The pros and cons of going the DO route over the caribbean route

[Adapt]

The following is a list of the pros and cons of going the DO route over the caribbean route, those of which I can think of. I hope that this promotes a healthy discussion to help premeds that are in the situation of deciding between the two routes.

[DO route pros]
1. You won't have problems getting a liscense to practice in all 50 states while you may have problems with this at a caribbean school.
-Due to problems with an oversupply of physicians, Congress and the government from time to time have thought of limiting the amount of FMGs that can come in. This may cause problems for FMGs.

2. You can stay in the US.
-You will be able to stay in the US near family and friends. Plus the living conditions appear to be better here than in the Caribbean.

3. You can do your rotations at basically any hospital in the US while at caribbean schools you may not be able to.
-Some caribbean schools may have problems getting you rotations at good hospitals in the US with the exception of SGU, Ross, and AUC. However, your choices of what hospitals to choose for rotations may still be limited as opposed to DO students.

4. For residency, in general, the order of ranking goes 1.MD 2.DO 3. FMG, so as a DO you may have a better opportunity of getting into a difficult specialty.
-You can always go to a DO residency where only DOs are allowed to apply to. There are 100 DO derm spots and about 80 DO optho spots available only to the 2,500 DO grads a year, and of course not all DOs will go for these spots.

5. For all intents and purposes, the stigma of the two is the same.
-Either way you look at it, there's always going to be someone looking down on you because of your ethnicity, your specialty, or just how you are. Who cares.

6. There are some people who choose DO over MD while I think practically no one chooses to go to the caribbean unless they were rejected to US med schools.

7. You will learn OMM which will give you an extra tool to help your patients better.

8. DO schools are gaining prestige in the US.
-TCOM is ranked 26 and MSU-COM is ranked 15 in the 2005 US News primary care rankings. KCOM is ranked 10 in the family practice rankings. Other DO schools are ranked high throughout some of the other US News specialty rankings including in the rural rankings.

9. It is cheaper to go to a DO school.
-By going to a DO school, you can qualify for Perkins loans and primary care loans. These offer lower rates than private loans and better terms for economic hardship deferment than private loans. You can also apply for the NHSC scholarship and the HSPS scholarship which allow your medical school to be free if you do a service obligation.

There are also state DO schools like TCOM which offer instate tuition to its residents, $7K a year. I believe caribbean schools do not offer any of these.

[DO route cons]
1. It is not an MD while the caribbean is.
-Obviously this is a big one. If you are willing to overcome all the obstacles and give up all the advantages of the DO route for that MD then by all means go for it. I understand that for some people the letters are important. More power to them.

2. You may have to explain what a DO is to patients.
-At times, patients will ask you what a DO is. Obviously this can get cumbersome. You could either have a prepared short 1 minute answer or just give them a brocure.

Also, you could just not wear the letters DO on your coat and patients won't even know you are one. Many DOs do this and it really doesn't affect how they work. People would just think they were MDs.

3. You may have problems practicing out of the country while at the caribbean your degree is recognized everywhere.
-Currently though, there are some 40 or so countries that give DOs full practice rights and this is improving each year. Anyone interested in this should look at the list the AOA has that talks about DO rights in other countries.

4. With the issue of stigma, the DO will always be there while you can hide that you went to a caribbean school.
-This is true. Again though, you could just not put DO on your coat and easily avoid this problem of stigma. For some, like me, it wouldn't matter if I had DO on my coat.

5. You may not like doing OMM.
-Some DO students don't like it and see it as a necessary burden to do while in med school. Only about 5% of practicing DOs do it so there's nothing wrong with not using it.

In my opinion, if I had the choice I would pick the DO route.

You can have the comfort of living in the US while in med school, pay a lower overall cost due to government loans, are practically guaranteed a residency in the US if you don't fail out of school, and have an opportunity at the toughest residencies such as rads, optho, and derm through the DO residency route.

I know that there are many more people who would choose the caribbean route over the DO route for their own personal reasons that maybe weren't stated here. All I can say is, to each his own. After all, we're all doctors in the end.

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[CuteNurse]

If you were accepted to two US MD programs why not just go to one of those ? Why the long drawn out post about the carribean etc...? If you choose to be a DO instead of an MD then great and congrats on the acceptances. Those who choose the carribean have most likely explored their options and just do not want to be a DO OR did not get into a DO program either. Besides, who wants to hide or be ashamed of their title for their entire medical career ?

 

[Megalofyia]

"because of problems with an oversupply of physicians"


There isn't an oversupply of physicians. In fact there is a shortage of physicians in this country.

 

[okiamhot]

yea, yea, there is no need to tell us what you think. it is those greedy doctors at the AMSA that are forcing lots of americans leaving usa in order to study medicine.

that is very contradictive against the founding fathers' ideas. usa is suppose to be a place where anyone can make it as long as s/he has the determination.

there are law schools that operate at night time, i don't see why there are not enough med. schools for all the students who want to study medicine.

 

[CuteNurse]

yea, yea, there is no need to tell us what you think. it is those greedy doctors at the AMSA that are forcing lots of americans leaving usa in order to study medicine.

that is very contradictive against the founding fathers' ideas. usa is suppose to be a place where anyone can make it as long as s/he has the determination.

there are law schools that operate at night time, i don't see why there are not enough med. schools for all the students who want to study medicine.

You know that is very interesting. I never thought of that before? I went to nursing school at night and my cousin went to Law School at night. It wouldn't even be about having a job in the daytime, what about people with kids etc...

 

[CuteNurse]

You're right adapt it has been discussed TO DEATH so again, why the long post about something that has been beaten to death when your opinion is not that valuable because you are not forced to make this decision. (NO I AM NOT BEING RUDE) It's kind of like a rich, childless woman who has never been pregnant giving a poor, single, mother of two who is pregnant a list on the pros and cons of an abortion. She can spout about it all day but does anyone really want her opinion on the subject? Just being really honest about an important subject. Why are you on the carribean board? You should be over celebrating on the DO/Allo boards with the rest of the US'ers. Again, congrats on the acceptances but come on....

