Telling med school about children on secondary or during interview

[ski89]

Bumping this thread (that I made a fool of myself in by getting stupidly angry in) to throw in my experience from my now completed cycle. I wrote about my wife and children in every secondary I completed. I ended up getting 6 interviews this cycle and spoke about my family in every one. I went 6 for 6 in acceptances and now have some tough choices to make. I'm glad that I was upfront about having kids because I got a ton of great info about student-parent groups, local schools, and how other students with families balanced their time.

To be sure I had clear answers for how I planned to/knew I could handle being both a father and a med student and was prepared every time the questions were asked. In the end, my family is a huge part of who I am and why I'm here, and to have not spoken about them would not have presented the real me and would have weakened my personal narrative.

Congrats! To give you a little more encouragement, with one semester of med school under my belt I can tell you that being a father (I have two toddlers) has had no negative impact on my studies thus far. I work my ass off 7-5 M-F, I study at night after the family goes to bed for a few hours, but that's pretty much been it. I have still been able to keep my weekends and evenings open for family time with the exception of test weeks (~3 weeks/ semester). Now to be sure, I know that things will only get more difficult from here on out; But with a little organization, a **** load of anki cards, and a love for what I do, its been pretty easy so far.

Good luck!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[VegasPreMed]

Congrats! To give you a little more encouragement, with one semester of med school under my belt I can tell you that being a father (I have two toddlers) has had no negative impact on my studies thus far. I work my ass off 7-5 M-F, I study at night after the family goes to bed for a few hours, but that's pretty much been it. I have still been able to keep my weekends and evenings open for family time with the exception of test weeks (~3 weeks/ semester). Now to be sure, I know that things will only get more difficult from here on out; But with a little organization, a **** load of anki cards, and a love for what I do, its been pretty easy so far.

Good luck!

Very glad to hear this! I start in the fall with soon-to-be six year old and will be almost one year old. We prefer being on schedules so it's great to hear this is possible. Congrats and glad to hear things are going well for you. Best of luck!

As an aside, I mentioned having kids in my primary. Even threw in a "#1 Dad Award" in the activities section with a tongue-in-cheek yearly coffee mug award. It was mentioned in two of my interviews and they loved it. So far I've had seven interview invites, went on four, and have been accepted at three (waiting on the result of that last one).

Maybe it hindered me, maybe not. But you know what? The interviewers geared some of the talk towards other medical students with kids and mentioned multiple support groups at the school. I couldn't imagine not mentioning them and am glad I did.

 

[Annabell Lee]

I'm glad there is an actual discussion going on about this!
I'm kind of torn, because I'm afraid it will be held against me, but I've also been strongly encouraged to mention it.

I'm a single mom, I usually take between 17 and 19 credits, have worked through almost all of undergrad (I'm a night shift nurse, also do some on campus stuff). I currently have a 3.94 and also have decent ECs, have several officer positions in school organizations.

I was thinking that might be something worth including in one of those "hardship" essays. But I'm afraid it would be held against me.

I'm also first generation college student/low SES and have had some much more personal hardships I've overcome. I feel like most of the ways in which I offer diversity or examples of hardships I've faced are things I also have to worry about being held against me.

 

[njtrimed]

Not to diminish your accomplishment, because it's pretty awesome, but I'm genuinely curious if schools would have taken the same approach if you were a woman...

n=1, but I'm a mom and I mentioned that in my applications and during interviews. It honestly didn't occur to me that I should or shouldn't; it's a huge part of who I am. I don't know how that would have played out at all the schools I applied to; I withdrew all of my applications after I was accepted to my top choice DO and MD schools. But parenthood came up during interviews, and when the dean of admissions called me to accept me at the school I am matriculating to, he said he was extremely impressed that I managed full-time grad school with a full-time job, especially as a parent. I would not be surprised if there wasn't a huge double standard and if I wouldn't my have fared as well at other schools. Luckily my top choice turned out to be the perfect fit for me, on all levels including this one.

 

[Med Ed]

I'm glad there is an actual discussion going on about this!
I'm kind of torn, because I'm afraid it will be held against me, but I've also been strongly encouraged to mention it.

