The future of academia

[WhtsThFrequency]

This is something that I've been kicking around in my head for a while. Kind of a spin-off of the debt thread.

After our current teaching/clinical faculty at vet schools retire....who will replace them?

Think about it. The VAST majority of clinicians at many institutions have at least a residency and more often than not a PhD under their belt. Almost every position in academia, even assistant professorship, requires 1-2 advanced degrees beyond DVM. While internships are becoming quite common, residencies are still pretty low. And lord knows those of us in residency aren't super happy about essentially being required to pursue PhDs just o be eligible for faculty positions at teaching hospitals, even if we like research and want to have it as a part of our career.

Even those of us who are going into private practice right after school are worried about tremendous debt.

What about those of us who have the goal of eventually teaching and working in academia, teaching new veterinarians? Watching our initial 140k debt (just using me as an example) balloon to over 200k simply because we cannot afford to pay more than a tiny bit of the interest on our loans for 3+ years of residency and then 4+ more of PhD, getting paid only in the 30-40k range for either? Now, I like research. Don't get me wrong. I plan to pursue a PhD so I can eventually go into academia. But the debt issue is very worrisome.

Where will our new generation of faculty come from if it becomes financially impossible to meet the requirements imposed by such positions (ie people refuse to/cannot due to time/money get those extra degrees)?

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[DjIL]

This is something that I've been kicking around in my head for a while. Kind of a spin-off of the debt thread.

After our current teaching/clinical faculty at vet schools retire....who will replace them?

Think about it. The VAST majority of clinicians at many institutions have at least a residency and more often than not a PhD under their belt. Almost every position in academia, even assistant professorship, requires 1-2 advanced degrees beyond DVM. While internships are becoming quite common, residencies are still pretty low. And lord knows those of us in residency aren't super happy about essentially being required to pursue PhDs just o be eligible for faculty positions at teaching hospitals, even if we like research and want to have it as a part of our career.

Even those of us who are going into private practice right after school are worried about tremendous debt.

What about those of us who have the goal of eventually teaching and working in academia, teaching new veterinarians?Watching our initial 140k debt (just using me as an example) balloon to over 200k simply because we cannot afford to pay more than a tiny bit of the interest on our loans for 3+ years of residency and then 4+ more of PhD, getting paid only in the 30-40k range for either? Now, I like research. Don't get me wrong. I plan to pursue a PhD so I can eventually go into academia. But the debt issue is very worrisome.

Where will our new generation of faculty come from if it becomes financially impossible to meet the requirements imposed by such positions (ie people refuse to/cannot due to time/money get those extra degrees)?

GREAT topic and you've asked some crucial questions here. I am also open to a career in teaching after getting a DVM and I would be interested in the answers to these questions as well.

I know some jobs offer to pay for your MS or PhD, I just heard this referenced on the Uncommon Vet podcast. However, this is probably not a frequent enough occurrence to make a dent in the future need for academics.

 

[Frozenshades]

Almost every position in academia, even assistant professorship, requires 1-2 advanced degrees beyond DVM.

I'm not saying this isn't true, but I also know several faculty at the CVM here that only have one higher level degree, either a DVM or PhD. What do you make of that? A sign that it's still possible? A rare exception? Or remnants of a now antiquated system and something that the younger generation of students is incapable of doing?


Great topic might I add, this should be an interesting discussion.

 

[PetPony]

I'm not saying this isn't true, but I also know several faculty at the CVM here that only have one higher level degree, either a DVM or PhD. What do you make of that? A sign that it's still possible? A rare exception? Or remnants of a now antiquated system and something that the younger generation of students is incapable of doing?


Great topic might I add, this should be an interesting discussion.

The ones I've talked to here said it's very rare..

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

GREAT topic and you've asked some crucial questions here. I am also open to a career in teaching after getting a DVM and I would be interested in the answers to these questions as well.

I know some jobs offer to pay for your MS or PhD, I just heard this referenced on the Uncommon Vet podcast. However, this is probably not a frequent enough occurrence to make a dent in the future need for academics.

