Third Time Re-applicant - Try DO or call it quits?

[NYPreMed88]

The past two years I've underwent two unsuccessful application cycles to MD programs. I applied to 8 (then 11) schools in the NY/NJ/PA area and received 2 interviews each cycle. My stats are as follows as a non-trad student:

3.6 GPA, 32 MCAT
400 hours ED volunteering
25 hours shadowing a neurologist
4 years research experience working full time in a lab
3 second author publications
4 posters

The only overt red flag I can think of is that my -second- application had issues with line-breks in the activities section, so my publication list looked like a mess. I thought I was generally pleasant on my interviews, though didn't quite connect with one of the student interviewers. I wasn't able to receive feedback from any schools on -why- I was rejected except for some vagueries the first cycle that my PS didn't adequately highlight my motivations: I thought I fixed it!

I'm not going to apply this year but I'd like to re-assess my options. I'd planned to give up this career pah but the more I think about it the more I still want to do it. Still, after 2 failed cycles it seems like a gamble. I was thinking I might...

1) Retake the MCAT. I never took Biochemistry, so I don't know how well I'd do on the new version.

2) Apply for DO. I know most DO schools are more service oriented, so while I might have better stats I don't know if my app. will be well received. I feel like my activities appeal to schools with stats higher than mine I didn't apply to.

3) I feel like as a third-time reapplicant I'll be at a significant disadvantage and not looked upon favorably by virtue of that.

Thanks!

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[GrapesofRath]

1) Your MCAT score is completely fine. However, check to make sure it is still valid whenever you apply. You took the MCAT at least 2 years ago. If you apply next cycle there will definitely be schools that won't accept a 2013 MCAT. Check which ones and adjust accordingly. If many schools you are competitive for don't accept it, it might be worth giving consideration to taking the new one(particularly if your state schools won't accept 2013).

2) You're very competitive for any DO school. Yes whenever you re-apply include DO schools. You'll get IIs with a decent list.

3) There are definitely schools that don't consider 3rd time applicants. It's not a great thing to be but if you apply next cycle with significant improvement you'll still be competitive. The biggest mistake re-applicants make is re-applying to soon without making any real improvement. If you do that, yes it'll cause problems. If you have actually improved a good bit from your last app when you give it another go like I said I think you'll be competitive. Your stats aren't the issue here and given you've had 4 interviews in 2 cycles I don't think there is any glaring red flag in your app.

The most likely culprit in your lack of success probably comes down to two things
a) Poor list of schools. Applying to 8 and 11 schools is not alot at all and its very possible with a thorough list of lower tier schools you would have an acceptance by now. Also its rather possible out of the 8 and 11 you applied to, some weren't good choices(ie wasting apps on schools like Penn, Cornell, NYU or to those like Rutgers if you aren't from NJ).
b) Medicore interviewing skills. You've been through 4 interviews and haven't nabbed an acceptance yet. There is no question your interview has played a role in that. Is it the only thing keeping you from an acceptance? Probably not. But it absolutely is a factor. It's rather hard for ADCOMs also to tell unsuccessful applicants on the phone the reason they weren't accepted is because there interview sucked as well. So whenever you do apply, definitely spend a significant amount of time researching and practicing this.

 

[22031 Alum]

At face value, applying to 8 and then 11 schools with a 3.6/32 tells me that geography is more important than becoming a doctor. I'm not saying that as if it's a bad thing. Plenty of people have significant restrictions due to family or other obligations, and have to accept the fact that a career in medicine (at least, as a physician) might not work out because of their limitations. If this is you, I'd say go for it once more, with DO schools especially. But start seriously considering plan B because geographic limitations are difficult to place on medical education and training. If this isn't you, and you just can't deal with the thought of moving, get over it and apply to a broader range of schools. (I mean that in the nicest way.) At schools you didn't apply to before, you won't be a reapplicant, just a nontrad, so broadening your geographic range and applying both MD and DO will significantly improve your chances.

Good luck.

