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The COMLEX Pass Rates and Scoring Average of Each School

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical Osteopathic [ DO ]' started by mandongo, Dec 17, 2008.

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  1. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    I interviewed at 5+ schools and never heard a number below 93%, I also never cared once because passing an exam is your own responsibility. I don't know where/what this 70% school is, but I'd say it was probably a new program and the students they accepted were the issue, not teaching during year 1/2 or perks like Kaplan access or weeks to study. I'll definitely bump this thread with my scores in 2 years ExPC. I stick by my statement ... I'm responsible for my own actions. It's like putting emphasis on a matchlist. It's up to you what you do. Should the 70% numbers be looked into?? Of course, this is unacceptable. However, there is not one single piece of evidence out there that says if a good student chooses to go to a 70% school vs a 90% school they are less likely to pass.
  2. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Also, PC, I just wanted to add that every school I visited openly shared their pass rate during the interview day. There was not one shred of mystery surrounding the pass rate number at a single school. So, anyone who was invited to interview and listened during a presentation should be fairly informed.
  3. exPCM

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    This is pure speculation from someone who has no data about the individual schools and the motivations/capabilities of their students in order to back up this claim.
    So along your line of thinking then there is no reason to not ace the COMLEX other than being unmotivated and not capable. I suggest you may want to rethink this attitude when you actually talk to and meet your fellow students whereever you end up. People will not be impressed by someone spouting off about how no capable person or motivated person should ever fail the COMLEX.
    There are definite tradeoffs in medical education. Some schools are more oriented toward preparing students for boards and others are more oriented toward preparing them for their clinical rotations (how to use a stethoscope, ophthalmoscope, do an H&P , etc.) with most schools having some combination of priorities. Every minute you spend learning/practicing to use an ophthalmoscope is a minute you do not have to spend preparing for the COMLEX Level 1 and/or USMLE Step 1 exams.
    If one school has students spend 1200 hours doing physical exams/H&Ps during the 1st two years and another school 200 hours the students from the first school effectively have 1000 hours less time to prepare and study material that is on the board exams.
    Believe it or not, a 1000 hours of prep time is significant.
    Good for you, then you should not need the 1000 hours more of prep time that some schools have.
    As for the matchlist - it does matter. If all of your rotations are at small community hospitals that are not affiliated with any residency programs then you really do not think it hinders your ability to get into a competitive residency. I suggest med school may be a waste of time for you since you seem to know it all already.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2009
  4. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    If it's pure speculation then what is your explanation??? Is the AOA to blame? The schools? What? You have just as much evidence for your claims??? Also, what evidence do you have that the schools with the lowest pass rates are the ones using the most time to train with 'ophthalmoscopes' or spending the most time on H&P? Did you attend these schools? Again, your evidence is just as flawed as mine. Also, you have absolutely NOOOO proof that these students would use the extra 1000 hours for board prep. None. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be an ass and obviously, obviously your knowledge is far above mine. I don't pretend to know more than you do, whatsoever and I do apologize if it comes off that way. However, your evidence for your claims is no better than mine.
  5. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Hahaha, dude you're starting to sound like a rogue, and frankly, it's killing your credibility. Also, if you look at any of my last posts, I give a disclaimer to each one: 'pre-med,' 'you know more than I do, obviously' etc. If you want to make valid points, please do. However, based on your posting history and your arguments in this forum, you seem like someone who is very upset with something (future of medicine, being a DO, your field, etc), and just looking for some anarchy.
  6. I am still trying to figure out what school it was that had a pass rate of 70%. Heck, what school has a current pass rate significantly below 90%?
  7. exPCM

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    You are the one making claims not me. I have shown actual graphs which show real differences which you claim are just due to unmotivated and incapable students. There are many alternative explantions. The data should be made available, published, and out in the open so that students can make their own judgements. I have not presented any "flawed evidence" - I am simply stating that there are significant differences between schools both in terms of scores and curriculum emphasis. These differences will matter to individual students to some degree.
  8. The data was 7 years old, who knows if these "real differences" still exist? I agree that the data should be published, but any hypotheses we come up with are pure speculation, and I am not really basing my school choice on it.

