The days of subsidized Stafford loans are over

[psychoandy]

so as a pharmacist, figure out how to become super rich [millionaire], or, make the avg. salary but have 10+ kids so they qualify as low-income and get free college money [one spouse will stay home to care for the kids].

having 10 kids is stupid. smarter would be start your own business, tax writeoffs ahoy. Romney didn't get to where he is now by paying himself a million dollar salary.

...or make sure your kids are smart and have good stats so they don't have to rely on need based aid and can rely solely on merit-based aid. this goes out the window for grad programs like MD/JD/MBA, but if undergrad is covered the debt is a lot easier to manage.

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[All4MyDaughter]

Russia? Sorry I forgot about them! lol...

Oh my god, really? You can't think of an Asian country with an enormous population where higher education is free? It's already been mentioned upthread.

 

[owlegrad]

So there are no poor kids at wake forest and duke?

Sure, poor kids can coast through Duke/Wake on Pell Grants, it's middle class kids that cannot afford to go there.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Sure, poor kids can coast through Duke/Wake on Pell Grants, it's middle class kids that cannot afford to go there.

The Pell Grant might not cover the full 40K tuition, but they can sell the free bags of cocaine they get from Medicaid to cover the rest of the cost. It's a good system, really. Plus, the free Medicaid Hummers and expensive watches they receive will help them blend in with the rest of the upper class people.

 

[cycloketocaine]

The Pell Grant might not cover the full 40K tuition, but they can sell the free bags of cocaine they get from Medicaid to cover the rest of the cost. It's a good system, really. Plus, the free Medicaid Hummers and expensive watches they receive will help them blend in with the rest of the upper class people.

I got spinner rims on my Escalade the other day and one of those Pimp My Ride 52 inch tvs installed in the back. Having babies and milking the state is the way to go, my friend.

 

[Its Z]

Sure, poor kids can coast through Duke/Wake on Pell Grants, it's middle class kids that cannot afford to go there.

I see. So there are no middle class kids at wake and duke.

 

[SHC1984]

Sure, poor kids can coast through Duke/Wake on Pell Grants, it's middle class kids that cannot afford to go there.

This is really true?

 

[BuffaloPills]

I spent some time at duke and other than the athletes I don't think I met one poor or middle class student there. They have serious money. I dont think poor people are using pell grants to attend duke.

It's more like the students that are poor, work hard or are exceptionally gifted and likely received a scholarship. The poor are not attending these uppity universities with government money, that argument is garbage. I'd go one further and say the middle class aren't attending with gov't funds either...undergrad loans are capped for every student, pell grants and tipp do not make up the remainder.

It's more likely the poor would waste gov't funds at state schools that are easy to get into not private universities...except university of Phoenix. All state universities should be free with a minimum high school academic record established, in my opinion.

 

[pharmasaur]

Yet we boast the best universities in the world where thousands of Chinese students eagerly come here to study...

That's true we have some of the best universities, but other large countries also have top universities. There are plenty of Chinese students coming to study at my random state school, they're not coming here for the EDUCATION (that's laughable) they're coming here for the "American dream". I'm sure the education they get at home is better but maybe it's more competitive to achieve something there. I would imagine the average Chinese engineer in China would be a superstar in the US, based on comparative math and science statistics.

I think it's well know the education system here is poor compared to other countries, we consistently score lower in math and reading tests. Even the undergraduate system is getting watered down to the point where we have to stay longer in school to learn the same thing. Reading "Dumbing Down our Kids". Kids graduating with high school diplomas can barely add or subtract (I know, I've tutored plenty of them). Why are we handing out diplomas like candy? In France, only top students move on to university level by passing an exam called the "bac"...if you can't pass it you can't go. I mean it makes sense, why would you go to university if you haven't developed academic knowledge at a certain level. Then you go to university and struggle. You can only do so much catching up. That's why we have huge college drop out rates.

 

[owlegrad]

This is really true?

Yes - there is nothing poor students cannot afford to do with government monies.

