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The 2012-2013 Underdog Thread

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical Osteopathic [ DO ]' started by TriagePreMed, May 7, 2012.

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  1. LPpostbacc

    LPpostbacc

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    Did something happen during that VR section? Such a wide disparity b/w the two science and VR sections...very odd.

    You figure that out and and you're a great md applicant!
  2. TopPops

    TopPops

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    I am definitely an under-big-huge-dog. Just wanna know what are my chances and which school should I apply to.

    MCAT: 9/6/8 - 23M
    GPA: 3.8
    Good ECs and research
    NY resident

    Thanks
  3. MedPR

    MedPR

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    Not an underdog. Your MCAT is average and your GPA is above average. The 5 might get you screened out of some, but not all.

    Ah yea. Quite a few schools have close to a 29 average, but a lot of schools are down at 23 too. I guess it depends where you're applying.

    Not an underdog.
  4. user3

    user3

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    NOT an underdog.

    You will be out of the running for some schools, but for others like (including but NOT limited to) KCUMB, VCOM, LMU, WVSOM, LECOM-E, WCU, PCOM-GA, PNWU (though some of these are regionally biased) and the new schools you would stand a chance. :thumbup:
  5. DrWily

    DrWily

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    This thread sucks to be honest. People posting their stats wanting to join underdog, and other people posting saying you're not an underdog. It has no discussion/encouragement/hope for one another. If someone feels like an underdog, why can't they join the thread? Obviously someone with 30+ MCAT and 4.0 GPA is trolling, but the guy above with a 23M MCAT is an underdog to me, even with a 3.8 GPA. That's a low MCAT by any standards and it's not guaranteed he will get in somewhere. A 6 in one section can ruin you depending on the school. I just feel disappointed coming into this thread.
  6. getoutofgrenada

    getoutofgrenada

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    :thumbup::thumbup:
  7. LPpostbacc

    LPpostbacc

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    I posted on this a few times (I've also fallen into a habit of critiquing a few that we're probably trolling anyway--shame on me).

    No one should be excluded. Copy the list, add your name, and paste it in a post. JUST THE LIST, though.
  8. dntke1518

    dntke1518

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    I second this (or third, whichever it is). To those of you who are wondering if you are an underdog or not, the general formula has been provided on the front page. If there is a certain red flag on your app that is an outlier that the score does not pick up (say high GPA, low MCAT) then maybe you are an underdog. But DrWily is right, this thread sucks, it has turned into a little "What Are My Chances" thread.
  9. LPpostbacc

    LPpostbacc

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    I think it seems this way now because everyone is in a holding pattern. All you can do is sit and think and wait and wait.....

    In 8-12 mo's when there are some success stories (and not), there will be more substantive content. In the meantime it's anxious babble.
  10. 411309

    411309 zzzz Gold Donor

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    This is just my opinion but if you have a gpa and/or mcat that's below average you're an underdog. If your gpa/mcat are both right around average then you are obviously not an underdog. You need those people with high gpas/low mcats and low gpas/jhigh mcats to give others an idea where they stand, There are some people on the list that prob don't belong there but I could def understand not feeling safe with a 23.
  11. drshark

    drshark

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    We definitely need a variety of underdog scores so that in the future when someone is applying, and they feel like a UD, they can find someone who was in a very similar situation score wise and see how their season went. If everyone is just low mcat and gpa, only a hand full of future applicants will be able to relate.
  12. TriagePreMed

    TriagePreMed Removed

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    Problem is some people think this is the "let me post my GPA/MCAT" thread and also people who are "I'm 3.8/29... I'm an underdog..."
  13. TriagePreMed

    TriagePreMed Removed

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    That's the entire point of the thread. It's not called the "Vanilla applicant thread" for a reason. Start a new thread called "Post your GPA/MCAT thread" if that's what you want.
  14. drshark

    drshark

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    That's not what I want, I'm saying the people with high gpa and low mcat or visa versa should be able to post here too ...
  15. TriagePreMed

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    I'm all for that if they are real underdogs, but even in the current list we have:

    vsuku; 3.51, 3.40 25 (10 PS, 7 VR, 8 BS)
    fluoropHore: 3.4, 3.3, 28Q

    These people are simply NOT underdogs. The majority of people criticized for not being underdogs are in the same boat. I mean, look at these guys. Above average in some areas but maybe -1 point from the average MCAT or 0.10 below GPA although +2 MCAT. This is all within the average range. People that keep saying this thread sucks can go ahead and make a new one where all GPA/MCAT are welcome, but honestly, we can't have an underdog thread that's simply catering to insecure people and trolls.
  16. drshark

    drshark

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    yea those people are average applicants to me... but i mean someone with a 3.8 and 23mcat or a 31 and a 2.9 I think should be on this thread so that future applicants in the same boat can have someone to relate to.
  17. HalfListic

    HalfListic _______________

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    I think this thread gains more utility later in the season when people can post their stats AND that they have interview invites/Acceptances.

