The Income. The REAL Income

[Lady_Koolaid]

I keep hearing about how the student loans are awful, and the Vets never make any money. But google says they pull an average of $80-85,000 a year?? That doesn't sound that bad to me. It's not on the same level as MDs, but it's certainly above the average household. (Maybe it's because I grew up a little on the poor side???)

So, truthfully, from those of you who have recently gotten your DVM degrees, (congrats) ...or from anyone who has a better idea ...how bad ARE new Vets struggling??

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[stealthoscope]

This blog post might help you think about finances a bit. It details how most vet students pay off their loans over time, which is quite a bit more complicated than, "wait until the end of the year and then send them all the money you earned that you didn't use for staying alive". Interest is a big deal. It may only (only?!) sound like an average of $100,000 a year than MDs, but when you take into account how much your loans are going to be accruing interest while you try to pay them off, it's a big deal.

 

[Minnerbelle]

It really depends on who you are, what your finances are, what kind of life situation you have, and how much you pay for school.

If you have less than 100k-150k of debt at time of repayment (as in after all the interest accumulates during school and your grace period 6mos after graduation... so you're really really lucky), earn average or higher salary, and don't have other sources of financial drain in your life and/or have a second income in your household, you're probably fine as long as you can continue to be employed. Even at that level, you are looking at paying $7000-11,0000 per year on interest alone before you can pay your principal. If you're earning $70k -$80k (and note, not everyone does), your take home salary is $42-50k per year provides that your employer pays everything you need for health insurance and professional dues and such as a part of your benefits. That means after paying just your interest for the year, you're at around 30-40k net income to live on AND pay down your student loan principal. If you're single or have a SO with a second income, young enough that you don't need to put a ton away for retirement, no kids, and live the lifestyle of a student, and don't have other major expenses... Yeah it's totally doable, you won't be rich by any stretch of the imagination. But you can pay the bills and live without discomfort provided you don't live in NYC or SF or something. And if you're lucky and are doing better than that in any aspect (personal wealth, salary, lower student debt, etc...) it's honkey dorey.

But you see all the IFs in the above scenario. As you deviate away in a bad direction from the above scenario, you can see how ugly it can get really quickly. If you're a prevet now, or just applying now, it's becoming more and more unlikely that you will graduate with less than $150k debt. With all the extra new graduates, it may be harder to get a good paying job. You do an internship or residency, you really have to hedge your bets that your pay afterwards will be worth the huge disadvantage financially those extra 4-5 years will put you (and that's becoming dicey with some
Specialties).

 

[dyachei]

It also doesn't help that the starting salary is usually not as high as 80-85k. Because you have to start loan repayment 6 months after graduation unless you contact them for deferment. And you probably just moved (not everyone does, but many do).

If you have any other costs - car payment, mortgage, credit card debt, etc., it gets very difficult to make enough sometimes. So then you end up doing IBR. Which is great except that you have more interest accumulating every month and you pay your loans for longer. Remember, you're also now in one of the highest tax brackets.

So, the take home is that even though $80-85k SOUNDS like a lot, it dwindles away very quickly and can be very stressful.

 

[cowgirla]

In some areas, starting salaries of 55-65K are more realistic. Don't forget about the taxes that are taken out of each paycheck. Say your 65K turns into 45K. You might bring home roughly $3750 per month. Student loan payments (10yr) on 200,000 will likely be close to $2500 a month. With what's left, there's rent, car, insurances, food, utilities, etc.

The numbers might be slightly better for a salary of 85K but I wouldn't plan on that as a starting point in most areas. I know vets that worked for years before reaching the 80s. There's a reason the income based repayment plans are so popular right now.

 

[Minnerbelle]

That's the thing. So many things have to be in your favor for things to be "okay."

I know few people in the doable everything is under control situation. Most people I know are in the "I'm just going to pay on an income based repayment plan and bury my head in the sand because I don't know what else to do" situation.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think it's also very evil of the government to not allow payment of FEDERAL student loans pre-tax. We're getting hit with insanely high 7-8% interest AND getting taxed a higher income bracket tax on top of that.

 

[dyachei]

In some areas, starting salaries of 55-65K are more realistic. Don't forget about the taxes that are taken out of each paycheck. Say your 65K turns into 45K. You might bring home roughly $3750 per month. Student loan payments (10yr) on 200,000 will likely be close to $2500 a month. With what's left, there's rent, car, insurances, food, utilities, etc.

