The skyrocketing value of the HPSP scholarship

[NontradCA]

Then shut up. I know what it's like to serve in the military AND be an officer AND be a doctor.

How can you be HPSP and "never will be" and officer?

I'm legitimately concerned for 1) anybody that serves under your command 2) your future patients and 3) anybody who has ever met you on-line or otherwise.

I don't understand what you're hoping to achieve here other than insult a group of veterans who dedicated years of our lives to serving our country and are truly concerned about the problems with military medicine.

Hilarious.

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[notdeadyet]

Alright, alright…. Everyone knows where everybody stands, and everybody knows everyone's opinion of each other.

The folks have something new to say about the skyrocketing value of the HPSP scholarship, feel free to post.But the name calling and bickering has run its course.


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[NontradCA]

For the record, I stopped replying seriously when I was attacked. It was not my intention to try to embarrass anyone. I should have started off with a more professional tone, instead of being hostile. I'm not doing HPSP, I am an enlisted veteran. My point is that my brothers and I may get offended at the culture of physicians in the military. If you are truly dedicated to your service to members, then I apologize for putting you in the category that is customary to enlisted personnel.

 

[bricktamland]

Many thanks for the post! I appreciate the hindsight as it gives me better perspective and is a good dose towards curing my quixotic perceptions of the navy. It's a good reminder that ultimately working for the gov is like working for a large corporation that only has their agenda on the forefront (and maybe rightly so). Do what is best for your family. When you are laying on your death bed, I guarantee you will not be regretting your decision and thinking "If only I had served more years," no, you'll be thinking " I wish I had spent more time w the kids, my sweetheart, and friends."

I am happy to know that you are willing to be transparent about your experiences. It helps me prepare better mentally. Like you once were, I am single, and a woman at that. I just got done w my masters in may and about to launch into a PsyD with hopefully the HPSP. The idea of the unexpectant, not having roots, moving all seems exciting, but I know it will get old, especially if I Ggod forbid!) end up stayin single. It's hard enough finding a quality man in the civilian world while working crazy hours, I can't imagine how slim the pickings are in the force. Having w family seams like only a dream.
in many ways men have it easier, you just have to focus on building a career, but us women have to be mindful about childbirthing years.I hate to sound sexist and at the cost of sounding like a hypocrit, the truth is, women really should be at home raising families. I guess i want both. Not sure if at least a seasonal career of a few years in the navy is compatible with marriage and having children.

On a different note, can you tell me what makes navy medicine unique? I'm having a hard time decision which branch is best to apply to (navy, army, or AF).

Any experiences w psychologists in the Navy and their stories?

Koogy,
You’re right to a degree; “big Navy” often times feels just like any other large corporation with only the bottom line in mind. However, I wouldn’t totally abandon your “quixotic” views. Your individual unit, the Corpsmen and other officers you work with, can really become like a second family. The Corpsmen I’ve worked with have treated me amazingly and you can form a great bond with them in a way that I don’t think you can find outside of the military. That kind of stuff is definitely the best part of the Navy. The negative stuff has already been discussed in detail already, so I won’t rehash that.
To your other point: most of my experience with psychologists stems from my time as a GMO. I was constantly referring patients over to “Division Psych.” In an infantry unit, you get quite a mixed population, plenty of true-to-life bad-ass warriors, but also a seemingly endless stream of ****birds. In my aid station, there was a constant influx of malingerers, personality disorders, and adjustment disorders. It seemed like every week I was seeing yet another “cutter.” For better or worse, the military attracts a lot of kids with psychological problems who probably come from super dysfunctional families and these kids think (or hope) that joining the military is going to solve all their issues and transform them into elite warriors like the ones portrayed on the TV ads, where they all look like models riding around in awesome helicopters and tanks. Probably a decent portion are transformed in a positive way, but a disturbing amount somehow make it through the School of Infantry and end up in my BAS every morning. So, yes, there is PLENTY of need for good psychologists in the Navy from my experience.
As far as being a woman in the Navy, there’s clearly still too much sexism and harassment that goes on, but I have to say, I don’t know of an organization that is trying harder to eradicate it. Insofar as being single, perhaps one positive for you is that you’ll be surrounded by plenty of single men. . . . but how many of them are truly suitable bachelors is obviously a subject for debate. I guess my only advice is that if you’re single and hoping to keep your dating life active, obviously try to avoid being stationed somewhere super remote. Even if you don’t end up making the Navy a career, I still think a single stint can be a totally worthwhile time. Good luck.