 

[pharmasaur]

Why didn't you go to your state school? My parents couldn't afford to send me to Duke or Wake Forest b/c there are 3 kids in my family and those schools cost around 40K a year!

I went to a public school that cost like 4K a year! UNC's tuition is around 4K or 5K a year...if you have gone to a public school your parents should be able to pay for that. Middle class families can't afford private schools or ivy leagues out of pocket, but public schools are very affordable.

I agree it is hardest for the middle class, but we just have to look for ways to conserve and save money (by going to public schools for one.)

I would have LOVE to attend Wake Forest or Duke for undergrad, but my family couldn't afford that out of pocket either! It is unfair b/c I got into Wake Forest AND Cornell!!!!!! I couldn't go b/c my family isn't rich enough!

I DID go to my state school. Lol. I got into some UC's but didn't go because I didn't wanna be 80K+ in debt for undergrad. I had a 3.9 gpa when I graduated from high school too. Why do students like me have to go to ****ty schools to save money? Another reason why I even take so many units is to stay challenged.

 

[pharmasaur]

And for everyone making fun of Pell grants, yes they only cover a certain amount. But in my home state of California we have cal grants that cover a lot more. And then usually you get scholarships on top of that, that you don't apply for and are just given because of your financial status. I know people (like my roommate) who had their whole cost of attendance covered and got spending money back because like we said the cost of attendance is SUPER elevated. I'm saying this to illustrate that if you get pell grants you most likely get a lot of other aid too.

 

[xiphoid2010]

That's true we have some of the best universities, but other large countries also have top universities. There are plenty of Chinese students coming to study at my random state school, they're not coming here for the EDUCATION (that's laughable) they're coming here for the "American dream". I'm sure the education they get at home is better but maybe it's more competitive to achieve something there. I would imagine the average Chinese engineer in China would be a superstar in the US, based on comparative math and science statistics.

I think it's well know the education system here is poor compared to other countries, we consistently score lower in math and reading tests. Even the undergraduate system is getting watered down to the point where we have to stay longer in school to learn the same thing. Reading "Dumbing Down our Kids". Kids graduating with high school diplomas can barely add or subtract (I know, I've tutored plenty of them). Why are we handing out diplomas like candy? In France, only top students move on to university level by passing an exam called the "bac"...if you can't pass it you can't go. I mean it makes sense, why would you go to university if you haven't developed academic knowledge at a certain level. Then you go to university and struggle. You can only do so much catching up. That's why we have huge college drop out rates.

+ 1

But anyone who says we can learn something from a foreign systems or implement a more rigorous college entrance system is likely to branded as a Nazi.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

+ 1

But anyone who says we can learn something from a foreign systems or implement a more rigorous college entrance system is likely to branded as a Nazi.

Oh, get off the cross. He was referencing the Soup Nazi. And I know you are familiar with it because I've seen you make the same reference.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Oh, get off the cross. He was referencing the Soup Nazi. And I know you are familiar with it because I've seen you make the same reference.

I don't see soup mentioned anywhere in his original post. Trying to attack an opponent personally as being somekind of Nazi is a common debating tactic.

But that's all besides the point. People need to focus on the issue rather than getting side tracked by the insults.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Massive student loan debt at least provides opportunity to many not necessarily top performing students to attain education otherwise would not be available in meritocracy. To eliminate education debt by voiding educational opportunities is one of the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Don't get into debt....so no college for you. You're an education nazi

Exactly. You can't defend supporting elimination of education opportunity to prevent education debt. Just say your opinion was wrong and move on.

And obviously you completely missed my analogy of soup kitchen nazi no soup for you to education nazi saying no education for you.

I don't see soup mentioned anywhere in his original post. Trying to attack an opponent personally as being somekind of Nazi is a common debating tactic.

But that's all besides the point. People need to focus on the issue rather than getting side tracked by the insults.

Aw, he said you were an education nazi... so soup wouln't be relevant, would it? Pretty obvious, IMO. And it's funny that you want everyone else to get back on track when you're focusing on being hurt/upset over imagined insults.