    I agree that there are obvious non-underdogs, but as someone who has been rejected last season with an MCAT of 30R(10,10,10) and good ECs...poor GPA (or MCAT) alone can be enough to make you an underdog.

    If you want more out of this thread, I suggest looking back to last cycle and seeing if there are similar stats to yours, see what their experience was and hopefully be inspired.
  18. TriagePreMed

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    I would agree to that 3.8/23 and 2.9/31. Maybe it is that I haven't been too attentive to see times when legitimate underdogs get turned away.
  19. MedPR

    MedPR

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    Depends how low.



    +1. I think people are thinking "slightly below average" is the same thing as an underdog. For the sake of argument lets put the average matriculant at 3.5/27. To be an underdog I'd say you need to be at a 3.1/23 or worse. Someone with a 3.3/25 is below average and probably won't have a stack of acceptances, but they certainly are not an underdog. At least not in my opinion.
  20. NurWollen

    NurWollen The Tardigrade Emperor

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    I think part of the problem is that for a couple of years now, the underdog thread has been closely watched and appreciated by people with all sorts of stats. As people start their own applications, they naturally want to participate. I for one have been told that I'm not an underdog, despite my own feelings of inadequacy. We all have those. I'd be all for paring this thread down and keeping it pure, even if that eliminates me.
  21. TopPops

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    Sorry to cause you guys trouble but I am an underdog or not? I thought I am just because of 6 in VR and <24 MCAT. Even if I had a 24 i wouldnt consider myself underdog
  22. serenade

    serenade Medical Alchemist

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    You're uncompetitive if you're below average. You're an underdog if you're over a 1.5+ standard deviations from the mean LizzyM score.
  23. 411309

    411309 zzzz Gold Donor

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    I'm bad at math, but what would be over 1.5 SD from the lizzym? what lizzym score?
  24. serenade

    serenade Medical Alchemist

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    Who knows, the average SD for gpa is like .22 or .27 or something and the SD for Mcat around 3.5?. So I'll assume that a SD is 2.5-3.5. So a LizzyM of about lets say 55.5 ( 2 SD) and below is an underdog.
    Btw can one of you guys check my numbers? I'm away from my comp and don't have the DO stat book with me lol.
  25. TriagePreMed

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    Can we all come into agreement that to qualify as underdog status you need to have at least one of the three variables (cGPA/sGPA/MCAT) below 1 standard deviation per your race? Because if that's the case, we can make this objective. The link I provided with matriculation data says exactly what the SD for each variable is. Then nobody can be pissed here and nobody is seen as the guy turning away people?
  26. LPpostbacc

    LPpostbacc

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    I agree, TPM. And/or a total lizzym below a set point, I would use the modified number; including sgpa. I think that's a more representative picture of an applicant (not really sure why that wasn't included in the first place).
  27. LPpostbacc

    LPpostbacc

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    I'm removing myself from the list, too. Don't think I qualify. Good luck everyone.
  28. MedPR

    MedPR

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    I think a lot of us feel inadequate in one way or another. My stats at this point are 3.22/33, but I don't feel that much different from my former stats of 2.65/28.


    Sounds good to me. I don't know how to calculate SD, but if someone wants to plug in the numbers and give the cGPA/sGPA/MCAT numbers we can go from there.
  29. HalfListic

    HalfListic _______________

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    If it helps, those two stats are about as different as it gets when applying DO as you are. Your first set wouldn't even get you an interview most likely, while this years stats will get you accepted to almost any DO school. Good work on repair, and I think you should feel pretty good relatively speaking.
  30. angldrps

    angldrps

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    I completely agree with everything you have said. I remember feeling inspired/motivated when I would read previous years' UD thread. Now it has just become annoying as people are trying to set guidelines which one must adhere to in order to be part of the list. All those who are telling others that you are or are not an UD keep forgetting that its not just a stats game. One can have average or above average stats but still have number of other deficiencies in their app.