Some jobs will pay, but it's kinda rare. Usually it is in the context of a combined residency program (residency+ PhD). Most schools will "pay" for you for MS or PhD in the hard sciences just like any other PhD if you enter into grad school independently after residency- however, the pay is usually only between 25-30k for a PhD (if that). You really can't attack your loans at all on that. There are rare NIH supported PhDs that pay 40-46k or so for people that have completed residencies (which pay around 30k themselves). Luckily I have gotten one of those and am considering trying to pay interest.

Problem is, my IBR would be almost $400/mo on my PhD salary. That's $4,800 a year and only barely covers the interest. My IBR would be $820/month f I decided to file jointly with my fiance after we are married and he earned a similar salary Which I think is utter crap because I don't expect him to pay my loans for me, even if we DO get some benefits for filing jointly.

I'm not saying this isn't true, but I also know several faculty at the CVM here that only have one higher level degree, either a DVM or PhD. What do you make of that? A sign that it's still possible? A rare exception? Or remnants of a now antiquated system and something that the younger generation of students is incapable of doing?


Great topic might I add, this should be an interesting discussion.

They have likely done a residency, though. But yes, I see what you are saying. It IS still possible to get into academia without a PhD...but I have a feeling it is becoming the exception. One of my bosses has a DVM and a residency but no PhD, but he is one of the few and always says he wishes he had gotten one because it would have given him more mobility and made it easier to get the job that he has. If you don't have those extra letters after your name, you had better have AMAZING networking skills, a lot of publications, etc.

 

[cowgirla]

I'm not saying this isn't true, but I also know several faculty at the CVM here that only have one higher level degree, either a DVM or PhD. What do you make of that? A sign that it's still possible? A rare exception? Or remnants of a now antiquated system and something that the younger generation of students is incapable of doing?


Great topic might I add, this should be an interesting discussion.

We have a few of those as well. Heck, our former dean is "only" a DVM. I think its a pretty rare exception, though.

Although honestly, if more and more the current people are retiring and there aren't as many diplomates/duals to take their place, maybe it will become more common? Or maybe academia will start having more perks/better salary to attract people.

 

[Lupin21]

This topic is quite true to me as well. I plan on applying for the PhD program at OK State in my second year with the knowledge that I would like to be a professor to future vets as well. This will mean that I don't graduate with my class and take a year for research and thesis writing before fourth year, but I won't have to do the 4 years after 4 years business. This is going to be a considerable chunk of loan for me. I too would like to start out with my own practice and switch to teaching in my later years. I'm hoping that within the next 10years, all of us can come together with a plan to fix some of these current crises and educate the public as to the real profession of Veterinary Medicine. I think is is going to be up to current grads, students and the next few classes to get the ball rolling. These discussions are at least a start.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think it's also very school dependent. There are schools that tend to be more clinically oriented than research. For example, it seems like DVM/PhD's are the exception rather than the rule at Tufts, and I would imagine that to be the case with at least a few other schools. Maybe that will be more common if the current trend keeps up. But I know what you mean, I was kinda floored when I started at CSU and there were so many DVM/PhD's floating around the teaching hospital. When I found out my research mentor's salary, my jaw dropped. I figured with a board certification & PhD, they'd pay her a decent wage. But no! If I remember correctly it was lower than that for the average GP. No way in hell
I would be able to go through all those extra years of training on a piss poor resident/grad-student pay and pay my loans after that...

 

[Frozenshades]

We have a few of those as well. Heck, our former dean is "only" a DVM. I think its a pretty rare exception, though.

Although honestly, if more and more the current people are retiring and there aren't as many diplomates/duals to take their place, maybe it will become more common? Or maybe academia will start having more perks/better salary to attract people.

