Surgery

[gibna]

Hello MD/DO students, I am a 2nd year PhD student in one of the basic science programs and I am going to start with a joint DO/PhD program next year. So here is my question, do you guys think that a PhD will help my chances in getting into an allopathic surgery residency program? Or do residency programs only look at your grades and USMLE scores. Or am I just screwed in getting into any allopathic residency programs because I will be a DO.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[southerndoc]

Why not just go to MD school if you want to do an allopathic residency?

 

[gibna]

Because I didn't get accepted to any.

 

[southerndoc]

Oh, sorry. Just do well in school. I'm sure everything you've done in life will be an asset. You are finishing your PhD right?

I think your chances of getting an allopathic residency with a DO degree will be less than if you get an MD degree, but is it worth not going the DO route and reapplying? Who knows.

There are several DO surgery residents. Surgery isn't as competitive as it used to be.

Study hard and do well on boards!

 

[gibna]

Thanks for the encouragement, I am thinking about taking 2 years off between my second and third year to get my PhD, I am just debating now on whether its worth it. If it helps me get into a competitive residency spot then I'd go for it. But I know that my grades and USMLE scores will be more important. I just want to do something that will equate me with other MD's I think.
The thought of reapplying does come in mind, since I've been getting interviews to all my state schools, I just don't know if I can take a rejection again, and nothing is garanteed.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Unless you work really, really hard, getting a PhD in a period of two years is not as easy as you make it sound. Of the MD/PhD students at my school, I know of only one (or possibly two) who completed a PhD in two years between the second and third-years of medical school.

Typically a PhD candidate will take anywhere between three and six years to finish everything.

Being a DO going into surgery, where old biases exist at most programs, is sort of an uphill climb though not impossible. During my interviews I met only one DO resident at one university program in Philadelphia, PA. He did incredibly well on the USMLE (not just the COMLEX) Steps 1 and 2, had a few papers under his belt, but overall had nothing else academic going for him. He told me he had a great connection over at PCOM, where he attended school.

I think if you can emulate what this guy did, then you'll be a shoe-in at good surgical programs. Harvard's Mass General, the Brigham, or BI-Deaconess probably not, but a good program nonetheless.

But a PhD will help you if you have mediocre numbers at the time of application, and will even help you in a fellowship search later I believe.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Don't sweat it. Just do what you want. I would NOT do the PhD if the main reason is to "be competitive" for a residency program. It won't help THAT much, and it's a long haul.

As a DO, you're gonna get negged at some programs good and bad simply because surgery is a very conservative field that is only recently opening up. But I am an MD student and I got negged at some lower tier places, and invited from some upper tier places... go figure.

If you were applying during this cycle I would say that you have a reasonable shot. Last year, there was a record number of unfilled slots. I think there were around 60 (possibly more) open positions that had to be filled via the scramble. My impression is that things are picking up in GS, and last year's numbers may have been the bottom of the trough. At any rate, you won't be applying for at least a few years so it's pointless to worry about it.

The main thing is that being a DO does not automatically exclude you from the running. I met only one DO student during my interviews but he said that he had lots of invites from middle to upper-middle tier programs. I have no idea what his qualifications were though. The one thing that will absolutely help you is to hammer out a great Step I score.

Good luck.

 

[gibna]

I had the impression that it was almost impossible to get a surgery residency in an allopathic school if you were a DO, so that was the main reason for thinking about getting something extra, which is a PhD.
I am going to get my masters in Neurobiology next semester, and my advisor so that I could come back and start with my PhD after 2 years if I get a DO and I can transfer a lot of credits from my DO program to my PhD one. And things are getting done really quickly in my lab so I figure I will be able to get that PhD in 2 years. And thank god its something I enjoy. The only problem is that it will take an extra two years of my life and my girlfriend keeps on saying that I am wasting my time. Damn those JD's, they get everything done in 3 years.
Well again, thanks for your time, your advice is really helpful.

 

[Castro Viejo]

Originally posted by gibna
Damn those JD's, they get everything done in 3 years.

Yeah, but they've gotta live with the fact that they're lawyers for the rest of their lives.

Good luck. It's honestly impossible to predict the competitiveness of General Surgery in four, five, or six years from today. Just go to med school, do well, and see what happens in the end. Heck, most med students change their minds by the end of their fourth-year -- I certainly did.

 

[jt999]

Why don't you just spend the 2 years now getting the Ph.D and during that time reapply to allopathic schools? The Ph.D can only increase your chances of getting accepted.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Some of the more academic programs might be interested in your PhD (after all, the days of the physician/surgeon-researcher are waning). However, these may well be the very places that look askance at a DO degree.