    Plus, If you see someone who you think is not an UD, then how hard is it to ignore that person on the list!! I guarantee you there are many others who want to know more about the journey of the people whom you think don't belong on the list. Look at previous UD list, it has many posters with average stats.
  31. yellowperil

    yellowperil

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    I am going to agree with this. If ANYONE feel that they are an underdog, they are welcome to post in this thread. Unless someone is way above the average, then I won't add the applicant to the list.
  32. angldrps

    angldrps

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    THANK YOU!! :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
  33. TriagePreMed

    TriagePreMed Removed

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    But then you're destroying the purpose of the thread being for underdogs. It's not an "average applicant" thread. Oh well, your thread, your call.
  34. 411309

    411309 zzzz Gold Donor

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    I think everyone here needs to exchange hugs. who wants my first hug?
  35. drshark

    drshark

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    :love::):luck:
  36. Iliketoytles

    Iliketoytles

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    I'm a little late for this, but: :thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

    Last year's thread was pretty encouraging for a lot of reasons. I wasn't an underdog, but I enjoyed going to that thread to be part of all the encouragement.

    Hopefully as the application cycle goes on, it'll be more supportive and less "here are my stats". It's probably because it's June and people are feeling anxious and nervous. Understandable, but remember what this thread is about: finding encouragement for yourself, and providing encouragement for others.

    Carry on, good folk. :)
  37. MedPR

    MedPR

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    me first.
  38. 411309

    411309 zzzz Gold Donor

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    new rule: if you're an underdog you get a goldstar by your name on the list. if you're a super underdog you get 2 gold stars. a mega underdog you get 3. and so on. most gold stars wins.

    medpr hugs arent free. ill take your mcat score pls
  39. angldrps

    angldrps

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    LOL. Good one!:laugh:
  40. MedPR

    MedPR

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    Did you get your score back yet?
  41. 411309

    411309 zzzz Gold Donor

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    10 days till the crying begins
  42. TwinsFan

    TwinsFan Class of 2018

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    Thought with all the debate maybe we should use this formula I came up with a while back. It is fairly reasonable and based on statistical data that is tough to dispute.



    cGPA * 10 + sGPA *10 + MCAT = applicant score

    3.43 * 10 + 3.33 * 10 + 25.66 = 93.3 average applicant

    3.49 * 10 + 3.41 * 10 + 26.48 = 95.5 average matriculant

    This is based on the observation that osteopathic schools seem be more holistic when evaluating applicants and a little less concerned with numbers, specifically MCAT scores, than their allopathic counterparts. This is shown by the larger percentile difference in MCAT scores (26.5 vs. 31.1) than GPA (3.49 vs. 3.67) It places equal weighting between science GPA, cumulative GPA and MCAT score.


    The following modification will be made to account for students who have a graduate degree in the natural sciences or have done a postbacc with 24 or more credit hours completed (one year full time) to account for the weighting of recent coursework in returning students.

    (cGPA + grad cGPA) * 5 + (sGPA + grad sGPA)*5 + MCAT = graduate student applicant score

    (cGPA + postbacc cGPA) * 5 + (sGPA + postbacc sGPA)*5 + MCAT = post bacc student applicant score


    To determine the criteria for an underdog we can utilize the 10th /90th percentile rule from the MSAR and apply it as +/- 1 std deviation, or the 16th / 84th percentile to keep the calculations simple. So the true underdog would have at least one of the three academic categories below the 16th percentile with the other two average or below as well. By using the cGPAas the statistical outlier, and probably the most common one for successful underdogs, we come up with the following score for an underdog:

    (3.49 - .26) * 10 + 3.41 * 10 + 26.48 = 92.9 underdog threshold

    (3.49 - .26) * 10 + (3.41 - .30) * 10 + (26.48 - 3.14) = 86.7 long shot


    However, outliers cause issues. A 3.6 cGPA, 3.5 sGPA with an 22 on the MCAT will be a underdog, but according to a simple formula it will compute as a competitive score. To combat this we will add several modifiers to compensate for people with unbalanced stats.

