The Ultimate Paradox

[geno2568]

heres one thing that I completely don't understand when it comes to top tier schools.

It seems like schools love the helping-people-in-third-world-countries stories. Volunteering is almost a must as well, especially in the clinical setting. Our PS's are all about how some personal expereince changed our lives, and that we love to help people. Chicago even has an essay on helping people.

But the top tier schools arn't looking for primary care physicians. They want research, policy, etc. And these things have nothing to do with "helping people" in the "volunteering in a nursing home" sense of the word.

So what are they looking for? There are so many medical carreers that have little or no human interaction (pathology and radiology come to mind, along with the non-clinical stuff), especially for people out of the top tier schools. But how far are we really gonna get when we're being interviewed in Great School X, and we tell the interviewer that we have no desire to have human interaction?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Depakote]

heres one thing that I completely don't understand when it comes to top tier schools.

It seems like schools love the helping-people-in-third-world-countries stories. Volunteering is almost a must as well, especially in the clinical setting. Our PS's are all about how some personal expereince changed our lives, and that we love to help people. Chicago even has an essay on helping people.

But the top tier schools arn't looking for primary care physicians. They want research, policy, etc. And these things have nothing to do with "helping people" in the "volunteering in a nursing home" sense of the word.

So what are they looking for? There are so many medical carreers that have little or no human interaction (pathology and radiology come to mind, along with the non-clinical stuff), especially for people out of the top tier schools. But how far are we really gonna get when we're being interviewed in Great School X, and we tell the interviewer that we have no desire to have human interaction?

None of this **** really makes any sense if you think about it...

 

[mmmkay121]

who can afford these medical mission trips? Aren't they several grand?

 

[ChymeChancellor]

None of this **** really makes any sense if you think about it...

Just stop breathing and count to ten....

 

[notdeadyet]

It seems like schools love the helping-people-in-third-world-countries stories.

Premeds love the helping-people-in-third-world-countries stories. Helping people is enough for adcoms. Premeds like the third world shtick because international travel is fun (or Rewarding, or whatever you want to call it). Volunteering part-time for six months in a health clinic in underserved communities in the US looks better than one month on a medical safari in a developing nation. But premeds often prefer the latter.

Lets face it: living in challenging conditions in developing countries (for a very limited time of course) is a lot more appealing than volunteering in $hitty areas that we get to by taking buslines we don't like.

 

[notdeadyet]

So what are they looking for?

I agree with the problem for those who want to go into interaction-minimum specialties (though even specialties like radiology and pathology usually have a degree of patient interaction).

I think they're looking for altruistic volunteering because they're trying to weed out folks who are going in to medicine for money/prestige, etc. Many doctors will sell out later in life. If you're heading in with monetary gain on the brain, the odds of you acquiring a sense of helping your fellow man along the way are pretty minimal.

 

[Ari Gold]

this thread doesn't live up to the title. "ultimate" ? i thought it was going to blow my mind.

 

[Kikaku21]

I agree with the problem for those who want to go into interaction-minimum specialties (though even specialties like radiology and pathology usually have a degree of patient interaction).

I think they're looking for altruistic volunteering because they're trying to weed out folks who are going in to medicine for money/prestige, etc. Many doctors will sell out later in life. If you're heading in with monetary gain on the brain, the odds of you acquiring a sense of helping your fellow man along the way are pretty minimal.

Yeah... And even that doesn't work. Everyone knows you need volunteer experience, so they get it. They check the damn box, just like everything else in this insane process.

 

[gujuDoc]

None of this **** really makes any sense if you think about it...

Sooooooooooooooooooo true.

 

[spospo]

i volunteered abroad so i am going to throw in my 2 cents about it. i didn't go abroad because i thought it would look better, i did it because that is what fits into my schedule. also, i am very glad i went because i got about 10X as much hands on experience there than i would have in the states. they don't have all the laws that we have up here about privacy and stuff. i am unsure how much hands on there is in the rural clinics or free clinics, but i know you don't really get any in the hospitals. just thought i should add an opinion from the 'saving children in the third world' point of view.

