Think medical school is for you? You’re probably wrong

[Mad Jack]

The thing about being a non trad is you realize how sweet a gig medicine really is. Nowadays everybody works 60-70 hr weeks, has a ton of paperwork to do, and has to put up with hostile ungrateful clients ( I use to be a teacher ). I was putting up with all this bullcrap as a teacher and getting paid 30k a year. I would be at the school from 7-4, grade papers from 4-6, do lesson plans from 6-8, that's a 13 hr work day, not to mention you have to deal with discipline problems in children, classroom management, crazy parents, being on your feet lecturing all day, administrative bullcrap, and the list goes on. Everybody gets kicked and spat on, but at least in medicine they pay you 200k+ to deal with it.


And what the hell does a history grad student know about med school admissions. Most likely she is "jelly."

I don't know many people outside of medicine that regularly break 40 hours a week unless they are opting for overtime by choice. I can literally count them on one hand.

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[DermViser]

I agree that the author goes a bit overboard, but I think some aspects of the gestalt of her post are right on.

That's what I'm getting at. Does she go slightly overboard? Yes. But I think what rankles people here is that there is a grain of truth that just can't be wiped away.
If she's wrong then we have a lot of humanistic, altruistic people fighting for medical school spots.

 

[DermViser]

I don't know many people outside of medicine that regularly break 40 hours a week unless they are opting for overtime by choice. I can literally count them on one hand.

And you can bet if they do, they're clocking in those hours for overtime pay.

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

A lot more people work long hours than you think, many of them unpaid. Most of my friends have second jobs or side businesses to make their budgets work. Of course, that is because most of my friends are supporting unemployed spouses/family members.

I'd say the amount of people outside of medicine that work long hours is pretty overstated on SDN.

 

[deleted407021]

I don't know many people outside of medicine that regularly break 40 hours a week unless they are opting for overtime by choice. I can literally count them on one hand.

The people you know may not be a representative sample.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'd say the amount of people outside of medicine that work long hours is pretty overstated on SDN.

It's because SDNers think the only four careers in the world are physician, engineer, high ranking executive, and ibanker.

 

[Mad Jack]

The people you know may not be a representative sample.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics begs to differ.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t18.htm

http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet?request_action=wh&graph_name=CE_cesbref2

 

[TheWeeIceMan]

It's because SDNers think the only four careers in the world are physician, engineer, high ranking executive, and ibanker.

Exactly. I was almost going to put a qualifier on my post to exclude ibankers, which seems to be the "go to" profession to compare medicine to.

All we can really do is throw out anectodal evidence here, but I was an engineer for a bit after college and I never worked more than 40 hours a week, and neither did my co-workers.

 

[deleted407021]

The Bureau of Labor Statistics begs to differ.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t18.htm

http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet?request_action=wh&graph_name=CE_cesbref2

Wow. You know a lot of people. Thanks for the stats.

 

[Mad Jack]

Wow. You know a lot of people. Thanks for the stats.

I don't know any miners, so my estimates are likely underinflated

 

[deleted407021]

It's because SDNers think the only four careers in the world are physician, engineer, high ranking executive, and ibanker.

That does seem to be the popular sentiment. I'm not certain if it is a lack of awareness or a concept of superiority that drives the notion of doctor, engineer, wolf of Wall Street or bust, but the real opportunities available for educated people are largely lost on many posters here.

IT, education, the sciences, management, other healthcare fields, and, god forbid, vocational jobs, all seem to be out of the question for many of the residents of sdn.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

You know I'm kidding man. You went through MS3, MS4, and intern year. You're a dermatologist in training precisely because you do know what call is like.

Lol, you got the menacing finger wave for that one.

 

[Mad Jack]

Lol, you got the menacing finger wave for that one.
View attachment 183776

The greatest sacrifice a dermatologist makes is the jokes they must endure for being a dermatologist for the rest of their life. That and everyone they know asking if they can take a look at this weird spot/rash/mole all the time. Ortho gets the same treatment in regard to being the cavemen of medicine, radiologists in relation to their patient aversion, etc. He should know I'm kidding and that derm is awesome and a very important specialty.