 

[ByrnBabyByrn]

Adapt, I think a problem people may have with your post concerns who it is coming from. You turned down US MD schools for DO for crying out loud. Obviously your opinions are going to be biased no matter what your intentions are. And I think people who read this forum are bright enough to consider bias when reading posts. Personally I find that the louder a person voices their opinion, the weaker their argument.

Let's be real...most people are aware of the pros/cons you discussed. The pros/cons may be different depending on the individual. There is a reason this argument has been beaten to death and the reason is that obviously there are people who don't share the same opinions you do. So I'm not quite sure what a post like yours can accomplish besides bringing back an issue that has been argued many times before.

 

[meanderson]

4. For residency, the order of ranking goes 1.MD 2.DO 3. FMG, so as a DO you at least have the opportunity of getting into a difficulty specialty.
-You can always go to a DO residency where only DOs are allowed to apply to. There are 100 DO derm spots and about 80 DO optho spots available only to the 2,500 DO grads a year, and of course not all DOs will go for these spots.

[

Great post overall, but a small correction. There aren't anywhere near close to 100 derm spots/year. There are either 13 or 17 total. I can't remember. After all, there are only 240 allo derm spots so 100 DO spots would seem a little off.

For someone who really wants to do derm(and I'm not sure why a premed would know they really want to do derm), they really should prefer the US md strongly.

 

[Adapt]

Great post overall, but a small correction. There aren't anywhere near close to 100 derm spots/year. There are either 13 or 17 total. I can't remember. After all, there are only 240 allo derm spots so 100 DO spots would seem a little off.

For someone who really wants to do derm(and I'm not sure why a premed would know they really want to do derm), they really should prefer the US md strongly.

Hello meanderson, good question. The following link shows 20 DO derm programs in the US. If you count the number of people in each program, it is about 98 spots. This is where I got the 100 figure.

There is a question of if they are funded or not. As I understand it, sometimes they are not funded meaning the residents don't get paid. However these spots are still competitive because after all it's derm.

http://www.aocd.org/cgi-local/membership/Member_Display.pl?Action=ResProg_Show

 

[Rdhdstpkd]

Adapt-

Your points are plenty valid, but I agree that it's strange you are making them given you've never had to deal with the struggle. I made the choice to attend a carib school over a DO, and I used similar reasoning when coming to my decision. Don't think for a second that I didn't consider all my options- no one leaves their family, friends, and country behind and spends hundreds of thousands of dollars without careful thought.

I think it's sad that a stigma is attached to either path- it's simple a poorly informed judgment to assume that DOs and FMGs are 'lesser' physicians.


A couple things that I'm curious about/should be considered:

-the AOA doesn't list the foreign countries that have approved full practice rights to a DO- it only states that there are 40. I'd like to know which 40. I will certainly be practicing abroad and it definitely factored into my decision to stay away from DO.

-DO is a very accepted alternative in the midwest, but on the east coast they don't seem to be as prominently figured in the healthcare system. There are plenty of states listed on the AOA website that appear to have very few DOs- my home state doesn't have any according to the list! A hospital that I'm currently affiliated with in New England doesn't hire DOs, but they have a few FMGs in prominent positions. My mentor advised me that working in the South or in New England, I get a better result with a Carib MD vs a DO - if I planned to settle in the midwest then DO might work for me. Certainly his opinion didn't 'make' the decision for me, but his point did factor into the process.

-US Allo is hands down the place to go if you want the residency of your choice, but even then nothing's guaranteed. It's nice for DO student that they have their own residency programs, but I understand from this board that many DO students prefer allo residency spots. Anyway, my point is DOs and FMGs/USIMGs fill a lot of primary care spots. I'm curious about the number of specialty spots in allo programs awarded to DOs vs USIMGs percentage wise. Also, there are some carib schools that have respectable match lists with plenty of specialties represented like EM, Gen. Surgery, and OB with a smattering of Derm, Ortho, and even a couple Optho and Plastics- so being a USIMG can't rank you at the bottom all the time.

- I get what you're saying about loan interests and service obligation. It does make DO cheaper (in most cases) in the long run, but it doesn't make DO cheap - PCOM:32,000 (tuition and fees- year 1), Ross: ~24,000 (tuition and fees for year 1 - I'm estimating from the website). I agree the interest makes a huge difference, but I think you see my point.

-Now I'm going to go out on a limb and make a comment that I can't back up with experience, however it's the way I feel so feel free to yell at me if you have more experience and thing I'm just absolutely wrong:

I really don't like your argument about hiding the fact you went to a foreign or osteopathic school. If you have a problem telling people where you went to medical school or putting the letters D.O. on your jacket you are not being true to yourself in the decision making process. If you decided going abroad is the best decision for you, then you must be confident in the education you will be receiving- and thus, once graduated, you should be proud. You passed the same tests as everybody else. You may face judgment from a few people and it might be embarrassing at times, but if you feel that you'll have to forever hide where you went to school then you aren't making the right choice. Same goes for putting the letters D.O. on your white coat. Be proud of your accomplishments and the fact that you found a way to make your dream happen. Accept that the stigma exists and do you part to change it, but don't hide from your experience/decision/accomplishment.


So, Adapt, know that most of us on the Carib board have really thought all of this through long and hard before deciding to go carib. Your points are nothing new- some more valid than others. It's is important to realize that pros and cons should be looked at on an individual basis- it's hard to make one sweeping generalization- 'DO is better' - and have it apply to everybody. I guess I think that given the stigma that both groups face perhaps I just don't like the DO vs. USIMG arguments- comparison is certainly fine, but we all know how these boards can get, and pitting the groups against each other doesn't do anybody any good.

 

[meanderson]

Hello meanderson, good question. The following link shows 20 DO derm programs in the US. If you count the number of people in each program, it is about 98 spots. This is where I got the 100 figure.

There is a question of if they are funded or not. As I understand it, sometimes they are not funded meaning the residents don't get paid. However these spots are still competitive because after all it's derm.

http://www.aocd.org/cgi-local/membership/Member_Display.pl?Action=ResProg_Show

Oh ok...that makes sense. I was just assuming you were talking about the number of derm slots/year because the figure 2500 DO grads/year was used. 100 derm counting all pgy years does sound reasonable.