I'm a single mom, I usually take between 17 and 19 credits, have worked through almost all of undergrad (I'm a night shift nurse, also do some on campus stuff). I currently have a 3.94 and also have decent ECs, have several officer positions in school organizations.

I was thinking that might be something worth including in one of those "hardship" essays. But I'm afraid it would be held against me.

I'm also first generation college student/low SES and have had some much more personal hardships I've overcome. I feel like most of the ways in which I offer diversity or examples of hardships I've faced are things I also have to worry about being held against me.

Overcoming hardship is often the most compelling aspect of an application.

A person with good application who has had significant added responsibilities (kid, job, etc.) will end up looking that much better. The trick with children is that, from an admissions standpoint, they are not like a 20-30 hour/week job that will end prior to matriculation. They are an obligation that will continue, and this can be viewed negatively in applicants who are less strong to begin with and/or lack an adequate support network.

As it is with human nature, we tend to be better at remembering/romanticizing/disseminating the success stories while sweeping the bad outcomes under the mental rug.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Overcoming hardship is often the most compelling aspect of an application.

A person with good application who has had significant added responsibilities (kid, job, etc.) will end up looking that much better. The trick with children is that, from an admissions standpoint, they are not like a 20-30 hour/week job that will end prior to matriculation. They are an obligation that will continue, and this can be viewed negatively in applicants who are less strong to begin with and/or lack an adequate support network.

As it is with human nature, we tend to be better at remembering/romanticizing/disseminating the success stories while sweeping the bad outcomes under the mental rug.

To go off the bold at the end the other big factor here is the OP had good stats and was a military vet. In other words, they were a highly desirable asset to many medical schools in ways the large majority of applicants wont be. There are very few things themselves that are truly absolute "deal breakers" in admission. The question simply becomes what do you bring to the table and what do you have that could make evaluators overlook potential concerns. Certain applicants with certain accomplishments or backgrounds can be given more "leeway" on this per se if they have things the school really covets.

That's my takeaway here; no way would I ever recommend this as a course of action to somebody looking to present an application that has the best chance of being successful. In the truly coldest and harshest sense of the word parenting, parents have significant obligations in terms of significant time taken away from their medical training and significant emotional strain/burden applicants without kids are less likely to have. Those arent characteristics to openly highlight that you will have to face in medical school and residency.

 

[MarioKart]

I don't think LizzyM thinks being a parent means you won't be able to pass medical school. Its the matter of fact that LizzyM and other ADCOMS at selective colleges, are not just looking for people to pass medical school, but excel in it. Being a parent while in medical school is a time sink and whether you like it or not, will hinder progress.

On another side note, if you watch Shark Tank, this situation comes up all the time. Mark Cuban is always reluctant to invest in ideas where the person has another part time job. Even if the entrepreneur has shown the capability to split their time between the two businesses well, there is going to be someone else who can focus on the new idea 24/7 and beat them to the punch. Same concept applies to medical school

I love that show!!! and that is a very good point

 

[bumblebee611]

n=1, but I'm a mom and I mentioned that in my applications and during interviews. It honestly didn't occur to me that I should or shouldn't; it's a huge part of who I am. I don't know how that would have played out at all the schools I applied to; I withdrew all of my applications after I was accepted to my top choice DO and MD schools. But parenthood came up during interviews, and when the dean of admissions called me to accept me at the school I am matriculating to, he said he was extremely impressed that I managed full-time grad school with a full-time job, especially as a parent. I would not be surprised if there wasn't a huge double standard and if I wouldn't my have fared as well at other schools. Luckily my top choice turned out to be the perfect fit for me, on all levels including this one.

Here's n up to two -- had a very successful cycle (applied MD) and I wrote extensively about being a parent (AND another big caregiving responsibility) in both my primary and secondary applications. I understand LizzyM's advice, but I don't know how on earth I would have accounted for my time and career trajectory if I didn't mention being a parent (of a child with disabilities).