 

[GrapesofRath]

At face value, applying to 8 and then 11 schools with a 3.6/32 tells me that geography is more important than becoming a doctor. I'm not saying that as if it's a bad thing. Plenty of people have significant restrictions due to family or other obligations, and have to accept the fact that a career in medicine (at least, as a physician) might not work out because of their limitations. If this is you, I'd say go for it once more, with DO schools especially. But start seriously considering plan B because geographic limitations are difficult to place on medical education and training. If this isn't you, and you just can't deal with the thought of moving, get over it and apply to a broader range of schools. (I mean that in the nicest way.) At schools you didn't apply to before, you won't be a reapplicant, just a nontrad, so broadening your geographic range and applying both MD and DO will significantly improve your chances.

Good luck.

While this post as a whole is very accurate one thing worth noting is that many schools ask in secondaries have you applied anywhere in general, not just to your old school. As gyngyn and others have said in the past, schools that asks this will factor in that you are a re-applicant even if it is not to their school.

 

[22031 Alum]

While this post as a whole is very accurate one thing worth noting is that many schools ask in secondaries have you applied anywhere in general, not just to your old school. As gyngyn and others have said in the past, schools that asks this will factor in that you are a re-applicant even if it is not to their school.

I was under the impression that a relative minority of schools did this, but I'll defer to someone who has looked at a secondary in the past decade.

 

[DrMidlife]

Nothing wrong with going after DO now, but in your shoes I'd really want to understand what's not making the sale. You'll be up against the same process for residency in what feels like 5 minutes after med school starts. Public service announcement: any time somebody says "DO schools are more <anything other than forgiving of a lower MCAT/GPA>" that's marketing. DO school is med school. There are close to 200 med schools now, and the differences between them have very very little to do with MD vs. DO.

2 interviews in 2 separate cycles says to me that your interview is at least part of what's tanking you. My suggestion: either hire a professional to work with you, or otherwise find older, unfriendly faculty to mock interview you and give you the feedback you need to improve. Clearly you need to do this months before real interviews so that you can work on your problem areas.

MCAT scores are only good for about 3 years, so I'd be surprised if you can get away with not retaking, for MD or DO. Biochem is a good choice, but also take a humanities and/or sociology class, as those are on the new test. In addition, don't be cheap with test prep.

I agree that only applying to 8 and then 10 schools is about half a list. You don't mention whether you were early/late, and that's a big deal as well. You want a complete submitted app as close to June 1 as possible, and you want secondaries done by the end of the weekend after they arrive.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Goro]

I concur with everything posted here. OP, if you know anyone who work in an HR dep't, seek their advice on interviewing. Or seek out your school's career counseling for interview help.

 

[GrapesofRath]

The harsher the person who is interviewing you is(as long as its not someone with some real connection to you like a family member), the better off you will be. If they sound unreasonable in their judgement of you, sound like they are making way too many assumptions about you or sound like they are making a big deal over inconsequential details, bear in mind this is the way many people who don't get accepted at schools they interview feel when they call that school and the school tells them there interview went poorly.

 

[Dro133]

If they sound unreasonable in their judgement of you, sound like they are making way too many assumptions about you or sound like they are making a big deal over inconsequential details, bear in mind this is the way many people who don't get accepted at schools they interview feel when they call that school and the school tells them there interview went poorly.

Can you elaborate on this?

 

[W19]

If you want to be a physician above all, submit a DO application ASAP! It's not too late in cycle...

 

[Seth Joo]

The past two years I've underwent two unsuccessful application cycles to MD programs. I applied to 8 (then 11) schools in the NY/NJ/PA area and received 2 interviews each cycle. My stats are as follows as a non-trad student:

3.6 GPA, 32 MCAT
400 hours ED volunteering
25 hours shadowing a neurologist
4 years research experience working full time in a lab
3 second author publications
4 posters

The only overt red flag I can think of is that my -second- application had issues with line-breks in the activities section, so my publication list looked like a mess. I thought I was generally pleasant on my interviews, though didn't quite connect with one of the student interviewers. I wasn't able to receive feedback from any schools on -why- I was rejected except for some vagueries the first cycle that my PS didn't adequately highlight my motivations: I thought I fixed it!