 

[gpannu]

DO is something i've thought about as well; however, adapt in IMO the major drawback to the D.O. degree is the lack of mobility. The AOA list is just indicative of countries that are looking into the DO degree. The list does not mean that a DO can practice in that country.

For instance, in Canada the legislation regarding DO's is very obsecure. Some provinces view them as Chiropractor where as other provinces grant them temporary licences. The UK has a similar perseptivce regarding DO's. I believe the DO is an excellent option for a student that is interested in practicing in the US; however, i'd advise against it if your deisre is to practice abroad.

 

[Adapt]

Since there is much talk about DOs practicing out of the US, the following is a list from the AOA of where DOs have full practice rights and where they don't.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2322

Below is an excerpt of the article:

AOA INTERNATIONAL LICENSURE SUMMARY
April 2003

This summary of licensure availability in international countries for graduates of United States osteopathic medical schools is revised and expanded on a continual basis. Some countries have definite policies regarding either the licensure of D.O.s, the licensure of internationally trained physicians and health care practitioners and/or the licensure of non-citizens. A few countries have consistently refused to grant U.S.-trained D.O.s full practice rights, often permitting them to perform only manipulation and sometimes refusing to grant them any type of practice. Other countries, however, are simply not educated on the qualifications of U.S.-trained D.O.s and their equivalence in education, training and practice to M.D.s. To that end, communication with international health care officials can be a time consuming and formidable task.

There are a few issues to keep in mind when researching licensure possibilities in foreign countries. Many countries that were or continue to be under British influence adhere to Britain's definition of an "osteopath," a non-physician health care practitioner who practices only manipulation. Due to the similarity of the titles, many of these countries refuse to grant U.S.-trained D.O.s practice rights beyond the scope of manipulation.

Further, the procedure by which international countries consider granting physician licensure to foreigners is not consistent among all countries. The procedure can take the form of a simple interview with a Minister of Health or Medical Board, a handshake with a governmental insider or the submission to a battery of examinations, intensive residencies and the like.

Also, the intent and type of practice sought by the U.S.-trained D.O. might warrant a substantially different application procedure. For example, those who are interested in working on a volunteer basis or for a mission often find the process less hindered by paperwork and legal regulations. For this reason, an applicant should be as clear as possible about his or her intentions when making a written inquiry.

The following is a catalog of countries in which the AOA has investigated osteopathic licensure. Included in each country's listing is the year in which the last request for updated licensure status was made, the scope of osteopathic practice in that country, an overview of issues specific to that country and the contact for licensure inquiries. As you will note, information regarding many of these countries is out-of-date and has not been reevaluated. In addition, licensure status can change from year to year - so it is encouraged that the individual contact the appropriate authority well in advance of an expected visit or move.

Should you wish to investigate licensure possibilities in a country not listed below or would like to have more information regarding one of the listed countries, please contact the AOA Division of State Government Affairs, 142 East Ontario, Chicago IL 60611; (800) 621-1773 ext. 8184. Further, it would be of great help to the AOA and other osteopathic physicians if the AOA Division of State Government Affairs were notified of the outcome of any inquiries. In addition, if correspondence from international health agencies is received, please forward copies for the files maintained at the AOA.

Below is a summary of DO practice rights of all countries:

Unlimited

Argentina, Austria, Bahamas, Bermuda, Brazil, Canada (Alberta, British Columbia, Manitoba, New Brunswick, Northwest Territories, Nova Scotia, Ontario, Quebec, Yukon Territory), Cayman Islands, Central African Empire, Chile, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Greece, Guyana, Honduras, Hong Kong, Italy, Lebanon, Liberia, Luxembourg, Micronesia, Nepal, Nigeria, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Russia/Commonwealth of Independent States, St. Lucia, Saudi Arabia, Sierra Leone, Sweden, Taiwan, Tanzania, United Arab Emirates, Vietnam, Zambia

Restricted to OMM

Barbados, Canada (Saskatchewan), France, Great Britain, Norway, South Africa, Zimbabwe

Restricted to medical missions

Indonesia, Jamaica

Varies ? case by case basis

Australia, Netherlands, New Zealand, Pakistan

To be determined

Canada (Newfoundland), Israel

No response to request

Bolivia, Cambodia, Denmark, Egypt, Ghana, Guatemala, Iran, Japan, Kenya, Korea, Kuwait, Laos, Nicaragua, Peru, Philippines, Romania, St. Kitts, Syria, Thailand, Turkey, Venezuela

Denied

Aruba, Belize, Canada (Prince Edward Island), India, Ireland, Malaysia, Mexico, Morocco, Scotland, Singapore, Spain, Switzerland, Uganda, Ukraine

 

[Adapt]

-the AOA doesn't list the foreign countries that have approved full practice rights to a DO- it only states that there are 40. I'd like to know which 40. I will certainly be practicing abroad and it definitely factored into my decision to stay away from DO.

The list by the AOA is in my above post.

-DO is a very accepted alternative in the midwest, but on the east coast they don't seem to be as prominently figured in the healthcare system. There are plenty of states listed on the AOA website that appear to have very few DOs- my home state doesn't have any according to the list! A hospital that I'm currently affiliated with in New England doesn't hire DOs, but they have a few FMGs in prominent positions. My mentor advised me that working in the South or in New England, I get a better result with a Carib MD vs a DO - if I planned to settle in the midwest then DO might work for me. Certainly his opinion didn't 'make' the decision for me, but his point did factor into the process.

It can be argued that it is the most accepted in the east. Most of the DO schools are in the east including PCOM, NYCOM, and others. You could most likely get a job just as easily going DO or Caribbean. Just because one hospital may not hire DOs doesn't mean all won't and I bet I could find you hospitals that don't hire caribbean graduates.

Also, if your mentor was not a DO, he or she may not have any real basis for that conclusion.

-US Allo is hands down the place to go if you want the residency of your choice, but even then nothing's guaranteed. It's nice for DO student that they have their own residency programs, but I understand from this board that many DO students prefer allo residency spots. Anyway, my point is DOs and FMGs/USIMGs fill a lot of primary care spots. I'm curious about the number of specialty spots in allo programs awarded to DOs vs USIMGs percentage wise. Also, there are some carib schools that have respectable match lists with plenty of specialties represented like EM, Gen. Surgery, and OB with a smattering of Derm, Ortho, and even a couple Optho and Plastics- so being a USIMG can't rank you at the bottom all the time.

