Texas open carry at psychiatric hospitals...

[daru1]

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/guns-now-allowed-in-texas-state-run-psychiatric-ho/npztT/

I'm putting this info out for people that may be thinking about starting residency in Texas or are interested in jobs with the DSHS.

I've rotated through 2 of the state hospitals during residency and fellowship...

I've things that would lead me to believe that having people openly-carry guns would have led to an escalation of behavior on patient's and non-patient's sides...

People here are quick to point out that the patients would still be required to not have guns...

Do any of you think that this is a good idea? I'm honestly asking. I'm also honestly thankful that I'm out of training, I don't think could have gone to the places I did considering the job requirements for patient care at the state hospitals and the increased stress of possible gun violence that would come with it.

Let it fly opinioneers:

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[milesed]

I'd be more concerned that a patient might get a gun away from its owner and harm someone.

 

[vistaril]

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/guns-now-allowed-in-texas-state-run-psychiatric-ho/npztT/

I'm putting this info out for people that may be thinking about starting residency in Texas or are interested in jobs with the DSHS.

I've rotated through 2 of the state hospitals during residency and fellowship...

I've things that would lead me to believe that having people openly-carry guns would have led to an escalation of behavior on patient's and non-patient's sides...

People here are quick to point out that the patients would still be required to not have guns...

Do any of you think that this is a good idea? I'm honestly asking. I'm also honestly thankful that I'm out of training, I don't think could have gone to the places I did considering the job requirements for patient care at the state hospitals and the increased stress of possible gun violence that would come with it.

Let it fly opinioneers:

my opinion is that open carry everywhere in every situation is a good idea.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I'd be more concerned that a patient might get a gun away from its owner and harm someone.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/10/18/us/minnesota-deputy-killed/
..and that was a trained professional...

 

[wolfvgang22]

I personally cannot reconcile carrying a gun with being a Physician.
I don't want to see any guns in my hospital unless it's being carried by a law enforcement officer.

 

[Armadillos]

I could be wrong, but I think at most psych hospitals even law enforcement doesn't carry firearms when they are coming to the unit to transport a patient or something. I think they lock their guns in their trunk outside or something. Having any guns on a psychiatric unit seems like a recipe for disaster

 

[vistaril]

I personally cannot reconcile carrying a gun with being a Physician.
I don't want to see any guns in my hospital unless it's being carried by a law enforcement officer.

There likely are plenty of guns in your hospital now. I don't know what your hospital rules are, but plenty of people concealed carry even in buildings that supposedly prohibit it. I know plenty of people that do this at local hospitals here...some physicians and some not.

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

This goes a very long way towards reinforcing Texas stereotypes.

 

[eli20]

Just as an FYI - open carry is still not allowed in hospitals associated with a university and private hospitals can post signs that disallow it. This is a function of these places being run by the state and yes - it's stupid and dangerous.

my opinion is that open carry everywhere in every situation is a good idea.

Why? I'm genuinely interested.

This goes a very long way towards reinforcing Texas stereotypes.

Not that you meant it this way... but I'm just going to take this time to point out that Texas is a very diverse state and that there are millions and millions of people who would agree that this is a bad idea. You can look at national elections and see we are far more purple than what most people would think. Our local politics are just a little insane and marred by deeply entrenched cronyism.

Sorry for making the billionth stop on my Texas apology tour... Sometimes I feel like I'm in an abusive relationship with my home state .

 

[MacDonaldTriad]

Stereotypes are often not accurate. I agree that the much of the country has unsupported automatic thinking when Texas is mentioned, but laws like this do perpetuate the perception.

 

[daru1]

I could be wrong, but I think at most psych hospitals even law enforcement doesn't carry firearms when they are coming to the unit to transport a patient or something. I think they lock their guns in their trunk outside or something. Having any guns on a psychiatric unit seems like a recipe for disaster

When law enforcement entered the two state hospitals I was working, they locked their firearms into their own lockers before entering patient care areas. This is verified in the article.

 

[vistaril]

Why? I'm genuinely interested.

.

because it is my belief that guns are inherently good and that more of them being carried openly(and concealed) by responsible gun owners is always a good thing.