 

[notdeadyet]

Don't get me wrong, Spospo. I'm sure lots of folks do it for the right reasons. I'm just suspect about folks who make the centerpeice of their personal statement (Why I Want to Be a Doctor) about something that lasted less than one month of their life.

I was in Mexico for a bit and, like all folks volunteering in developing nations, the lack of patient rights allowed me to do tasks that I was underqualified for (not that it's hard to give immunizations and whatnot). So I got "hands on" experience that I wouldn't have in the states. But I keep a reality check on it. It was one month of my life.

 

[geno2568]

to clarify a bit....

by third-world-country volunteering, i just meant a general example of human interaction-intensive volunteer work. I didn't mean to contrast it with ER volunteering at a local hospital. I'm just saying that this type of work in general is meaningless when considering the types of the doctors that the top schools sometimes pump out.

 

[notdeadyet]

i am unsure how much hands on there is in the rural clinics or free clinics, but i know you don't really get any in the hospitals.

You get much more in free clinics. Folks always get drawn to the ER, but you have much more clinical experience in free clinics. You can't do what you can do in developing nations (with very good reason: there's a reason phlebotomists have training) but you can take histories, take vitals, etc. A lot more patient contact in what most consider a more meaningful way.

 

[spospo]

Don't get me wrong, Spospo. I'm sure lots of folks do it for the right reasons. I'm just suspect about folks who make the centerpeice of their personal statement (Why I Want to Be a Doctor) about something that lasted less than one month of their life.

I was in Mexico for a bit and, like all folks volunteering in developing nations, the lack of patient rights allowed me to do tasks that I was underqualified for (not that it's hard to give immunizations and whatnot). So I got "hands on" experience that I wouldn't have in the states. But I keep a reality check on it. It was one month of my life.

you make a very good point. i did write about it in my PS, but i didn't write about it as "this is why i want to be a doc." i mean seriously, i did it after taking the mcat. you would be crazy to take that test if you didn't already know i wrote about what initially drove me to be a doc and then wrote about things i realized down there. i would find it a bit ridiculous if someone went to the third world for 14 days and then said that doing that was their sole basis for wanting to be a doc. best of luck to you

 

[njcaldwell]

That freaks me out then. I want to go to a top tier school, but I dont think Im that digging research, and additionaly I might want to do primary care. Crap hole.

 

[Kikaku21]

That freaks me out then. I want to go to a top tier school, but I dont think Im that digging research, and additionaly I might want to do primary care. Crap hole.

ITs hysterical really. At least 40% of the grads from any top tier school end up doing primary care.

 

[geno2568]

ITs hysterical really. At least 40% of the grads from any top tier school end up doing primary care.

from what i gather, that statistic is a bit misleading

a lot of people start in internal (which is primary care), but then do fellowships in stuff like cardiology, pulling them out of the primary care realm.

EDIT: But your point still stands though. They do produce way too many primary care docs when considering their stance during admission

 

[coralfangs]

no offense to those who have done short-term volunteering in developing countries
but i don't really see the point to it at this stage of our lives when we can't really contribute to those villagers
a lot of oversea volunteers i know saw it as a learning opportunity, true, u can
but is it a good-enough motive to justify spending thousands of dollars to get your arses across the ocean and have you volunteer there for merely a month or two? they also need to train you and get you well-acquinated to the locals. after a few weeks/months, you are gone. sure, you have learned quite a lot, but are the villages in better-shape with the short-term helps from volunteers with minimal medical knowledge? (wouldn't it be better to spend the resources to actually train the locals who would stay there for considerably longer periods? same kinda **** goes on in every field, even many professors would prefer to train PhD than MS... <-- according to my prof)

AND the money you spent on airfares alone can probably even feed hundreds of children for a month
besides, there are probably many people in your town/city who need help just as much, if you really want to help people, why not dig deep and find those needy ones and help them?

if you truly wanna help them, why not go and help them for a few years after you've become a doctor?

no offense, there are a lot of ****ing hypocrites in the medical field,
take this plastic surgeon in my town for example, he went to china once to help fix cleft lips for children living in underserved area
he made a big deal out of this and was featured in several local newspaper
afterwards, he talked about how much he wanna help those poor children
now he has become a hotshot surgeon in town (becuz everyone remembers him as the doctor with great virtue, blah blah), but all he does now is charging a ****load for a lip job or nose job and he drives a ****load of luxury/sport cars living the "chinese" dream of owning big bmw and mercedes

 

[BozoSparky]

heres one thing that I completely don't understand when it comes to top tier schools.