This is true. After looking at the matchlist of SGU, it is very comparable to many DO lists such as NYCOM. However, my point is if they are both comparable, then why go through all the obstacles of going to the caribbean if you can stay in the US and get the same thing. Also, the residency point can be argued even more since DOs have their own residencies.

As far as IMG and the percentage in allo, I'm talking about caribbean students and not all IMGs. Obviously many IMGs come from other countries and attend medical school there. Also remember that many DOs enter into DO specialty residencies so the percentages might be skewed.

I really don't like your argument about hiding the fact you went to a foreign or osteopathic school. If you have a problem telling people where you went to medical school or putting the letters D.O. on your jacket you are not being true to yourself in the decision making process. If you decided going abroad is the best decision for you, then you must be confident in the education you will be receiving- and thus, once graduated, you should be proud.

I agree. I will not have a problem telling people I am a DO and will proudly present it on my coat. However, I know that some people may not want to deal with explaining to patients what a DO may be. From what I gather, occasionally a couple times a month some curious patient will ask a DO what it means. Usually a one minute answer may suffice but some DOs may get annoyed explaining at all.

Thus it really may not be an issue of not being proud of it but rather one of convenience.

Rdhdstpkd, you do bring up some interesting points though. I would like to add that location is of utmost importance to me and I could care less about the degree.

 

[Rdhdstpkd]

Adapt- I know what you mean about staying close to home, I would have gone to my state school if I'd gotten in, but, that being said, part of me relishes the idea of a different cultural experience. Will it be a little stressful to be in someplace new? Sure it will. Will my experience be a hundred times more interesting because I will be trying something new, in a new place, with a different culture and different people? Of course it will. That has a lot of appeal. It's not my first choice, but it is my most interesting.


Forgot to add:

It's surprisingly difficult to find a DO in the MA area. There are a few but they aren't too common. Just so you know. And, my mentor isn't a DO, but he has a lot of respect for them. He just made the observation that you really don't see to many in my area, but there are plenty of FMGs.

 

[gpannu]

Sorry my friend either this list is not updated or is misleading. I've contacted the AOA president affilated in Canada. His name is Ted Finlay he practices as a family physcian in Ontario.

Although that list states that in some provinces in Canada grant unlimited rights for DO's I can assure you Ontario does not grant unlimited rights. Fruthermore Mr. Finaly had stated that outside of the U.S. the DO designation is not the legal equivalent of a MD. In fact, in Ontario the DO is akin to a Chiropractor.

Anyways, I do not wish to critcize the degree. I think most inviduals on this message board know that an allopathic MD is favorable to a DO or foriegn MD degree with repsect to reputation. As many have stated a DO and Foriegn MD have there advantages and disadvantages and it us up to the individual to decide which degree fufils their needs best. I believe there is no such argument that a DO is better or vice-versa. If my ulitmate goal was to practice in the US i'd pursue a DO; however, if the individual wanted the oppourtunity to practice elsewhere i'd obtain an MD (it's much more mobile than a DO).

 

[Adapt]

If my ulitmate goal was to practice in the US i'd pursue a DO; however, if the individual wanted the oppourtunity to practice elsewhere i'd obtain an MD (it's much more mobile than a DO).

And this is exactly my point. I did say that if you want to practice in the US, DO is more advantageous than the Caribbean.

As far as Ontario and so forth, if that's what he said than I guess. If a person knows for sure he or she wants to practice out of the country, then he or she should call the person in charge in that coutnry and ask spefically if DOs are given full practice rights. Perhaps the list is a bit may be outdated. If it is your future you're talking about, it would be better to do more research on it.

Also, I really don't believe Dr. Finaly knows the entire story about DOs outside of the US so I wouldn't really trust his opinion that DOs are not seen as equivalent to MDs in other countries.

All this isn't really important to me though because I intend on practicing in the US.

 

[Adapt]

It's surprisingly difficult to find a DO in the MA area. There are a few but they aren't too common. Just so you know.

The following link is a search engine that finds DOs by state. If you put MA under state, it comes up with 190 DOs in Massachusetts.

They consist of orthopedic surgeons, pediatric anesthesiologists, ob-gyns, cardiologists, plastic surgeons, dermatologists, emergency medicine physicians, and radiologists. I saw 5 orthopedic surgeons and 1 dermatoglist out of the 190 in MA alone. Not bad for just a DO.

http://directory.aoa-net.org/cfm/PublicSearch.cfm

 

[gpannu]

Sorry I should correct my self: Dr.Finlay practices as a Dr. in Alberta

 

[JohnnyOU]

I have no idea why anyone would want a DO over an MD, but that is 100% their business.

I lived right down the street from one of the countries better DO schools (OSU in Tulsa Oklahoma; ranked 13th in rural medicine/17th in family medicine)

But I chose to move two hours away to get an MD at OU instead.

If there is any aspect of DO theory that really appeals to me, I can always learn that particular technique with little effort after I have my MD.

Same goes for every other MD out there... if there is any aspect of DO practice that would help us better serve our patients... just learn it on top of your MD. We're going to be continually learning throughout our career anyway, so you may as well use a DO technique here and there IF there is any of it that appeals to you.

If I had to choose between a DO school and a top carib. school like SGU, AUC, etc... I'd definitely choose the MD every time.

Just my opinion,
Johnny

 

[Adapt]

If I had to choose between a DO school and a top carib. school like SGU, AUC, etc... I'd definitely choose the MD every time.

Just my opinion,
Johnny

It's cool. As I said, some people are so enamored with the MD they will go to great lengths to get it including going to the caribbean.

You just had to go 2 hours a way to get your MD so it's easy for you to say that.