It's ok that you missed the cultural reference. It's funny, actually.

 

[xiphoid2010]

Aw, he said you were an education nazi... so soup wouln't be relevant, would it? Pretty obvious, IMO. And it's funny that you want everyone else to get back on track when you're focusing on being hurt/upset over imagined insults.

It's ok that you missed the cultural reference. It's funny, actually.

Didnt see his 2nd post. But like I said, it's irrelevant to the argument. I have been advocating people need to stick to the issue rather than the rhetoric since page 1. So can we get back on topic?

 

[Its Z]

So no college education for average and below to prevent education debt. Right?

 

[xiphoid2010]

So no college education for average and below to prevent education debt. Right?

Nope. Read my original post. I personally like the traditional Chinese system, but I also said even though it works it's not very nice (as in kind hearted).

I'm fully aware that it's unlikely washington would adopt a pure merit based, or any harsh, system. But even a hybrid system based on both US and Chinese methods would produce a major improvement in the cost-effectiveness.

 

[pharmasaur]

So no college education for average and below to prevent education debt. Right?

Not so much about the debt anymore...more about the quality of the degree. More like let's stop passing kids on grade after grade, just to make them feel good that they're moving up, when really they haven't learned to add yet, they keep shuffling through the system, getting diplomas....soon slash now people are graduating with bachelor's degrees and still have poor writing skills and lack basic math skills. I tutored a student who was awkwardly my age yet getting a master's in Clinical Psych on how to write essays...she was horrible. Not only poor grammar and spelling but lack of coherence in essay structure. I also tutored another woman getting a master's in social work from a reputable school here in So Cal (3 guesses which one) and she was also a horrible writer. I'm not looking for a journalist, but someone who can put a sentence together. The trend is clear. We're too softie as a culture to hold students back. You can fail tests but pass by with C's with extra credit and BS homework assignments. You learn how to push papers but there is no CRITICAL THINKING. How many of you out there with hiring authority run into students with high grades but don't know how to think? Who literally have learned nothing? That's why. We have 4.5+ GPA's now in high school. WTF is that. It's GRADE INFLATION. My parents came from another country where an A is AMAZING, like one or two people in the class get an A, B is given to an additional few, rest get Cs or below. Over here everyone get's A's and B's. I've gotten A's in classes without even learning a single thing as I'm sure all of you have had too. That's how a lot of people skimp through high school and get a diploma. Everyone knows what a high school diploma meant 20-30 years ago. it was the BA of the day. Now a BA is starting to turn into chit and students are going for Master's....just keep shuffling through the system...handing out degrees like candy, so politicians can say look at the percentage of our students that graduate! Take that China and Europe! Then we consider the real thing, the math and science and writing scores, suddenly the politicians dissappear and start touting another horn.

 

[Dr Wario]

I think it is really sad how this debate mirrors that in Washington, to the point where we have a hybrid system that selects the worst from each side. On one hand, had we not implemented government backed student loans and subsidies, tuition would likely be much less expensive due to a shifting of the supply/demand curve. On the other hand, if we offered a universally free education based somewhat on merit, we could eliminate much of the inefficiency we currently experience.

Instead, what we actually do is a choose the most harmful aspects of each system and coalesce them into a endless supply of massive profit for those insidious enough to take massive risks with other people's money. Think about the real reason the housing bubble occurred, banks undertook risks with money that was ultimately backed by the government (exemplified by bailouts), thus had no incentive to be conservative and responsible. The same thing happens with higher education, universities accumulate massive profits because students have access to almost unlimited pools of money provided by the taxpayers, thus can charge ever increasing tuition without demand slipping.

I weep for this country because we could truly have it all with our bountiful natural resources, intellectual prowess and a highly leveraged workforce due to due to unmatched capitalization. Instead we spend our time calling each other nazis and socialists, with our rising debt and crumbling government, we will truly become the insults.