I'm not going to apply this year but I'd like to re-assess my options. I'd planned to give up this career pah but the more I think about it the more I still want to do it. Still, after 2 failed cycles it seems like a gamble. I was thinking I might...

1) Retake the MCAT. I never took Biochemistry, so I don't know how well I'd do on the new version.

2) Apply for DO. I know most DO schools are more service oriented, so while I might have better stats I don't know if my app. will be well received. I feel like my activities appeal to schools with stats higher than mine I didn't apply to.

3) I feel like as a third-time reapplicant I'll be at a significant disadvantage and not looked upon favorably by virtue of that.

Thanks!

My stats were similar to yours, I would say go for the DO degree, at least you will become a doctor. Getting into an Allopathic school has become extremely difficult, the DO degree is a decent substitute.

 

[cabinbuilder]

My stats were similar to yours, I would say go for the DO degree, at least you will become a doctor. Getting into an Allopathic school has become extremely difficult, the DO degree is a decent substitute.

Seriously? We are all doctors. The same job with the same pay.

 

[Seth Joo]

Seriously? We are all doctors. The same job with the same pay.

True, but a lot of people still want to be MDs. As you can see the OP made 3 attempts at MD schools, and is thinking of giving up, and only considering DO as an alternative.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

OK, I'm gonna open my mouth.

It's fitting that the premeds still hold their nose and stick out their tongue at the notion of going DO. I nearly did 6 years ago before I got over it and applied.

I had some misgivings about DO school in general but, frankly, it's served me quite well and I can't complain much. Let me elaborate:

- Busted ass in DO school - top 25% of class, step 1>235, step 2 ~250 (and this was 3-4 years ago when those scores actually meant something).

- Applied and matched upper-middle tier ACGME IM. Now I'm sure you're gonna hold your nose and stick out your tongue here too - 'IM? Yuck!' - but politely just shut up and listen. (I mean this in the nicest way, btw.) I initially considered everything from rads to anesthesiology to EM to PM&R, among other things. I could have matched any of them (and yes, as an ACGME candidate). Really. I wanted internal medicine at the end.

- Got two years into IM residency, did a rotation in rheumatology and decided I loved it. Got great letters and my PD wrote a baller letter based on my outstanding evaluations. I'm going on interviews now. Now I'm sure some of you will hold your nose and stick out your tongue at this too - 'Rheum? Yuck! Isn't that just fibro and the physicians get paid crap?' Again, politely shut up and listen - fellows at my program are being inundated with offers with starting salaries are in the $235-275k range plus $25-50k signon bonuses, and this is often for working 4 days a week. Money hungry? Work 5 days a week. Call is extremely low impact. Rheum is seriously underserved, and pay is increasing as we start to do things like become certified to read (and bill) for our own ultrasounds etc. We have procedures (joint injections). And it ain't all fibro either (unless you want it to be). The wildest, most intriguing disease states in most subspecialties are rheumatologic. This is what we do all day long.

Guys, I interviewed at an Ivy League institution recently for rheum - multiple faculty members were DOs. If it's good enough for them, it's probably good enough for your precious ass (again, mods, I say this in jest). They don't pick up garbage around these places.

Later in the season, I'm going to the Mayo Clinic, Northwestern, the University of Michigan, etc for interviews. This DO 'scarlet letter' didn't hurt me much.

I bitched a bit about being osteopathic when I was in school - read my old posts if you want - but **** it, I'm proud of being a DO and proud of what I've done with the degree and where I've gotten and if I could do it all over again I'd go DO rather than walking around with my thumb up my ass for another year hoping that an MD school deigns to admit me. My MD colleagues don't think anything of it, and if 'DO bias' is mentioned they furrow their brows and go 'really? Why is it like that? That's a shame' etc. Several of our best residents are DOs. Our program has had at least one DO chief for the last several years. One upcoming chief from our class is a DO.