The numbers might be slightly better for a salary of 85K but I wouldn't plan on that as a starting point in most areas. I know vets that worked for years before reaching the 80s. There's a reason the income based repayment plans are so popular right now.

Agree with this wholeheartedly

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I keep hearing about how the student loans are awful, and the Vets never make any money. But google says they pull an average of $80-85,000 a year?? That doesn't sound that bad to me. It's not on the same level as MDs, but it's certainly above the average household. (Maybe it's because I grew up a little on the poor side???)

So, truthfully, from those of you who have recently gotten your DVM degrees, (congrats) ...or from anyone who has a better idea ...how bad ARE new Vets struggling??

That might be the average, but it's certainly not the starting salary - and it's also the average of a broad profession that includes specialists (and does it include non-clinical vets, like those working for food and drug companies)?

If you want to work out what loan repayment calculations might be like (i.e. how much you have to live on afterwards), take a look at this interactive site: http://vinfoundation.org/AppUtil/Project/DefaultAdv1.aspx?pid=8814&id=5532935 It allows you to input amount of loans, expected starting salary, expected rate of raises, and other things that will affect your financial situation like internship, marriage, children, etc. It's put out by the charitable arm of the Veterinary Information Network, which is about as unbiased as you're going to see out there (no corporate sponsorship, etc).

 

[deleted498041]

As others have said, there are a lot of "ifs" and other factors to consider. Another consideration is those who decide to specialize. I'll be making sub-$30,000 a year, if my plans go accordingly, for about 5 years post graduation and I'll have over $100,000 in loans to pay off over time. Those numbers don't really match up all that well.

 

[Mad Jack]

I keep hearing about how the student loans are awful, and the Vets never make any money. But google says they pull an average of $80-85,000 a year?? That doesn't sound that bad to me. It's not on the same level as MDs, but it's certainly above the average household. (Maybe it's because I grew up a little on the poor side???)

So, truthfully, from those of you who have recently gotten your DVM degrees, (congrats) ...or from anyone who has a better idea ...how bad ARE new Vets struggling??

Given that interest on 250k in loans is about 17k, and that 88k is only around 64k post-tax, you're looking at 47k after your loan payment just to keep up with interest, without saying anything for retirement or paying your health insurance costs. So basically your loans can cripple you financially, often for the rest of your working life, if they are too large care of compound interest.

 

[FeenyFee]

Do you guys recommend any books/webinars/websites/youtube vids that can educate me on finances/loans/budgeting? I did that vin calculator but I have no clue how to decipher it.

 

[Minnerbelle]

That might be the average, but it's certainly not the starting salary - and it's also the average of a broad profession that includes specialists (and does it include non-clinical vets, like those working for food and drug companies)?

And clinic owners as well.

 

[Minnerbelle]

There's got to be a better way for people to get informed.

Until you've gotten to that repayment stage after the grace period is over, it's really hard to grasp the gravity of the situation. No one thinks about the interest that's accrued during vet school, the interest accrued during the grace period, the interest accrued during advanced training, and what it looks like when interest capitalizes. Even for people who think about this stuff ahead of time, it's still flabbergasting when you get there. It really is a shocker no matter how ready you think you are about it.

And when we talk about like year end totals and stuff, it's also a little misleading. Let's say you're paying $2000 per month on your student loans. That's a lot! Can you think of anything else in your life that you are paying $2000 per month on??? But your principal is only decreasing by $600 because interest alone is $1400 per month. Until you've experienced this, it's hard for you to understand the despair you feel inside. You pay $2000 and you're only $600 richer. Or more realistically, you pay $600 per month on IBR and you see your loans GROW by $800 per month. Talk about depressing. $600 per month is a lot! And that's money you're hemorrhaging every month, and it's not doing a ****ing thing for you. You're worse off after you pay it than before you did. Or at least that's what it seems like. I could buy myself 2 ponycycles a month with that money, and it would bring me infinitely more joy.

 

[Lilly63]

So would it be beneficial to save as much as you can for a year or two prior to getting into veterinary school?

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

As others have said, there are a lot of "ifs" and other factors to consider. Another consideration is those who decide to specialize. I'll be making sub-$30,000 a year, if my plans go accordingly, for about 5 years post graduation and I'll have over $100,000 in loans to pay off over time. Those numbers don't really match up all that well.

Yep.

I started with 135k in loans as in in-state student.

3 years of residency and 2 out of 4 of PhD later, it's 180k+.