IMHO, it won't make much difference - there are programs that don't care about what your degree is and there are others who will prefer an MD resident. Having the PhD won't make a significant difference at these programs. And for those in between, still probably won't be a significant asset - if you are interested in the degree, get it...but as others have said, I'll bet it takes you longer than 2 years, and if you aren't interested totally in it, or don't plan a career in academics, it might be a waste of time.

 

[FireAway]

Surgery isn't as competitive as it used to be, that's a fact, but nearly all programs fill the spots that don't fill with US allopathic seniors with foreign grads before DOs. Its hoped that people pursuing the DO degree are doing so because they believe in the tenets of osteopathy, the focus on the "whole patient" or whatever they're selling these days, and not just using DO school as a backdoor into residency programs they're not properly trained for. If you really want to go into surgery then you should apply to allopathic school again.

 

[apma77]

I would not get a ph.d just to get into a gen surg program
its very easy to get into surgery residency these days regardless of DO or MD.

save yourself alot of time and only do phd if thats what u really want

US MD seniors are avioding gen surg like the plague

 

[Winged Scapula]

Originally posted by apma77
I would not get a ph.d just to get into a gen surg program
its very easy to get into surgery residency these days regardless of DO or MD.

save yourself alot of time and only do phd if thats what u really want

US MD seniors are avioding gen surg like the plague

Really? We received twice as many applications this year as last, and didn't interview any IMGs for Categorical positions.

With the proposed work hour changes, US MD seniors aren't avoiding Gen Surg "like the plague" but rather most programs are seeing increased interest. However, it is admittedly not as popular as it once was...but that may change as we see how the work hours issue pans out.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Originally posted by Kimberli Cox
Really? We received twice as many applications this year as last, and didn't interview any IMGs for Categorical positions.

k-

Aren't you an "IMG"?

 

[apma77]

I dont care what any surgery supporter says but the truth is that these days graduating surgeons making crap money and life style is pathetic. that is the primary reason many students avoid it like the palgue in the match.

 

[Winged Scapula]

CP...

Yes I am...I've never made a secret of that and I'm not sure what it has to do with the application and interview patterns this year.

And apma, if you had done any reading of my posts over the last 3 years you would see I hardly qualify as a "surgery supporter" - I discourage people from doing it unless they cannot possibly think of doing anything else. Regardless, while gen surg isn't as popular as it once was and I am well aware of the lifestyle reasons given, people are hardly avoiding it "like the plague"...at least not at our program.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

Originally posted by Kimberli Cox
CP...

Yes I am...I've never made a secret of that and I'm not sure what it has to do with the application and interview patterns this year.

Did you scramble in to a slot at Penn State, or did Penn State interview IMGs when you applied?

I find it strange that a ho-hum program like Penn State chooses to ignore, en bloc, an entire applicant group. Especially when the program has trouble filling its spots and avoiding the scramble.

 

[nanato]

I know of douzens of DO's who are doing surgery at allopathic programs... from USF , Univ. of North Carolina, Univ. of Calif, Maricopa/Good Sams, Albert Einstein(philly), U of Kansas, Cleveland Clinic.... the way to do it is quiet simple...
First you can't just use your complex scores, you need good USMLE's (210 and above), and you need to rotate there, that is key... some DO programs have 8-9 elective months your 4th year and you can really go anywhere, spent 2 consecutive months at a few institution and shine... MD students don't have the luxury of that many electives... use them wisely... surgery is wide open these days.... and none of these people i know had a phD... they just had heart...really all you need (some luck never hurt either).

 

[ESU_MD]

I am a US IMG and I interviewed at Penn State this season for categorical surgery. So did 2 of my classmates. Maybe since there were so many interviewees you forgot about us? Granted we are all US citizens + boards >250 so we may have been rare exceptions. Whether or not we were ranked.....

I do think surgery is competitive though, at least the good programs. As a matter of fact most of the places I interviewed at I was the only IMG. I only met 2 DO's on the trail. Believe it or not, some other applicants actually got visibly annoyed that the program had invited me! Pretty intimidating at first, but all successful IMG's must develop thick skin.

FWIW, I thought PSU was a great program. Living in Hershey would be much much nicer than putting up with the hells of city life in NYC or Chicago! To each their own.

 

[gibna]

Well it's nice to hear that surgical residencies aren't that competitive anymore regardless of whether your an MD or a Do, I guess I will stop with my Masters since a PhD won't help that much. And I don't realy want to risk applying MD next year since nothing is gauranteed.
Thanks for everbody advice.