It seems like schools love the helping-people-in-third-world-countries stories. Volunteering is almost a must as well, especially in the clinical setting. Our PS's are all about how some personal expereince changed our lives, and that we love to help people. Chicago even has an essay on helping people.

But the top tier schools arn't looking for primary care physicians. They want research, policy, etc. And these things have nothing to do with "helping people" in the "volunteering in a nursing home" sense of the word.

So what are they looking for? There are so many medical carreers that have little or no human interaction (pathology and radiology come to mind, along with the non-clinical stuff), especially for people out of the top tier schools. But how far are we really gonna get when we're being interviewed in Great School X, and we tell the interviewer that we have no desire to have human interaction?

I think they want you to "get it" when it comes to wanting to help people...but they realize that you can't do it one at at time...so the high impact areas are research, policy, etc... change the world, you know, leave it better than when you started, don't just pick up a hammer and hit nails the rest of your life and collect your check (or do this, but be involved with the big picture). don't know if this is true, but i think adcoms seem to feel international experience makes you more likely to be a leader.

 

[notdeadyet]

I think they want you to "get it" when it comes to wanting to help people...but they realize that you can't do it one at at time...so the high impact areas are research, policy, etc...

Interesting thought. I'm hoping that they actually do realize that you can help people one patient at a time. I don't see spending the summer armed with a pipette or becoming a junior wonk all that much more significant in the big scheme of things.

don't know if this is true, but i think adcoms seem to feel international experience makes you more likely to be a leader.

Being a leader will make you more likely to be a leader. A month spent with an NGO in the developing world shows you have a good budget and a flair for adventure.

I loved working at the clinics down in Guadalajara, but I don't kid myself and hope others keep it in perspective too: could we have had a better impact by taking the flight/room/board money we spent and written out a check to organizations that actually have a sustainable impact, rather than revolving-door volunteers? Yes.

There's a reason the adcoms stress depth of experience rather than breadth.

 

[BozoSparky]

Interesting thought. I'm hoping that they actually do realize that you can help people one patient at a time. I don't see spending the summer armed with a pipette or becoming a junior wonk all that much more significant in the big scheme of things.

Thanks notdeadyet,

Yes, I reread my post. You are right, you can certainly help people one at a time...but I still feel one can dramatically save and improve more lives through research and policy. The top ten isn't betting you will pipette your summer away to a breakthrough, it's a lifelong committment they hope pays off.

I apologize if I sound dismissive toward the clinician's impact...I do not mean to be. I think the individual patient & physician - the frontlines in the clinic, are very important and very high impact...I know I will enjoy this role the most.

Sparky

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

ITs hysterical really. At least 40% of the grads from any top tier school end up doing primary care.

Yeah, but I bet more parents trust the judgments of pediatricians that are HMS grads than, say, pediatricians that went to SGU.

HMS Pediatrician: "Why is my baby all red and blotchy?"
Concerned Parent: "Ehh, that's nothing."
"Are you sure?"
"I'm sure. I'm very sure. I'm Harvard sure."
"Wow, really?"
"Yes. Really."
"Because I went to Stanford Med and-"

*doctor chair scrapes loudly*
*doctor pulls out a sword*

"STANNNNNNNNNFORD!!!!"

*parent pulls out a sword*

"That's right. STANFORD."
"Yuppie!"
"Dullard!"

*dramatic music*
*lava burst in the background*

and then, of course, the usual

"Join me!"
"Never!"

 

[R.P. McMurphy]

heres one thing that I completely don't understand when it comes to top tier schools.