I made 30k in residency (pre-tax). I make 45k now because they pay me on a postdoc scale so I was able to throw a little money at them, but it will drop back down to about 35k this year because I come off my 3-year grant and onto departmental funds for the last year.

To be fair, starting salaries for the positions I'll be going for are around 90k, and after a 5 or so years you can be in the low 100s. But it's still hard to swallow.

In some areas, starting salaries of 55-65K are more realistic. Don't forget about the taxes that are taken out of each paycheck. Say your 65K turns into 45K. You might bring home roughly $3750 per month. Student loan payments (10yr) on 200,000 will likely be close to $2500 a month. With what's left, there's rent, car, insurances, food, utilities, etc.

The numbers might be slightly better for a salary of 85K but I wouldn't plan on that as a starting point in most areas. I know vets that worked for years before reaching the 80s. There's a reason the income based repayment plans are so popular right now.

This.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I keep hearing about how the student loans are awful, and the Vets never make any money. But google says they pull an average of $80-85,000 a year?? That doesn't sound that bad to me. It's not on the same level as MDs, but it's certainly above the average household. (Maybe it's because I grew up a little on the poor side???)

So, truthfully, from those of you who have recently gotten your DVM degrees, (congrats) ...or from anyone who has a better idea ...how bad ARE new Vets struggling??

Any sentence that starts with these three words likely contains debateable information.

 

[JC21]

So would it be beneficial to save as much as you can for a year or two prior to getting into veterinary school?

It's pretty beneficial in any part of life to save as much as you can, but you should definitely take your personal spending habits into account.

I'm not really an expert on loans and what you can classify as a "living expense." But there's definitely nothing wrong with having a "just in case" savings that you can go to if needed.

I'm personally in the boat of having a full-time job, about to start pre reqs, and I am faced with the situation of "Do I move to part time and get more time to study and work with animals, and less to live on?" or "Do I work full-time, have less time to study, have just enough animal experience to meet the requirement, but be able to fully support myself financially?"

It's always easier with more money. So if you know you might need it in the future and can cut back some now, I'd do it.

 

[Minnerbelle]

So would it be beneficial to save as much as you can for a year or two prior to getting into veterinary school?

Depends on how much you can save during that time.

If you can get a job making 60k per year and save 20k per year, yeah probably worth it.

Working $10/hr as a vet assistant, saving $2000 total? You will likely be doing yourself a favor by going as soon as you can earning a doctor's salary. Also, tuition goes up every year so if your savings aren't more than the tuition hike, you're doing yourself a disservice.

 

[RadRadTerp]

I work in NYC and the starting salaries for most GP positions that I was looking at between 2014 and 2015 were closer to 75k-80k, with many not paying full health insurance. Sounds like a lot unless you count that a 1BR apartment in Brooklyn is around $1700/month and everything is more expensive here. I also live with a roommate so I can send $700 a month towards my loans, but I was lucky that I got out of school with just under $100k in debt. After I graduated in 2014, I was looking for work in the DC suburbs near my parents and there were positions offered at closer to $65k/year. I considered taking overnight shifts at an emergency hospital because they pay very well, but I had done plenty of that my first year out and I got burned out really quick.

 

[Posey]

I apologize if this was mentioned, but it's important to consider cost of living where you plan to practice. Something as basic as the monthly cost of rent/ mortgage payment varies widely depending on where you live. Additionally, some areas have no income tax while others have state, county, and town level income taxes.
I'm glad someone already mentioned saving for retirement. That may not seem like a big deal, especially if you are still in your 20s, but it is important to put something aside each paycheck, even if it's a small amount. Just like student loans grow with compounding interest, your retirement investments grow with compounding interest.

 

[dyachei]

I apologize if this was mentioned, but it's important to consider cost of living where you plan to practice. Something as basic as the monthly cost of rent/ mortgage payment varies widely depending on where you live. Additionally, some areas have no income tax while others have state, county, and town level income taxes.
I'm glad someone already mentioned saving for retirement. That may not seem like a big deal, especially if you are still in your 20s, but it is important to put something aside each paycheck, even if it's a small amount. Just like student loans grow with compounding interest, your retirement investments grow with compounding interest.

I live in a no state income tax state. They make up for it in other ways

 

[Minnerbelle]

Just like student loans grow with compounding interest, your retirement investments grow with compounding interest.

Student loans are simple interest, not compound interest. If it were, we'd be sooooo screwed. The only time you pay interest on the accrued interest is when it capitalizes. That's bad enough, but it doesn't happen beyond that.