 

[Homunculus]

whoah. i leave for 24 hrs and come back to a crime scene. that certainly escalated quickly. invigorating though, isn't it? haven't had a good knock down drag out in awhile.

For the record, I stopped replying seriously when I was attacked. It was not my intention to try to embarrass anyone. I should have started off with a more professional tone, instead of being hostile. I'm not doing HPSP, I am an enlisted veteran. My point is that my brothers and I may get offended at the culture of physicians in the military. If you are truly dedicated to your service to members, then I apologize for putting you in the category that is customary to enlisted personnel.

being a representative of SDN i will resist (as hard as it is) to jump in on your previous posts -- especially seeing as though things have died down. this is the equivalent of walking into a bar in boston with a yankees jersey on. not sure how he could have expected any other outcome from his initial post. pretty much fits "troll" to a "t".

on another thread we can compare the woefully awful "culture of physicians in the military" with the "culture of enlisted brothers in the military." i assume from the lack of pronoun "sister" he means combat arms. which, if i recall my mandatory training statistics correctly, is the group responsible for the implementation of the vast majority of mandatory safety, sexual harassment, sexual assault, drinking/driving, drug abuse and EO complaint training the *entire* army must endure. so thanks.

back to discussing the increasing value of the HPSP scholarship as it relates to medical schools turing into cash cows.

--your friendly neighborhood :troll: caveman

 

[j4pac]

whoah. i leave for 24 hrs and come back to a crime scene. that certainly escalated quickly. invigorating though, isn't it? haven't had a good knock down drag out in awhile.



being a representative of SDN i will resist (as hard as it is) to jump in on your previous posts -- especially seeing as though things have died down. this is the equivalent of walking into a bar in boston with a yankees jersey on. not sure how he could have expected any other outcome from his initial post. pretty much fits "troll" to a "t".

on another thread we can compare the woefully awful "culture of physicians in the military" with the "culture of enlisted brothers in the military." i assume from the lack of pronoun "sister" he means combat arms. which, if i recall my mandatory training statistics correctly, is the group responsible for the implementation of the vast majority of mandatory safety, sexual harassment, sexual assault, drinking/driving, drug abuse and EO complaint training the *entire* army must endure. so thanks.

back to discussing the increasing value of the HPSP scholarship as it relates to medical schools turing into cash cows.

--your friendly neighborhood :troll: caveman

Considering how hard it is to not want to go get tanked after having your fourth SAPR training session of the quarter...it promotes the central cause of sexual assault in the military...drunked, bad decision.

 

[Koogy]

So this is where a military needs to have some of their psychologists do a formally funded study to help "unearth" the obvious, so that a new policy can be enacted to shift the culture away from promoting drunkeness; what is axiomatic and self evident from any sexual misconduct is in over some 1000% of cases, alcohol was involved. Because clearly, from sexual assault stats, the number of incidents isn't changing by much with all that "helpful" mandate sexual assault training BS. That and also have congress take away authority for prosecution of sexual assaults away from command chain and directly authorize third party to investigate and issue articles/disciplinary for the criminal activity or harassing behaviors.... And now back to HPSP!

 

[backrow]

So this is where a military needs to have some of their psychologists do a formally funded study

That and also have congress take away authority for prosecution of sexual assaults away from command chain

So the military is okay to study itself, but not to prosecute it's own crimes? Hmm sounds a bit strange to me. Or is it because we are medical we feel we are immune to biases of military involvement in our studies....

So if the military can't be trusted to prosecute sexual assaults why should we trust them to do any judicial proceedings? Just a thought....

 

[244913]

So this is where a military needs to have some of their psychologists do a formally funded study to help "unearth" the obvious, so that a new policy can be enacted to shift the culture away from promoting drunkeness; what is axiomatic and self evident from any sexual misconduct is in over some 1000% of cases, alcohol was involved. Because clearly, from sexual assault stats, the number of incidents isn't changing by much with all that "helpful" mandate sexual assault training BS. That and also have congress take away authority for prosecution of sexual assaults away from command chain and directly authorize third party to investigate and issue articles/disciplinary for the criminal activity or harassing behaviors.... And now back to HPSP!

