The future of pharmacy

[BMBiology]

That is exactly right. You are spending your youth studying and working your butt off but at the end of the day, you still have nothing. You just have a ball of student loan debt.

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[anewmanx]

That is exactly right. You are spending your youth studying and working your butt off but at the end of the day, you still have nothing. You just have a ball of student loan debt.

Well, I have to agree with you there. The education racket in the state is dispicable. Most higher education in Latin America and Europe is relatively cheap. In Germany they don't even pay tuition; what a novel idea. Here in Costa Rica Pharmacy school (Bsc Pharm 5 yr) is around $2250 a semester for a citizen; $5500 a semester for a foreigner. At 10 semesters it comes to a whopping $22,500 for a citizen and $55,000 for a foreigner. I fit into the latter category even though I'll have citizenship in two years. In order to use my GI Bill I have to attend as a foreigner.

Kind of sickening isn't it? The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Americans are slaves to debt.

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Anyways, back on track. I don't see any way in which the over-saturation in the US Pharmacist market can't balance itself. Society has a way of self regulating due to circumstances. It's just a phase.

The part I find ridiculous is the rest of the world requiring a Bsc Pharm and the US forcing every student into a Clinical degree that they don't necessarily need. I.E. taking more tuition from your pocket for no truly justifiable reason.

 

[pezdispenser]

In 2017:

(1) 2 years of residency for a "clinical" position
(2) 1 year of residency for a hospital position
(3) > 33% of the new graduates will be unemployed or underemployed

I will bump this thread up in 2017 to see if I am right.

Did we discuss whether it's worth doing 10 years of study for a clinical position? How much do those jobs make anyway? In my opinion, if you're studious enough to do 10 years, you may as well go the MD route.

My prediction is that all of the smart people will see that pharmacy is dying, or a poor return on investment, and will choose to go into other careers instead. However, since all of the pharmacy schools and new diploma mills still have to fill their seats, they will have to accept a lower standard of applicants. These applicants will be people who were told that their neighbor's girlfriend's second cousin once removed is in 'pharmaceuticals' and is making a killing, so pharmacy should be a great career choice.

 

[BMBiology]

Anyways, back on track. I don't see any way in which the over-saturation in the US Pharmacist market can't balance itself. Society has a way of self regulating due to circumstances. It's just a phase.

The only way for the market to rebalance itself is for pharmacy schools to be held accountable for the students they produce. Right now the schools get paid regardless if the graduating class is 100% employed or just 50% employed. It doesn't matter. It's just about tuition money. As long as there's money, pharmacy schools will continue to expand and new schools will open.

Even in this saturated job market, pharmacy schools are still expanding and more schools are planning to open. Just in California, four more schoools are planning to open. Not too long ago, there were just 4 schools. Now there are 8 schools and with these four schools, there will be 12 pharmacy schools in California.

 

[oldstock]

Well, I have to agree with you there. The education racket in the state is dispicable. Most higher education in Latin America and Europe is relatively cheap. In Germany they don't even pay tuition; what a novel idea. Here in Costa Rica Pharmacy school (Bsc Pharm 5 yr) is around $2250 a semester for a citizen; $5500 a semester for a foreigner. At 10 semesters it comes to a whopping $22,500 for a citizen and $55,000 for a foreigner. I fit into the latter category even though I'll have citizenship in two years. In order to use my GI Bill I have to attend as a foreigner.

Kind of sickening isn't it? The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Americans are slaves to debt.

-------

Anyways, back on track. I don't see any way in which the over-saturation in the US Pharmacist market can't balance itself. Society has a way of self regulating due to circumstances. It's just a phase.

The part I find ridiculous is the rest of the world requiring a Bsc Pharm and the US forcing every student into a Clinical degree that they don't necessarily need. I.E. taking more tuition from your pocket for no truly justifiable reason.

there are simply not enough clinical positions / residencies to support all PharmD graduates that are pumped out by more and more schools every year, thus

-schools win

-ACPE wins

-hospitals / residencies win

-retails win

-employers / corporations / companies win

-everyone and their cousins win but the students (sigh)

as about more new schools opening up and lower standards of admission, I read an article somewhere here on SDN that some law schools are accepting students with 20 percentile on the LSAT (some good law schools like George Washington University are accepting 50 percentile for 2013 application compared to 75 percentile just a few years ago) http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2014/02/various-law-school-developments . We are there already !!

http://www.pharmacypracticenews.com/ViewArticle.aspx?d=Operations & Management&d_id=53&i=October 2013&i_id=1006&a_id=24255

 

[anewmanx]

That just confounds me. If they are truly producing pi$$ poor students, how are they passing the NAPLAX? Now, if they are producing halfway decent academics who can do their job; at the very least they can transition into research positions with a little more school.

There is a somewhat different system here in Costa Rica. They will generally admit anyone who can pass a psychometric test, or has previously graduated from college, but they REFUSE to dumb down the curriculum. Very few people who start will graduate from a program. I know that in my wife's initial classes for her 5 year bachelors in the teaching of English as a second language (very freaking difficult degree for someone who's native language is not English) there were hundreds of students. In the end about 8 graduated. Of those, maybe four moved on to the Licenciatura (a 1 year graduate degree that confers the right to teach in a government school or university setting.)