    -1 point MCAT overall 24
    -2 points MCAT overall 23
    -3 points MCAT overall 22
    -1.5 points Every section on the MCAT that scores a 7
    -3 points Every section on the MCAT that scores a 6
    -1 point cGPA 3.00-3.19
    -3 points cGPA 2.85 - 2.99
    -5 points cGPA 2.75 - 2.84
    -1 point sGPA 3.00-3.09
    -3 points sGPA 2.85 - 2.99
    -5 points sGPA 2.75 - 2.84


    Additional factors:
    MCAT overall scores < 22 will be screened out by nearly every school and will not be rated
    MCAT sectional scores < 6 will be screened out by nearly every school and will not be rated
    cGPA or sGPA < 2.75 will be screened out by nearly every school and will not be rated

    Finally, there is a large difference in the admission statistics between osteopathic schools, DMU has an average matriculant score over 100 while Pikeville is around 91. So a 3.2/3.1 with a 24 MCAT may be a big problem at one school and just fine at another.
  43. UrshumMurshum

    UrshumMurshum

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    I don't know about that, a member who called virtually every DO school said that most (with the exception of 4 schools) look only at the overall MCAT score.
  44. serenade

    serenade Medical Alchemist

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    This is quite through. To add more to your final point DO school stats ate bimodal, you have upper tier schools with 3.5-3.7/ 28 averages and a lot of schools with very low averages. Creating an average which is really means one is competitive for one group and not for the other. Though in my opinion someone 1SD below average is just uncompetitive, 2 SD or 1SD in more than 1 area is an underdog. But yes, great analysis.
  45. dntke1518

    dntke1518

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    This is pretty much what the lizzyM score is, which might not be the most up to date but, just a note. As far as sub section scores, as far as screening for below a 6 that should be a pretty good rule of thumb. If you think about it, a disproportionate sub section will raise a flag, period... doesn't matter if your composite score is ok, if you get an abnormally low sub section then they will have questions.
  46. HalfListic

    HalfListic _______________

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    ;)
    +1

    this was almost word for word stated by a visiting panel of Adcoms to my undergrad about a year ago. (I don't remember all the schools represented, but they were DO and no one disagreed when this was stated)


    Edit:

    Also, when we're talking about standard deviations, I think it good to remember that the second standard deviation from the mean is a LOT more significant that the first:

    http://www.regentsprep.org/Regents/math/algtrig/ATS2/normal67.gif

    So it may be more accurate to convert the applicant stats to a z-score to normalize the results?

    Im just bored on an EMT shift, so I might be over thinking this;)
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2012
  47. TwinsFan

    TwinsFan Class of 2018

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    I somewhat agree but at some point I think most of us would agree that uncompetitive is an underdog. We can't be so selective that only people with horrendous stats are "allowed" to be underdogs or so lax that every insecure premed is an underdog. That is what the "longshot" category is for. I don't think the point of this thread is to only see extreme outliers who are trying to gain admission. I see it a chance for fairly below to way below average applicants (stats-wise) to encourage one another, with hopefully some success stories along the way.


    Below average applicants are underdogs to some extent and this is reflected in the formula, where the score is a bit below the average applicant. It also seems true in a very simplistic common sense way...

    I.E. If 50% of the applicants are defined as below average and only 30-40% get accepted then you are probably going against the odds to gain admission when you are in the lower half of all applicants.

    Obviously how much of an underdog varies by school. But this is how it is for allo and osteo and a simple formula won't reflect this.
  48. MedPR

    MedPR

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    I'm surprised hwo low the average matriculant GPA is. I thought it was above a 3.6.
  49. LPpostbacc

    LPpostbacc

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    Ding Ding. +1 +1. Both Of Twin's posts.

    And I HATE the Twins!!
  50. TwinsFan

    TwinsFan Class of 2018

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    For several schools it is 3.6+, but there are also plenty of schools it is ~3.4 (new schools, regional ones with specific mission etc.). It averages out to about 3.5 (3.49). Keep in mind the process at DO schools tends to be more holistic and they take the low gpa students with a 3.7+ postbacc and quality clinical/life experiences that many MD schools miss.

    From the schools I've talked to and the age stats there are quite a few more non-trad DO students. This could drive down the averages a bit. I also got the impression that the cookie cutter premed with few ECs and slightly lower than MD stats isn't viewed as tremendously desirable unlike SDN's portrayal of osteo schools (at least on the allo forum). They tend to weight attributes other than stats very highly. My impression was that motivation for medicine/personality/life experiences etc were weighted as much as stats and much of the class was chosen based on the former as long as the stats showed they could succeed (good recent coursework and MCAT).

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