I've got an idea of how we can cut down on sexual assaults. Stop letting trailer park females with borderline personality disorder into the .Mil, stop putting them in units with horny 18 year old guys at a ratio of 1 female to 20 males and stop deploying them to cordoned-off boring hellholes for a year at a time.

- ex 61N

 

[a1qwerty55]

For the record, I stopped replying seriously when I was attacked. It was not my intention to try to embarrass anyone. I should have started off with a more professional tone, instead of being hostile. I'm not doing HPSP, I am an enlisted veteran. My point is that my brothers and I may get offended at the culture of physicians in the military. If you are truly dedicated to your service to members, then I apologize for putting you in the category that is customary to enlisted personnel.

Pure unadulterated poser above.

 

[notdeadyet]

I've got an idea of how we can cut down on sexual assaults. Stop letting trailer park females with borderline personality disorder into the .Mil, stop putting them in units with horny 18 year old guys at a ratio of 1 female to 20 males and stop deploying them to cordoned-off boring hellholes for a year at a time.

This would be an actual idea if this is where sexual assaults primarily happen, but it's not.

Incidentally, I have a hunch that for every sexual assault involving borderline females I can show at least four more involving men whose primary pathology is lack of integrity and loyalty and several other values that they somehow missed since day one of basic.

Equating sexual assault with borderline victims and "horny" assaulters is why a great case is made that the Army can't police it's own on this issue. The borderline stereotype of the victim comes from the fact that they are the loud minority while most victims lack axis II pathology and suffer in silence because they worry of the repercussions if they report the rape (such as being written off as a borderline by their command, as per above). And the viewing of rapists and sexual assault under the "boys will be boys" motif is exactly why the Army hasn't managed to train leaders right on this issue. Prepare for outside investigations coming soon. This is what happens when we can't handle our problems internally...

I agree the monthly online training about sexual assault and the like isn't working, but there's a certain grim irony in seeing these kinds of comments in the same breath as folks griping about said training. It's like the PFC at the range complaining about safety briefs while wearing a cast from his last accidental discharge.

 

[244913]

This would be an actual idea if this is where sexual assaults primarily happen, but it's not.

Incidentally, I have a hunch that for every sexual assault involving borderline females I can show at least four more involving men whose primary pathology is lack of integrity and loyalty and several other values that they somehow missed since day one of basic.

Equating sexual assault with borderline victims and "horny" assaulters is why a great case is made that the Army can't police it's own on this issue. The borderline stereotype of the victim comes from the fact that they are the loud minority while most victims lack axis II pathology and suffer in silence because they worry of the repercussions if they report the rape (such as being written off as a borderline by their command, as per above). And the viewing of rapists and sexual assault under the "boys will be boys" motif is exactly why the Army hasn't managed to train leaders right on this issue. Prepare for outside investigations coming soon. This is what happens when we can't handle our problems internally...

I agree the monthly online training about sexual assault and the like isn't working, but there's a certain grim irony in seeing these kinds of comments in the same breath as folks griping about said training. It's like the PFC at the range complaining about safety briefs while wearing a cast from his last accidental discharge.

Not my experience at all. 4 years in a line unit, almost two years deployed or away training. The very few females we had created a disproportionate amount of trouble.

I think we would do better to do away with some of the PC and feminist claptrap and acknowledge that boys will be boys but girls will also be girls. Both parties shoulder some of the blame.

The women who join the enlisted military by and very large are not chaste princesses. They bring a tremendous amount of psychosocial pathology to the table which is exacerbated by the military environment I suppose.

This blind adherence to the feminist victim narrative is what drives most of our useless online training but also leads to disgusting and corrosive hoaxes like the Duke lacrosse and UVA "rape" scandal.

- ex 61N

 

[notdeadyet]

boys will be boys but girls will also be girls. Both parties shoulder some of the blame.

Yeah, rape victims tend to hear this more in the military process than the civilian ones, but that's going to continue to change, glacially or otherwise.

But we come from very different backgrounds, training an expertise. I have a hunch the psychopathologies you're assuming generalized to most military rape victims is about as accurate as my stab at a flight physical form would be...

We'll have to just agree to disagree...

 

[Koogy]

Not my experience at all. 4 years in a line unit, almost two years deployed or away training. The very few females we had created a disproportionate amount of trouble.