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

The greatest sacrifice a dermatologist makes is the jokes they must endure for being a dermatologist for the rest of their life. That and everyone they know asking if they can take a look at this weird spot/rash/mole all the time. Ortho gets the same treatment in regard to being the cavemen of medicine, radiologists in relation to their patient aversion, etc. He should know I'm kidding and that derm is awesome and a very important specialty.

And exceptionally hard to match into it.

 

[el_duderino]

That's what I'm getting at. Does she go slightly overboard? Yes. But I think what rankles people here is that there is a grain of truth that just can't be wiped away.
If she's wrong then we have a lot of humanistic, altruistic people fighting for medical school spots.

That's not what rankles people here. You can't just wave your hand in the air and divine from on high what is rankling people.

 

[Lamel]

Thank you. The ridiculousness of premeds saying they'd do all of what the work entails WITHOUT any of the rest: security, money, prestige or a combo of all of them, is absolutely hilarious which shows they're either delusional or absolutely lying.

We can't actually say that during interviews though, even as secondary goals, otherwise we will be judged for it. So the problem isn't exactly with pre-meds,.

 

[DermViser]

We can't actually say that during interviews though, even as secondary goals, otherwise we will be judged for it. So the problem isn't exactly with pre-meds,.

You're missing the author's point. Her point is that the security, money, prestige play a huge role if not the reason for pursuing medicine and they don't figure out how foolish this is until they enter residency, the first time they've had a REAL job in their lives.

 

[DermViser]

The greatest sacrifice a dermatologist makes is the jokes they must endure for being a dermatologist for the rest of their life. That and everyone they know asking if they can take a look at this weird spot/rash/mole all the time. Ortho gets the same treatment in regard to being the cavemen of medicine, radiologists in relation to their patient aversion, etc. He should know I'm kidding and that derm is awesome and a very important specialty.

LOL. True. It's expected at this point. But honestly, the reason why it is satisfying is bc it allows me to actually help people, it's action oriented, you have the ability to actually solve the problem, with the ability to focus on one organ system in which you are the expert, and keep your humanity and bedside manner in the process. Patients, in general, are quite happy and are appreciative of the things you do for them.

 

[blackkrim]

Interesting article, but her point about the leading cause of death for physicians under 35 doesn't really seem to apply. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death for ALL people under 35, physician or not.

There are genuine concerns about happiness among physicians--young or old--but there are similar concerns for any group of professionals. The fact is that if you enter a high stress, high workload profession (medicine, law, education, engineering, etc.), there is a decent likelihood that you will be unhappy with your choice (at least for periods of time). It just comes with the territory.

 

[Lamel]

You're missing the author's point. Her point is that the security, money, prestige play a huge role if not the reason for pursuing medicine and they don't figure out how foolish this is until they enter residency, the first time they've had a REAL job in their lives.

I am responding more to your post than the article. You're saying that it is ridiculous for pre-meds to not consider the money/power/security, but I am saying that most pre-meds do consider these aspects, but are heavily judged for it in the admissions process. I don't know one person who hasn't considered the job security and money in medicine a big plus, but I have not met any people who are doing it solely for those reasons. I knew a couple of ex-premeds who were in it for the money, but both of them have switched to finance/consulting.

Are there pre-meds out there only gunning for money? Yes.
Are most pre-meds only in it for the money? Unlikely.
Is money still a major consideration? Of course.

LOL. True. It's expected at this point. But honestly, the reason why it is satisfying is bc it allows me to actually help people, it's action oriented, you have the ability to actually solve the problem, with the ability to focus on one organ system in which you are the expert, and keep your humanity and bedside manner in the process. Patients, in general, are quite happy and are appreciative of the things you do for them.

I'm surprised you didn't mention the good money and lifestyle.

 

[DermViser]

I'm surprised you didn't mention the good money and lifestyle.

That should tell you something, when someone actually enjoys the specialty for the characteristics of that specialty.

 

[Lamel]

That should tell you something, when someone actually enjoys the specialty for the characteristics of that specialty.

So are you delusional or absolutely lying?

The ridiculousness of premeds saying they'd do all of what the work entails WITHOUT any of the rest: security, money, prestige or a combo of all of them, is absolutely hilarious which shows they're either delusional or absolutely lying.

