. It wouldn't take much to research and learn to not go to these types of schools.

Schools, deans being dishonest is wrong and should be punished. But there's responsibility on consumers/buyers to not be scammed. You have to investigate and learn, not just swallow everything that's given/shown to you and not question it.

It seems like you do have a case though (I'd certainly be angry too) but it's not gonna be easy. Maybe take it to press? I don't know. At the very least, this should be fair warning to students thinking about or currently in pharmacy school. It sounds like the school is also screwing its own people since you say a lot of the students are known to faculty, have a say in the school, etc. You mentioned a lot of students complaining. If it's just your wife fighting this alone, it'd probably be dismissed and it's more an issue your wife has. If the whole class complained and united, then I'd think it's the school. Better to get allies w/you on this than fight alone.

 

[BSalfredo]

Thanks yo'll for your opinions.

My wife and I think it wrong to let it go without an objection. Other students will be hard to trace; but we do have written communications. One student who decided to quit ($25,000 into the program) to go to engineering is joining.

At one time Pharmacists were the most trusted healthcare workers....or so I am told. All these people were pharmacists who have enjoyed that respect and privilege over time. While I agree that I should have done some work, please be reminded that we are not educators/pharmacists/deans or professors.

We are not deluded into thinking that there will be no fight-back. If only for a warning, so be it.

 

[BMBiology]

While I agree that I should have done some work, please be reminded that we are not educators/pharmacists/deans or professors.

We are not deluded into thinking that there will be no fight-back. If only for a warning, so be it.

I don't want to kick you while you are down but there is just an excuse. It is so easy nowadays to do some research.

The fact is pharmacy schools are accepting more and more subpar students, low information students. This is the result. Many will not pass their classes.

 

[BSalfredo]

@BMBiology
Yes, we did participate by trusting that ACPE was doing what they proclaim to be doing, and that the school was being honest.
Why would you think that a group of old men (Dean F is over 60, Dean G is over 50, Dr. T is going 70, Dr.B looks like 90) are lying? Is it unfashionable to be scrupulous? The school is constantly hiring as new PharmD's show up and leave in 1 year or less.

Again, you are right, to a certain extent. There is pop-research that is rattled off by everybody, then there is the evidence based research. Financial information, ACPE denials, and inner workings of organizations can not be left hanging out to be googled by everyone. It is that lack of 'Frankness' that we seek to uncover.

Do not worry about kicking me, you will most likely hurt your foot.

 

[Carboxide]

@BMBiology
Yes, we did participate by trusting that ACPE was doing what they proclaim to be doing, and that the school was being honest.
Why would you think that a group of old men (Dean F is over 60, Dean G is over 50, Dr. T is going 70, Dr.B looks like 90) are lying? Is it unfashionable to be scrupulous? The school is constantly hiring as new PharmD's show up and leave in 1 year or less.

Again, you are right, to a certain extent. There is pop-research that is rattled off by everybody, then there is the evidence based research. Financial information, ACPE denials, and inner workings of organizations can not be left hanging out to be googled by everyone. It is that lack of 'Frankness' that we seek to uncover.

Do not worry about kicking me, you will most likely hurt your foot.

Are you kidding me?

ACPE flat out says that pre-candidacy status DOES NOT guarantee that you will receive a degree. In recent history HICP got pre-candidate status and then lost everything. When a school has to RE-APPLY for pre-candidate status, you should run as far and fast as you can - and that should have been flat out obvious.

And what does a group being old men have to do with anything? Old men are no less likely to trick people than any other group, and frankly, based on politicians are possibly more likely.

I don't think you know what scrupulous means, because if you did, you would have never ended up in this situation.

You are right that the inner workings of the school can be easily hidden from your eyes. However, this school from your own account had many very obvious red flags that you flat out ignored and blew right through. You need to accept that you and your wife screwed up bad. Next time, try actually being scrupulous.

 

[radio frequency]

Frankly, I think your entire argument is incoherent. I don't think you two stand a chance. Sorry.

 

[Amicable Angora]

Just tell us the school so people can avoid it in the future!

 

[BidingMyTime]

I don't know that you would have much of a lawsuit. Going to an unaccredited school is taking a huge risk, of course the school will paint it as all rainbows and butterflies, but "unaccredited" isn't an obscure legal term. For many people, maybe even most people, they win the risk and end up getting their degree, but there are plenty of horror stories from students who were lost big time playing the unaccredited school game. You and your wife (since her debt is your debt) decided to take the risk, I'm guessing because she didn't get accepted into a real (ie accredited) pharmacy school (which should have been a big red flag to you. The fact that you downplayed the risk (just like almost everyone who takes a risk does--every chain smoker thinks they will be the exception to live to $100, everyone gambling away their rent money thinks they are going to actually win, etc.), isn't ACPE's fault. Unaccredited means that there is a real chance that if you graduate, your degree will be worthless. Unaccredited means, the school may not be following accepted protocols for higher level education. Unaccredited means, the school may have completely unqualified and socially inept personnel. Most unaccredited schools are of good quality and do become accredited, but there are some that don't.