I think we would do better to do away with some of the PC and feminist claptrap and acknowledge that boys will be boys but girls will also be girls. Both parties shoulder some of the blame.

The women who join the enlisted military by and very large are not chaste princesses. They bring a tremendous amount of psychosocial pathology to the table which is exacerbated by the military environment I suppose.

This blind adherence to the feminist victim narrative is what drives most of our useless online training but also leads to disgusting and corrosive hoaxes like the Duke lacrosse and UVA "rape" scandal.

- ex 61N

November, what planet are you on? Nobody, and i mean NOBODY said ANYTHING about chastity. We are not talking here about consensual sexual experiences, in case you were asleep. We are talking about sexual assault, unwanted sexual advances, sexual innuendos and harassment, and rape. Can you see the difference? If not, your kind of thinking is exactly why the military has a problem with the sexual assault issue in the severest levels of proportion that congress is getting involved.

"Boys will be boys and girls will be girls" What are you saying here exactly? That, "boys will rape girls," and "girls will be silenced?" or were you referring to "boys will be horny" and "girls will flirt" If the latter, then that IS the human experience. But rape is NOT the human experience. To be horny isnt justification for assaulting anyone, sexual or otherwise. if you meant the former, then you are one pathological sociopath and have no business working for the federal government.

When a senior officer makes sexual advances on a female subordinate, and then when she reports the rape, he strips her of her rank and demotes her to some unfitting position, then clearly "boys will be horny" and "girls will flirt" isnt applicable to this discussion. Or when a fresh female ROTC graduate /newly commissioned officer is cornered by her intoxicated officer peers at a party she was "mandated" to attend, and gang rape her and then she is punished and mocked for speaking out for her assault in an effort to obtain justice, then clearly the system is broken. So dont give me your BS. These are the stories of servicemember clients in my office, behind closed doors. It is YOUR kind of pathological thinking that actually re-traumatizes victims, and the very reason why command chain should not have authority over such crimes. God forbid you should have a female down your chain of command file a sexual assault case. Its bad enough to experience a sexual violation, but when you add egotistical attitudes such as yours with sprinklings of "boys will be boys" BS, clearly, a professional organization then becomes a machine of horny children who have no sense of self-control or justice, possessing no character, and need to be in a different organization wearing orange suits. Perhaps you need to watch a few of those mandated sexual assault trainings because you obviously have missed the lesson.

Here is a suggestion: watch the documentary: http://www.notinvisible.org/the_movie
and read the whitehouse' page https://www.notalone.gov/

And if new neurons don't start to fire as evidenced by a shift in your thinking, then dont bother responding to the post.

 

[Koogy]

This would be an actual idea if this is where sexual assaults primarily happen, but it's not.

Incidentally, I have a hunch that for every sexual assault involving borderline females I can show at least four more involving men whose primary pathology is lack of integrity and loyalty and several other values that they somehow missed since day one of basic.

Equating sexual assault with borderline victims and "horny" assaulters is why a great case is made that the Army can't police it's own on this issue. The borderline stereotype of the victim comes from the fact that they are the loud minority while most victims lack axis II pathology and suffer in silence because they worry of the repercussions if they report the rape (such as being written off as a borderline by their command, as per above). And the viewing of rapists and sexual assault under the "boys will be boys" motif is exactly why the Army hasn't managed to train leaders right on this issue. Prepare for outside investigations coming soon. This is what happens when we can't handle our problems internally...

I agree the monthly online training about sexual assault and the like isn't working, but there's a certain grim irony in seeing these kinds of comments in the same breath as folks griping about said training. It's like the PFC at the range complaining about safety briefs while wearing a cast from his last accidental discharge.

Well said. Couldnt agree more.

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

This thread has kind of gone all over the place...

 

[notdeadyet]

... And therefore the value of the HPSP scholarship has skyrocketed...


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[Mat the coolcat]

Meanwhile, back on the ranch...

I'm considering HPSP, and trying to talk myself out of it because of so many negative comments here.

Most of the negatives that I commonly see on here don't matter a ton to me (admin BS, moving around, lack of freedom, military nonsense), but the one that really is deterring me is the idea of marrying another doctor while HPSP. From what i've gathered this is the worst of all possible situations, but I would like to hear some personal opinions and experiences on why it is so bad.

If any HPSPers are married to doctors, and it worked out okay, I would love to hear their stories as well.