It seems like schools love the helping-people-in-third-world-countries stories. Volunteering is almost a must as well, especially in the clinical setting. Our PS's are all about how some personal expereince changed our lives, and that we love to help people. Chicago even has an essay on helping people.

But the top tier schools arn't looking for primary care physicians. They want research, policy, etc. And these things have nothing to do with "helping people" in the "volunteering in a nursing home" sense of the word.

So what are they looking for? There are so many medical carreers that have little or no human interaction (pathology and radiology come to mind, along with the non-clinical stuff), especially for people out of the top tier schools. But how far are we really gonna get when we're being interviewed in Great School X, and we tell the interviewer that we have no desire to have human interaction?

Probably not too far. I guess I see what you are saying, but it's hard to tell exactly what you want to specialize in at this stage in the game, let alone know what you will actually be doing. No school wants to take a student who seems like he or she is not an altruist, but might make a good radiologist one day because there is not guarantee that he/she will in fact end up a radiologist.

To make a long story short, the more well-rounded you are, the better.

 

[geno2568]

Probably not too far. I guess I see what you are saying, but it's hard to tell exactly what you want to specialize in at this stage in the game, let alone know what you will actually be doing. No school wants to take a student who seems like he or she is not an altruist, but might make a good radiologist one day because there is not guarantee that he/she will in fact end up a radiologist.

To make a long story short, the more well-rounded you are, the better.

You make a good point. I'm just saying that schools place such an emphasis on alruism in the app process, when what they really want is research.

(yes, i know i'm making a very blunt generalization here..but the point stands)

 

[jackieMD2007]

Premeds love the helping-people-in-third-world-countries stories. Helping people is enough for adcoms. Premeds like the third world shtick because international travel is fun (or Rewarding, or whatever you want to call it). Volunteering part-time for six months in a health clinic in underserved communities in the US looks better than one month on a medical safari in a developing nation. But premeds often prefer the latter.

Lets face it: living in challenging conditions in developing countries (for a very limited time of course) is a lot more appealing than volunteering in $hitty areas that we get to by taking buslines we don't like.

Well put. Very well done.

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

You make a good point. I'm just saying that schools place such an emphasis on alruism in the app process, when what they really want is research.

(yes, i know i'm making a very blunt generalization here..but the point stands)

I think it's more about perspective than altruism.

 

[Erina]

Yeah, but I bet more parents trust the judgments of pediatricians that are HMS grads than, say, pediatricians that went to SGU.

HMS Pediatrician: "Why is my baby all red and blotchy?"
Concerned Parent: "Ehh, that's nothing."
"Are you sure?"
"I'm sure. I'm very sure. I'm Harvard sure."
"Wow, really?"
"Yes. Really."
"Because I went to Stanford Med and-"

*doctor chair scrapes loudly*
*doctor pulls out a sword*

"STANNNNNNNNNFORD!!!!"

*parent pulls out a sword*

"That's right. STANFORD."
"Yuppie!"
"Dullard!"

*dramatic music*
*lava burst in the background*

and then, of course, the usual

"Join me!"
"Never!"

how do you come up with this stuff?!

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

how do you come up with this stuff?!

a little bit of white matter, a little bit of gray matter

*taps side of his skull*

wait, wait, it's over here

*taps other side*

yeah they're over here.

 

[Erina]

a little bit of white matter, a little bit of gray matter

*taps side of his skull*

wait, wait, it's over here

*taps other side*

yeah they're over here.

i dont even know what to think about you.

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

i dont even know what to think about you.

Good things.

You know: first dew of spring, love letter from a secret admirer, rabbits in a field discussing the pros and cons of cud

your basic Peter Pan flight-type stuff.

 

[Erina]

Good things.

You know: first dew of spring, love letter from a secret admirer, rabbits in a field discussing the pros and cons of cud

your basic Peter Pan flight-type stuff.

the images you create are priceless.

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

the images you create are priceless.

well, in my defense, I've been several different kinds of artist, with the notable exception of

sandwich artist

which is fine because my art history professor said sandwiches aren't high art... although "Turkey Sub in Retrospect", oil on cavas, went over moderately well in some NY art circles.