I hope so. Pay can't keep falling or stay at a constant low, while time and expenditures necessary to meet the requirements for the job continue to rise; seems to be an unsustainable trend. I know people are willing to make big sacrifices to climb the ladder in academia (and vet med), but it has to have a limit eventually.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I think some of it is also lack of research funds in the current economy. Academia wants people that can get moolah. They are less concerned with your diagnostic and teaching abilities than your ability to get grants.

 

[wildowl]

I think some of it is also lack of research funds in the current economy. Academia wants people that can get moolah. They are less concerned with your diagnostic and teaching abilities than your ability to get grants.

Just chiming in but this is very true. We currently have a rotation PhD student in my lab where I'm getting my MS and he is trying to get a 3rd rotation. Everyone he has contacted has said they have no funds. Many labs are not getting their grants renewed at my university and older professors have been forced to retire. On the other hand, a really cutting edge professor looking to join was offered 5 million plus because he collaborates with everyone using mass spec and is a very well known researcher, gets lots of grants. Academia is in a sad state right now.

 

[BlackDog17]

I wonder if we won't see more schools offering free and/or lower cost advanced degree options to attract new DVM graduates to academia. For example "We'll let you complete your PhD at our institution without charging you any tuition if you'll commit to working for us for X number of years or if you bring in X dollars in grants each year."

I have a feeling schools will start using some kind of incentive program like this to entice more people towards academia, especially when current professors start retiring and schools find themselves with little to no replacements. Something like this would probably be similar to a residency - you'd need top grades/experiences to even think about going after it. But even if it's only offered to the very top candidates, it would still be a step in the right direction.

 

[Lissarae06]

My dream job is to be a clinician at a VTH that also lectures. However, I don't want to do a PhD or do research so I know that I probably won't ever do what I just described. My dad is a president of a small regional university an he said I could come teach some bio courses as an adjunct if I wanted to

 

[nyanko]

I think it is both school dependent and specialty dependent. UCDavis is a pretty huge research school, but we have quite a few faculty members without PhD training (even more recently hired ones) in the clinician/teaching roles, though they still do have residency training and are boarded in their specialties obviously. WTF, you're in pathology so I'm not sure that your experience is that typical for the majority of cases.

I think one 'benefit' schools see to DVM + diplomates over DVM/PhD + diplomates is that they feel justified in paying them less so right now, it's who is getting hired. It's certainly not a benefit to the faculty member him/herself of course.

And well, there are people who will be much better off in an academic environment (I think I'm one of those) and the bottom line IMO is that people can make it work. Sometimes I think that people in the field are really overthinking all of this.

 

[moosenanny]

I am most likely total wrong , but I thought I remembered hearing that teaching is one of those jobs that if you do it for 10 years, loans become forgiven. Or is that just (other) non-profit jobs?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I am most likely total wrong , but I thought I remembered hearing that teaching is one of those jobs that if you do it for 10 years, loans become forgiven. Or is that just (other) non-profit jobs?

There is the public service forgiveness thing, but I think that applies more to people that purely teach - college teachers, high school, etc.

Clinical faculty at teaching hospitals also perform a large diagnostic function (or at least many of them do), and that likely eliminates them. A teaching hospital is technically a business and involves profit, even if the school itself can claim nonprofit (although someone correct me if I am wrong?). I cannot say for sure. I don't know of any vets that have done the public service loan thing.

 

[felinelvr44]

You guys, I figured it out.

In order to do a DVM + residency or PhD and not have your student loans balloon to exorbitant amounts... you just have to be independently wealthy. I guess that's the future of academia?

Seriously though, our priorities in this country are messed up. At my current job (law firm) one of my attny's is from Europe and has his JD, PhD, and LLM. And no debt because he went to a state university. And he's a year younger than I am.

 

[NStarz]

Most of the clinicians I've seen have been DVMs + boarded at OSU. Not sure

 

[Minnerbelle]

Clinical faculty at teaching hospitals also perform a large diagnostic function (or at least many of them do), and that likely eliminates them. [...] I don't know of any vets that have done the public service loan thing.