Now, if your wife was really harrassed and retaliated against....maybe she would have a case, but that would be hard to prove, especially since she has since been accepted into a real pharmacy school.

 

[BSalfredo]

I appreciate your opinions.

We have been consulting a lawyer and he does not think we are 'incoherent'. Besides, there are several case laws out there and using ACPEs own policies; we have decided give it a shot.

Doing nothing about it is not an option.

Let us see how these goes. Wish us luck.


For those who want to know the name of the school...just avoid for-profits - the story line seems to be the same. Lie, misrepresent, deny...then enrol students in RX-PREP (Mandatorily) to pass NAPLEX. Perhaps pharmacy should return to being an apprenticeship. Why spend so much money, when one could easily be a technician for a few years, pay $1000 RX-PREP, pass NAPLEX and get licensed? just wondering.

 

[YF786]

Goodluck! I wouldn't give up on it too. You are taking the right decision. If we don't do anything about it then these schools will continue to take advantage of students. I know it's our responsibility to do the research but isn't it their responsibility to be doing the right thing.

 

[BSalfredo]

Goodluck! I wouldn't give up on it too. You are taking the right decision. If we don't do anything about it then these schools will continue to take advantage of students. I know it's our responsibility to do the research but isn't it their responsibility to be doing the right thing.

Thankyou for your support. I realize we might be buried in legal paperwork…but it will go on record that someone said something about it. It does not sound right leaving it as is.

I will return to give updates on how I was laughed at all th eway out of court. Somehow, I know that is not the direction our country should be taking or healthcare. Yes, we are a capitalist economy, but it is about appreciating individual excellence…not looting and conning. Good pharmacists out there…keep doing your best. You may come last, but you will live more fullfilled.

 

[BMBiology]

Thankyou for your support. I realize we might be buried in legal paperwork…but it will go on record that someone said something about it. It does not sound right leaving it as is.

I will return to give updates on how I was laughed at all th eway out of court. Somehow, I know that is not the direction our country should be taking or healthcare. Yes, we are a capitalist economy, but it is about appreciating individual excellence…not looting and conning. Good pharmacists out there…keep doing your best. You may come last, but you will live more fullfilled.

How much are you planning to spend on legal cost?

 

[steveysmith54]

Thankyou for your support. I realize we might be buried in legal paperwork…but it will go on record that someone said something about it. It does not sound right leaving it as is.

I will return to give updates on how I was laughed at all th eway out of court. Somehow, I know that is not the direction our country should be taking or healthcare. Yes, we are a capitalist economy, but it is about appreciating individual excellence…not looting and conning. Good pharmacists out there…keep doing your best. You may come last, but you will live more fullfilled.

Hi. I just want to thank you for sharing your story and taking some of the "I told you so" and other forms of criticism. I want to start out by saying I empathize with you and your wife and sorry about lost time and money, and stress. I hope that you realize by sharing your story you have helped future generations of students. I applaud your efforts.

I wish you and your wife the best.

I heard whispers about problems at CNCP and Sullivan, but nothing concrete. Wish more of these things would come so that ACPE can be seen for what they are.

 

[fewaopi]

We know BSalfredo's wife made a poor decision. But we're being a bit harsh here I think.

It sounds like you have a case and the issues raised does make one question the ethics of this school and possibly similar schools. Being taken advantaged of doesn't mean the predator is allowed to get off scot free. I think most would say the wise thing to do is keep your head down, obey, don't question, then get your degree and move on. Most people do but this issue doesn't seem like a small thing you can just move on. They've invested significant amounts of $$, time, and effort and want to recuperate that based off what we're told, seems to be retaliation and an act of silencing/punishment by the school after the wife discovered wrongdoing. If there are several plaintiffs and it sounds like there are (more the merrier) then there's probably a real issue that goes far and beyond other pharmacy school practices. It wasn't just the wife being unscrupulous here, it seems others were too. And if many are deceived, then it probably means something's going here. Maybe she was punished as a warning to other students, someone to make an example of...idk. It also appears that deliberate actions by the school resulted in years of life, $$ lost, based on false, misleading information. And maybe they don't follow ACPE standards or ACPE is at fault for not enforcing or not employing more rigorous criteria for school accreditation to prevent schools from exploiting students. Regardless, there seems to be a lot of dirt surrounding the education of a field that is supposed to have high standards. I mean why else do people complain on these boards?

Of course there's caution in taking any legal advice from the Internet. And caution in believing in every post like the OP's on the Internet. We as the audience don't know all details, don't know everything going on, we can't fill in all the gaps or verify the OP's story. The wife was accepted to other schools but chose this one because of the way it was advertised. What they found was something else. And it wasn't just simple advertising but direct manipulation, acts intended to deceive, lie, and silence those that tried to expose wrongdoing. They also don't seem to be the only ones complaining. Again I can only go off what I'm told, maybe we're not given the whole story.

And we shouldn't be given a whole story. I'm not sure how wise it is to divulge all the details of a pending lawsuit on the Internet is. There aren't too many lawsuits against schools/ACPE I'd think so identifying (you'd be surprised) the OP could compromise your case. You have to use your judgment and just cause some agree with you doesn't mean you'll win.