 

[jackieMD2007]

I just kind of feel like pointing out that Paradox is a really old, really lame programming language. And I hate it. And that will be all.

 

[Erina]

well, in my defense, I've been several different kinds of artist, with the notable exception of

sandwich artist

which is fine because my art history professor said sandwiches aren't high art... although "Turkey Sub in Retrospect", oil on cavas, went over moderately well in some NY art circles.

i once painted an oil painting...but it was a landscape. you must be more talented than me.

 

[jackieMD2007]

well, in my defense, I've been several different kinds of artist, with the notable exception of

sandwich artist

which is fine because my art history professor said sandwiches aren't high art... although "Turkey Sub in Retrospect", oil on cavas, went over moderately well in some NY art circles.

Hells yes. I like the veggie delight, on wheat. I don't get it anymore 'cause I'm allergic to gluten but the veggie delight is definitely a work of art.

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

i once painted an oil painting...but it was a landscape. you must be more talented than me.

I'm sure your landscape was great. And I'm sure no one is going to complain about the one tree you put in there that wasn't really in the landscape.

Secret, secret tree.

It's like that story where the tree gave the child every piece of it as he grew up and then when he got older he ate the stump.

Actually, I don't remember how the end went.

 

[Erina]

I'm sure your landscape was great. And I'm sure no one is going to complain about the one tree you put in there that wasn't really in the landscape.

Secret, secret tree.

It's like that story where the tree gave the child every piece of it as he grew up and then when he got older he ate the stump.

Actually, I don't remember how the end went.

*sigh* but it wasn't even a landscape that i saw. i stole it from Bob Ross. i was young.

now i have a toolbox full of tons of unopened oil paints and unused brushes.

 

[Oculus Sinistra]

*sigh* but it wasn't even a landscape that i saw. i stole it from Bob Ross. i was young.

now i have a toolbox full of tons of unopened oil paints and unused brushes.

It's okay.

Thou Shalt Not Steal From Bob Ross

is not in the Bible. Or any other sacred text.

Well, it might be in

"Seriously, Stop Stealing My Ideas"
by Bob Ross

you can get that on Amazon.com

see if it's in there.

 

[DoctorPardi]

A lot of the top schools produce doctors that are not directly involved in patient care. They really just want the most dedicated, intelligent, consistent, and hard working individuals. They want you to have an idea of what a "regular" doctor's life is like, so that is why you get clinical experience. Also most of the top schools want you to do research, because many of their graduates are researchers.

It is about jumping through hoops to a point, but also you need to get an idea for what your life will be like after medical school/residency.

 

[Dr.Acula]

no offense to those who have done short-term volunteering in developing countries
but i don't really see the point to it at this stage of our lives when we can't really contribute to those villagers
a lot of oversea volunteers i know saw it as a learning opportunity, true, u can
but is it a good-enough motive to justify spending thousands of dollars to get your arses across the ocean and have you volunteer there for merely a month or two? they also need to train you and get you well-acquinated to the locals. after a few weeks/months, you are gone. sure, you have learned quite a lot, but are the villages in better-shape with the short-term helps from volunteers with minimal medical knowledge? (wouldn't it be better to spend the resources to actually train the locals who would stay there for considerably longer periods? same kinda **** goes on in every field, even many professors would prefer to train PhD than MS... <-- according to my prof)

AND the money you spent on airfares alone can probably even feed hundreds of children for a month
besides, there are probably many people in your town/city who need help just as much, if you really want to help people, why not dig deep and find those needy ones and help them?

if you truly wanna help them, why not go and help them for a few years after you've become a doctor?

no offense, there are a lot of ****ing hypocrites in the medical field,
take this plastic surgeon in my town for example, he went to china once to help fix cleft lips for children living in underserved area
he made a big deal out of this and was featured in several local newspaper
afterwards, he talked about how much he wanna help those poor children
now he has become a hotshot surgeon in town (becuz everyone remembers him as the doctor with great virtue, blah blah), but all he does now is charging a ****load for a lip job or nose job and he drives a ****load of luxury/sport cars living the "chinese" dream of owning big bmw and mercedes

So sad and so true.