I did read this one a while back, and they have my utmost sympathy:

I think it's all dependent on one's specialty and situation. My wife and I are both 3 year HPSP recepient. We are in two different services. My medical school was fairly cheap. I came out with $45K in loans after medical school. I cut cost by living at my parent's house during medical school. She went to an expensive private school in DC. After graduating from medical school she had about $100K of loans. After 5 years of training she has $150K in loans.

Now the rub is that we are both in high paying specialty. The military screwed us in our first assignments. One there's the geographic separation. Two I am in an awful location in a MTF run by nurses. No one in my department is happy. There is skill atrophy. There is now the push from HRC for board certified physicians of all specialties to enter operational assignments (FST, Brigade or Flight surgeon). There's no funding for any CME activity. The expectation to do more with less. Milmed is not a good environment now especially outside of the big Medcen (Walter Reed, SAMMC, MAMC etc).

I would not recommend any prospective student to do the military primarily for financial reasons. There are just too many variables where one can end up really unhappy. Sure if one is married with kids and a spouse who is willing to stay at home and doesn't mind being sent to rural locations or doesn't mind the prospect of being tasked for a primarily administrative assignment then a military life is not a terrible option. One can skate by in the military, strolling into work around 8am and out by 4pm if they want to be lazy.

In the current climate of austerity, one shouldn't have any fantasy that they are entirely in control of their career if they stay in the military. There's a board certified doc who in my MTF who basically got voluntold that he'll be starting a flight surgery assignment. A buddy of mine who graduated was voluntold that he'd be starting a brigade surgery assignment for two years at a busy location. These guys will not have any time to keep their skills up. It's just a complete waste and travesty.

 

[Mat the coolcat]

Sidenote, most federal loans today are have a 4-7% interest,generally 6.8% is the norm. I've been doing a lot of research on the possible loan forgiveness programs, but it's hard to find solid information. I read earlier that after the 120 payments in a row (10 years) of on time payments , that the balance will be forgiven, but that the amount is capped at $57,000. That seems like a pretty rotten deal to me, does anyone have information that is different and newer? (Another way that I'm trying to convince myself away from HPSP)

 

[pgg]

Whether you're a military doctor, or an infantry company commander, or a fighter pilot, or anything else in the military ... having a professional spouse can be a real problem. Maintaining and advancing professional careers is tough when they have to move with you every few years.



I wouldn't take out a loan today for a sandwich, much less med school, assuming that some kind of government loan forgiveness will be available 15+ years from now.

 

[Red Lobster Actual]

120 payments in a row (10 years) of on time payments , that the balance will be forgiven, but that the amount is capped at $57,000.

Public Service Loan Forgiveness is not capped at $57,000, currently there is no cap. This was a budget proposal from the White House last year for the 2015 budget but this never made it through.

If you need up to date info on this, just type "Public Service Loan Forgiveness" into google and click the link that is run by the US Department of Education.

Additionally, if you need another reason to not join the military, you can qualify for PSLF starting in residency so long as you match into a non-profit hospital. Assuming the program exists in 4 years...

 

[deleted444089]

Wow, after serving out a little over my full commitment and starting my civilian residency next summer with no debt, I have to be honest in saying that I would be pretty bummed that you could get away with loan forgiveness just for having 10 years of on-time payments. The student loan situation in the US is pretty bad, but hoping that your loans will somehow be forgiven, or consider having $57,000 of debt erased a 'rotten deal,' represents less than a robust process of thinking about this. It doesn't sound like HPSP is a good fit for you, given that the money side of it is such a big concern.

Sidenote, most federal loans today are have a 4-7% interest,generally 6.8% is the norm. I've been doing a lot of research on the possible loan forgiveness programs, but it's hard to find solid information. I read earlier that after the 120 payments in a row (10 years) of on time payments , that the balance will be forgiven, but that the amount is capped at $57,000. That seems like a pretty rotten deal to me, does anyone have information that is different and newer? (Another way that I'm trying to convince myself away from HPSP)

 

[Mat the coolcat]

"I wouldn't take out a loan today for a sandwich, much less med school, assuming that some kind of government loan forgiveness will be available 15+ years from now.[/QUOTE]"

I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you mean to say that you wouldn't trust a loan forgiveness system with the government?