 

[eli20]

because it is my belief that guns are inherently good and that more of them being carried openly(and concealed) by responsible gun owners is always a good thing.

Inherently good? How is any inanimate object, much less one with the sole function to harm, "inherently good?"

edit: I'm probably going to regret starting this conversation... I really don't want to/intend to start some epic flame war btw.

 

[vistaril]

Inherently good? How is any inanimate object, much less one who's sole function is to harm, "inherently good?"

edit: I'm probably going to regret starting this conversation... I really don't want to/intend to start some epic flame war btw.

So let's just avoid going any further then. I don't say that in a mean spirited way; there is just no point. I like guns and you don't. So because of that I have guns and it probably means you don't(or just have a couple at most). And that's ok on both our parts.

 

[wolfvgang22]

Yeah, every inpatient unit I've ever worked on, the campus police keep their guns locked in a special locker before going on the psych floor.

Texas mostly is true to the stereotypes, except in Austin, which is the more progressive area compared to the rest of the state. It is ironically the capital city where these laws are passed.

 

[birchswing]

Texas mostly is true to the stereotypes, except in Austin, which is the more progressive area compared to the rest of the state. It is ironically the capital city where these laws are passed.

It's the same nationally. D.C. and surrounding area are fairly progressive and are sent the best and brightest from "Real America," who go home to tell their constituents how Washington D.C. is broken.

 

[eli20]

Yeah, every inpatient unit I've ever worked on, the campus police keep their guns locked in a special locker before going on the psych floor.

Texas mostly is true to the stereotypes, except in Austin, which is the more progressive area compared to the rest of the state. It is ironically the capital city where these laws are passed.

I'd put San Antonio and Houston into a similar category, although Austin is obviously in a different league. I'm sure Dallas/Ft. Worth are similar, I just don't have personal experience living there.

 

[FlowRate]

I'm from an open carry state and support it in general, but I do not think it is appropriate for an inpatient ward, which is what I think most people are imagining. There should be near certainty that no one on the inpatient unit is carrying a weapon as a matter of policy.

I do think it is entirely reasonable to concealed carry in an outpatient / ambulatory setting.

As for how to justify carrying as a physician, I think that's a personal thing. I don't think I'll ever concealed carry even though I think I should have the right to do so. The goal isn't to carry a gun to kill another person, the goal is to hopefully incapacitate a mortal threat to others as efficiently as possible.

 

[notdeadyet]

I do think it is entirely reasonable to concealed carry in an outpatient / ambulatory setting.

I can't imagine how knowing the patient sitting across from me is carrying a firearm wouldn't affect therapy. PE treatment for PTSD, psychodynamic psychotherapy, heck just about any therapy there are times when the intent is to challenge the patient and potentially induce short-term decompensation for long-term improvement. I wouldn't want to do that with someone armed.

Not in my office, thanks...

 

[vistaril]

I can't imagine how knowing the patient sitting across from me is carrying a firearm wouldn't affect therapy. ..

I've sat across from plenty of patients before in an outpt setting who were armed, and it wasn't an issue at all. Now granted it wasn't really therapy, but still it never crossed my mind..

 

[notdeadyet]

I was definitely thinking more along the lines of therapy than medication management, but I'd keep a no firearms policy regardless, just because there is always a risk of de compensation if you're dealing with significant pathology.

I do a lot of PTSD work, and a fair bit with several law enforcement officers, whom I have great trust in and respect for. But they are all asked to secure their firearms prior to seeing me. None have had objections to this after I explained the rationale. It's in their best interests clinically in addition to my concerns for my own personal safety.

 

[eli20]

The data doesn't back up the "good guy with a gun" thing at all. I'd think people who presumably value evidence would prefer a workable solution.

 

[vistaril]

The data doesn't back up the "good guy with a gun" thing at all. .

even if this is true(and it's really not), who cares? Gun rights aren't about that in the least. Even If guns haven't saved a single person or prevented a single crime from every occuring......who cares?? It is irrelevant to much of the discussion.

 

[eli20]

even if this is true(and it's really not), who cares? Gun rights aren't about that in the least. Even If guns haven't saved a single person or prevented a single crime from every occuring......who cares?? It is irrelevant to much of the discussion.