 

[kazbegi]

Do you really that is so? That top schools would reject applicants that state their interests in primary care/practice, even if they have all the right scores and experience? I see the argument - those going into 'regular practice' aren't going to do much for the school (its reputation, etc). But if an adcom gets a 4.0, 40MCAT applicant who wants to do primary care, will they just discount him/her?

 

[geno2568]

Do you really that is so? That top schools would reject applicants that state their interests in primary care/practice, even if they have all the right scores and experience? I see the argument - those going into 'regular practice' aren't going to do much for the school (its reputation, etc). But if an adcom gets a 4.0, 40MCAT applicant who wants to do primary care, will they just discount him/her?

actually..... yes
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3993745&postcount=5

 

[Looque]

It seems as if I remember someone stating that top tier schools look for three types of students (in what ratio, I could not say): talented research-oriented individuals, the very idealistic that may change the world with their Mother Teresa-esque mentality, and URMs with good numbers. If you can effectively sell yourself as one of the three, you should be considered.

 

[geno2568]

It seems as if I remember someone stating that top tier schools look for three types of students (in what ratio, I could not say): talented research-oriented individuals, the very idealistic that may change the world with their Mother Theresa-esque mentality, and URMs with good numbers. If you can effectively sell yourself as one of the three, you should be considered.

what about hard-working, well rounded non-urm kids that want to be great fvcking doctors? People that are generally interested in the art of medicine, not in research, or "helping people"?

 

[CptCrunch]

actually..... yes
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=3993745&postcount=5

That was for MD/PhD, though.

 

[Looque]

what about hard-working, well rounded non-urm kids that want to be great fvcking doctors? People that are generally interested in the art of medicine, not in research, or "helping people"?

Not worthy.

Really, though, if that would be the best description of you, why would you even be concerned about getting into the Harvards or UCSFs of the world, other than for reasons of ego? There wouldn't be any particular benefit to it.

 

[Ari Gold]

Not worthy.

Really, though, if that would be the best description of you, why would you even be concerned about getting into the Harvards or UCSFs of the world, other than for reasons of ego? There wouldn't be any particular benefit to it.

 

[geno2568]

there would be lots of benefits
1)I will be amongts the best/brightest classmates
2)I will be taught by the best faculty
3)residency directors would be more likely to take me
4)Rotations will be in world hospitals (mayo clinic, hopkins medical center, ny-presbytarian, cleveland clinic, ucla medical center...u get the picture)
5)no matter what you do later in life, having the word "HMS" (or the like) on your resume opens doors

besides, what we want to do no will most likely not mirror what we want to do four years from now. And with the good school, I will likely have more options presented to me (such as dual degrees, etc).

 

[BozoSparky]

i had an interesting experience at columbia when i interviewed last year.

my interviewer said, "This isn't the place to come if you want to treat ear aches. We don't even know what to do with them! (he laughs). You can hit the clinic thursday afternoons to get your kicks, but your contribution to medicine will be in the lab."

now, was this blunt or what? i found his comments depressing (i will help people directly more than one afternoon a week), even though i do love the laboratory.

i don't think every top 20 school (or interviewer) is this way...but watch out, it's definitely there. fyi, i was waitlisted...and left wondering if i didn't sell myself right (i put my foot down, said i defintely want to practice at least half time, if not more).

 

[Ari Gold]

i had an interesting experience at columbia when i interviewed last year.

my interviewer said, "This isn't the place to come if you want to treat ear aches. We don't even know what to do with them! (he laughs). You can hit the clinic thursday afternoons to get your kicks, but your contribution to medicine will be in the lab."

now, was this blunt or what? i found his comments depressing (i will help people directly more than one afternoon a week), even though i do love the laboratory.

i don't think every top 20 school (or interviewer) is this way...but watch out, it's definitely there. fyi, i was waitlisted...and left wondering if i didn't sell myself right (i put my foot down, said i defintely want to practice at least half time, if not more).

Damn.
Michigan says we realize you can make contributions to medicine in many different ways research, academics, primary care, etc. They just want excellence in whatever you do.