 

[njtrimed]

To go off the bold at the end the other big factor here is the OP had good stats and was a military vet. In other words, they were a highly desirable asset to many medical schools in ways the large majority of applicants wont be. There are very few things themselves that are truly absolute "deal breakers" in admission. The question simply becomes what do you bring to the table and what do you have that could make evaluators overlook potential concerns. Certain applicants with certain accomplishments or backgrounds can be given more "leeway" on this per se if they have things the school really covets.

That's my takeaway here; no way would I ever recommend this as a course of action to somebody looking to present an application that has the best chance of being successful. In the truly coldest and harshest sense of the word parenting, parents have significant obligations in terms of significant time taken away from their medical training and significant emotional strain/burden applicants without kids are less likely to have. Those arent characteristics to openly highlight that you will have to face in medical school and residency.

I can see the logic here, and perhaps if I read this thread and what LizzyM said before submitting my primary I would have approached this more cautiously than I did. But I wonder if I would have come across as disingenuous, or just completely flaky. Like @bumblebee611, the choices I've made definitely make more sense for someone who is a parent. This is probably the only instance in which my gut goes against the advice of those whose wisdom guided me this cycle- I think that parenthood is too fundamental to who you are as a person and future physician to completely ignore in a process that essentially requires you to bare your soul.

And purely for the sake of argument, I'm not sure what percentage of physicians have kids, much less by specialty, but I'm guessing many of my classmates will start medical school single and get married and have children during residency or soon after finishing training. If I'm a mom and I have already proven that I can balance two other full-time responsibilities (plus volunteering and hobbies) with parenthood, why isn't that a positive? If you know that I can balance studying for the MCAT while nursing a newborn, working full-time, and taking 20 credits in graduate school, am I not a safer bet than the kid who still lives at home with his parents? (And to be clear- I'm not arguing that this would make me superior to other candidates because I can manage my time this well, but I am arguing that I should not be considered inferior either, because I can manage my time this well.)

 

[ridethecliche]

n=1, but I'm a mom and I mentioned that in my applications and during interviews. It honestly didn't occur to me that I should or shouldn't; it's a huge part of who I am. I don't know how that would have played out at all the schools I applied to; I withdrew all of my applications after I was accepted to my top choice DO and MD schools. But parenthood came up during interviews, and when the dean of admissions called me to accept me at the school I am matriculating to, he said he was extremely impressed that I managed full-time grad school with a full-time job, especially as a parent. I would not be surprised if there wasn't a huge double standard and if I wouldn't my have fared as well at other schools. Luckily my top choice turned out to be the perfect fit for me, on all levels including this one.

Congrats! That's amazing!

One of my classmates has an infant and she seems to be doing great in school but has the benefit of having an extremely supportive spouse. I just think that our society is still back asswards and places most of the responsibility on the mother for these things so I could see it being held against a person like you. I'm glad it wasn't though and I'm hoping for a time when that's the case for everyone.

Good luck with school!

 

[GrapesofRath]

I can see the logic here, and perhaps if I read this thread and what LizzyM said before submitting my primary I would have approached this more cautiously than I did. But I wonder if I would have come across as disingenuous, or just completely flaky. Like @bumblebee611, the choices I've made definitely make more sense for someone who is a parent. This is probably the only instance in which my gut goes against the advice of those whose wisdom guided me this cycle- I think that parenthood is too fundamental to who you are as a person and future physician to completely ignore in a process that essentially requires you to bare your soul.

And purely for the sake of argument, I'm not sure what percentage of physicians have kids, much less by specialty, but I'm guessing many of my classmates will start medical school single and get married and have children during residency or soon after finishing training. If I'm a mom and I have already proven that I can balance two other full-time responsibilities (plus volunteering and hobbies) with parenthood, why isn't that a positive? If you know that I can balance studying for the MCAT while nursing a newborn, working full-time, and taking 20 credits in graduate school, am I not a safer bet than the kid who still lives at home with his parents? (And to be clear- I'm not arguing that this would make me superior to other candidates because I can manage my time this well, but I am arguing that I should not be considered inferior either, because I can manage my time this well.)