 

[xiphoid2010]

I think it is really sad how this debate mirrors that in Washington, to the point where we have a hybrid system that selects the worst from each side. On one hand, had we not implemented government backed student loans and subsidies, tuition would likely be much less expensive due to a shifting of the supply/demand curve. On the other hand, if we offered a universally free education based somewhat on merit, we could eliminate much of the inefficiency we currently experience.

Instead, what we actually do is a choose the most harmful aspects of each system and coalesce them into a endless supply of massive profit for those insidious enough to take massive risks with other people's money. Think about the real reason the housing bubble occurred, banks undertook risks with money that was ultimately backed by the government (exemplified by bailouts), thus had no incentive to be conservative and responsible. The same thing happens with higher education, universities accumulate massive profits because students have access to almost unlimited pools of money provided by the taxpayers, thus can charge ever increasing tuition without demand slipping.

I weep for this country because we could truly have it all with our bountiful natural resources, intellectual prowess and a highly leveraged workforce due to due to unmatched capitalization. Instead we spend our time calling each other nazis and socialists, with our rising debt and crumbling government, we will truly become the insults.

Amen! well said.

 

[owlegrad]

I find this post insightful. I don't agree with it exactly, but you make some excellent points.

I think it is really sad how this debate mirrors that in Washington, to the point where we have a hybrid system that selects the worst from each side. On one hand, had we not implemented government backed student loans and subsidies, tuition would likely be much less expensive due to a shifting of the supply/demand curve. On the other hand, if we offered a universally free education based somewhat on merit, we could eliminate much of the inefficiency we currently experience.

Instead, what we actually do is a choose the most harmful aspects of each system and coalesce them into a endless supply of massive profit for those insidious enough to take massive risks with other people's money. Think about the real reason the housing bubble occurred, banks undertook risks with money that was ultimately backed by the government (exemplified by bailouts), thus had no incentive to be conservative and responsible. The same thing happens with higher education, universities accumulate massive profits because students have access to almost unlimited pools of money provided by the taxpayers, thus can charge ever increasing tuition without demand slipping.

I weep for this country because we could truly have it all with our bountiful natural resources, intellectual prowess and a highly leveraged workforce due to due to unmatched capitalization. Instead we spend our time calling each other nazis and socialists, with our rising debt and crumbling government, we will truly become the insults.

 

[babybull]

I think it is really sad how this debate mirrors that in Washington, to the point where we have a hybrid system that selects the worst from each side. On one hand, had we not implemented government backed student loans and subsidies, tuition would likely be much less expensive due to a shifting of the supply/demand curve. On the other hand, if we offered a universally free education based somewhat on merit, we could eliminate much of the inefficiency we currently experience.

Instead, what we actually do is a choose the most harmful aspects of each system and coalesce them into a endless supply of massive profit for those insidious enough to take massive risks with other people's money. Think about the real reason the housing bubble occurred, banks undertook risks with money that was ultimately backed by the government (exemplified by bailouts), thus had no incentive to be conservative and responsible. The same thing happens with higher education, universities accumulate massive profits because students have access to almost unlimited pools of money provided by the taxpayers, thus can charge ever increasing tuition without demand slipping.

I weep for this country because we could truly have it all with our bountiful natural resources, intellectual prowess and a highly leveraged workforce due to due to unmatched capitalization. Instead we spend our time calling each other nazis and socialists, with our rising debt and crumbling government, we will truly become the insults.

i like it

 

[Ackj]

Except for...you know...the LARGEST Asian country.

Oh my god, really? You can't think of an Asian country with an enormous population where higher education is free? It's already been mentioned upthread.

Umm... she got it right. Largest country in the world is Russia.

 

[owlegrad]

Russia is an Asian Country?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Umm... she got it right. Largest country in the world is Russia.

I think it's more than obvious that I'm referring to a different country. And Russia might be the largest geographically, but it's not the most populous. In Asia or in the world.

Russia is an Asian Country?