 

[Mad Jack]

Interesting article, but her point about the leading cause of death for physicians under 35 doesn't really seem to apply. Suicide is one of the leading causes of death for ALL people under 35, physician or not.

There are genuine concerns about happiness among physicians--young or old--but there are similar concerns for any group of professionals. The fact is that if you enter a high stress, high workload profession (medicine, law, education, engineering, etc.), there is a decent likelihood that you will be unhappy with your choice (at least for periods of time). It just comes with the territory.

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10lcid_all_deaths_by_age_group_2010-a.Pdf

Not true. Unintentional injuries are the leading cause of death for people under the age of 35.

 

[el_duderino]

ITT: people who are in it for the money and prestige project their desires onto everyone else.

 

[type12]

I think it's funny that the author is so insecure that she has to claim she was accepted to med school (not saying she wasn't, but can't prove/disprove it).

This reads like a self-justification rather than any meaningful insight. And again, from the ignorant perspective of how other fields and living without the comforts of a physician are.

 

[DermViser]

So are you delusional or absolutely lying?

Are you serious? Do you actually think someone can last by choosing a specialty just based on reimbursement - something that changes at the stroke of a pen?

 

[Mad Jack]

ITT: people who are in it for the money and prestige project their desires onto everyone else.

You forgot the bishes.

 

[Ace-Co-A]

I don't know many people outside of medicine that regularly break 40 hours a week unless they are opting for overtime by choice. I can literally count them on one hand.

Farmers. I am working on a farm this summer - for the most part, we work ~ 50 hours per week.

Scientists also work a lot, no?

 

[DermViser]

I think it's funny that the author is so insecure that she has to claim she was accepted to med school (not saying she wasn't, but can't prove/disprove it).

Probably so people like you can't say it's bc she's jealous.

 

[type12]

Probably so people like you can't say it's bc she's jealous.

Touché... I probably would have lol

 

[Lamel]

Are you serious? Do you actually think someone can last by choosing a specialty just based on reimbursement - something that changes at the stroke of a pen?

I am simply asking you based on what you said. You didn't mention the money/prestige/security in your reasons for liking derm at all.

When did you find out that you'd specialize in derm without those aspects being a major consideration?

 

[DermViser]

You forgot the bishes.

That's why Ortho exists.

 

[DermViser]

I am simply asking you based on what you said. You didn't mention the money/prestige/security in your reasons for liking derm at all.

When did you find out that you'd specialize in derm without those aspects being a major consideration?

Derm doesn't make close to as much as other fields: Rads, Rad Onc, Ortho, Neurosurg, etc.
It definitely doesn't have as much prestige with the public.

I guess it has security, with respect to being a physician.

 

[blackkrim]

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/pdf/10lcid_all_deaths_by_age_group_2010-a.Pdf

Not true. Unintentional injuries are the leading cause of death for people under the age of 35.

Suicide is right behind that, though, and "Unintentional Injuries" seems like a sweeping category that probably includes everything from car accidents to workplace injuries.

Physicians do have higher rates of suicide, but I can't find an age cohort breakdown on that. The other high suicide groups are mostly other professions, which leads back to my original point: most jobs outside of medicine that people of similar ambition/education would choose suffer similar rates of suicide, depression, etc.

So while there may be very valid reasons for choosing a different field, I'm not sure that this is necessarily one of them.

 

[Lamel]

Derm doesn't make close to as much as other fields: Rads, Rad Onc, Ortho, Neurosurg, etc.
It definitely doesn't have as much prestige with the public.

I guess it has security, with respect to being a physician.

So you're basically doing it for reasons other than money/prestige; but you're calling pre-meds ridiculous for doing so, with the assumption that pre-meds are too dumb to consider those aspects of the medical field.

It is true that I would never flat-out say that I appreciate the money/security in an interview, but that doesn't mean I am oblivious to it.

 

[Mad Jack]

Farmers. I am working on a farm this summer - for the most part, we work ~ 50 hours per week.

Scientists also work a lot, no?