Personally I'd like to see a big media takedown (VICE [not a huge fan of] or Frontline, documentary, news) of some type on these types of schools, pharmacy, maybe others. Kids/parents considering pharmacy need to be aware of these issues and change is definitely needed in the pharmacy school business. But that doesn't mean I'm right or you'll win. Usually it's who has more money to get people to better argue an interpretation of law that falls in their favor. I don't think it stops people making stupid decisions, cause even after HICP, people still chose OP's schools but perhaps changes are needed at ACPE.

 

[Gombrich12]

The biggest change needed is a global cap on GradPLUS loans at around $150,000. If it wasn't so profitable to open a pharmacy school we wouldn't be having these problems. The government giving graduate students an unlimited amount of money is going to end soon enough, the only question I have is will private lenders step in to fill the gap?

 

[BidingMyTime]

The biggest change needed is a global cap on GradPLUS loans at around $150,000. If it wasn't so profitable to open a pharmacy school we wouldn't be having these problems. The government giving graduate students an unlimited amount of money is going to end soon enough, the only question I have is will private lenders step in to fill the gap?

Sure private lenders will step in, but unlike the government, they will have strict qualifications. They will only loan money when 1) good students who who have the background to show that they will most likely be able to handle & graduate from pharmacy school 2) the good student is going to reputable school with a long record of excellence and results 3) market conditions show a high probability that the graduate will be employed at a salary at which they will be able to pay back their loan.

Then again, I could be looking at this with rose-colored glasses. Maybe it will be like the housing market loans, and banks will give out money to everyone, and then just ask the government to bail them out.

 

[BidingMyTime]

The biggest change needed is a global cap on GradPLUS loans at around $150,000. If it wasn't so profitable to open a pharmacy school we wouldn't be having these problems. The government giving graduate students an unlimited amount of money is going to end soon enough, the only question I have is will private lenders step in to fill the gap?

Sure private lenders will step in, but unlike the government, they will have strict qualifications. They will only loan money when 1) good students who who have the background to show that they will most likely be able to handle & graduate from pharmacy school 2) the good student is going to reputable school with a long record of excellence and results 3) market conditions show a high probability that the graduate will be employed at a salary at which they will be able to pay back their loan.

Then again, I could be looking at this with rose-colored glasses. Maybe it will be like the housing market loans, and banks will give out money to everyone, and then just ask the government to bail them out.

 

[Humble Sloth]

My wife started in a new pharmacy school this fall. She was dismissed/dropped from another one after doing all her didactic work. The previous school was in a different state, and at the time was going through the accreditation process.

Facts:
The school was denied accreditation at its first application but had already admitted 75 students.

My wife contacted the school about the money refund; after a couple of days the school responded that they were keeping the class and working to be accredited at the beginning of the following year.

The dean of the school circulated an email with a backhanded message: that the school was keeping the class and those who wanted their money back would not be guaranteed a seat if the school started.

The dean also promised to tell students about the denial - contents of the accreditation denial.
Another dean sent out email to some other students advising them to apply for schools elsewhere just for protection.

In later emails, Per the dean, ACPE made it possible for the school to begin classes once they got accreditation. that meant that the school could begin mid-year after it got it's pre-candidacy.

My wife sought to know the reasons for accreditation denial; the dean did not follow up with the revelation. Students kept guessing information from update emails - they only mentioned hiring more faculty. One of the administrative assistants in a grapevine manner talked bout the lack of facilities to assist students. Whenever students asked about the progress or what was being fixed, the deans dodged the question.

The following January the school was awarded pre-candidacy and began classes. 4 months later, it admitted a second class. Facilities were lacking in the school. Students complained; a lot. The school resorted to 2 ways of dealing with complaints (that is after the dean held a meeting, passed around a pullout about California Northstate University's Pharmacy program fiasco and declared that he was NOT going that route)
1) manipulation - student pot roasts, free water flasks, inflated grades - my wife had F (2 papers and by the following day it was an A). 80% of the class flat out failed most biomedical science classes.
2) Witch-hunting and targeting those it perceived to be uncooperative - hold them back for semester.

My wife was victimized by the dean using bogus and fabricated accusations - after she found the academic dean fabricating ACPE policies. 4 days to her final year exams, out of nowhere, she was informed that she needed to appeal a grade for a class she was to take the following month - a rotation. The dean said that she had not given the school her schedule. That grade appeal was denied, as she was sitting her finals, she was dismissed and asked to appeal for re-admission. She asked to see her student record and was denied, asked to bring a lawyer or witness, was denied.

She reached out to ACPE (via a 3rd party) and Dr. Boyer responded that her claims could not be substantiated as they needed someone who was at the school. My wife then contacted Boyer herself: Boyer responded that ACPE cannot force the school to take back a student, and that the school would probably retaliate. That ACPE's mandate was to ensure the school followed it's policies; but IT DID NOT. Boyer sent a one-paragraph email stating that 'the preliminary evidence showed the school had followed procedure'. That was it. He never looked at the promises the school had made, or emails, NOTHING.