Part of Russia is on the Asian subcontinent. But culturally/politically, Russia is more aligned with Europe. The political/cultural/economic center of Russia is in Europe.

 

[pharmasaur]

I think it is really sad how this debate mirrors that in Washington, to the point where we have a hybrid system that selects the worst from each side. On one hand, had we not implemented government backed student loans and subsidies, tuition would likely be much less expensive due to a shifting of the supply/demand curve. On the other hand, if we offered a universally free education based somewhat on merit, we could eliminate much of the inefficiency we currently experience.

Instead, what we actually do is a choose the most harmful aspects of each system and coalesce them into a endless supply of massive profit for those insidious enough to take massive risks with other people's money. Think about the real reason the housing bubble occurred, banks undertook risks with money that was ultimately backed by the government (exemplified by bailouts), thus had no incentive to be conservative and responsible. The same thing happens with higher education, universities accumulate massive profits because students have access to almost unlimited pools of money provided by the taxpayers, thus can charge ever increasing tuition without demand slipping.

I weep for this country because we could truly have it all with our bountiful natural resources, intellectual prowess and a highly leveraged workforce due to due to unmatched capitalization. Instead we spend our time calling each other nazis and socialists, with our rising debt and crumbling government, we will truly become the insults.

So basically as our economy slowly starts to crawl out of the ICU it's gonna get another hit from the massive student loan defaults. Great

 

[SHC1984]

I think it is really sad how this debate mirrors that in Washington, to the point where we have a hybrid system that selects the worst from each side. On one hand, had we not implemented government backed student loans and subsidies, tuition would likely be much less expensive due to a shifting of the supply/demand curve. On the other hand, if we offered a universally free education based somewhat on merit, we could eliminate much of the inefficiency we currently experience.

Instead, what we actually do is a choose the most harmful aspects of each system and coalesce them into a endless supply of massive profit for those insidious enough to take massive risks with other people's money. Think about the real reason the housing bubble occurred, banks undertook risks with money that was ultimately backed by the government (exemplified by bailouts), thus had no incentive to be conservative and responsible. The same thing happens with higher education, universities accumulate massive profits because students have access to almost unlimited pools of money provided by the taxpayers, thus can charge ever increasing tuition without demand slipping.

I weep for this country because we could truly have it all with our bountiful natural resources, intellectual prowess and a highly leveraged workforce due to due to unmatched capitalization. Instead we spend our time calling each other nazis and socialists, with our rising debt and crumbling government, we will truly become the insults.

I agree with this. A lot of people are better off not going to college and going straight to the workforce. There is nothing wrong with that....there are people that never went to college and still make more money then anyone here will ever make in their lifetime. College education doesn't guarantee anything.

Giving out student loans so easily is a huge mistake. Just like many other free handouts given in this country (but I will NOT name them all since some folks here disagree. LOL) There is a reason why the USA is in so much debt while no other country is...b/c they actually expect their citizens to work for themselves and not give out everything for free. Why would anyone want to work if everything is given out for free? Heck if I can't find a job when I graduate I guess I am still saved I can just go on government funding for the rest of my life! Why worry? why work?

 

[SHC1984]

I think it's more than obvious that I'm referring to a different country. And Russia might be the largest geographically, but it's not the most populous. In Asia or in the world.




Part of Russia is on the Asian subcontinent. But culturally/politically, Russia is more aligned with Europe. The political/cultural/economic center of Russia is in Europe.

China? I didn't read this thread entirely but I saw someone mention China only offers free college education to the TOP students and not everyone.

The point is A COST EFFECTIVE way has to be put out so that this country doesn't get into even more debt in the future.

The solution to this country's problem has always been..."Okay, lets give out MORE free handouts. People don't want to work? People don't want to pay for their own college education? NO problem..we will just take out another 10000 trillion dollars in debt and pay for it! No biggie...we can take out as much debt as possible!"

 

[type b pharmD]

I agree with this. A lot of people are better off not going to college and going straight to the workforce. There is nothing wrong with that....there are people that never went to college and still make more money then anyone here will ever make in their lifetime. College education doesn't guarantee anything.