I've heard you say this more than once, but where did you get this conjecture? Are you sure that you don't know anyone that have done it simply because 0 people have done it due to the fact that the first eligible class is still not eligible? It's not like you sign into a program as of now. Supposedly, you're iust supposed to fill out a currently nonexistent document stating that you've made 120 payment while working full time at a nonprofit once you've worked 10 yrs, and magically your loans die. So no one is technically "in the program." I swear I'm not trying to be combative or anything, but I haven't heard that from anyone else so I'm wondering if there's something you know that I don't.

Now i have no idea how long PLSF will exist after that first wave of people get it, but in terms of eligibility, I personally haven't run across verbiage that would eliminate vets/residents in teaching hospitals. I haven't seen anything that says if someone performs money generating services, they're not eligible. A 501c3 is a 501c3 is it not? You could be entirely right that there are caveats, but I would like to know where that's laid out.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I've heard you say this more than once, but where did you get this conjecture? Are you sure that you don't know anyone that have done it simply because 0 people have done it due to the fact that the first eligible class is still not eligible? It's not like you sign into a program as of now. Supposedly, you're iust supposed to fill out a currently nonexistent document stating that you've made 120 payment while working full time at a nonprofit once you've worked 10 yrs, and magically your loans die. So no one is technically "in the program." I swear I'm not trying to be combative or anything, but I haven't heard that from anyone else so I'm wondering if there's something you know that I don't.

Now i have no idea how long PLSF will exist after that first wave of people get it, but in terms of eligibility, I personally haven't run across verbiage that would eliminate vets/residents in teaching hospitals. I haven't seen anything that says if someone performs money generating services, they're not eligible. A 501c3 is a 501c3 is it not? You could be entirely right that there are caveats, but I would like to know where that's laid out.

No prob at all, I know you're not. I'm pretty ignorant on the entire deal. It was never proposed to me as a viable option during school and I have never heard of veterinarians using it, so I assume there was a reason we didn't qualify and tried to think of why. I fully admit I may be wrong, I'm just surprised that it seems no one uses it. It sounded like it was geared towards people who teach full time and work exclusively in nonprofits and would require some maneuvering on our part to be able to qualify.

The main reason I haven't pursued it is because it would require me to make IBR payments which I cannot afford on my current salary (yes, even IBR). $200/month is a lot when half your income already goes to rent and bills (only recently have I been DINK). I had to make the decision between making a minor, practically insignificant dent in my loans or be able to save a couple hundred each month in case of emergencies (car breaking down, dog surgery, saving for moving, etc). Hopefully during the PhD I can start doing it.

The forms gives these options
• A Federal, State, local or Tribal government organization, agency or entity;
• A public child or family service agency;
• A non-profit organization under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code that is exempt from taxation under Section 501(a) of the Internal Revenue Code;
• A Tribal college or university; or
• A private organization (that is not a labor union or a partisan political organization) that provides at least one of the following public services:
•
emergency management,
•
military service,
•
public safety,
•
law enforcement,
•
public interest law services,
•
early childhood education (including licensed or regulated child care, Head Start, and State funded pre-kindergarten),
•
public service for individuals with disabilities and the elderly,
•
public health (including nurses, nurse practitioners, nurses in a clinical setting, and full-time professionals engaged in health care practitioner occupations and health support occupations, as such terms are defined by the Bureau of Labor Statistics),
•
public education,
•
public library services,
•
school library services, or
•
other school-based services.

I guess we would be "public education"? Or do they mean just professors and not PhD/grad people? Is a public school/teaching hospital considered a "private non-profit organization" that "provides public education"? Seems like a weird confusion of private vs public.