Farming is usually seasonal work- over the course of a year I would doubt most farmers average 40 hours/week. They also make up a fraction of the workforce- less than 2%. The same goes for scientists and engineers, who also make up less than 1.5% of the workforce. And there's only 4,663 actual research scientists per million citizens in the united states, so they are more outliers than the norm. The vast majority of people work less than 40 hours a week, or we wouldn't have an average work week of 34.5 hours across the board.

 

[DermViser]

So you're basically doing it for reasons other than money/prestige; but you're calling pre-meds ridiculous for doing so, with the assumption that pre-meds are too dumb to consider those aspects of the medical field.

It is true that I would never flat-out say that I appreciate the money/security in an interview, but that doesn't mean I am oblivious to it.

If you can't differentiate the nuance between 1) choosing to enter medicine in the first place to 2) choosing a medical specialty, then I can't help you.

 

[Mad Jack]

Suicide is right behind that, though, and "Unintentional Injuries" seems like a sweeping category that probably includes everything from car accidents to workplace injuries.

Physicians do have higher rates of suicide, but I can't find an age cohort breakdown on that. The other high suicide groups are mostly other professions, which leads back to my original point: most jobs outside of medicine that people of similar ambition/education would choose suffer similar rates of suicide, depression, etc.

So while there may be very valid reasons for choosing a different field, I'm not sure that this is necessarily one of them.

Oh I agree. If you look at the data, physicians don't attempt suicide more often, they're just successful a higher percentage of the time because they actually know what they're doing.

 

[el_duderino]

So you're basically doing it for reasons other than money/prestige; but you're calling pre-meds ridiculous for doing so, with the assumption that pre-meds are too dumb to consider those aspects of the medical field.

It is true that I would never flat-out say that I appreciate the money/security in an interview, but that doesn't mean I am oblivious to it.

Only DV has the self-awareness and foresight to choose to enter medicine for the right reasons.

 

[Ace-Co-A]

Farming is usually seasonal work- over the course of a year I would doubt most farmers average 40 hours/week. They also make up a fraction of the workforce- less than 2%. The same goes for scientists and engineers, who also make up less than 1.5% of the workforce. And there's only 4,663 actual research scientists per million citizens in the united states, so they are more outliers than the norm. The vast majority of people work less than 40 hours a week, or we wouldn't have an average work week of 34.5 hours across the board.

I agree with you that it is a minority of the workforce -- I was just giving counterexamples.

Farmers do work in the winter (at my farm, for example, they prune the fruit trees - which is quite time-consuming). They have told me that winters are less busy.

 

[Lamel]

If you can't differentiate the nuance between 1) choosing to enter medicine in the first place to 2) choosing a medical specialty, then I can't help you.

But you can't understand that if your reasons for entering derm aren't because of the money/prestige, then by extension your reasons for a being a physician are not either. And if so, then you are hypocritically criticizing pre-meds for having the same altruistic motivations that you seem to have. You also don't seem to get the point that pre-meds are aware of those aspects, but it is simply too taboo to say them in the admissions game, and you can't blame them for that.

Though I am genuinely curious to know what you answered to the "why medicine" question during your interviews.

 

[Ismet]

If you can't differentiate the nuance between 1) choosing to enter medicine in the first place to 2) choosing a medical specialty, then I can't help you.

Beat me to it. There's a huge difference between what the article in the OP is about (medicine vs. not medicine) and recent arguments ITT (high paying specialties vs lower paying specialties).

 

[Mad Jack]

Derm doesn't make close to as much as other fields: Rads, Rad Onc, Ortho, Neurosurg, etc.
It definitely doesn't have as much prestige with the public.

I guess it has security, with respect to being a physician.

Derm is actually surprisingly high earning. The average earnings put them 8th behind a lot of other specialties (ortho spine and neurosurg would bump them down to 10th, but Medscape doesn't break down subspecialties), but the earning potential is pretty damn high for those that know how to run a business, with 18% of dermatologists earning 500k or more. Compare that to 16% of radiologists, 11% of anesthesiologists, 23% of cardiologists, 35% of orthopedists, 16% of urologists, 19% of gastroenterologists, and 14% of plastic surgeons making over 500k and you can clearly see that the ceiling for derm is pretty high.

 

[Ismet]

But you can't understand that if your reasons for entering derm aren't because of the money/prestige, then by extension your reasons for a being a physician are not either.