So the FBI is lying? What?

This is the argument many make in favor of concealed carry.

 

[vistaril]

So the FBI is lying? What?

This is the argument many make in favor of concealed carry.

Well I actually see it as an argument the left tries to create....most people like myself don't define the discussion in those ridiculous terms at all.

I follow gun control arguments with a chuckle but little else because they are so silly...I think this phony issue helps the gop a bit overall because the left has scared a small percentage of gun owners who might otherwise vote democrat into voting gop because of that issue. What the left doesn't seem to get is that it's possible for 9 people in a group of 10 to support something......but it still be bad electorally to push that if the 10th person's vote is the only one that will actually change because of that issue. Bill Clinton said this a few years ago but the dems didn't seem to listen.

But as I always say.....people who don't like guns are free to not buy or use them. More for the rest of us

 

[eli20]

Well I actually see it as an argument the left tries to create....most people like myself don't define the discussion in those ridiculous terms at all.

I follow gun control arguments with a chuckle but little else because they are so silly...I think this phony issue helps the gop a bit overall because the left has scared a small percentage of gun owners who might otherwise vote democrat into voting gop because of that issue. What the left doesn't seem to get is that it's possible for 9 people in a group of 10 to support something......but it still be bad electorally to push that if the 10th person's vote is the only one that will actually change because of that issue. Bill Clinton said this a few years ago but the dems didn't seem to listen.

But as I always say.....people who don't like guns are free to not buy or use them. More for the rest of us

Gun violence isn't a partisan issue. But I'm done here because the exchange and result is predictable.

 

[hamstergang]

even if this is true(and it's really not), who cares?

Because people die due to guns. That fact leads some to try to suggest that they really keep us safer, but the data doesn't back that up.

 

[FlowRate]

I can't imagine how knowing the patient sitting across from me is carrying a firearm wouldn't affect therapy. PE treatment for PTSD, psychodynamic psychotherapy, heck just about any therapy there are times when the intent is to challenge the patient and potentially induce short-term decompensation for long-term improvement. I wouldn't want to do that with someone armed.

Not in my office, thanks...

I should have been more clear: it's reasonable for PROVIDERS to CONCEALED carry. There's no way I'd be "encouraging" patients to bring weapons to their visits!

 

[erg923]

Why aren't we (Americans) as attached to others weapons? Knifes, ropes, brass knuckles, guillotine, hand-held grenades, etc? We have the right to bear these arms too.

It just strikes me that if there were tens of thousands of deaths each year with a laser pointer, we'd all (politicians included) be screaming for something to be done about these laser pointers. Would we not?

 

[WingedOx]

It just strikes me that if there were tens of thousands of deaths each year with a laser pointer, we'd all (politicians included) be screaming for something to be done about these laser pointers. Would we not?

Yes, we must defeat the laser pointer once and for all!

 

[OldPsychDoc]

A well regulated presentation being necessary to the intelligibility of a Lecture, the right of the People to keep and bear laser pointers shall not be infringed.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

I should have been more clear: it's reasonable for PROVIDERS to CONCEALED carry. There's no way I'd be "encouraging" patients to bring weapons to their visits!

How will you decide if an open-carrying visitor is a "good guy with a gun" or someone wanting to "resolve" a domestic incident or a dispute with a drug dealer/client?
I seriously don't see how it can be imagined that the presence of more (or any) weapons makes a hospital a safer place to provide care.

More interesting reading: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=2174624
https://sm.asisonline.org/Pages/Weapons-in-Hospitals.aspx
http://www.mprnews.org/story/2009/10/28/guns-psychiatric-hospitals

 

[FlowRate]

How will you decide if an open-carrying visitor is a "good guy with a gun"

Not sure if I was unclear that time: I am not advocating open carrying by anyone in the hospital. I totally respect the right of private hospitals to have a no weapons policy (at the very least for visitors and patients.)

To recap, I think that it is reasonable for psychiatrists to concealed carry handguns in outpatient clinic. It's not something I would personally do, but it's something I think we should be allowed to do.

As for making hospitals safer, I think it is safer to be able to defend onself, especially in hospitals without security (fully 7/8 psychiatric hospitals I interviewed at this season.)