I don't think we would qualify for "public health" as it seems that is physician and nurse dominated (ie, they want "human health")

I was planning to submit the form after I changed jobs, but I might do it now out of curiosity.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I also feel like the whole public service thing is far too good to be true. If it were so, when why aren't ALL human doctors in this plan? Get your loans wiped out after 10 years? Sure! Why isn't every doctor that did internship(1-2 yrs)/residency (3-5 yrs) at/works at (for only a couple more to make the 10) a teaching hospital doing it? Are they and I just have no clue? Or are there caveats for them as well as for us (ie you'd have to be working for the Red Cross in rural Africa or something to qualify)

I have about 160k in loans right now, or therabouts. I find it hard to believe that I could pay $200 a month for 3 years of residency ($7200), $300/mo or so during my 4 years of PhD ($14,400), and then only have to pay for 3 more years as a professor say 85 k salary so ($32,400) and have it ALL wiped out. I will have only paid a quarter to a third of the total debt. There has to be a catch.

 

[CanHardlyWait]

Just to thrown in my observations at VMRCVM: They have hired 4 new faculty that in my limited time here, I have had the opportunity to interact with/know about.
One is a boarded pathologist DVM/PHD, two are DVM/PHD anatomy professors (interestingly both foreign, not sure if this plays a role in this discussion-pretty sure both are foreign DVM grads and US PHD grads) , and a nutritionist DVM/PHD (no residency but employed in large animal clinical science). All are young and in the beginning of their careers. I think there are others, for example the previously mentioned pathologist has a wife who was also just added to staff also, but I don't know her. Filling spots here doesn't seem to be an issue, despite all the ridiculous amount of schooling.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I also feel like the whole public service thing is far too good to be true. If it were so, when why aren't ALL human doctors in this plan? Get your loans wiped out after 10 years? Sure! Why isn't every doctor that did internship(1-2 yrs)/residency (3-5 yrs) at/works at (for only a couple more to make the 10) a teaching hospital doing it? Are they and I just have no clue? Or are there caveats for them as well as for us (ie you'd have to be working for the Red Cross in rural Africa or something to qualify)

I have about 160k in loans right now, or therabouts. I find it hard to believe that I could pay $200 a month for 3 years of residency ($7200), $300/mo or so during my 4 years of PhD ($14,400), and then only have to pay for 3 more years as a professor say 85 k salary so ($32,400) and have it ALL wiped out. I will have only paid a quarter to a third of the total debt. There has to be a catch.

That's been my hang up as well. But according to this, medical residents do qualify. Not sure how trustworthy this site is, but watevs... And every financial aid person I've brought this up with seemed to think that residents would qualify. But they seemed kinda hazy too, which is why I've been so confused.

I'm guessing the too good to be true part is that it probably won't exist for more than like 1-5 years of classes, and the joke will be on the rest of us who will have allowed our loans to balloon in anticipation of the forgiveness (which is why I don't bank on it).

 

[Minnerbelle]

I guess we would be "public education"? Or do they mean just professors and not PhD/grad people? Is a public school/teaching hospital considered a "private non-profit organization" that "provides public education"? Seems like a weird confusion of private vs public.

That's also a really good point. I assumed that all vet teaching hospitals would be a registered 501c3 because I worked at a human teaching hospital and it was indeed a 501c3 nonprofit. It was all over my employment papers, the hospital website, and pretty much every hospital brochure.

But I just googled "veterinary teaching hospital 501(c)3" and got nada. I looked at a couple of different vet school teaching hospitals to see if I could get that info on their website, but I don't see it. So what exactly is the tax status of vet teaching hospitals

 

[Lissarae06]

Minnerbelle, my husband is in that public service program. He just signed up for it a few months ago. He is a fireman fwiw.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm totally with you, Minnerbelle. I didn't mean to come off sounding like I knew the answer, I just was trying to figure out why it tends not to be presented as an option to us. I mean, if this was a common thing, and why wouldn't they be trumpeting it all over vet schools? Maybe they are at some and not others? So many unknowns.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

That's also a really good point. I assumed that all vet teaching hospitals would be a registered 501c3 because I worked at a human teaching hospital and it was indeed a 501c3 nonprofit. It was all over my employment papers, the hospital website, and pretty much every hospital brochure.