    Granted, if you tell me a school significantly below 90% in the pass rate, I would probably avoid it.
  9. exPCM

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    I do not care what your assessment is of my credibility. My purpose here is to try and give accurate information for students that was not available to me. The only thing I am upset with is students who think they know everything before they have even started medical school.
  10. exPCM

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    I know faculty members who have data (unpublished) that shows the differences absolutely still exist. I cannot prove it to your satisfaction since the AOA won't publish the data. So blame the AOA and AACOM for that. I am sure behind full disclosure of the data.
  11. JaggerPlate

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    You didn't respond to any of the previous questions I asked concerning the claims you made. If you don't want to play the game, then that is fine, but, again, if you keep parroting one 'claim,' I made, but do nothing to address the ten you made which I questioned, then there is no discussion. Unless you can explain:

    1. Where I can find the evidence (not that your nameless, unlabeled seven year old graphs weren't awesome) which states that lower pass rates are attributed to more time spent on clinical training (such as using an opthalmoscope).

    2. How you know that students with 1000 extra hours over the course of two years will use this time exclusively for standardized exam studying, and where this extra studying correlates to higher scores?

    3. The evidence that demonstrates the validity of matchlists in choosing a school, and that doing rotations at community hospitals reduces one's chances of landing a competitive residency.

    ... then I am done with this discussion. Frankly, I think you are here to stir things up, and I'm not interested in participating in this.
  12. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    That's acceptable in my book.
  13. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Haha, PC, you're killing me here man. I don't know how much clearer I can make it:


    Warning: I JaggerPlate, am a pre-medical student. I have never been to medical school. All claims I make are based upon my own beliefs and common sense. Having said that, I acknowledge that I do not know as much as medical student, interns, residents, and attendings. My opinions are just that - my opinions.

    Happy??? I seriously don't try to pretend to be anything I am not. I do my research and make informed opinions, but seriously never boast my knowledge over people who have been in the situation first hand. However, it is super annoying when instead of explaining why what I stated is incorrect based on your first hand knowledge people simply state ' you know nothing, ur a pre-med.' That does nothing.
  14. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Perfect. Sums everything up.
  15. JeetKuneDo

    JeetKuneDo

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    If I told you Western and CCOM, would you believe me? :D
  16. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Nope.
  17. ejay1518

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    Middle States Requirements of Affiliation and Standards for Accreditation:

    "information on institution-wide assessments available to prospective students, including graduation, retention, certification and licensing pass rates, and other outcomes as appropriate to the programs offered" - pg. 22

    -maybe this is only for new schools that have only preaccreditation.
  18. A little googlage got me this, feel free to add/change if you know I am wrong.

    KCOM 98%
    LECOM-B 100%
    LECOM-E 94%
    DMU: 96%
    NSU: 95%
    AZCOM 98%
    UNECOM 96%
    Tucom-CA 90%
    TCOM 99%
    CCOM 96%
    Western 95%
  19. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Great idea. Let's just keep trying to add until it's as complete as possible. Nice work.
  20. KCOM 98%
    LECOM-B 100%
    LECOM-E 94%
    DMU: 96%
    NSU: 95%
    AZCOM 98%
    UNECOM 96%
    Tucom-CA 90%
    TCOM 99%
    CCOM 96%
    Western 95%
    OSUCOM 98% average, could not find recent year data
  21. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Quote and add/fix:

    ATSU-KCOM: 98%
    ATSU-SOMA:
    AZCOM: 98%
    CCOM:96%
    DMU:96%
    GA- PCOM:
    KCUMB:
    LECOM-E: 94%
    LECOM-B: 100% (woot, woot)
    LMU-DCOM:
    MSUCOM:
    NSUCOM: 95%
    NYCOM:
    OSUCOM:
    OUCOM: 98% (average)
    PNWU-COM:
    PCOM -PA:
    PCSOM:
    RVUCOM:
    TU-NY:
    TU-MI: 90%
    TU-NV:
    UMDNJ:
    UNECOM: 96%
    TCOM: 99%
    VCOM:
    Western:95%
    WVCOM:
    WCUCOM: N/A (first available in 2012)
  22. Quote and add/fix:

    ATSU-KCOM: 98%
    ATSU-SOMA:
    AZCOM: 98%
    CCOM:96%
    DMU:96%
    GA- PCOM:
    KCUMB:
    LECOM-E: 94%
    LECOM-B: 100% (woot, woot)
    LMU-DCOM:
    MSUCOM:
    NSUCOM: 95%
    NYCOM:
    OSUCOM: 98% (average)
    OUCOM: 98% (average)
    PNWU-COM:
    PCOM -PA:
    PCSOM:
    RVUCOM:
    TU-NY:
    TU-MI: 90%
    TU-NV:
    UMDNJ:
    UNECOM: 96%
    TCOM: 99%
    VCOM:
    Western:95%
    WVCOM:
    WCUCOM: N/A (first available in 2012)

    High-five, Jagger
  23. JaggerPlate

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    Adding PCOM-GA (first class pass rate, couldn't find current data)

  24. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Adding, Touro-NY for c/o 2011 (Think we may have found the outlier)

  25. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Added LMU based upon information presented by a medical student. However, the official pass rate has not yet been released (take that as you will)

  26. Physio Doc 2 Be

    Physio Doc 2 Be Supratentorial problems

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    Dang you two for taking a thread headed for flame war land and making it useful.

    Way to turn that frown upside down.:laugh:

    :thumbup:
  27. matrica

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    I see numbers, but no idea where you got them from. This is actually from the MWU's website. It did not post 2009 scores. Can you guys actually post where your numbers from so I can assume they are legitimate.
    Thanks.
    LMU's scores are not released yet!!!

    Exam Period Number of Graduates Number of Graduates
    Who Took the Exam for the First Time
    Number of First-Time Test-Takers
    Who Passed the Exam
    Percentage of First-Time Test-Takers
    Who Passed the Exam
    Jan-Dec 2006 IL: 12
    AZ: 20 IL: 12
    AZ: 20 IL: 12
    AZ: 18 100%
    90% Jan-Dec 2007
    IL: 14
    AZ: 8 IL: 14
    AZ: 8 IL: 14
    AZ: 6 100%
    74% Jan-Dec 2008 IL: 24
    AZ: 16 IL: 24
    AZ: 16 IL: 22
    AZ: 15 92.%
    94% Total 94 94 87 91.67%
    Table don't show up, so here is the link:


    http://www.midwestern.edu/Programs_...py/National_Certification_Exam_Pass_Rate.html
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2009
  28. DO3

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    A VCOM student told me that they are given a pre-test. If someone does not pass a pre-test, they are not even allowed to take the COMLEX. That practice alone would skew their numbers. I guess you would have to ask what percentage of the class is even allowed to take the COMLEX before asking what percentage passed. I think giving students access to a pre-test is an outstanding idea, but I do not think that medical school administration should be deciding whether or not someone is allowed to take the COMLEX based solely on the pre-test score.

    And...a current LMU-DCOM student said that they were told by administration that the first time pass rate was 90-91% for their first class. That number does not include the students who passed on a subsequent attempt.
  29. JaggerPlate

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    I'm finding mine on SDN and sites through google. Sorry, I know it's not the most scientific method, and I should be including my sources, but just trying to round some rough ideas up there so people can get an idea.

    Also, those numbers are for Occupational Therapy???
  30. exPCM

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JaggerPlate
    ATSU-KCOM: 98%
    ATSU-SOMA:
    AZCOM: 98%
    CCOM:96%
    DMU:96%
    GA- PCOM:
    KCUMB:
    LECOM-E: 94%
    LECOM-B: 100% (woot, woot)
    LMU-DCOM:
    MSUCOM:
    NSUCOM: 95%
    NYCOM:
    OSUCOM: 98% (average)
    OUCOM: 98% (average)
    PNWU-COM:
    PCOM -PA:
    PCSOM:
    RVUCOM:
    TU-NY:
    TU-MI: 90%
    TU-NV:
    UMDNJ:
    UNECOM: 96%
    TCOM: 99%
    VCOM:
    Western:95%
    WVCOM:
    WCUCOM: N/A (first available in 2012)