 

[Posey]

Student loans are simple interest, not compound interest. If it were, we'd be sooooo screwed. The only time you pay interest on the accrued interest is when it capitalizes. That's bad enough, but it doesn't happen beyond that.

Good catch! It certainly feels like compounding interest, though. lol

 

[Lady_Koolaid]

So here's the deal with me:
I live in Florida, in Gainesville actually. And I'm hoping to transfer into UF Vet school. I'm an undergrad right now majoring in Animal Sciences. (UF is very selective, so we'll see.) I live with my parents, I'm unemployed. Even if I have to go to another vet school, I'll probably still live with my parents, because they've agreed to make the move for me. (They aren't wild about the west coast though.)

I went to a CVT school for a year, that said it was "non-profit", but was operated like a for-profit, and within 1 year, I racked up $20k worth of loans. I withdrew because they weren't AVMA accredited, nor were they regionally accredited. But I did fall in love with VetMed, and medicine in general. So I went back to the local junior college, changed my major to animal sciences, started doing volunteer work, and my loans total $31k so far altogether.
I'm an epileptic, and I don't drive, so I'm not worried about a car payment / insurance. And before you say it: I'm not concerned about my epilepsy getting in the way of my ability as a Vet, my seizures are under control, the DMV just feels otherwise, and I'm not looking to do large animals.

I really, really want to be a DVM but I also don't want to go through 8+ years of school and all of the insane hard work it takes to get there just so I can eat ramen noodles at the end of day. I knew google couldn't be accurate, so I wanted to ask people who were further along in this process than I am.

 

[VetMedVetMed]

So here's the deal with me:
I live in Florida, in Gainesville actually. And I'm hoping to transfer into UF Vet school. I'm an undergrad right now majoring in Animal Sciences. (UF is very selective, so we'll see.) I live with my parents, I'm unemployed. Even if I have to go to another vet school, I'll probably still live with my parents, because they've agreed to make the move for me. (They aren't wild about the west coast though.)

I went to a CVT school for a year, that said it was "non-profit", but was operated like a for-profit, and within 1 year, I racked up $20k worth of loans. I withdrew because they weren't AVMA accredited, nor were they regionally accredited. But I did fall in love with VetMed, and medicine in general. So I went back to the local junior college, changed my major to animal sciences, started doing volunteer work, and my loans total $31k so far altogether.
I'm an epileptic, and I don't drive, so I'm not worried about a car payment / insurance. And before you say it: I'm not concerned about my epilepsy getting in the way of my ability as a Vet, my seizures are under control, the DMV just feels otherwise, and I'm not looking to do large animals.

I really, really want to be a DVM but I also don't want to go through 8+ years of school and all of the insane hard work it takes to get there just so I can eat ramen noodles at the end of day. I knew google couldn't be accurate, so I wanted to ask people who were further along in this process than I am.

Are you at a school getting your Bachelor's degree right now?

 

[VetMedVetMed]

Has anyone taken on a waitering job after vet school to help pay off student loans, and how much did that help?

 

[Minnerbelle]

Has anyone taken on a waitering job after vet school to help pay off student loans, and how much did that help?

Working a relief shift at an emergency hospital or even taking an extra shift at my day practice will pay me $ 300-500 per day. I'm not sure waitressing would be worth it. I highly doubt I could make that much waitressing.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Has anyone taken on a waitering job after vet school to help pay off student loans, and how much did that help?

Agree with Min. You typically have to work a lot of hours to earn a good check as a server, especially since you are almost completely reliant on tips. I know a vet who consults with Idexx in addition to his full-time job, and he said that brings in a good amount of money (he's also board certified...I don't know what you need to do to get that kind of gig). I think there are options out there for extra income without necessarily having to work somewhere random like a restaurant or in retail. Does anyone know any grads that do work in server/retail positions as a side job? Now I'm curious.

 

[LetItSnow]

I know a vet who 'dances' in her off time. Does that count?

(Truth.)

 

[CalliopeDVM]

I know a vet who 'dances' in her off time. Does that count?

(Truth.)

I knew a tech that did the same. It was how she paid her way through school too. With the right wig and makeup, you could be un-identifiable behind the lights


As a new grad (i.e. not board certified in anything), the most typical ways to earn extra cash are taking ER shifts (i.e. doing relief work in your off hours) or arranging for some type of "ask the vet" column in a local paper/on local radio. Be careful of the "ask the vet" situations not to violate your practice guidelines in any way, though.