 

[daelroy]

The question you should ask yourself is why would you choose the Carribean over a DO? The Carribean is an MD title without the perks. Yeah, you are an MD but your choice of residency,and location is extremely limited. You will also pay more money considering you will be forced to traveling. And Carribean grads have to do better on the USMLE than MD and DO grads just to stay competitive. Yeah, it's an MD title, but Carribean grads will always be seen as being inferior to DO grads because anyone can get into a Carribean school. DO's have lower entrance stats than MD's but they are still competitive with a n average GPA hovering around a 3.5 and an MCAT entrance score of 26-27. You can buy your way into Carribean school and some of those schools like Ross don't even use the MCAT as an admissions tool. AUC doesn't even require the MCAT.

I have several friends that have chose the Carribean route over the DO route and they have all done so for the same ignorant and unfounded reason: the MD title will lure more patients than the DO title.

I spoke with one friend about this and this was his rationale: "Yeah, but when a patient looks in the phone book and sees 'DO', he is going to look the other way."

First of all, how many patients choose a doctor based on what they read in the Yellow Pages? No one I know has selected their physician based on their ad in the yellow pages. Everyone chooses their doctor based on their reputation or referrals from other patients. If you are a great doctor, it doesn't matter whether you are an u.S. trained MD, DO or Carribean grad.

The DO route is better for several reasons

1. DO's get precedence over Foreign MD's in residency selection. Sure, there are exceptions but as a general rule DO's are favored. Some hospitals on the east coast tend to favor Carribean grads because of their experience with them in the past. But if you want to settle down in the midwest or west coast, it's hands down DO.

2. DO's can specialize by entering their own osteopathic specialized residencies. Foreign grads are limited to primary care unless they do amazing on Step 1 and by amazing, I'm talking about 230+ and realistically 240+. And that too even with amazing board scores, they are still shunned from the most competitive MD residencies because MD's and DO's are given precendence over them.

3. DO live and train in the U.S.

4. DO's don't have to travel from state to state for each rotation. The amount of travel that Carribean grads do during 3rd and 4th year is insane.


It is a no-brainer in my opinion. Like I said, the only reason why people choose the Carribean over DO is because they are afraid of the initials. Don't limit yourself career wise or lifestyle wise by settling on the Carribean route if you can get into a DO school. It makes me laugh how this is even a topic of debate. Yes, a real MD may be worth pursuing over a DO program. But a foreign MD title lacks all the perks that a US MD title has. Don't waste your time. The Carribean route is a long and arduous process full of red tape and inconvenience not to mention EXPENSIVE.

If you can't get into a DO school, the Carribean route is fine. You will still be doctor in the end and will be successfull. It's just that the journey from point A to point B for Carribean grads is a lot rockier than it is for DO's. Keep that in mind.

 

[daelroy]

Great post overall, but a small correction. There aren't anywhere near close to 100 derm spots/year. There are either 13 or 17 total. I can't remember. After all, there are only 240 allo derm spots so 100 DO spots would seem a little off.

For someone who really wants to do derm(and I'm not sure why a premed would know they really want to do derm), they really should prefer the US md strongly.

You are almost correct. It's 20 Derm spots. That might not seem like a lot of spots but considering that only DO's qualify for them and there are only 20 DO schools in the country compared to 125 MD schools, your chances aren't significantly improved by applying as an MD especially considering 2-3 DO's match for one of those 240 MD derm spots each year. Also, DO graduates shy away from derm for several reasons. Osteopathic derm is an unorganized and uncertain process. You don't match for it. You apply during your intern year so many top DO grads prefer matching into something that is more certain. Also, more DO's than MD's lean toward primary care fields so there is even less competition among DO grads for derm. Derm is one field where I think being a DO carries an advantage.

 

[Adapt]

Daelroy, you brought up some good points in your posts. That's basically what I said but in a different way. It all comes down the those initials of MD which they some people are willing to jump obstacles for especially if you're only planning to practice in the US.

A question about the number of derm spots, I posted a link in this thread that shows 20 DO derm programs with 98 spots opened. Where did you get the 20 number. I'm confused now.

 

[skypilot]

It's surprisingly difficult to find a DO in the MA area. There are a few but they aren't too common. Just so you know. And, my mentor isn't a DO, but he has a lot of respect for them. He just made the observation that you really don't see to many in my area, but there are plenty of FMGs.

I think there are a lot more DOs in Massachusetts than you realize. Look in the back of the UMass Med School Catalog. There are about 30 DOs on the Faculty. There are also DOs on the faculty at Harvard and Boston University. UNE in Biddeford Maine is only an hour and a half from Boston so this is not surprising. For the most part I think they are there but hidden from view by their affiliation with their specialty.

 

[Rdhdstpkd]

I think there are a lot more DOs in Massachusetts than you realize. Look in the back of the UMass Med School Catalog. There are about 30 DOs on the Faculty. There are also DOs on the faculty at Harvard and Boston University. UNE in Biddeford Maine is only an hour and a half from Boston so this is not surprising. For the most part I think they are there but hidden from view by their affiliation with their specialty.

Thank you for the information. I'm sure there are more out there than I realize. A few years back I had a friend apply to DO and she needed a rec from a DO. She was trying to find a DO in the hospital where we did research to write the rec, but there was only 1 and she did her training abroad (not sure what's up with that) and so she didn't qualify to write the rec. My friend had a difficult time fulfilling this part of the application. My original point was just that I know many DO s who practice in Missouri, but I personally haven't met many in Massachusetts. On the flip side I've met tons of FMGs doing fellowships here in MA. Anyway, I know there are DOs around, just not very many.

Also, daelroy, your info is incorrect. The stats you mentioned are even with SGU. SGU, Ross, and AUC all require the MCAT.

Anyway, as other posters have mentioned, most of us in this forum have already made our decision after thinking everything through. That being said, some of the statements about why DO is better are a little out of place. What's better for one is not necessarily better for another. What's best for the individual is what counts.

 

[skypilot]

Not to beat a dead horse or anything but UMass Medical offers an Osteopathic Traditional Rotating Internship program that is dually approved by both the AOA and ACGME.

http://www.umassmed.edu/medicine/residency/osteopathic.cfm

 

[umasskid]

check out baystate in springfield mass. its a tufts affiliate and has plenty of D.O.'s

 

[JohnnyOU]

3. DO live and train in the U.S.

Personally, I would LOVE to live on a nice island for 2 years

I know there are downsides to it, like everything else, but all in all, I think it would be pretty cool

Johnny

ps... if I am ever eaten by a shark, I will retract all previous statements about an island being cool!