    I posted real graphs and data in my earlier post from the AACOM annual meeting.
    The above data appears to be random web claims.
    Here is more real data:
    [​IMG]
    http://www.nbome.org/docs/NBOME Examiner.pdf
    Now how is it possible that every one of the numbers posted on this new list that has been generated is at or above the actual mean of 90% (2007-2008 1st time pass rate). Do you think that means that many of the remaining schools have 60% pass rates? Perhaps it might be because asking schools their pass rates is like trying to assess the average length of 1000 male physician's members via a survey instead of taking the actual measurements? I do not know the answer or what the actual situation is but again I think students paying big dollar med school tuition deserve to have the information for each school publicly released by the AACOM/NBOME/AOA instead of being buried as it is currently.
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2009
  31. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    I'm a bit confused .... We were compiling a list for COMLEX pass rate by school, not the national pass averages. Again, I also stated that our goal was to get a rough estimation of numbers from schools, and that the approach was unscientific to say the least. Also, a vast majority of the numbers aren't internet fluff, they are statistics given from admission offices, school representatives, etc (IE LECOM-B, KCOM, etc).

    Also, is this copyrighted/unreleased material that you are posting without permission??
  32. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Sorry, you added this last part after I had posted. The average this year is 91.5%. The average of the stats I had given was only 94%. Assuming that this sect is naturally skewed higher because (with the exception of NY), most of the scores that are easy to find are posted because they are high, then yes ... I definitely see how the culmination of the averages for the newest COMLEX pass rate add up to 91.5%.

    http://www.tunlive.com/groups/SOMA/Documents/SOMA Newsletter Vol 1 Issue 1.pdf
  33. exPCM

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    I gave a link to the data above. The numbers you are posting do not seem reality based as they are all at or above the national average. That is not statistically sensible unless all the remaining schools are significantly below the average. Why do you believe that schools do not have an incentive to buff their scores? Are the school representatives putting anything in writing?
    Do you buy a house for the asking price just because a homeowner says that is what it is worth or do you get an independent appraisal? I once met a representative from SGU who told me that his school had a 96% pass rate on USMLE Step 1. Should I believe him? Is one year really representative of a particular school or would you rather see several years of data?
  34. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    I wrote a little blurb above this post concerning some writing that you didn't initially post. May clear a few things up. Also, the SGU stat could be true because they hold tons, tons of people back from taking the boards. Furthermore, call me naive, but I tend to put more faith in the admission offices of non-profit, medical colleges, than I would into a swindler real-estate agent trying to sell me a house. Again, that could just be me. I think it's necessary to stay informed, and not to buy any magic beans, but still, going through your life 100% cynical and paranoid that everyone is trying to ream you up the arse is no way to live.
  35. exPCM

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    Good luck to you. Unfortunately some day you will realize that even the nonprofit schools are happy to take your tuition checks and laugh all the way to the bank as they are often used to support bloated faculty salaries like these: http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocuments/2008/231/355/2008-231355135-050db6d7-9.pdf
    Look carefully at pages 10 and 18. IMO it is a lead pipe cinch that the vast majority of these faculty members could never earn equivalent salaries working the same hours in private practice. However there are no worries when you just keep raising tuition to boost your salary. This is something that we physicians in private practice can't do: rake in big tuition dollars to support ourselves. Look at page 8: This one school is raking in over 60 million dollars per year in tuition - SWEET!
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2009
  36. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Thanks. However, I can't see the salaries you are referring to??
  37. JaggerPlate

    JaggerPlate

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    Sorry, just saw the salaries you were talking about ... I really don't think they are too absurd. Of the one's I looked at, seems like most of the deans, high up physicians, etc, got about 250k a year. These are talented, dedicated doctors, and it's really not unreasonable at all for a doc to earn this in private practices. Some derms make double that working 9-5 with no administrative headaches, teaching, etc. The only super bloated salary I saw was the 600k to the attorney, but then again, I'm not pre-law so I don't know anything about attorneys that represent an entire school/medical system, but my guess is that this guy is a big dog. Also, unless I am mistaken, this was a document from PCOM. PCOM??? Come on man. One of the oldest, most established medical schools in America??? I think you're reaching. Oh well, maybe we should all switch it up and work for the schools then!!

    ** note: that pdf was hard to load and I was only able to view pages 10 to about 15.
  38. bainrd

    bainrd

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    SOMA and KCUMB are added and Western is updated (for most recent test cycle).