 

[Minnerbelle]

At home euthanasias and vaccine clinics pay decently well too

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I know a vet who 'dances' in her off time. Does that count?

(Truth.)

Sssshhhhhh!!!!

 

[pinkpuppy9]

I know a vet who 'dances' in her off time. Does that count?

(Truth.)

A med student friend told me that's somewhat common among med students actually! I even read an article in the paper several years back about how, depending on location, that type of dancing can net you several hundred dollars a night (the club it was about was near the airport, it said some of the women claim to have earned several thousand in one night when celebrities come through).

 

[CalliopeDVM]

A med student friend told me that's somewhat common among med students actually! I even read an article in the paper several years back about how, depending on location, that type of dancing can net you several hundred dollars a night (the club it was about was near the airport, it said some of the women claim to have earned several thousand in one night when celebrities come through).

If you can stay away from the drug side of things common in those locations, it's a way to make a very good income. Great for short term goals, I would think.

 

[VetMedVetMed]

Omg a "dancer"..that's scary to me.. Yikes. That isn't the safest job either I wouldn't think..

Waitressing has served me well at some jobs but I see how being a relief vet would be a good option as well. Just so used to watering for so long and have made good money,

 

[StartingoverVet]

I know a vet who 'dances' in his off time. Does that count?

(Truth.)

ftfy

Chippendales rock the world.

 

[moonlitmare]

Anyone have any insight or experience with the loan forgiveness programs? Seems if you go large animal there's a possibility of $10-20K from the USDA or state.....

 

[anutam]

If we are talking about loan repayment – can I ask please?

Federal unsubsidized loans have 6 months grace period and health professionals loan has 1 year. As far as I understood, all loans should be consolidated to start PAYE. But if I consolidate my loans in 6 months after graduation I will lose additional 6 months grace period for health professionals loan, is it right?

So what options do we have? I am so confused there…

 

[dyachei]

If we are talking about loan repayment – can I ask please?

Federal unsubsidized loans have 6 months grace period and health professionals loan has 1 year. As far as I understood, all loans should be consolidated to start PAYE. But if I consolidate my loans in 6 months after graduation I will lose additional 6 months grace period for health professionals loan, is it right?

So what options do we have? I am so confused there…

You don't have to consolidate. But if you do, you will lose certain benefits (like grace period, etc)

 

[cowgirla]

You don't have to consolidate. But if you do, you will lose certain benefits (like grace period, etc)

This. You can be in PAYE without consolidating.

If you consolidate ASAP though you start the countdown to "loan forgiveness" that much sooner. need to decide if it's worth it to you to give up the grace period but be done a few months sooner. There are pros and cons both ways.

 

[deleted498041]

This. You can be in PAYE without consolidating.

If you consolidate ASAP though you start the countdown to "loan forgiveness" that much sooner. need to decide if it's worth it to you to give up the grace period but be done a few months sooner. There are pros and cons both ways.

Crap, I've never heard about this. Can you point me towards anywhere to read more on the effects consolidating have on repayment schedules?
I'm always a little confused about consolidating, and I kind of chalk it up to being such a baby when I started vet school and not having much real life experience. Why do people consolidate loans?

 

[deleted498041]

Working a relief shift at an emergency hospital or even taking an extra shift at my day practice will pay me $ 300-500 per day. I'm not sure waitressing would be worth it. I highly doubt I could make that much waitressing.

This is something I've been really wanting to get into when I graduate. I have a lot of loans (don't we all?) and I want to do as much as I can to live comfortably. With any luck, I'll be doing an internship when I graduate. Can you offer any advice on when you'd feel comfortable doing relief work after graduation? I don't think I'd feel 100% comfortable right after graduating, but I don't think my internship would start for a month or more after graduation if I get the one I want... I don't want to not have a solid paycheck during that time. Speaking of, how do you find out when exactly internships start? All I've been told is that some start later than others. Also, how do you go about getting involved in relief work? I've heard of some people talking about getting involved in some kind of organization or just working relief for one clinic specifically. What are your contractual obligations as far as being available as a relief vet when signed on to either an organization or a clinic?

 

[dyachei]

Crap, I've never heard about this. Can you point me towards anywhere to read more on the effects consolidating have on repayment schedules?
I'm always a little confused about consolidating, and I kind of chalk it up to being such a baby when I started vet school and not having much real life experience. Why do people consolidate loans?

Well, there are several reasons. It's usually more convenient. You also sometimes get a break in the interest rate

 

[Kpowell14]

Speaking of, how do you find out when exactly internships start? All I've been told is that some start later than others.