We have just found out that the school (was struggling financially) had been denied pre-candidacy due to unfinished labs, Minimal faculty, Lack of student services and health services. Well, turns out my wife had at one time or another raised concerns about the same issues.

1) The fellow who the school appointed for Academic service had no science/pharmacy background and could do nothing for students struggling with biomedical sciences.
2) The IPPE director had 12 years of technician experience as relevant education - she made many mistakes in that area.
3)most instructors had never taught anywhere.
4)The school provided a business card for a health service coordinator who NEVER existed.

My wife paid $80,000 for the two-year she was there. None of her credits are transferable because they lack depth.

The lawsuit:

ACPE claims that it is doing business with honesty and Frankness, but this SCHOOL and ACPE did not give us enough information to make an informed decision. If we had known the contents of the denial, she would have stayed in our state to go to a 4-year, cheap and established school.

My wife was unable to find any useful healthcare and came back to our home state to see a doctor.

ACPE having knowledge that schools retaliate (this happened at Sullivan few years ago. Sullivan hired a poser for a dean and when students complained, 4 were expelled) and not doing anything to protect students. This school is a for-profit school. Need for more investigation was necessary.

We plan to sue for Negligence, Misleading information, Defamation and Fraud with intent to get money from the federal government (student loans).

ACPE and the school were both negligent and misled my wife only to leave her with a huge loan.

What are your thoughts?

Sounds like your wife was a pain in the butt to an entity and now that entity is paying her back in kind. You can't be a jerk and not expect push back.

 

[Rukn]

Lol get your PharmD guys!

 

[Frequent Pharmer]

Hi, I am faculty at a pharmacy school (have been for 15 years). I read this with sympathy and maybe a way to help.
The Dean seems to be the problem. If you don't mind me saying so, suing the ACPE is not going to get anyone anywhere; the fault is local.
Deans often (as ours does) think they are beyond reproach or correction. This is FALSE. They serve at the pleasure of someone above them.
Find out who that is.
Next, if the Dean has a research program, he likely was a successful chairman before being Dean, so he may be harder to move. If he is not a successful researcher, he is less important, more easy to take down. This sounds harsh, but you have a veteran full professor weighing in who loves pharmacy students as if they were her/his own children. I am pharmacy student PROTECTIVE and PROACTIVE. I am administration-negative when they misbehave. Not when they behave.
So, FIND out this person's direct report. It may be a provost, a vice pres of research, or the univ pres. PUT YOUR IDEAS in cogent, dispassionate writing.
Be factual. Not emotional.
Tell it like it is/was.
Demand the lying Dean's resignation (it can be done). Prove with emails or letters or memos he misrepresented the school. BE FACTUAL.

If he lied, they will nail him. If he made the university look bad through the college, the university will can him.
If this does not work, go to a newspaper and report it as a letter to the editor, like a complaint about a bad business. They will verify your name and that you sent it and print it. This may be sufficiently bad press to get recourse.

I sympathize with your beloved wife who took a chance and paid dearly.

You seem to care a lot about this outcome, and know that you may still have a way to see this to your satisfaction. NOTHING (NOTHING!) in academia moves fast (I see your note was 2015). So, keep at it. Apply pressure. Show evidence.
We have a Dean who solicited a P3 student for sex in exchange for an excused absence on a test. YES, these people can be inappropriate, dishonest, and terrible for the job. Usually hard core basic scientists who have risen through the ranks with time and energy don't do these things, but a newbie might. That may play to your advantage...that he didn't "EARN" this job and can have it taken away. Remember, this A(*&HOLE serves at the pleasure of some other person...and you have rights!!!

Praying for you and yours.

-

 

[297point1]

Hi, I am faculty at a pharmacy school (have been for 15 years). I read this with sympathy and maybe a way to help.
The Dean seems to be the problem. If you don't mind me saying so, suing the ACPE is not going to get anyone anywhere; the fault is local.
Deans often (as ours does) think they are beyond reproach or correction. This is FALSE. They serve at the pleasure of someone above them.
Find out who that is.
Next, if the Dean has a research program, he likely was a successful chairman before being Dean, so he may be harder to move. If he is not a successful researcher, he is less important, more easy to take down. This sounds harsh, but you have a veteran full professor weighing in who loves pharmacy students as if they were her/his own children. I am pharmacy student PROTECTIVE and PROACTIVE. I am administration-negative when they misbehave. Not when they behave.
So, FIND out this person's direct report. It may be a provost, a vice pres of research, or the univ pres. PUT YOUR IDEAS in cogent, dispassionate writing.
Be factual. Not emotional.
Tell it like it is/was.
Demand the lying Dean's resignation (it can be done). Prove with emails or letters or memos he misrepresented the school. BE FACTUAL.

If he lied, they will nail him. If he made the university look bad through the college, the university will can him.
If this does not work, go to a newspaper and report it as a letter to the editor, like a complaint about a bad business. They will verify your name and that you sent it and print it. This may be sufficiently bad press to get recourse.

I sympathize with your beloved wife who took a chance and paid dearly.