 

[Mat the coolcat]

Wow, after serving out a little over my full commitment and starting my civilian residency next summer with no debt, I have to be honest in saying that I would be pretty bummed that you could get away with loan forgiveness just for having 10 years of on-time payments. The student loan situation in the US is pretty bad, but hoping that your loans will somehow be forgiven, or consider having $57,000 of debt erased a 'rotten deal,' represents less than a robust process of thinking about this. It doesn't sound like HPSP is a good fit for you, given that the money side of it is such a big concern.

Easy now. I'm just trying to gather information. I'll make my own conclusions. Funaswc, are you married? If so, how has HPSP affected your marriage? Do you know any HPSPers who are married to doctors? What was their experience like?

 

[deuist]

Most of the negatives that I commonly see on here don't matter a ton to me (admin BS, moving around, lack of freedom, military nonsense)

Those things don't matter to you now because you've never had to experience them. The first time you have to go into work on your day off so that you can read this month's anti-rape training PowerPoint, you're going to change your attitude real quick. Some of the other military nonsense that people mentioned on the board have to do with annual performance reports that have nothing to do with your performance. You could be the world's first doctor to perform a brain transplant, yet that will only count for one bullet point on your performance report. You'll then likely be chastised for not taking up enough administrative tasks like ensuring that everyone in your office has passed the "wear your seat belts" training program.

but the one that really is deterring me is the idea of marrying another doctor while HPSP... but I would like to hear some personal opinions and experiences on why it is so bad.

Moving around every few years is bad for just about every profession – physician or not. I spent the first year of my marriage in a different state than my wife. At my current location, she has been unable to find a job in 15 months. We definitely feel the financial strain now that she's not working given that I make less as a military attending than we did combined when I was a resident.

 

[atum81]

I took the HPSP scholarship, and am married to a civilian physician. We've spent the last 4 years separated due to multiple factors but the take home is there is no guarantee the military will keep a family together. We thought we had it planned out post residency...needless to say I'm out this summer after my initial active duty obligation. Being dual military is probably slightly easier than the military-civilian combo

 

[colbgw02]

If any HPSPers are married to doctors, and it worked out okay, I would love to hear their stories as well

I'm married to a civilian physician. Things have worked out for us, but only because we've been incredibly fortunate.

We managed to match in the same city, which was very risky because there is only one civilian option for her specialty where I trained. If things hadn't worked out, we would have been thousands of miles apart. Also, her specialty permits her to be very flexible, which is a good thing because she will end up having to change jobs 3 times on my account. If she were in a field that required a partnership track or the building of a patient base, then her career would be completely stunted on account of my military obligation.

Like I've said, things worked out, but as the saying goes, "it's better to be lucky than good".

 

[pgg]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you mean to say that you wouldn't trust a loan forgiveness system with the government?

I'm saying I wouldn't make even a small decision, much less an enormous financial and life decision, based on the assumption that the government will have funds to continue any kind of loan forgiveness program, 15+ years from now.

 

[Mat the coolcat]

Thank you for your input, everyone. Any more stories/comments are appreciated.

 

[aklark]

I think it's a legitimate concern, even if a bit premature since it sounds like you're not even in a relationship at the moment. Maybe you'll be foreveralone and end up loving the military as a well-paid single resident and globe-trotting attending. Military is obviously worse than civilian side with respect to geographic limitations, but medicine in general is probably the most difficult profession one could choose with a working spouse.

There are many more articles like the one below in a variety of journals. I'd be very interested to see a study that compared separation rates for military and civilian residents.

"Unfortunately, many residents in traditional relationships are forced into a long-distance relationship with the transition from medical school to residency. Few couples have less control over their geographic destiny than medical students applying for residency through the National Residency Matching Program. Although couples matching has provided some hope for dual-physician couples, the majority of medical students’ partners have careers unrelated to medicine. Additionally, the competitiveness of emergency medicine residencies adds to the likelihood of a residency geographically distant from one’s partner.

It is likely that in any given residency, about a third of those in premarital relationships will be geographically separated at some point. Long-distance marriages are less common but not rare. National estimates suggest that approximately 1 million marriages4 and 1.5 million premarital relationships5 are considered by their participants to be long-distance relationships (excluding military couples and prisoners)."

http://www.annemergmed.com/article/S0196-0644(01)97304-4/fulltext

 

[WernickeDO]

Thank you for your input, everyone. Any more stories/comments are appreciated.