But I just googled "veterinary teaching hospital 501(c)3" and got nada. I looked at a couple of different vet school teaching hospitals to see if I could get that info on their website, but I don't see it. So what exactly is the tax status of vet teaching hospitals

No idea. I see smaller clinics like this listed

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/whatsnew/article2.cfm?id=1963

in Davis, for example. But no actual teaching hospitals....anyone know?

 

[Minnerbelle]

Minnerbelle, my husband is in that public service program. He just signed up for it a few months ago. He is a fireman fwiw.

wait wut... you actually sign something when you start? Like, payments you've made working in a public service program prior to "signing up" don't count? How do you sign up? And why does no one tell us these things? The way I was told by at least 2 financial aid peeps is that there isn't a formal enrollment process... I wish there was an IBR/PLSF appointed by the government who could come and actually clarify things.

I'm totally with you, Minnerbelle. I didn't mean to come off sounding like I knew the answer, I just was trying to figure out why it tends not to be presented as an option to us. I mean, if this was a common thing, and why wouldn't they be trumpeting it all over vet schools? Maybe they are at some and not others? So many unknowns.

Oh no worries at all, you didn't come off that way. I was just wondering if you knew something that I didn't because I've been looking for a lot of these answers over the past few years and the information is very hard to find. I've attended at least a couple of financial aid talks each year that I've been in vet school, and even now, PSLF only comes up in passing. Like, "oh look, here's a program that is a great deal." Not much more information has been given, and if asked in greater detail, no one has any answers. I think it's because truly, no one really knows how it will go into effect and what's guaranteed/not guaranteed.

 

[Minnerbelle]

No idea. I see smaller clinics like this listed

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/whatsnew/article2.cfm?id=1963

in Davis, for example. But no actual teaching hospitals....anyone know?

yup I saw that too... which is what's making me kinda uneasy. If the "low cost" spinoff clinic is clearly a 501c3... what's the main hospital?

 

[Lissarae06]

wait wut... you actually sign something when you start? Like, payments you've made working in a public service program prior to "signing up" don't count? How do you sign up? And why does no one tell us these things? The way I was told by at least 2 financial aid peeps is that there isn't a formal enrollment process... I wish there was an IBR/PLSF appointed by the government who could come and actually clarify things.



Oh no worries at all, you didn't come off that way. I was just wondering if you knew something that I didn't because I've been looking for a lot of these answers over the past few years and the information is very hard to find. I've attended at least a couple of financial aid talks each year that I've been in vet school, and even now, PSLF only comes up in passing. Like, "oh look, here's a program that is a great deal." Not much more information has been given, and if asked in greater detail, no one has any answers. I think it's because truly, no one really knows how it will go into effect and what's guaranteed/not guaranteed.

He had to fill out some paperwork and proof of his employment as a public firefighter. I'm not exactly sure what he had to send in. I will ask and get back to you.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

yup I saw that too... which is what's making me kinda uneasy. If the "low cost" spinoff clinic is clearly a 501c3... what's the main hospital?

The biggest one I could find was the AMC in NY

http://www.amcny.org/about-amc

But still no vet schools...maybe that's the problem?

 

[Minnerbelle]

He had to fill out some paperwork and proof of his employment as a public firefighter. I'm not exactly sure what he had to send in. I will ask and get back to you.

Sweet, that would be awesome!

 

[Lissarae06]

Sweet, that would be awesome!

Ok he said he called direct student loans and told them he was interested in the loan forgiveness program. They asked some questions about his occupation and then sent him some paperwork. They put his loans in forebearance while they waited on his paperwork and for processing. That was for two months I think. Then direct loans transferred his loan to another department within federal student loans and now he pays IBR. You have to do IBR for your loan to be forgiven.

 

[nyanko]

yup I saw that too... which is what's making me kinda uneasy. If the "low cost" spinoff clinic is clearly a 501c3... what's the main hospital?

Mercer isn't a 'low-cost spinoff' of the VMTH, it's run by vet student volunteers with (some UCD and some not) clinician volunteers and it is for homeless people and their pets. The clients have to have a card from here: http://www.sacloaves.org/ to qualify and services are free.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Lissa, do you know where your husband got the information other than calling his loan servicer that he needed to fill out paperwork to get into the program? Or did he just decide to call and ask about it?