You seem to care a lot about this outcome, and know that you may still have a way to see this to your satisfaction. NOTHING (NOTHING!) in academia moves fast (I see your note was 2015). So, keep at it. Apply pressure. Show evidence.
We have a Dean who solicited a P3 student for sex in exchange for an excused absence on a test. YES, these people can be inappropriate, dishonest, and terrible for the job. Usually hard core basic scientists who have risen through the ranks with time and energy don't do these things, but a newbie might. That may play to your advantage...that he didn't "EARN" this job and can have it taken away. Remember, this A(*&HOLE serves at the pleasure of some other person...and you have rights!!!

Praying for you and yours.

-

Welcome to SDN, my faculty friend.

In the future, you may wish to avoid:
- directly criticizing your boss
- sharing dirty laundry about the goings on at your program
- leaving personal identifiers that make it easier to zero in on your program's identity and your identity.

Just my two cents...I was new here once too.

 

[owlegrad]

Welcome to SDN, my faculty friend.

In the future, you may wish to avoid:
- directly criticizing your boss
- sharing dirty laundry about the goings on at your program
- leaving personal identifiers that make it easier to zero in on your program's identity and your identity.

Just my two cents...I was new here once too.

This post is so helpful I am sending you a code for a $10 amazon gift card. Enjoy!

 

[BSalfredo]

Hi, I am faculty at a pharmacy school (have been for 15 years). I read this with sympathy and maybe a way to help.
The Dean seems to be the problem. If you don't mind me saying so, suing the ACPE is not going to get anyone anywhere; the fault is local.
Deans often (as ours does) think they are beyond reproach or correction. This is FALSE. They serve at the pleasure of someone above them.
Find out who that is.
Next, if the Dean has a research program, he likely was a successful chairman before being Dean, so he may be harder to move. If he is not a successful researcher, he is less important, more easy to take down. This sounds harsh, but you have a veteran full professor weighing in who loves pharmacy students as if they were her/his own children. I am pharmacy student PROTECTIVE and PROACTIVE. I am administration-negative when they misbehave. Not when they behave.
So, FIND out this person's direct report. It may be a provost, a vice pres of research, or the univ pres. PUT YOUR IDEAS in cogent, dispassionate writing.
Be factual. Not emotional.
Tell it like it is/was.
Demand the lying Dean's resignation (it can be done). Prove with emails or letters or memos he misrepresented the school. BE FACTUAL.

If he lied, they will nail him. If he made the university look bad through the college, the university will can him.
If this does not work, go to a newspaper and report it as a letter to the editor, like a complaint about a bad business. They will verify your name and that you sent it and print it. This may be sufficiently bad press to get recourse.

I sympathize with your beloved wife who took a chance and paid dearly.

You seem to care a lot about this outcome, and know that you may still have a way to see this to your satisfaction. NOTHING (NOTHING!) in academia moves fast (I see your note was 2015). So, keep at it. Apply pressure. Show evidence.
We have a Dean who solicited a P3 student for sex in exchange for an excused absence on a test. YES, these people can be inappropriate, dishonest, and terrible for the job. Usually hard core basic scientists who have risen through the ranks with time and energy don't do these things, but a newbie might. That may play to your advantage...that he didn't "EARN" this job and can have it taken away. Remember, this A(*&HOLE serves at the pleasure of some other person...and you have rights!!!

Praying for you and yours.

-

Thank you very much for your support. The Dean was a founding Dean, he has no current research whatsoever, he claimed having taught pharmacy school for over 25 years. But he is a lawyer also. After persistent writing to ACPE and complaining, if you currently visit their website, they are beginning to allow students to attach evidence of complains. That form did not exist when we first contacted ACPE. We even contacted the Director of Higher Education accreditation to Complain about ACPE ineptness.
We are still passionate about this. Because ACPE says it cannot stop pharmacy schools from popping up, we are considering forming an organization to protect students from such kind of businesses (or pharmacy schools). The good schools, profs, and pharmacists out there, please keep the dignity of the profession.

 

[VeeSee]

A lot of what you learn in pharmacy school is useless in the real world in the actual practice of pharmacy

If you can master the RxPrep book you are competent enough I would say

 

[owlegrad]

A lot of what you learn in pharmacy school is useless in the real world in the actual practice of pharmacy

If you can master the RxPrep book you are competent enough I would say

None-since, I use the henderson hasselbalch equation daily, and where would I be without knowing the structure of penicillin?!

 

[VeeSee]

None-since, I use the henderson hasselbalch equation daily, and where would I be without knowing the structure of penicillin?!