Most internships list on their respective VIRMP pages when the program starts.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Also, how do you go about getting involved in relief work? I've heard of some people talking about getting involved in some kind of organization or just working relief for one clinic specifically. What are your contractual obligations as far as being available as a relief vet when signed on to either an organization or a clinic?

I would not recommend relief work for a new grad -- starting a new job every week really isn't the best way to start to feel confident in your knowledge and skills. You'd be on your own in an unfamiliar environment with unfamiliar staff and clinic protocols at every new relief job. If you are working "relief" for one clinic on a regular basis (say, every Wednesday), it's not relief work, it's a part time job (legally). There are organizations that work like temp services, matching relief vets with clinics that need relief, but most of the relief vets I know search out the work themselves through advertisements, word of mouth, and contacting clinics directly.

As for ER shifts - I know that some will hire new grads (I was hired for occasional shifts), but I don't recommend it. I was in way over my head when I started taking ER shifts (less than a year out of school), and it was with the help of some great technicians and a lot of good luck that nothing horrible happened to my patients when I was there. I think new grads need to get comfortable with a lot of normal presentations to be comfortable with the abnormal, and they need a lot of confidence and a level head before they deal with the high tension that often accompanies ER work. There are a few who are born to it, but most new grads need a lot more experience in dealing with stressed clients and the fast pace of many ER shifts. The clients are a as much of a stress as the emergency situations.

 

[deleted498041]

Most internships list on their respective VIRMP pages when the program starts.

Wow, I'm a total idiot. As many times as I've checked VIRMP and I've never noticed that it's right below the contact information... Thanks!

I would not recommend relief work for a new grad -- starting a new job every week really isn't the best way to start to feel confident in your knowledge and skills. You'd be on your own in an unfamiliar environment with unfamiliar staff and clinic protocols at every new relief job. If you are working "relief" for one clinic on a regular basis (say, every Wednesday), it's not relief work, it's a part time job (legally). There are organizations that work like temp services, matching relief vets with clinics that need relief, but most of the relief vets I know search out the work themselves through advertisements, word of mouth, and contacting clinics directly.

As for ER shifts - I know that some will hire new grads (I was hired for occasional shifts), but I don't recommend it. I was in way over my head when I started taking ER shifts (less than a year out of school), and it was with the help of some great technicians and a lot of good luck that nothing horrible happened to my patients when I was there. I think new grads need to get comfortable with a lot of normal presentations to be comfortable with the abnormal, and they need a lot of confidence and a level head before they deal with the high tension that often accompanies ER work. There are a few who are born to it, but most new grads need a lot more experience in dealing with stressed clients and the fast pace of many ER shifts. The clients are a as much of a stress as the emergency situations.

Completely agree with you! I would definitely not be comfortable doing it straight out of school. I don't think I'd be comfortable getting a real grown up job right after school either, although tons of people do it. I'll have to do an internship anyway, so that's not a big factor for me at the moment anyway. I guess I was more asking, if I were to get more comfortable and confident in my abilities during the course of my internship, would relief work be something that could be balanced with the internship without killing someone? Is this something I'm legally required to report to my "real job" aka the internship, and do you know if any places actively prohibit people from doing relief work elsewhere?

 

[LetItSnow]

I would not recommend relief work for a new grad -- starting a new job every week really isn't the best way to start to feel confident in your knowledge and skills. You'd be on your own in an unfamiliar environment with unfamiliar staff and clinic protocols at every new relief job. If you are working "relief" for one clinic on a regular basis (say, every Wednesday), it's not relief work, it's a part time job (legally). There are organizations that work like temp services, matching relief vets with clinics that need relief, but most of the relief vets I know search out the work themselves through advertisements, word of mouth, and contacting clinics directly.

As for ER shifts - I know that some will hire new grads (I was hired for occasional shifts), but I don't recommend it. I was in way over my head when I started taking ER shifts (less than a year out of school), and it was with the help of some great technicians and a lot of good luck that nothing horrible happened to my patients when I was there. I think new grads need to get comfortable with a lot of normal presentations to be comfortable with the abnormal, and they need a lot of confidence and a level head before they deal with the high tension that often accompanies ER work. There are a few who are born to it, but most new grads need a lot more experience in dealing with stressed clients and the fast pace of many ER shifts. The clients are a as much of a stress as the emergency situations.

Eh. It's not that bad. And certainly my experienced colleagues would disagree with you. No disrespect intended.