Mercer isn't a 'low-cost spinoff' of the VMTH, it's run by vet student volunteers with (some UCD and some not) clinician volunteers and it is for homeless people and their pets. The clients have to have a card from here: http://www.sacloaves.org/ to qualify and services are free.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I really didn't mean anything negative by calling it a low-cost spinoff other than that we're not talking about the VMTH.

 

[Lissarae06]

Lissa, do you know where your husband got the information other than calling his loan servicer that he needed to fill out paperwork to get into the program? Or did he just decide to call and ask about it?



Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I really didn't mean anything negative by calling it a low-cost spinoff other than that we're not talking about the VMTH.

I think one of his coworkers told him about it.

 

[orca2011]

This might no be very helpful, but the one vet I work with is working on getting enrolled in the public service/non profit loan forgiveness plan. I haven't talked to her recently about it but she was in the middle of the paperwork at the time and I remember her saying she had to consolidate her loans. She be might enrolled in it by now... haven't talked to her recently about it.


She also made it sound like you can work a vet related job, say in a private practice, but have a second job at a non profit and still get accepted to the program as long as you were putting x amount of hours at the non profit. Not sure if that's true or not though.

ETA: sorry for the previous typos...was on my phone.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Ooooh, I think I figured it out. I was having a hard time reconciling the fact that Lissa's hubby and Orca's vet friend are going through "paperwork," because I've been told by at least a couple people who are supposed to know what they're talking about that you don't actually sign up for anything except for IBR to be in the program.

The studentaid.ed.gov website says for "What should I do after I become eligible for PSLF?"

After you make your 120th qualifying payment, you will need to submit the PSLF application to receive loan forgiveness. The application is under development and will be available prior to the date when the first borrowers will be eligible for PSLF Program forgiveness, in October 2017. You must be working for a qualified public service organization at the time you submit the application for forgiveness and at the time the remaining balance on your loan is forgiven.

So I was like, wtf? But then just above it, it explains that while you don't need to, you can track your progress and eligibility as you go by filling in a form so that you don't have to submit paperwork for all 10 years of non-profit employment at once. I'm guessing that's what was being done.

And Orca I believe you're right. As long as you are employed full-time at a non-profit, I don't think it matters what you do on your free time, including being employed elsewhere. The only effect the other job should have on your loan situation at least is that it will increase your IBR payments.

 

[felinelvr44]

This might no be very helpful, but the one vet I work with is working on getting enrolled in the public service/non profit loan forgiveness plan. I haven't talked to her recently about it but she in the middle of the palerwork at the time and I remember her saying she had to consolidate her loans. She might enrolled in it by now...havent talked to her recently about it.


She also made it sound like you go work vet job, say in a private practice, but have a second job at a non profit and that you could still get accepted to the program as long as you were putting x amount of hours at the non profit. Not sure if that's true or not though.

I'd be very interested to hear the hours/week requirement for this if you get a chance to ask her. On the finaid.org website it only says "full time employment" but the employer certificate form has boxes for both full time and part time. (http://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/public-service-employment-certification-form.pdf).

From reading over that form, it seems like you can be employed part-time at several non-profits, as long as your hours add up to full-time status. It also states on the form that "full-time" is considered 30 hours a week.

 

[orca2011]

I'd be very interested to hear the hours/week requirement for this if you get a chance to ask her. On the finaid.org website it only says "full time employment" but the employer certificate form has boxes for both full time and part time. (http://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/public-service-employment-certification-form.pdf).

From reading over that form, it seems like you can be employed part-time at several non-profits, as long as your hours add up to full-time status. It also states on the form that "full-time" is considered 30 hours a week.

I think it was more along the lines of you could work like full time for a soup kitchen or something like that, but then do a vet related job on the side. Not quite sure why you would choose that option, but I guess you could get started in the program at least while you looked for a vet related non profit job elsewhere?