They are better off teaching metrics in school

 

[VeeSee]

Hi, I am faculty at a pharmacy school (have been for 15 years). I read this with sympathy and maybe a way to help.
The Dean seems to be the problem. If you don't mind me saying so, suing the ACPE is not going to get anyone anywhere; the fault is local.
Deans often (as ours does) think they are beyond reproach or correction. This is FALSE. They serve at the pleasure of someone above them.
Find out who that is.
Next, if the Dean has a research program, he likely was a successful chairman before being Dean, so he may be harder to move. If he is not a successful researcher, he is less important, more easy to take down. This sounds harsh, but you have a veteran full professor weighing in who loves pharmacy students as if they were her/his own children. I am pharmacy student PROTECTIVE and PROACTIVE. I am administration-negative when they misbehave. Not when they behave.
So, FIND out this person's direct report. It may be a provost, a vice pres of research, or the univ pres. PUT YOUR IDEAS in cogent, dispassionate writing.
Be factual. Not emotional.
Tell it like it is/was.
Demand the lying Dean's resignation (it can be done). Prove with emails or letters or memos he misrepresented the school. BE FACTUAL.

If he lied, they will nail him. If he made the university look bad through the college, the university will can him.
If this does not work, go to a newspaper and report it as a letter to the editor, like a complaint about a bad business. They will verify your name and that you sent it and print it. This may be sufficiently bad press to get recourse.

I sympathize with your beloved wife who took a chance and paid dearly.

You seem to care a lot about this outcome, and know that you may still have a way to see this to your satisfaction. NOTHING (NOTHING!) in academia moves fast (I see your note was 2015). So, keep at it. Apply pressure. Show evidence.
We have a Dean who solicited a P3 student for sex in exchange for an excused absence on a test. YES, these people can be inappropriate, dishonest, and terrible for the job. Usually hard core basic scientists who have risen through the ranks with time and energy don't do these things, but a newbie might. That may play to your advantage...that he didn't "EARN" this job and can have it taken away. Remember, this A(*&HOLE serves at the pleasure of some other person...and you have rights!!!

Praying for you and yours.

-

lol these deans are a joke

profession is a joke

don'tknow if it was like this before but it is now

 

[Doc-Rx]

Hi, I am faculty at a pharmacy school (have been for 15 years). I read this with sympathy and maybe a way to help.
The Dean seems to be the problem. If you don't mind me saying so, suing the ACPE is not going to get anyone anywhere; the fault is local.
Deans often (as ours does) think they are beyond reproach or correction. This is FALSE. They serve at the pleasure of someone above them.
Find out who that is.
Next, if the Dean has a research program, he likely was a successful chairman before being Dean, so he may be harder to move. If he is not a successful researcher, he is less important, more easy to take down. This sounds harsh, but you have a veteran full professor weighing in who loves pharmacy students as if they were her/his own children. I am pharmacy student PROTECTIVE and PROACTIVE. I am administration-negative when they misbehave. Not when they behave.
So, FIND out this person's direct report. It may be a provost, a vice pres of research, or the univ pres. PUT YOUR IDEAS in cogent, dispassionate writing.
Be factual. Not emotional.
Tell it like it is/was.
Demand the lying Dean's resignation (it can be done). Prove with emails or letters or memos he misrepresented the school. BE FACTUAL.

If he lied, they will nail him. If he made the university look bad through the college, the university will can him.
If this does not work, go to a newspaper and report it as a letter to the editor, like a complaint about a bad business. They will verify your name and that you sent it and print it. This may be sufficiently bad press to get recourse.

I sympathize with your beloved wife who took a chance and paid dearly.

You seem to care a lot about this outcome, and know that you may still have a way to see this to your satisfaction. NOTHING (NOTHING!) in academia moves fast (I see your note was 2015). So, keep at it. Apply pressure. Show evidence.
We have a Dean who solicited a P3 student for sex in exchange for an excused absence on a test. YES, these people can be inappropriate, dishonest, and terrible for the job. Usually hard core basic scientists who have risen through the ranks with time and energy don't do these things, but a newbie might. That may play to your advantage...that he didn't "EARN" this job and can have it taken away. Remember, this A(*&HOLE serves at the pleasure of some other person...and you have rights!!!

Praying for you and yours.

-

100% agree. @FrequentFarmer has totally laid these steps out for you. Follow them, be diligent with information gathering, and you will eventually not walk away empty handed.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[tennismaniac]

It's hard for me to have sympathy for you two. A cursory google search on pharmacy schools would've led you to issues like the tightening job market and predatory schools. It wouldn't take much to research and learn to not go to these types of schools.

Schools, deans being dishonest is wrong and should be punished. But there's responsibility on consumers/buyers to not be scammed. You have to investigate and learn, not just swallow everything that's given/shown to you and not question it.

It seems like you do have a case though (I'd certainly be angry too) but it's not gonna be easy. Maybe take it to press? I don't know. At the very least, this should be fair warning to students thinking about or currently in pharmacy school. It sounds like the school is also screwing its own people since you say a lot of the students are known to faculty, have a say in the school, etc. You mentioned a lot of students complaining. If it's just your wife fighting this alone, it'd probably be dismissed and it's more an issue your wife has. If the whole class complained and united, then I'd think it's the school. Better to get allies w/you on this than fight alone.

I had a similar experience at High Point University-located in High Point, NC. Where I literally lost $60k after the school committed education malpractice.

 

[MedClause]

I had a similar experience at High Point University-located in High Point, NC. Where I literally lost $60k after the school committed education malpractice.

I give my sympathies for your hardship. Do you care to share your experience?