Why aren't we (Americans) as attached to others weapons?

Because guns are what are in the media. Isn't it technically illegal for people to own bombs? Stabbings are not as common here as they are in isreal or the UK.

 

[Shikima]

How will you decide if an open-carrying visitor is a "good guy with a gun" or someone wanting to "resolve" a domestic incident or a dispute with a drug dealer/client?

"What evil lurks in the hearts of men? Only the shadow knows...."
Goes back to the earlier discussions of predicting crimes and intent while using a magic 8 ball.

 

[Wilf]

The data doesn't back up the "good guy with a gun" thing at all. I'd think people who presumably value evidence would prefer a workable solution.

What does that mean that the data doesn't back up the "good guy with a gun" thing? Vistaril just let that slide, but it might be important.

 

[TexasPhysician]

I am against open carry and quite pro-gun.

30.07 signs are posted in my clinic.

 

[deleted480308]

I am against open carry and quite pro-gun.

30.07 signs are posted in my clinic.

I'm pro open carry freedom, but don't personally think it's a choice I'd make

 

[NickNaylor]

We received e-mails at our institution reminding (or informing) the staff of the change in the Texas carry laws. FWIW, I have yet to see anyone open carry anywhere since the new law has entered effect. I think most folks that go through the effort of getting a LTC (license to carry) recognize that walking around with a gun clearly visible on your person isn't the wisest of decisions.

I'd be interested in the source for the OP's article as my understanding was that hospitals remain a gun-free zone, prohibiting any type of carry on hospital property. I'm confused as to why psychiatric hospitals would be excluded from that rule. The lack of any supporting evidence also makes me a big suspicious. Part of the aforementioned e-mail included a link to a video made by the hospital's chief of police stating that open carry in the areas surrounding the hospital is allowed but that carrying of any type into hospital buildings is emphatically not cool and would be met with a police response.

I have a handgun as well as a CHL/LTC. I don't carry currently as my weapon is too large to conceal comfortably, and while open carrying is now legal it's not something I would be comfortable with even if I did carry. I wouldn't want to be out in public and shouting to the world, "HEY I HAVE A GUN." Just not the perception I would want. Right now just about the only benefit I get with my CHL/LTC is that I don't have to wait for the staff at Bass Pro Shops to put a lock on my gun when I'm going to the range.

 

[FlowRate]

What does that mean that the data doesn't back up the "good guy with a gun" thing? Vistaril just let that slide, but it might be important.

There's a meme going around that touches on this:
300M (3E8) Americans
1.1 Guns : 1 Person in the United States
30k (3E4) Gun-related deaths
~10k Suicides
~2k "Gang-related Homicide"
Forget how many accidents.

That's less than 0.0001 (1E-4) deaths per gun in the United States per year.

12.8 M Concealed carry permit holders. In 2007, 722 firearm deaths from situations in which a concealed carry permit holder was involved (suicide, homicide, or being the victim of a homicide.) Rounding to 1k deaths, that means again approximately 0.0001 deaths per holder of a concealed carry permit per year. So you have a 1:10,000 annual risk of running into a CC holder who will be involved in a shooting at some time during that year. Seems like most of those guys (and gals) are at the very least not-bad-guys with a gun.

I think however you want to interpret the statistics is up to you. There are 250M registerred cars and in 2014 there were 33,000 deaths from car accidents. There are 16,000 deaths per year from prescription opiate overdose.

Then of course you have to wonder how many of the intentional homicides would not have happened simply because guns were / not available.

(Some numbers are rounded to one significant digit based on that single source, the numbers may be wrong but they seem to match up with other things I remember reading about the topic.)

 

[WingedOx]

We received e-mails at our institution reminding (or informing) the staff of the change in the Texas carry laws. FWIW, I have yet to see anyone open carry anywhere since the new law has entered effect. I think most folks that go through the effort of getting a LTC (license to carry) recognize that walking around with a gun clearly visible on your person isn't the wisest of decisions.