I'm not too convinced about needing to see a lot of normal presentations. Or rather, I'm not convinced that being in GP is advantageous in that way. I mean, I do a lot of physical exams, and as an entire collection, I see plenty of normal heads, eyes, ears, skins, abdomens, hearts, lungs, etc. Your comment sorta suggests that every part of every animal we see on ER is aberrant in some way, so we're never learning what is 'normal' in an animal, and that's not the case. Sure, there's usually something wrong with each patient, but <most> of each patient is normal. Additionally, because the majority of my patients are sick in some way, I get to see a lot more abnormal bloodwork, radiographs, ultrasonography, etc., than a GP - so you learn quick on ER.

This job has been great for me and to me, and when I review my more difficult cases with my mentors there haven't been any major "oops, boy the new grad really screwed that one up!" situations. Definitely some disagreements about dx/tx, but nothing that's changed an outcome or was even remotely close to not approaching standard of care. And it's not that hard to be smart - you get a tricky case, you call someone. Truly acutely critical cases really aren't that hard to manage - you take a deep breath and focus on the basics - breathing, beating, (not) bleeding. Solve those problems, do no harm, and your patient gets to live until it can get to the GP or the right specialist, or you fix it and send it home. It's the complicated internal medicine cases that suck, and those end up in the hands of an IntMed specialist or back at the GP anyway once you stabilize them and start them down the right path.

I'm always surprised when GP docs call me to transfer a case... it will be some IMHA or hemoab or something and they sound all panicky and start spewing randomness about "ohmygod they need a transfusion now now now what do I do it's gonna die!!!!!!!" and I'm sitting there thinking "Just send it over. I don't know why you're getting anxious about THOSE cases considering all the crappy chronic internal medicine things you guys deal with that make ME panic when I think about them." Personally, I think a GP's job sounds 10x harder than what I do. It's all a matter of perspective and what you deal with every day. I get sweaty thinking about how to deal with chronic ear problems or IBD or lymphoma. A collapsed dog with pericardial effusion, a HBC that's broken in a billion places bleeding all over, an IMHA at 6% PCV, a cat that can't breath, a FB or GDV, an ibuprofen ingestion of 750mg/kg (yesterday!)....... those are pretty straightforward in comparison. It's calming to get those cases, because we get them every single day.

The GP, on the other hand, has to manage 10x the number of problems I do, they have to see two to three times the number of cases per day/shift, they have even less time than me for writing records and calling owners, and on top of it they have to recollect all their clients to <some> degree so when they walk in the room they can keep that relationship. My job feels cushy compared to what I hear GPs do. Difficult client for me, on the other hand? Whatever - you're out of my hospital in an hour and out of my mind exactly 1 second later.

Nope. A GP job scares me. This job is way more straightforward. The only real compelling reason I have to leave it would be financial (to move into practice ownership) and scheduling (to work regular days and ditch this crappy day/swing/night shift stuff). It's impossible to get healthy regular sleep patterns doing ER work (at least in my current gig), and I have some very real concerns about whether it's worth it long term considering all the evidence about chronic health issues with poor sleep habits.

I agree that it requires a calm head and an ability to deal with stressful clients. No doubt. And anyone considering doing it should very objectively assess whether they have those capabilities, or it will be overwhelming.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Moonlighting during your internship is likely frowned upon, and you'll likely be too busy during your internship to take much extra shifts (except for like when you're filling in for other interns at your institution). And yes, depending on your internship and permanent employer, there can absolutely be prohibitive clauses in your contract about working for competitors, etc... Also, many people who are doing academic internships are on an institutional license and legally cannot work elsewhere because they don't have a license. An intern who's doing like 60-90% ER work is probably also not very valuable reliefing in GP.

Reliefing in GP is also dodgy unless you know what you're doing in GP. I know some recent grads who have been primarily reliefers for a couple of years out of school, and you can tell (it really shows). It's not so good when you haven't been able to follow your cases through to know what works and what doesn't. That's not necessarily something you learn in a rotating internship either. As with anything else, some people take to it better than others. But there's a lot to be learned from getting beyond the initial presentation and putting together a bandaid until the regular docs take over. It makes a huge difference there when you have a reliefer who's been in practice for a while and has the foresight of what is coming in the next few days, weeks, months for that patient.

On the other hand though, once you're done with your internship you will likely be in much better shape to take relief shifts in ER than most GPs provided that you go through a reputable internship that is high ER coverage.