 

[ny skindoc]

A question about the number of derm spots, I posted a link in this thread that shows 20 DO derm programs with 98 spots opened. Where did you get the 20 number. I'm confused now.

Do not confuse,total number of spots for three years residency vs entering positions per year.The numbers generally vary from year to year.

 

[stephew]

I love the DO IMG debates, which generally are openly hostile to thinly veiled contempt posing as a demonstration of fake respect for the other guy's view a la any political debate (see above).

i have said it before and i will say it again: these DO vs IMG debates show 1) people will take a vehement stance on anything and 2) you are blessed with wonderful lives if these are the sort of things you have vehement stances on. And may it so continue.

 

[daelroy]

Also, daelroy, your info is incorrect. The stats you mentioned are even with SGU. SGU, Ross, and AUC all require the MCAT.

SGU has always required the MCAT. Ross only requires you take the MCAT but it's not used as an evaluation tool. You can get admitted and then take the MCAT afterward and just drop off your score as you matriculate. AUC may have recently changed their policy but as of 2 years ago, they didn't even require the MCAT. Ross' acceptance rate according to a New York Times article was 70% which is ridiculously high. I'm certain AUC's acceptance rate is close if not higher than that. SGU, however, has far more respectable admissions standards which I will admit but they still pale in comparison to the admission standards of a DO school. And speaking of admissions stats, have you noticed how Carribean schools never post their admissions stats; it's a little embarrassing for a medical school to post an acceptance rate of 50% or higher. Anyway, nearly every Carribean grad will admit this as they have stated on numerous occassions that it's easy being admitted but much harder remaining in the programs because unlike a U.S. school, you aren't spoon fed everything. And I agree with those Carribean grads on that issue. It's much harder graduating from a Carribean school than a U.S. school because you essentially have to teach yourself nearly everything without the support structure that U.S. schools provide. Carribean grads are mentally tough and discplined people when they graduate. I respect them for that.

 

[daelroy]

Personally, I would LOVE to live on a nice island for 2 years

I know there are downsides to it, like everything else, but all in all, I think it would be pretty cool

Johnny

ps... if I am ever eaten by a shark, I will retract all previous statements about an island being cool!

You haven't been out of Oklahoma much have you? Otherwise, you would learn that there is huge difference between living in Hawaii vs. Dominica (Ross) or Grenada (St. George). Think Mexico not Maui. The islands are third world nations that are extremely poor. It's not about drinking Mai Tais and dancing on the beach like in some MTV Spring Break special. Island life means hurricanes, lots of rain, power outages (studying by candle light and losing your AC in 90 degree weather), terrible food(There is no Taco Bell or Pizza when you get the munchies), insects etc. Of course, let's not forget about crime. Want to go grocery shopping? Sorry there is no Albertsons there; that meat you are buying may or may not be safe...sorry no USDA either.

My friends at AUC had both of their cars eventually broken into and it's pretty common there. There isn't a lot of violent crime but a lot of petty theft exists on the islands. It usually occurs when students are at class. They steal electronics quite frequently like your computer. The medical students are the wealthiest people on the islands and the natives know that which is why theft is common there. You better hide your electronics equipment because your place will be broken into. There is no 911 there. That's one of the biggest fallacies about attending school in the Carribean. St. Maarten (AUC) has more westernized creature comforts like fast food, casinos and fun bars but they still have their share of island problems too. Point is, the setting is the drawback to attending school in the Carribean. It's not an asset. Carribean grads deal with it but they don't like it. In fact, many students leave the Ross and SGU because they can't hack the living conditions; it has nothing to do with the school. They enter these schools with the same impression you have and then they bolt when reality hits them. Dominica and Grenada especially have brutal conditions. If I had to attend a school in the Carribean, it would be AUC because their island is most tolerable of the three.

 

[Adapt]

Ross' acceptance rate according to a New York Times article was 70% which is ridiculously high. I'm certain AUC's acceptance rate is close if not higher than that.

Wow that's insane. Reading the USNews Rankings, I remember COMP's acceptance rate was 20% and I thought that was high. It was actually one of the highest acceptance rates of DO schools next to NYCOM's. I think the DO school in New Jersey had a 6% rate which seemed kind of low.

 

[daelroy]

Wow that's insane. Reading the USNews Rankings, I remember COMP's acceptance rate was 20% and I thought that was high. It was actually one of the highest acceptance rates of DO schools next to NYCOM's. I think the DO school in New Jersey had a 6% rate which seemed kind of low.

On a side now, interesting to see that this thread became a sticky. Good times.

It's quite frankly a joke when applying to Ross and AUC. They take people three times a year as opposed to once a year for US schools so you can see how easy it is to get into one of those schools. You can start in Fall, Winter or Spring. Those schools are cash cows which is why they will accept nearly anyone who applies.

 

[JohnnyOU]

You haven't been out of Oklahoma much have you? Otherwise, you would learn that there is huge difference between living in Hawaii vs. Dominica (Ross) or Grenada (St. George). Think Mexico not Maui. The islands are third world nations that are extremely poor. It's not about drinking Mai Tais and dancing on the beach like in some MTV Spring Break special. Island life means hurricanes, lots of rain, power outages (studying by candle light and losing your AC in 90 degree weather), terrible food(There is no Taco Bell or Pizza when you get the munchies), insects etc. Of course, let's not forget about crime. Want to go grocery shopping? Sorry there is no Albertsons there; that meat you are buying may or may not be safe...sorry no USDA either.

My friends at AUC had both of their cars eventually broken into and it's pretty common there. There isn't a lot of violent crime but a lot of petty theft exists on the islands. It usually occurs when students are at class. They steal electronics quite frequently like your computer. The medical students are the wealthiest people on the islands and the natives know that which is why theft is common there. You better hide your electronics equipment because your place will be broken into. There is no 911 there. That's one of the biggest fallacies about attending school in the Carribean. St. Maarten (AUC) has more westernized creature comforts like fast food, casinos and fun bars but they still have their share of island problems too. Point is, the setting is the drawback to attending school in the Carribean. It's not an asset. Carribean grads deal with it but they don't like it. In fact, many students leave the Ross and SGU because they can't hack the living conditions; it has nothing to do with the school. They enter these schools with the same impression you have and then they bolt when reality hits them. Dominica and Grenada especially have brutal conditions. If I had to attend a school in the Carribean, it would be AUC because their island is most tolerable of the three.