I met my wife (civilian doc) in medical school after I was locked in to HPSP. We have made it work through some good luck in getting assignments together, but she had to make sacrifices to her own career to make that happen. Your concern is a legit one. You are married/engaged to a fellow student/doc?

 

[IlDestriero]

I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you mean to say that you wouldn't trust a loan forgiveness system with the government?

I wouldn't trust the government to give loan forgiveness to anyone making 4+ times the average FAMILY income 10 or more years from now. That's a bad bet and the easiest of fat to cut. Limits are coming, if not soon, then when they have to be forgiven. Expect the big tax bill and a cap. And guess what, if you're making >200k as most physicians are, you CAN choose to pay off your loans. And you probably should.
Do you think the public will support a 6 figure loan forgiveness on the highest earners when the belt tightening gets real serious real fast? Your dreaming.

 

[pgg]

Amen to every single word IlDestriero just wrote. There is a recalibration coming to the western standard if living, I don't know when, but surely in our lifetimes. There's just too much debt that has to be repaid or devalued.

High earning professionals like us will be attractive targets for budget balancing efforts. Plan for it.

 

[Cooperd0g]

Especially when people knowingly took said debt to get a high paying job.

 

[BigNavyPedsGuy]

Thank you for your input, everyone. Any more stories/comments are appreciated.

Two of my residency classmates were across the country from their spouse. One had a civilian spouse MD they were across the coast from each other.

Another was dual military physician and she was stationed in WA while the Navy kept him in San Diego.

 

[Mat the coolcat]

Goverment sucks

 

[HighPriest]

Goverment sucks

Direct. To the point. Accurate, but with a hint of inexperience. I like this.

 

[j4pac]

Goverment sucks

Opposed to anarchy?

Too close to call I suppose.

 

[Mat the coolcat]

 

[Mat the coolcat]

Haha meanwhile back on the ranch...

Does anyone know any drawbacks to the national guard's reimbursement program? From what I have read so far it seems more my style than HPSP.

 

[notdeadyet]

Does anyone know any drawbacks to the national guard's reimbursement program? From what I have read so far it seems more my style than HPSP.

Mat- there are a couple of semi-active threads on the topic. Scan the threads that are talking about the Guard or search for HPLRP and you'll find them. I'm happy to answer any remaining questions they don't answer there.


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[Mat the coolcat]

Preciate it!

 

[packersfans]

McTouro.

as a side note, why are DOs so over-represented in milmed? 60% of my obc class was DO

Is this an accurate number for all branches? I was curious what the ratio of DO vs MD was in milmed.

 

[DeadCactus]

Haha meanwhile back on the ranch...

Does anyone know any drawbacks to the national guard's reimbursement program? From what I have read so far it seems more my style than HPSP.

While you review the old threads, I'll throw out what I think are the highlights:
1) Keep in mind that your experience will be much more variable based on state and unit than the experience of AD folks. The Guard is much more heterogenous so the experience of others will not necessarily reflect yours.

2) Think carefully about the time you're potentially incurring. The Guard makes it fairly easy to find yourself locked into almost a full career of service between 7 years of drilling in medical school and residency followed by 6 to 10 years of drilling after finishing. It's not as big of a gamble as USUHS, but think through it carefully.

3) Having control over where you live, train, and work is a huge plus for the Guard in comparison to AD. Because of this stability, I think it's a much better option for most physicians. The downside is that you have a civilian job that has to deal with your absence for military obligations which involves you finding a way to make up for the slack.

My personal opinion is that the best current option is to join as a medical student without accepting any stipends. This gives you 6 years to test it out, make a little money with drill pay or schools, and benefit from whatever educational perks your state offers. If you still like it, take STRAP and loan repayment either for all of residency or the last few years where you qualify for both...

 

[Mat the coolcat]

D

While you review the old threads, I'll throw out what I think are the highlights:
1) Keep in mind that your experience will be much more variable based on state and unit than the experience of AD folks. The Guard is much more heterogenous so the experience of others will not necessarily reflect yours.

2) Think carefully about the time you're potentially incurring. The Guard makes it fairly easy to find yourself locked into almost a full career of service between 7 years of drilling in medical school and residency followed by 6 to 10 years of drilling after finishing. It's not as big of a gamble as USUHS, but think through it carefully.