I've been asked to cover relief shifts at different hospitals, but honestly my time has been way more valuable. And quite frankly, I don't like the idea of needing to change the way I practice, dealing with a whole new crew of people, and potentially brow raising practices that I'd wish I could have known weren't occurring. It's just not worth it to me. But if I were thinking about waitressing, it would be a much better alternative. I took the best of both worlds a few times, and consented to work extra shifts at my own hospital which pays a guaranteed $$ + production on top of that (so an awesome deal)! More often than not though, it's still not worth it and I have the hospital hire an outside relief person instead. It's amazing how important free time becomes when you're looking at an eternity of working.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

Eh. It's not that bad. And certainly my experienced colleagues would disagree with you. No disrespect intended.

I'm not too convinced about needing to see a lot of normal presentations. Or rather, I'm not convinced that being in GP is advantageous in that way. I mean, I do a lot of physical exams, and as an entire collection, I see plenty of normal heads, eyes, ears, skins, abdomens, hearts, lungs, etc. Your comment sorta suggests that every part of every animal we see on ER is aberrant in some way, so we're never learning what is 'normal' in an animal, and that's not the case. Sure, there's usually something wrong with each patient, but <most> of each patient is normal. Additionally, because the majority of my patients are sick in some way, I get to see a lot more abnormal bloodwork, radiographs, ultrasonography, etc., than a GP - so you learn quick on ER. Actually, my comment was more to indicate that there are a lot of variations of normal, and knowing that will help a lot so as to help not over-interpreting atypical as pathologic.

This job has been great for me and to me, and when I review my more difficult cases with my mentors there haven't been any major "oops, boy the new grad really screwed that one up!" situations. Definitely some disagreements about dx/tx, but nothing that's changed an outcome or was even remotely close to not approaching standard of care. And it's not that hard to be smart - you get a tricky case, you call someone. Truly acutely critical cases really aren't that hard to manage - you take a deep breath and focus on the basics - breathing, beating, (not) bleeding. Solve those problems, do no harm, and your patient gets to live until it can get to the GP or the right specialist, or you fix it and send it home. It's the complicated internal medicine cases that suck, and those end up in the hands of an IntMed specialist or back at the GP anyway once you stabilize them and start them down the right path.

I'm always surprised when GP docs call me to transfer a case... it will be some IMHA or hemoab or something and they sound all panicky and start spewing randomness about "ohmygod they need a transfusion now now now what do I do it's gonna die!!!!!!!" and I'm sitting there thinking "Just send it over. I don't know why you're getting anxious about THOSE cases considering all the crappy chronic internal medicine things you guys deal with that make ME panic when I think about them." Personally, I think a GP's job sounds 10x harder than what I do. It's all a matter of perspective and what you deal with every day. I get sweaty thinking about how to deal with chronic ear problems or IBD or lymphoma. A collapsed dog with pericardial effusion, a HBC that's broken in a billion places bleeding all over, an IMHA at 6% PCV, a cat that can't breath, a FB or GDV, an ibuprofen ingestion of 750mg/kg (yesterday!)....... those are pretty straightforward in comparison. It's calming to get those cases, because we get them every single day. As I said, I think it's dealing with the volume, speed, and stressed owners that is far harder than dealing with the medical or surgical cases (most of which you can get help with from books or VIN, even if you're alone). Trying to decide which patient is dying faster to know who gets priority of your limited resources, for instance. It's those reasons that I think it's a bad fit for 95% of new grads. The medicine is easy, it's the clients and staff that are hard!

The GP, on the other hand, has to manage 10x the number of problems I do, they have to see two to three times the number of cases per day/shift, they have even less time than me for writing records and calling owners, and on top of it they have to recollect all their clients to <some> degree so when they walk in the room they can keep that relationship. My job feels cushy compared to what I hear GPs do. Difficult client for me, on the other hand? Whatever - you're out of my hospital in an hour and out of my mind exactly 1 second later.

Nope. A GP job scares me. This job is way more straightforward. The only real compelling reason I have to leave it would be financial (to move into practice ownership) and scheduling (to work regular days and ditch this crappy day/swing/night shift stuff). It's impossible to get healthy regular sleep patterns doing ER work (at least in my current gig), and I have some very real concerns about whether it's worth it long term considering all the evidence about chronic health issues with poor sleep habits.

I agree that it requires a calm head and an ability to deal with stressful clients. No doubt. And anyone considering doing it should very objectively assess whether they have those capabilities, or it will be overwhelming.

See my response in red, above