 

[MedClause]

My wife started in a new pharmacy school this fall. She was dismissed/dropped from another one after doing all her didactic work. The previous school was in a different state, and at the time was going through the accreditation process.

Facts:
The school was denied accreditation at its first application but had already admitted 75 students.

My wife contacted the school about the money refund; after a couple of days the school responded that they were keeping the class and working to be accredited at the beginning of the following year.

The dean of the school circulated an email with a backhanded message: that the school was keeping the class and those who wanted their money back would not be guaranteed a seat if the school started.

The dean also promised to tell students about the denial - contents of the accreditation denial.
Another dean sent out email to some other students advising them to apply for schools elsewhere just for protection.

In later emails, Per the dean, ACPE made it possible for the school to begin classes once they got accreditation. that meant that the school could begin mid-year after it got it's pre-candidacy.

My wife sought to know the reasons for accreditation denial; the dean did not follow up with the revelation. Students kept guessing information from update emails - they only mentioned hiring more faculty. One of the administrative assistants in a grapevine manner talked bout the lack of facilities to assist students. Whenever students asked about the progress or what was being fixed, the deans dodged the question.

The following January the school was awarded pre-candidacy and began classes. 4 months later, it admitted a second class. Facilities were lacking in the school. Students complained; a lot. The school resorted to 2 ways of dealing with complaints (that is after the dean held a meeting, passed around a pullout about California Northstate University's Pharmacy program fiasco and declared that he was NOT going that route)
1) manipulation - student pot roasts, free water flasks, inflated grades - my wife had F (2 papers and by the following day it was an A). 80% of the class flat out failed most biomedical science classes.
2) Witch-hunting and targeting those it perceived to be uncooperative - hold them back for semester.

My wife was victimized by the dean using bogus and fabricated accusations - after she found the academic dean fabricating ACPE policies. 4 days to her final year exams, out of nowhere, she was informed that she needed to appeal a grade for a class she was to take the following month - a rotation. The dean said that she had not given the school her schedule. That grade appeal was denied, as she was sitting her finals, she was dismissed and asked to appeal for re-admission. She asked to see her student record and was denied, asked to bring a lawyer or witness, was denied.

She reached out to ACPE (via a 3rd party) and Dr. Boyer responded that her claims could not be substantiated as they needed someone who was at the school. My wife then contacted Boyer herself: Boyer responded that ACPE cannot force the school to take back a student, and that the school would probably retaliate. That ACPE's mandate was to ensure the school followed it's policies; but IT DID NOT. Boyer sent a one-paragraph email stating that 'the preliminary evidence showed the school had followed procedure'. That was it. He never looked at the promises the school had made, or emails, NOTHING.

We have just found out that the school (was struggling financially) had been denied pre-candidacy due to unfinished labs, Minimal faculty, Lack of student services and health services. Well, turns out my wife had at one time or another raised concerns about the same issues.

1) The fellow who the school appointed for Academic service had no science/pharmacy background and could do nothing for students struggling with biomedical sciences.
2) The IPPE director had 12 years of technician experience as relevant education - she made many mistakes in that area.
3)most instructors had never taught anywhere.
4)The school provided a business card for a health service coordinator who NEVER existed.

My wife paid $80,000 for the two-year she was there. None of her credits are transferable because they lack depth.

The lawsuit:

ACPE claims that it is doing business with honesty and Frankness, but this SCHOOL and ACPE did not give us enough information to make an informed decision. If we had known the contents of the denial, she would have stayed in our state to go to a 4-year, cheap and established school.

My wife was unable to find any useful healthcare and came back to our home state to see a doctor.

ACPE having knowledge that schools retaliate (this happened at Sullivan few years ago. Sullivan hired a poser for a dean and when students complained, 4 were expelled) and not doing anything to protect students. This school is a for-profit school. Need for more investigation was necessary.

We plan to sue for Negligence, Misleading information, Defamation and Fraud with intent to get money from the federal government (student loans).

ACPE and the school were both negligent and misled my wife only to leave her with a huge loan.

What are your thoughts?

If your wife has evidence that the school misled her — school making claims about resources they offered to students but were non-existent; claims that students will be provided education and training, but they were never received; misleading students on job opportunities upon graduating, etc. Then I would apply for Borrow Defense Loan Forgiveness through the U.S. Department of Education

 

[tennismaniac]

I appreciate your opinions.

We have been consulting a lawyer and he does not think we are 'incoherent'. Besides, there are several case laws out there and using ACPEs own policies; we have decided give it a shot.

Doing nothing about it is not an option.

Let us see how these goes. Wish us luck.


For those who want to know the name of the school...just avoid for-profits - the story line seems to be the same. Lie, misrepresent, deny...then enrol students in RX-PREP (Mandatorily) to pass NAPLEX. Perhaps pharmacy should return to being an apprenticeship. Why spend so much money, when one could easily be a technician for a few years, pay $1000 RX-PREP, pass NAPLEX and get licensed? just wondering.

I give my sympathies for your hardship. Do you care to share your experience?

I give my sympathies for your hardship. Do you care to share your experience?