Has the American University system really diluted down to just a cash cow business? It disheartens me. Makes me want to do graduate work in Europe.

 

[anewmanx]

The only way for the market to rebalance itself is for pharmacy schools to be held accountable for the students they produce. Right now the schools get paid regardless if the graduating class is 100% employed or just 50% employed. It doesn't matter. It's just about tuition money. As long as there's money, pharmacy schools will continue to expand and new schools will open.

Even in this saturated job market, pharmacy schools are still expanding and more schools are planning to open. Just in California, four more schoools are planning to open. Not too long ago, there were just 4 schools. Now there are 8 schools and with these four schools, there will be 12 pharmacy schools in California.

Alternatively, the market could balance by wages lowering and people leaving the profession.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Heh...33% unemployment? Even construction worker unemployment only hit 16%. I don't know of any validated methods to ascertain underemployment, though.

My prediction: eventually no more "hospital/dispensing" pharmacists, all tech check tech and decentralized clinical pharmacists + 1 centralized rph to handle high risk compounding.

Or robots...lots of robots.

Maybe not 2017 though.

That is scary! I was considering pharmacy, but these very reasons steered me away from pharmacy and made me consider medicine...

 

[metrarx]

That just confounds me. If they are truly producing pi$$ poor students, how are they passing the NAPLAX? Now, if they are producing halfway decent academics who can do their job; at the very least they can transition into research positions with a little more school.

There is a somewhat different system here in Costa Rica. They will generally admit anyone who can pass a psychometric test, or has previously graduated from college, but they REFUSE to dumb down the curriculum. Very few people who start will graduate from a program. I know that in my wife's initial classes for her 5 year bachelors in the teaching of English as a second language (very freaking difficult degree for someone who's native language is not English) there were hundreds of students. In the end about 8 graduated. Of those, maybe four moved on to the Licenciatura (a 1 year graduate degree that confers the right to teach in a government school or university setting.)

Has the American University system really diluted down to just a cash cow business? It disheartens me. Makes me want to do graduate work in Europe.

NAPLEX isn't hard. Many schools (especially diploma mills with PGY1, zero-experience faculty) will do a crash course to make their numbers look good.

The quality of students I see every year keeps dropping. Pre pharmacy students with subpar GPA need not worry. They are getting accepted to multiple pharmacy schools. They will be happy to take 80k starting salaries as you've mentioned. It's already happening with reduced hours from Walgreens and reduced hourly rates at other chains. Your average student does not analyze the true cost of attendance. Many do not know how interest rates work and think that 6.8% is good rate compared to their credit card statements. They're financially inept. The market will take longer to correct itself because these students are keeping all the new schools healthy. It certainly didn't help when the supertechs and they lay public saw pharmacists pulling up in company-provided flashy cars in the 90s and 00s. Back then, most would be weeded out because acceptance requirements were much higher. Now, your main requirement is to be eligible for FAFSA and you're good to go.

Alternatively, the market could balance by wages lowering and people leaving the profession.

No, they're not going to leave the profession. Student loans stay with you until they're paid off. If you mean older pharmacists, well, the new grad with $200K plus debt will take that job but at a much reduced pay.

 

[Bubba98]

Working at a high volume retail store for $80,000/yr with $1500/month debt payments for 20 years sounds like hell. I can imagine the service levels in that scenario.

 

[Gombrich12]

Luckily, anyone who will be working in such a scenario will be doing so after being fully informed of what could happen. There is enough info out there now that any prospective students should be considered sufficiently warned both about the job prospects and the debt.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

That is scary! I was considering pharmacy, but these very reasons steered me away from pharmacy and made me consider medicine...

Just stay away from radiology . . . Supposedly those residents are desperate for work.

 

[TheTao]

Working at a high volume retail store for $80,000/yr with $1500/month debt payments for 20 years sounds like hell. I can imagine the service levels in that scenario.

So to make this happen, are you assuming the person is going to stay single, or have a stay at home spouse?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Just stay away from radiology . . . Supposedly those residents are desperate for work.

Psych or FM for me... I ain't going to spend that crazy amount of money to have problem finding work...

 

[Chriskahn]

@oldstock Here is what we can do to make changes in our field. Pharmacists in WA (where I'm from) are already providers. But under federal law, pharmacists are not recognized as providers.

Ive seen on multiple threads how you have been searching for a way to make changes in our field. Here it is buddy. Spread the word.

http://copy-apha-pharmacists.kickoffpages.com/?kid=4HWFS

 

[oldstock]

@oldstock Here is what we can do to make changes in our field. Pharmacists in WA (where I'm from) are already providers. But under federal law, pharmacists are not recognized as providers.

Ive seen on multiple threads how you have been searching for a way to make changes in our field. Here it is buddy. Spread the word.

http://copy-apha-pharmacists.kickoffpages.com/?kid=4HWFS

I am glad to see this positive movement !! let's hope !!