I've talked to hundreds of people (and read their posts) who loved the island life... and I've seen thousands of photos from various islands and they look good to me. Sure there are dumpy areas just like in california and new york... but a nice sunny beach is a nice sunny beach.

Some people are *ussies and need air conditioning 24/7...or they think OMG OMG OMG I saw a bug!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!! Or needs their mom within a mile from them at all times.

And yes I've been out of Oklahoma...lived by south padre island and mexico for 4 years...in dallas for 1 year... vacationed 2 weeks in the bahamas...a month in Boston...and about 50 other cities in the USA. So spare me your closed-minded "anyone from the midwest must ride a horse to work" mindset.

Living on some of these islands would be a kicka** experience...but it's maybe not for momma's boys and daddy's girls?

And if you think mexico is a dump...then you haven't seen all of it.

J~

 

[meanderson]

I've talked to hundreds of people (and read their posts) who loved the island life... and I've seen thousands of photos from various islands and they look good to me. Sure there are dumpy areas just like in california and new york... but a nice sunny beach is a nice sunny beach.
J~

But most of the beaches near the medical schools on grenada and dominica aren't nice and sunny. The sand is grey/black and not many people want to get in the water.

Prices for air conditioning are ridiculous. Food options are very limited. Flying a small plane back to the mainland cost a fortune. Phone calls to the states? Unless you have lots of money to burn, you'll have to make those using an internet phone service, but good luck having the local dominicans who have a monopoly on it set up the cables. You can't ship heavy electronics from the states, so basically you have to hope there is a decent used tv for sale from a leaving student. Personal safety, transportation, living conditions, everything......it just sucks over there.

and who have you been talking to that likes being a medical student in dominica or grenada. I've yet to see a single post where a ross student says they prefer living in dominica to the US.

 

[Adapt]

who have you been talking to that likes being a medical student in dominica or grenada. I've yet to see a single post where a ross student says they prefer living in dominica to the US.

Actually, I'm curious now. This is the first time someone has made the argument that living in the caribbean would be better than living in the US. Can anyone on this forum who is a student at a caribbean school attest to this?

 

[mcataz]

I've talked to hundreds of people (and read their posts) who loved the island life... and I've seen thousands of photos from various islands and they look good to me. Sure there are dumpy areas just like in california and new york... but a nice sunny beach is a nice sunny beach.

Some people are *ussies and need air conditioning 24/7...or they think OMG OMG OMG I saw a bug!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!! Or needs their mom within a mile from them at all times.

And yes I've been out of Oklahoma...lived by south padre island and mexico for 4 years...in dallas for 1 year... vacationed 2 weeks in the bahamas...a month in Boston...and about 50 other cities in the USA. So spare me your closed-minded "anyone from the midwest must ride a horse to work" mindset.

Living on some of these islands would be a kicka** experience...but it's maybe not for momma's boys and daddy's girls?

And if you think mexico is a dump...then you haven't seen all of it.

J~

If you are one of those camping survival guys who embodies the spirit of Ted Nugent, then you might think it's a "kicka$$" time. For the rest of the normal people out there, a sunny beach is not just a sunny beach. Vietnam also have sunny beaches but I wouldn't want to go to school there. Grenada and Dominica are not anything close to looking Padre or the Bahamas. I love island life too but I think you are mistaken like many of the students who initially don't know what it's like going there.

My opinion is that the Carribean isn't a bad option if you want to finish without having to go through all the bs of reapplying. Everyone I know that graduated from Carribean schools are doing very well. One of those people is starting a GI fellowship at Henry Ford hospital. But even that person said he would have attended a DO school if he had gotten in knowing what he knew now. He said that he had to endure a lot more hardship to get where he is that he wouldn't have had to face being a student in the U.S. But whatever, if you are mentally tough, go the Carribean route, you will have the MD logo in the end.

 

[daelroy]

I've talked to hundreds of people (and read their posts) who loved the island life... and I've seen thousands of photos from various islands and they look good to me. Sure there are dumpy areas just like in california and new york... but a nice sunny beach is a nice sunny beach.

Some people are *ussies and need air conditioning 24/7...or they think OMG OMG OMG I saw a bug!!!!!!! Ahhhhhhhhhh!!!! Or needs their mom within a mile from them at all times.

And yes I've been out of Oklahoma...lived by south padre island and mexico for 4 years...in dallas for 1 year... vacationed 2 weeks in the bahamas...a month in Boston...and about 50 other cities in the USA. So spare me your closed-minded "anyone from the midwest must ride a horse to work" mindset.

Living on some of these islands would be a kicka** experience...but it's maybe not for momma's boys and daddy's girls?

And if you think mexico is a dump...then you haven't seen all of it.

J~

You have talked to hundreds of people that love island life? Okay

What island are you talking about because I know the islands you are referring to are not Dominica and Grenada. Hell, I think even your biggest SGU homer will admit that Grenada sux.

And I'm far from a mommas boy as my military experience can back that up. It's just that I base my opinions on facts and actual accounts and not what I perceive to be cool because it's "island life." No one willingly chooses to endure 3rd world conditions if they can help it. I think you have been watching a little too much Survivor. Just remember that on Survivor, they aren't there for 2 years and are not studying medicine. Studying medicine is hard enough but doing so in poor conditions makes it that much harder.

Fair enough, I may be a momma's boy but on the flipside I suppose I could call you a good ole boy meathead. It's all good

 

[JohnnyOU]

Fair enough, I may be a momma's boy but on the flipside I suppose I could call you a good ole boy meathead. It's all good

meathead?

You freakin Archie Bunker wannabe

J~

 

[stephew]

You have talked to hundreds of people that love island life? Okay

What island are you talking about because I know the islands you are referring to are not Dominica and Grenada. Hell, I think even your biggest SGU homer will admit that Grenada sux.