    ATSU-KCOM: 98%
    ATSU-SOMA: 94% (July) 89% (Aug)
    AZCOM: 98%
    CCOM:96%
    DMU:96%
    GA- PCOM: 96%
    KCUMB: 98%
    LECOM-E: 94%
    LECOM-B: 100% (woot, woot)
    LMU-DCOM: 90 -91%
    MSUCOM:
    NSUCOM: 95%
    NYCOM:
    OSUCOM: 98% (average)
    OUCOM: 98% (average)
    PNWU-COM:
    PCOM -PA:
    PCSOM:
    RVUCOM:
    TU-NY: 78%
    TU-MI: 90%
    TU-NV:
    UMDNJ:
    UNECOM: 96%
    TCOM: 99%
    VCOM:
    Western: 98%
    WVCOM:
    WCUCOM: N/A (first available in 2012)
  39. Many of the averages are from previous cycles, or are averages from many cycles. Some of the information is 2nd hand from students interviewing, and I make no guarantees of how correct it is. I am thinking that it is pretty close though. I am not sure why you are trying to nay-say everything.

    Your data is also from 2008, and some of the data I collected was from years other than this because it was the only data available.

    I am not willing to post the references because I don't really feel like looking everything up again. Feel free to google it yourself. Until people start coming up with data that grossly conflicts with what is provided, I will believe the data provided is relatively accurate. Enough for a rough estimate at least.

    I typed in average for data which was stated as an average of multiple years.
  40. exPCM

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    So far the postings show 15 schools which are above the national average, 2 schools which are approximately at the national average, and only one school that is below the national average. Do you really believe that this is accurate?
    Did you ever take a statistics course in college?
  41. Data from 2008 for WV from students
  42. Do you ever take it easy? There are still ~10 schools left, and I just added another below average. Just because you get heads 15 times in a row does not mean a coin flip is anything other than a 50/50 shot. You would certainly think that schools with higher percentages make their data more accessible. Heard of self-selection?
  43. exPCM

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    Do you ever take it easy? No. And your surgery attendings likely won't take it easy either.

    I don't think you will find any data for RVU or PNWU either since they have not had students take COMLEX yet. So you only have seven schools left. Your coin flip analogy here frankly makes no sense. We are talking about an average pass rate of ~90% not about flipping coins. The table as it currently configured can not possibly pass the smell test.
  44. My analogy does make sense; I am saying that the remaining schools could all very well be under the average, who knows? Statistically ~ half the data points should be either above or below the mean, hence 50/50.

    The internet must be serious business.
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 13, 2009
  45. exPCM

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    Well per this allegedly accurate list ~15 schools are above the mean, ~2 are at the mean, ~2 are below the mean, and 7 are left (including MSU, PCOM, VCOM, UMDNJ - schools which are not likely to be below average) so hence it is not 50/50.
  46. Once again, we are giving a rough estimate based on multiple sources of data. Not to mention, a nation-wide COMLEX average of 91.5% cannot be compared to the mean of each individual school averaged together without normalizing the data points for class sizes. If you wanna do that, feel free.

    This is a foolish argument; if you think COMLEX averages are helpful, then the provided data are much more helpful than no data.
  47. exPCM

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    Actually your argument is foolish because inaccurate data is worse than no data.
    Do you think it is better to tell a patient that they have lung cancer when in fact they do not or to tell the patient you have no data one way or another? I believe in that case no data is certainly better than faulty data.
    Yes, you can try weighting by class size but I think it is unlikely to add much to this likely inaccurate data.
  48. ddiaz4

    ddiaz4

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Messages:
    49
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    SDN 2+ Year Member
    exPCM's argument :thumbup: makes sense I agree
  49. This is my last post in here for the night. Your hyperbolic comparison to lung cancer is just plain silly, this is not a life or death issue. I am simply giving the most commonly reported data for the schools in question, the accuracy of it is anyone's guess, but I tend to think that it will have a variance of 4-5% of the actual data. Someone has yes yet to come forward with contradicting data from an individual school.

    I have declared where I got the data (school websites, and info from the interview trail), and the sources could be questionable. Goodnight.
  50. beckhunter116

    beckhunter116

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2008
    Messages:
    945
    Location:
    South
    Status:
    Pre-Medical
    SDN 5+ Year Member
    I believe I read somewhere that USMLE has more focus on biochemistry.

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