What you are saying isnt a surprising perspective for a parent applying to medical school, I can see where you are coming from. Ultimately what it comes down to is when you are applying to medical school your goal is to highlight the characteristics that make you the most attractive candidate, and just as importantly leave out and not emphasize the characteristics that could weaken your candidacy.

It's not really an issue of "if I dont mention having kids I'm being disingenuous" it's a matter of highlight the characteristics that make you the best applicant. We all have characteristics or things in our past we dont care to wish to share be it previous health issues, getting fired from jobs etc that you could argue give someone a better perspective of "who you are" and your strengths and weaknesses etc. The same type of thing is your logic in saying I should include being a parent in my app; it tells an ADCOM "who I am". But we all know those things I mentioned above have no business on a medical school application. When talking about applications and admission, how you choose to present your strengths and not draw attention to any potential weaknesses or highlight things that could be weaknesses is everything.

As to answer your question which I bolded, I think here is what you might be confusing. It's great to show you juggled lots of activities or overcame alot of adversity etc while getting good grades to ADCOMs. But the key caveat is those struggles are things of the past or those activities in college wont be things youll have to worry about or pursue in medical school. Showing you can multitask is great because in medical school you have to multitask in many aspects of medical training. But if these things that made you multitask in college like being a parent wont go away in medical school and youll still have to deal with them, thats where the concern comes in. Now, instead of having to juggle academics and medical school activities like rotations etc, you have to throw in being a parent. That is alot to ask and that time as a parent will take away time as a student and time you spend studying. That's how you have to look at it and why it isn't a positive. You are taking alot of time away that can be spent studying and adding more emotional toll/stress being a parent that other medical school applicants dont have or dont have to worry about.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

someone that has a family and doesn't view/mention them as a major part of their life is probably not the type of human being you want as a doctor anyway.

lost me here

 

[VegasPreMed]

Aside from anecdotes, is there any evidence that medical students with children do worse? A common theme here seems to be that they are "in cold hard terms, a time sink". Anything other than personal feelings showing this? So far, no one has posted saying that being a parent hindered their application (as far as they know). While I will never know if I would have received another interview or two without mentioning the kids, all I had were positive reactions about it (I'm not a top notch applicant; I have a 3.17 cGPA).

I'm curious if there is any data or actual evidence behind this "kids make an applicant a liability" thought process.

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

Aside from anecdotes, is there any evidence that medical students with children do worse? A common theme here seems to be that they are "in cold hard terms, a time sink". Anything other than personal feelings showing this? So far, no one has posted saying that being a parent hindered their application (as far as they know). While I will never know if I would have received another interview or two without mentioning the kids, all I had were positive reactions about it (I'm not a top notch applicant; I have a 3.17 cGPA).

I'm curious if there is any data or actual evidence behind this "kids make an applicant a liability" thought process.

I doubt there is data on it because they don't even ask. If you know anyone with children, thats all the data you need to know that you cannot possibly devote the same amount of time to studying as before.

 

[njtrimed]

What you are saying isnt a surprising perspective for a parent applying to medical school, I can see where you are coming from. Ultimately what it comes down to is when you are applying to medical school your goal is to highlight the characteristics that make you the most attractive candidate, and just as importantly leave out and not emphasize the characteristics that could weaken your candidacy.

It's not really an issue of "if I dont mention having kids I'm being disingenuous" it's a matter of highlight the characteristics that make you the best applicant. We all have characteristics or things in our past we dont care to wish to share be it previous health issues, getting fired from jobs etc that you could argue give someone a better perspective of "who you are" and your strengths and weaknesses etc. The same type of thing is your logic in saying I should include being a parent in my app; it tells an ADCOM "who I am". But we all know those things I mentioned above have no business on a medical school application. When talking about applications and admission, how you choose to present your strengths and not draw attention to any potential weaknesses or highlight things that could be weaknesses is everything.