And I'm far from a mommas boy as my military experience can back that up. It's just that I base my opinions on facts and actual accounts and not what I perceive to be cool because it's "island life." No one willingly chooses to endure 3rd world conditions if they can help it. I think you have been watching a little too much Survivor. Just remember that on Survivor, they aren't there for 2 years and are not studying medicine. Studying medicine is hard enough but doing so in poor conditions makes it that much harder.

Fair enough, I may be a momma's boy but on the flipside I suppose I could call you a good ole boy meathead. It's all good

Studying in grenada can be a study in frustration at times but it doesnt suck. Some hate it, some love it, most of us need to get the heck off of the island from time to time. Id never say Id prefer it to living in the states and doubt most would. But then there are the few who do, and includes the faculty, many of whom are old timers.

 

[anntems]

I am not biased towards M.D., D.O., and FMG, either way I think we are all trying to achieve the same common goal, that is becoming a great compassionate physician. However, I noticed that a lot of concern has been placed on the initials behind the names. If that is a big concern, I just wanted to add another option (not that I support it) of becoming both an D.O. and M.D. Antigua University of Health Sciences offers a post graduate degree for D.O.'s to become M.D.'s if that is the main concern people have, have fun.

http://www.uhsa.ag/index2.htm

 

[HEME-ONC]

I went to a DO school for 2 years and then decided to go to St. Georges University. I am so happy that I made this decision. Most of the points you have made are false and suger coated.

I was also accepted to western and turned them down as well. The education that I recieved at Nova Southeastern Osteopathic does not compare to my education at St. Georges.

As far as residency goes. I have personal friends that have had no problem being accepted in great competitive programs. Some of the programs range from surgery, radiology, Internal medicine, Anesthesiology, and even Orthopedics.

I dont think that becoming a DO is a bad thing at all. If you want to practice medicine its a great way to do it. But you will never be an MD and that is a fact. I didnt enjoy my education at a DO school and that is why I left. I went to the carribean because I didnt get in when I applied when I got into DO school and I didnt want to go through all of the drama of reapplying and retaking the MCAT. I have friends that went to St.George and they were all happy. I also recieved an incredible scholarship there and have all the same financial aid opportunities that US medical schools offer.

I hope this email helps anyone that may disregard St. George because they think they will be missing out by not going DO.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Heme-onc didn't you have to get some letters of recommendation to transfer to SGU? I can't help but imagine how awkward that would be (asking osteopathic professors to write recommendations for you to go to an allopathic school).

What was so bad about Nova that you tried to transfer to Western Osteopathic and SGU? Also if it was the MD you wanted, why SGU? There are a good 20 US allopathic, LCME accredited schools that accept osteopathic transfers.

And lastly, did you have to do pre-clinicals (basic sciences) over or did you go straight into clinicals as a 3rd year? Just curious...no knock on SGU as my brother is a student there, but I'm a little confused...

 

[stephew]

Heme-onc didn't you have to get some letters of recommendation to transfer to SGU? I can't help but imagine how awkward that would be (asking osteopathic professors to write recommendations for you to go to an allopathic school).

What was so bad about Nova that you tried to transfer to Western Osteopathic and SGU? Also if it was the MD you wanted, why SGU? There are a good 20 US allopathic, LCME accredited schools that accept osteopathic transfers.

And lastly, did you have to do pre-clinicals (basic sciences) over or did you go straight into clinicals as a 3rd year? Just curious...no knock on SGU as my brother is a student there, but I'm a little confused...

sgu doesnt take people into their third year---if Hemeonc did i think he'd be the first.

 

[skypilot]

sgu doesnt take people into their third year---if Hemeonc did i think he'd be the first.

Hemeonc is a first year student according to this post so if he is a transfer student it was into the first year.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=1394521#post1394521

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Hemeonc is a first year student according to this post so if he is a transfer student it was into the first year.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=1394521#post1394521

Now I'm even more confused! Why would you start all over at SGU if you already finished two years in osteopathic school...just for the MD?! It's not worth the time or the money...unless of course he had to because he didn't pass or quit from the osteopathic school and wants to give medicine another try...

 

[daelroy]

Now I'm even more confused! Why would you start all over at SGU if you already finished two years in osteopathic school...just for the MD?! It's not worth the time or the money...unless of course he had to because he didn't pass or quit from the osteopathic school and wants to give medicine another try...

Phil

You hit the nail on the head. His story sounds a little "contrived" if you ask me. I do know two people who transferred from a DO school to the Carribean and these were students who were forced to leave due to weak academic standing. But I will be honest, these students didn't transfer to SGU; they transferred to Ross. I doubt SGU would have taken them. However, I do know many SGU, Ross and AUC students who transferred to DO schools.

I will admit this. SGU is probably the best foreign medical school you could attend. A lot of the shadiness that is associated with foreign medical schools including Ross and AUC don't seem to apply to SGU. For one thing, SGU has an admissions process that is similar to US standards. They don't just accept anyone and you do have to formally apply. Unlike Ross and AUC, the admissions process isn't a revolving door at SGU. They have always accepted the MCAT as opposed to just the last 2 years for Ross and AUC. They actualy do read your essays and evaluate based on the your EC's etc. You can't fairly include SGU when you are talking about all Carribean schools. That being said, SGU is still an IMG school. It's still below that of a U.S. osteopathic school. You still have to live in third world conditions and bear all the red tape of doing rotations in the U.S. And I will admit that an SGU student may be given more or equal consideration by PD's in the northeast but in regards to the rest of the United States: faggedaboutit. DO's have a major upperhand in Arizona, California, Colorado, Nevada, Texas, Utah and Washington. And the midwest is DO heaven.

Another interesting fact is that Ross not SGU has the best clinical rotation setup of all the Carribean schools because of their volume and past history with hospitals in New York and the East coast. That's the only reason why Ross still manages to attract candidates; their clinicals.

 

[jessica123]

Hard to believe anybody went to school in the "Carribean" and can't even spell the word correctly. "Caribbean" after the Carib Indians is the way to spell it. Jeezes!