This doesn't make sense to me...?

 

[Mad Jack]

I agree with you that it is a minority of the workforce -- I was just giving counterexamples.

Farmers do work in the winter (at my farm, for example, they prune the fruit trees - which is quite time-consuming). They have told me that winters are less busy.

Yeah, it really depends on the type of farming. I grew up in orchard country, where the farmers themselves would basically just spray crops and prune during the winter, then hire migrant workers to pull down all the apples and cherries during harvest. Most of the migrant workers put in >40 hours a week, but they were only there for perhaps 3 months of the year.

Good examples though, certainly. A cattle rancher will put in more than 40 hours most weeks of the year, and most researchers are looking at 50-60 hours till they die unless they've got a big budget for assistants.

 

[DermViser]

But you can't understand that if your reasons for entering derm aren't because of the money/prestige, then by extension your reasons for a being a physician are not either. And if so, then you are hypocritically criticizing pre-meds for having the same altruistic motivations that you seem to have. You also don't seem to get the point that pre-meds are aware of those aspects, but it is simply too taboo to say them in the admissions game, and you can't blame them for that.

Though I am genuinely curious to know what you answered to the "why medicine" question during your interviews.

I will repeat again, which you probably missed my prior post. Derm doesn't make near as much money as fields such as Cards, GI, Neurosurg, Rads, etc. and the general public does not hold Derm to a high level of prestige.

 

[blackkrim]

Oh I agree. If you look at the data, physicians don't attempt suicide more often, they're just successful a higher percentage of the time because they actually know what they're doing.

Sadly, that sounds true.

----
Here's a couple of thoughts:

I think the thing we need to consider in this discussion is not just medicine by itself, but what the cohort we're looking at (premeds) would choose alternatively. Her fundamental argument seems to be that young doctors/med students are largely unhappy because they entered the field for the wrong reasons. But let's consider what they'd do elsewhere.

Let's say there was no more need for doctors and medicine as a field entirely disappeared. Now take your average premed: intelligent, educated, ambitious, etc. What does she do in this situation? Do we see her suddenly choosing a low stress, low security position? Or is she likely to join a different profession with high stress, high workload, reasonable security/compensation, etc?

It seems to me that the latter is more likely. Assuming that medicine disappeared, I would expect most premeds to enter fields that satisfy both the desire to help (which I think it genuine in most cases) and professional ambitions; probably, this would include stuff like education, science research, law, engineering, social work, etc.

 

[DermViser]

Derm is actually surprisingly high earning. The average earnings put them 8th behind a lot of other specialties (ortho spine and neurosurg would bump them down to 10th, but Medscape doesn't break down subspecialties), but the earning potential is pretty damn high for those that know how to run a business, with 18% of dermatologists earning 500k or more. Compare that to 16% of radiologists, 11% of anesthesiologists, 23% of cardiologists, 35% of orthopedists, 16% of urologists, 19% of gastroenterologists, and 14% of plastic surgeons making over 500k and you can clearly see that the ceiling for derm is pretty high.

And I guarantee nearly all of those 18% live in NYC and LA where there is an actual market for it, which is completely saturated.

 

[Lamel]

This doesn't make sense to me...?

He decided to pursue dermatology based on many reasons, none of which included the money. Was money a consideration when he decided to apply to medical school? If so, why did he pursue a specialty that is relatively "low paying"/low prestige (according to him) and highly competitive? If money was not a consideration when applying to medical school, then he must have been the same as us naive pre-meds. His views and posts in the thread are just inconsistent with what he is trying to say, and I am trying to get a definitive answer out of him.

Though I will admit we have drifted off a tangent from what exactly the original author is saying, but I wasn't necessarily referencing the article when discussing this with him.

Edit: In fact, @DermViser 's signature says that derm is for the "life and money", yet DV didn't mention either of those aspects when saying what he likes about his specialty.

Tell me about it. As a med student it's much easier to understand. Only a premed would believe that the general public believes Dermatology to be prestigious.

Never actually said this.

 

[DermViser]

This doesn't make sense to me...?

Tell me about it. As a med student it's much easier to understand. Only a premed would believe that the general public believes Dermatology to be prestigious.