As to answer your question which I bolded, I think here is what you might be confusing. It's great to show you juggled lots of activities or overcame alot of adversity etc while getting good grades to ADCOMs. But the key caveat is those struggles are things of the past or those activities in college wont be things youll have to worry about or pursue in medical school. Showing you can multitask is great because in medical school you have to multitask in many aspects of medical training. But if these things that made you multitask in college like being a parent wont go away in medical school and youll still have to deal with them, thats where the concern comes in. Now, instead of having to juggle academics and medical school activities like rotations etc, you have to throw in being a parent. That is alot to ask and that time as a parent will take away time as a student and time you spend studying. That's how you have to look at it and why it isn't a positive. You are taking alot of time away that can be spent studying and adding more emotional toll/stress being a parent that other medical school applicants dont have or dont have to worry about.

This makes perfect sense. The majority of "traditional" med students will wait until residency (or later) to choose to start a family, so in the eyes of ADCOMs who are only concerned about students' performance over the next four years and not further down the road, children are a "handicap." I suppose that given this point of view, I might think differently about mentioning parenthood during the application process.

I guess that for most parents, it's counterintuitive not to discuss your kids when someone wants to know who you are and what your life is outside of medicine. And I know that for me, having a family makes me a stronger candidate than I was before on many levels. For one thing, my whole family's well-being rests on me making the most of this opportunity, so I'm that much more motivated to stay at the top of my game. And while this is highly individual, I personally have a much easier time now juggling graduate school and work than I had in undergrad because I have a much better support network. When I work a 13 hour shift in the OR and then have to stay up studying for an exam, my husband takes care of all the household responsibilities and makes sure I'm fed. And to make sure I can spend at least a little time with my family, I've become much more efficient and focused.

That said, I can see why it's advisable not to raise these questions if it can be avoided. In hindsight, I have no regrets since it worked out for me. But I understand your point of view.

 

[LizzyM]

This is a case of YMMV. Certainly, if you mention it, the school will want to know about your support system and how you will handle the demands of med school (including overnight shifts in the hospital) while having responsibility for minor children.

As much as we like to remember the students who did well while being parents, we also know of those who struggled and ended up before the promotions committee.

I do suspect that there is a bias against mothers vs fathers. As always YMMV. I'm be conservative in talking about things that might raise doubts about your ability to be successful.

 

[VegasPreMed]

I doubt there is data on it because they don't even ask. If you know anyone with children, thats all the data you need to know that you cannot possibly devote the same amount of time to studying as before.

See, this is what I mean though. Medical students post frequently about how, while they are very busy, they find time to relax/do research/visit with friends. Students that are parents just devote that time to their family instead. If ADCOMs were only concerned with who would score the best on exams then the 4.0/40 applicant with no ECs would get in every time.

Goro and others have also mentioned that they are looking for applicants who would make good doctors, not just good students.

 

[njtrimed]

See, this is what I mean though. Medical students post frequently about how, while they are very busy, they find time to relax/do research/visit with friends. Students that are parents just devote that time to their family instead. If ADCOMs were only concerned with who would score the best on exams then the 4.0/40 applicant with no ECs would get in every time.

Goro and others have also mentioned that they are looking for applicants who would make good doctors, not just good students.

I completely understand the argument. Kids aren't a "red flag," but mentioning them complicates the admissions process from an ADCOM's point of view, and it becomes imperative to demonstrate a strong support system. If I have a sick kid, for example, would that mean I couldn't make it to my rotation, or to an exam? In my case, my husband will be available, and we are fortunate to have family close by who can and will jump in any time we need them. For others with kids, that's simply not an option. If the kid is sick, they will not be allowed at daycare or school, and with nobody else to stay home, the parent/med student has no choice but to stay home and take care of the kid.

 

[bumblebee611]

This makes perfect sense. The majority of "traditional" med students will wait until residency (or later) to choose to start a family, so in the eyes of ADCOMs who are only concerned about students' performance over the next four years and not further down the road, children are a "handicap." I suppose that given this point of view, I might think differently about mentioning parenthood during the application process.

I thought about this, too ... my kids will be 15 and 17 by the time I start residency. How does that mean I am going to be a weaker candidate than someone (male or female) who has infants or toddlers during residency?!

 

[Goro]

You're not a weaker candidate for having older kids at that point.

I thought about this, too ... my kids will be 15 and 17 by the time I start residency. How does that mean I am going to be a weaker candidate than someone (male or female) who has infants or toddlers during residency?!