I apologize for my poor word/sentence choice earlier.

I'm only working there a few more times this week, and unfortunately not with her, but I'll try to remember to ask her more about the program if I get the chance.

 

[felinelvr44]

I think it was more along the lines of you could work like full time for a soup kitchen or something like that, but then do a vet related job on the side. Not quite sure why you would choose that option, but I guess you could get started in the program at least while you looked for a vet related non profit job elsewhere?

I apologize for my poor word/sentence choice earlier.

I'm only working there a few more times this week, and unfortunately not with her, but I'll try to remember to ask her more about the program if I get the chance.

No worries! I think I actually answered my own question since I found that form that says it must be "full-time" and that "full-time" meant 30 hours per week. But thank you for making me look into that, it's definitely something I will consider in the future

 

[cowgirla]

From reading over that form, it seems like you can be employed part-time at several non-profits, as long as your hours add up to full-time status. It also states on the form that "full-time" is considered 30 hours a week.

From the website- "If you are employed in more than one qualifying part-time job simultaneously, you may meet the full-time employment requirement if you work a combined average of at least 30 hours per week with your employers."


Anyone know if this is like IBR where you have to pay a bunch of taxes at the end?

 

[felinelvr44]

From the website- "If you are employed in more than one qualifying part-time job simultaneously, you may meet the full-time employment requirement if you work a combined average of at least 30 hours per week with your employers."


Anyone know if this is like IBR where you have to pay a bunch of taxes at the end?

No, you do not pay taxes on the discharged loan balance for the 10-year public service plan. From the website:

"The 10-year public service loan forgiveness is not taxable under section 108(f) of the Internal Revenue Code because the forgiveness is restricted to borrowers who work in specific occupations. However, the 25-year forgiveness for borrowers who don't work in public service careers will represent taxable income to the borrower under current law. See Taxability of Student Loan Forgiveness for additional details."

and

"IRS Revenue Rulings

The US Treasury reviewed several different types of student loan forgiveness and loan cancellation provisions in a September 19, 2008 letter to Representative Sander Levin.
The letter specifies that the following types of student loan forgiveness are not taxable:

Public Service Loan Forgiveness (Section 455(m)(2) of the Higher Education Act of 1965)
Teacher Loan Forgiveness (Sections 460 and 428J of the Higher Education Act of 1965)

On the other hand, the letter also specifies that the following other types of student loan discharges do represent taxable income:
Death and Disability Discharge (Section 437(a) of the Higher Education Act of 1965)
Closed School, False Certification and Unpaid Refund Discharge (Section 437(c) of the Higher Education Act of 1965)
Closed School Discharge (Section 464(g) of the Higher Education Act of 1965)
Income-Contingent Repayment (Section 455(e) of the Higher Education Act of 1965)
Income-Based Repayment (Section 493C(b)(7) of the Higher Education Act of 1965)"

 

[dovelover]

Two very helpful links that might answer questions people have about Public Service Loan Forgiveness and IBR
http://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/public-service-loan-forgiveness-common-questions.pdf
http://studentaid.ed.gov/sites/default/files/income-based-repayment-common-questions.pdf
Note, the PSLF one really isn't all that helpful in clarifying everybody's questions about types of jobs that are eligible, but could help answer other questions anyone reading this may have.
Also note, you don't have to be in IBR to qualify for PSLF, however, that will allow you to make the most use of the forgiveness. Any payments made on IBR, ICR, or a standard 10 year plan count to your 120 required payments (aka, if you start out on standard and later switch to IBR, you're still eligible for forgiveness ten years after your first payment made while employed in an eligible position, regardless of whether it was IBR or standard)
I should also note that for anyone counting on loan forgiveness after 25 years of IBR, that has just as much potential disappear by the time any of us get there as the PSLF program is, however we are being reassured that this is "highly unlikely to occur in the foreseeable future." If you count 25 years as foreseeable future.