Giving out student loans so easily is a huge mistake. Just like many other free handouts given in this country (but I will NOT name them all since some folks here disagree. LOL) There is a reason why the USA is in so much debt while no other country is...b/c they actually expect their citizens to work for themselves and not give out everything for free. Why would anyone want to work if everything is given out for free? Heck if I can't find a job when I graduate I guess I am still saved I can just go on government funding for the rest of my life! Why worry? why work?

Yeah.. the US is in debt while no other country is. And it's because the US is famous for giving more handouts than anyone else.

Yep..

Sometimes I wonder if SHC has any clue about anything

 

[SHC1984]

Yeah.. the US is in debt while no other country is. And it's because the US is famous for giving more handouts than anyone else.

Yep..

Sometimes I wonder if SHC has any clue about anything

Name ONE country that is in more debt then the USA.

 

[type b pharmD]

Name ONE country that is in more debt then the USA.

Name ONE legitimate reason why debt in absolute terms has any significant international comparative value.

 

[SHC1984]

Name ONE legitimate reason why debt in absolute terms has any significant international comparative value.

I guess you can't name any countries, so I don't see how I am wrong. The USA does give out tons of free handouts and that's why they are in TRILLIONS of dollars in debt. Like Wario mentioned that's how it is.

Yes, a few other countries have debt but NO WHERE near the USA's amount. That's a fact I don't see whats so hard to understand about it. Give out free handouts = high debt and lazy citizens.

I am not going to turn this into a judgement debate, so I haven't mention anything that is wrong or right...just the fact that the USA give out tons of free handouts (a fact) so they are in trillons of dollars in debt (also a fact).

 

[owlegrad]

Someone call Greece and let them know their debt is not so bad after all.

 

[rxlea]

Someone call Greece and let them know their debt is not so bad after all.

I lol'd

 

[Yazdi990]

I guess you can't name any countries, so I don't see how I am wrong. The USA does give out tons of free handouts and that's why they are in TRILLIONS of dollars in debt. Like Wario mentioned that's how it is.

Yes, a few other countries have debt but NO WHERE near the USA's amount. That's a fact I don't see whats so hard to understand about it. Give out free handouts = high debt and lazy citizens.

I am not going to turn this into a judgement debate, so I haven't mention anything that is wrong or right...just the fact that the USA give out tons of free handouts (a fact) so they are in trillons of dollars in debt (also a fact).

you can't compare the debt of one country to another

the US is one of the most populated countries in the world. just based off of that alone, it makes more sense for the US to have a high debt. Also, we have been in a war for the past years. a significant part of our debt is due to that.

in order for your argument to hold true, you would have to assume that most of the US's debt is due to handouts and government loans.

 

[owlegrad]

Anyone care to guess what percent of the federal budget is used for need-based aid? Anyone?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Anyone care to guess what percent of the federal budget is used for need-based aid? Anyone?

I'm sure it's either:

A. 99.999999999999999999999%
B. 100%
C. 1000000000000%
D. All of the above

 

[xiphoid2010]

There seems to be some confusion about chinese higher education. The current system is a "dual-track" system.

One track is the traditional system, a straight merit based one. The country had to get the most out of a small buget with a massive population. So the system only took the above average students on up, and given free higher education.

The new track is the self-pay one. Provides opportunities to those that can't make the cut-off. But many parents slave away in sweat shops to put kids through college, and the self pay track now grew to something like 2/3 of the enrollment.

Who's left out is obvious... Pretty harsh, I wouldn't want us to go thaaaat far.

 

[Shnurek]

This is insane! Where is this country going to? College tuition is so ridiculously expensive even at state schools... it sucks they're depriving us of opportunities to receive those loans. I think I'll be living under a bridge after graduation.

They should eliminate all loans for everything. What do you think got us in the recession? *****s who didn't know how to manage their finances and couldn't pay back loans. Let people save first, then spend. Instead of spend first then pay slave loans.