3) Having control over where you live, train, and work is a huge plus for the Guard in comparison to AD. Because of this stability, I think it's a much better option for most physicians. The downside is that you have a civilian job that has to deal with your absence for military obligations which involves you finding a way to make up for the slack.

My personal opinion is that the best current option is to join as a medical student without accepting any stipends. This gives you 6 years to test it out, make a little money with drill pay or schools, and benefit from whatever educational perks your state offers. If you still like it, take STRAP and loan repayment either for all of residency or the last few years where you qualify for both...

DeadCactus,

Thanks for your input, really appreaciate it.
I essentially ruled out HPSP a while back, so I agree. I am still considering the national guard as a good option, but I'm worried about keeping a job after residency. I honestly don't have a clue what specialty I want to go into, so it's hard to weigh that. Are there some specialties where it's harder to be in the guard?

Also, is there any flexibility on when they send you overseas? I assume there's not, that you just go when they tell you to every 2-3 years.

 

[DeadCactus]

Shift specialties and specialties that practice in large groups are easier. Specialties that have to build practices and often work in small groups or solo practices are the hardest. While specialty is a factor, where you take a job is probably just as big of an issue. An EM physician at a large group where they are one of dozens is going to have an easy time. A neurosurgeon who is the sole provider for a rural area is going to find it impossible. You can probably make it work with any specialty but it will affect the kind of practice environment you can work in.

There is some flexibility in the sense that you can try to volunteer to go somewhere before being told to go somewhere else...

 

[Re3iRtH]

I haven't posted on SDN since medical school.

I am now just over a year out of residency, military physician in a high paying specialty.

There are a lot of things I don't like about the military, but its been a great run so far:

- No debt
- $1M+ net worth 1 yr out of residency
- Living in Hawaii for 5 years was sweet
- Training in my specialty was fine
- Lots of adventures including international travel every year as a resident
- Meet truly great people
- Portfolio of rental properties

I am single and I don't need to make $500K a year. Why? #1 The more I read, study stocism, and travel, the less money I need to spend. My quality of life seems to go up when I spend less. #2 No debts of any kind except those paid by my tenants.

 

[deleted707454]

I haven't posted on SDN since medical school.

I am now just over a year out of residency, military physician in a high paying specialty.

There are a lot of things I don't like about the military, but its been a great run so far:

- No debt
- $1M+ net worth 1 yr out of residency
- Living in Hawaii for 5 years was sweet
- Training in my specialty was fine
- Lots of adventures including international travel every year as a resident
- Meet truly great people
- Portfolio of rental properties

I am single and I don't need to make $500K a year. Why? #1 The more I read, study stocism, and travel, the less money I need to spend. My quality of life seems to go up when I spend less. #2 No debts of any kind except those paid by my tenants.

What is your specialty?
Could you have moonlighted outside of mil hours and still taken decent $?

 

[Re3iRtH]

What is your specialty?
Could you have moonlighted outside of mil hours and still taken decent $?

I am one of the "ROAD" specialties. I have had plenty of time to moonlight at my first staff assignment, but haven't yet pulled the trigger. I don't need the extra $$ outside of my W-2 and R/E rental income. If I ever do moonlight, it will be because of boredom/desire higher complexity of cases.

 

[A7x1]

I haven't posted on SDN since medical school.

I am now just over a year out of residency, military physician in a high paying specialty.

There are a lot of things I don't like about the military, but its been a great run so far:

- No debt
- $1M+ net worth 1 yr out of residency
- Living in Hawaii for 5 years was sweet
- Training in my specialty was fine
- Lots of adventures including international travel every year as a resident
- Meet truly great people
- Portfolio of rental properties

I am single and I don't need to make $500K a year. Why? #1 The more I read, study stocism, and travel, the less money I need to spend. My quality of life seems to go up when I spend less. #2 No debts of any kind except those paid by my tenants.

I have to say that this story is the kind that motivates my desire to pursue HPSP and the military. Not necessarily the financial gain ($1m net worth, or portfolio of rental properties) but more so the travel, training, adventure, friendships, and other opportunities (no debt especially) that you mentioned. I am not sure whether or not the experiences you write about are indicative of a normal military experience, but I definitely would sign up if there was a good chance of experiencing them. Assuming that you are being completely honest with everything you wrote about (I am always a little skeptical), do you think that military (military med specifically) life offers any advantages over civilian life when trying to live a stoic lifestyle?