I'd be interested in the source for the OP's article as my understanding was that hospitals remain a gun-free zone, prohibiting any type of carry on hospital property. I'm confused as to why psychiatric hospitals would be excluded from that rule. The lack of any supporting evidence also makes me a big suspicious. Part of the aforementioned e-mail included a link to a video made by the hospital's chief of police stating that open carry in the areas surrounding the hospital is allowed but that carrying of any type into hospital buildings is emphatically not cool and would be met with a police response.

I have a handgun as well as a CHL/LTC. I don't carry currently as my weapon is too large to conceal comfortably, and while open carrying is now legal it's not something I would be comfortable with even if I did carry. I wouldn't want to be out in public and shouting to the world, "HEY I HAVE A GUN." Just not the perception I would want. Right now just about the only benefit I get with my CHL/LTC is that I don't have to wait for the staff at Bass Pro Shops to put a lock on my gun when I'm going to the range.

from what I've read it's the specific state-run psychiatric facilities only that are affected (so basically the places equivalent to Madden/Tinley/Read/Chester in IL) due to a quirk classifying them in the same distinction as any other state office facility.

 

[NickNaylor]

from what I've read it's the specific state-run psychiatric facilities only that are affected (so basically the places equivalent to Madden/Tinley/Read/Chester in IL) due to a quirk classifying them in the same distinction as any other state office facility.

That seems pretty idiotic.

 

[eli20]

What does that mean that the data doesn't back up the "good guy with a gun" thing? Vistaril just let that slide, but it might be important.

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...r-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013

 

[NickNaylor]

https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/20...r-incidents-in-the-u.s.-between-2000-and-2013

What is your point in posting this? All I see is that of the incidents analyzed 3.1% were ended by armed people that weren't LEOs. I don't think that says anything about the "good guy with a gun" mentality - good or bad. It's just an observed fact.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm pro open carry freedom, but don't personally think it's a choice I'd make

Same. I would not open carry at work.

I would like the option to keep a handgun in my office safe, by t'd be a cold day in hell before my employer (public uni AMC, pretty liberal city) would allow firearms on campus.

 

[deleted480308]

Same. I would not open carry at work.

I would like the option to keep a handgun in my office safe, by t'd be a cold day in hell before my employer (public uni AMC, pretty liberal city) would allow firearms on campus.

I know. It drives me nuts that my student status keeps me unarmed almost all the time right now

 

[HarryMTieboutMD]

One of my mentors from medical school is one of the world's most notable behavioral neurologists (learned from Norm Geschwind himself). I should ask him, if based on the right wing's reading of the second amendment, an ideology can cause a neglect syndrome in an entire group of people.

Anyway, I refuse to ever carry/own/fire a gun, and I would have no qualms about petitioning for a gun free zone with mandatory metal detectors/pat downs wherever I practice.

 

[eli20]

What is your point in posting this? All I see is that of the incidents analyzed 3.1% were ended by armed people that weren't LEOs. I don't think that says anything about the "good guy with a gun" mentality - good or bad. It's just an observed fact.

My point was someone asked for the data I was referencing so I gave it to them. Yeah it is an observed fact - obviously one can draw their own opinions about what it means. I already said I'm not participating in this thread anymore because I don't have the time to get into a pointless internet argument.

 

[NickNaylor]

My point was someone asked for the data I was referencing so I gave it to them. Yeah it is an observed fact - obviously one can draw their own opinions about what it means. I already said I'm not participating in this thread anymore because I don't have the time to get into a pointless internet argument.

But you said the "good guy with a gun mentality" was disproven by data but the data you cited doesn't really offer any insight into that conclusion...

 

[FlowRate]

One of my mentors from medical school is one of the world's most notable behavioral neurologists (learned from Norm Geschwind himself). I should ask him, if based on the right wing's reading of the second amendment, an ideology can cause a neglect syndrome in an entire group of people.

Anyway, I refuse to ever carry/own/fire a gun, and I would have no qualms about petitioning for a gun free zone with mandatory metal detectors/pat downs wherever I practice.

I believe this is what's called flame baiting.

 

[FlowRate]

But you said the "good guy with a gun mentality" was disproven by data but the data you cited doesn't really offer any insight into that conclusion...

Maybe my post was too wordy, but I think there's good data that "the guy with a gun" is most likely not a bad guy. Hard to prove or define the "good" guy hypothesis.

Edit: Sorry for double post.