Yes! Thank you for your sympathy. Actually I posted it in the forum: Failed APPE rotation & also I gave a brief overview in the High Point University PharmD Review forum. Basically, I was supposed to be at the rotation for 4 weeks on May of last year at Harris Teeter pharmacy in Burlington, NC, and my preceptor was not even there the first day & most of the second day. There was no teaching, no academic instruction, etc. For most of the time, I worked with the other pharmacist and he told **** and lies about me to the IPPE coordinator-saying crap like, "she did not participate." "Or she didn't seem interested." Which was a LIE since I was contributing by filling vials, answering phone calls, organizing shelves, etc. Granted I had just started so I was still getting used to the flow of things so I didn't know the computer system well & I was told for legal reasons I was not allowed to use the register. At around 5 pm on the second day, the preceptor walks, pulls me aside and says, "oh the other pharmacist said you're not contributing at all"-which was BULLS**T. I worked with her for 2 hours and apparently she called the school's IPPE coordinator and told him, "I cannot pass this student," and when I walked in on my 3rd day the preceptor told me to work on my OTC list project. Then I saw the IPPE coordinator walk in (in my mind, I thought he was visiting). Apparently, both the IPPE coordinator and the preceptor sat me down and told me I failed the rotation-with no midpoint evaluation, no academic warning, no teaching, no instruction. Their reasoning did not make logical sense because they said, "you don't seem interested in this profession, so we're not gonna pass you." This was the WORST MOMENT IN MY ACADEMIC CAREER. I presented my case to the academic committee and the dean and they pretty much said the preceptor has the right to do whatever she wants-which is bull****. In fact, the school themselves violated the rules by not giving an academic warning and not following ACPE guidelines. I actually consulted an educational lawyer & I showed them all documents in CORE (website used to upload rotational documents) and the preceptor/IPPE coordinator's statement and I was told the school committed educational malpractice. I f*****g lost $60K. On top of that-instead of making me redo the rotation at a different site. The school f*****G said I had to repeat P1 year (all the classes I had passed). Ultimately I decided it was best to let the school "win this battle," which is why I rage quit my program. BUT LEMME TELL YOU IF YOU KNOW ANYONE APPLYING TO HIGH POINT PHARMD SCHOOL-TELL THEM NOT TO APPLY HERE. THE FACULTY IS KNOWN FOR COMMITTING SHADY PRACTICES AND TAKING ADVANTAGE OF STUDENTS WHO CAN PAY FOR THE TUITION. Plus, ask yourself, in this saturated job market- is it really worth paying $60k a year?

 

[VA77]

Yes! Thank you for your sympathy. Actually I posted it in the forum: Failed APPE rotation & also I gave a brief overview in the High Point University PharmD Review forum. Basically, I was supposed to be at the rotation for 4 weeks on May of last year at Harris Teeter pharmacy in Burlington, NC, and my preceptor was not even there the first day & most of the second day. There was no teaching, no academic instruction, etc. For most of the time, I worked with the other pharmacist and he told **** and lies about me to the IPPE coordinator-saying crap like, "she did not participate." "Or she didn't seem interested." Which was a LIE since I was contributing by filling vials, answering phone calls, organizing shelves, etc. Granted I had just started so I was still getting used to the flow of things so I didn't know the computer system well & I was told for legal reasons I was not allowed to use the register. At around 5 pm on the second day, the preceptor walks, pulls me aside and says, "oh the other pharmacist said you're not contributing at all"-which was BULLS**T. I worked with her for 2 hours and apparently she called the school's IPPE coordinator and told him, "I cannot pass this student," and when I walked in on my 3rd day the preceptor told me to work on my OTC list project. Then I saw the IPPE coordinator walk in (in my mind, I thought he was visiting). Apparently, both the IPPE coordinator and the preceptor sat me down and told me I failed the rotation-with no midpoint evaluation, no academic warning, no teaching, no instruction. Their reasoning did not make logical sense because they said, "you don't seem interested in this profession, so we're not gonna pass you." This was the WORST MOMENT IN MY ACADEMIC CAREER. I presented my case to the academic committee and the dean and they pretty much said the preceptor has the right to do whatever she wants-which is bull****. In fact, the school themselves violated the rules by not giving an academic warning and not following ACPE guidelines. I actually consulted an educational lawyer & I showed them all documents in CORE (website used to upload rotational documents) and the preceptor/IPPE coordinator's statement and I was told the school committed educational malpractice. I f*****g lost $60K. On top of that-instead of making me redo the rotation at a different site. The school f*****G said I had to repeat P1 year (all the classes I had passed). Ultimately I decided it was best to let the school "win this battle," which is why I rage quit my program. BUT LEMME TELL YOU IF YOU KNOW ANYONE APPLYING TO HIGH POINT PHARMD SCHOOL-TELL THEM NOT TO APPLY HERE. THE FACULTY IS KNOWN FOR COMMITTING SHADY PRACTICES AND TAKING ADVANTAGE OF STUDENTS WHO CAN PAY FOR THE TUITION. Plus, ask yourself, in this saturated job market- is it really worth paying $60k a year?

Did you contact ACPE with a grievance?