And now I'll get off my soapbox.

Also, OP: you have a choice between applying to more schools or not becoming a doctor. As other posters have stated, get over it and apply broadly. If you'd done this the first time, you'd probably be starting clinical rotations right about now.

 

[Goro]

Just a tangential comment on my young colleagues wise words; having sat in on our Immunology lectures, Rheumatology is a challenging subject and it certainly won't be one of those "seen one, seem 'em all" patient presentations. It's a field that will keep you on your toes.
Has a decent anatomy component, too, which is fine by me.

The Dean of TUNCOM is a rheumatologist, BTW.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled SDN thread.

- Got two years into IM residency, did a rotation in rheumatology and decided I loved it. Got great letters and my PD wrote a baller letter based on my outstanding evaluations. I'm going on interviews now. Now I'm sure some of you will hold your nose and stick out your tongue at this too - 'Rheum? Yuck! Isn't that just fibro and the physicians get paid crap?' Again, politely shut up and listen - fellows at my program are being inundated with offers with starting salaries are in the $235-275k range plus $25-50k signon bonuses, and this is often for working 4 days a week. Money hungry? Work 5 days a week. Call is extremely low impact. Rheum is seriously underserved, and pay is increasing as we start to do things like become certified to read (and bill) for our own ultrasounds etc. We have procedures (joint injections). And it ain't all fibro either (unless you want it to be). The wildest, most intriguing disease states in most subspecialties are rheumatologic. This is what we do all day long.

Guys, I interviewed at an Ivy League institution recently for rheum - multiple faculty members were DOs. If it's good enough for them, it's probably good enough for your precious ass (again, mods, I say this in jest). They don't pick up garbage around these places.

Later in the season, I'm going to the Mayo Clinic, Northwestern, the University of Michigan, etc for interviews. This DO 'scarlet letter' didn't hurt me much.

I bitched a bit about being osteopathic when I was in school - read my old posts if you want - but **** it, I'm proud of being a DO and proud of what I've done with the degree and where I've gotten and if I could do it all over again I'd go DO rather than walking around with my thumb up my ass for another year hoping that an MD school deigns to admit me. My MD colleagues don't think anything of it, and if 'DO bias' is mentioned they furrow their brows and go 'really? Why is it like that? That's a shame' etc. Several of our best residents are DOs. Our program has had at least one DO chief for the last several years. One upcoming chief from our class is a DO.

And now I'll get off my soapbox.

Also, OP: you have a choice between applying to more schools or not becoming a doctor. As other posters have stated, get over it and apply broadly. If you'd done this the first time, you'd probably be starting clinical rotations right about now.

 

[doit4humanity]

Wow with that stat and you want to call it quit? I would have applied DO two cycles ago and be 2 years closer to becoming a doctor!

 

[familyaerospace]

Your GPA is higher than mine, your MCAT was as well. I had 3 publications and 5 presentations. I was accepted in round 4 to an MD program off the waitlist (third year on waitlist). I see no reason to think you can't get into a DO school.

I would recommend throwing some primary care shadowing in your application as both MD and DO like seeing it especially given how much DO aim for primary care.

How are your volunteering hours? Medical? Non-medical?

Please take Biochemistry. As someone who just failed it in medical school, I really advise taking it if you can before hand. Not a single school I attended prior had it available when I was there so that hurt me... badly. A lot of schools are making it a requirement anyway.

I would be really surprised if a formatting issue is what killed your chances. Did you get on a waitlist or did you get rejected outright? Could be an interviewing issue.

 

[coolbeans151]

Maybe you said it somewhere and I didn't see it, but I'm almost positive I know what undergrad you went to based on some stuff you said. Annoyingly tough school and I'm sure you worked very hard for your GPA. Just came here to say good luck and I wish you all the best!

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

I was a third time reapp and got in, so there is hope! But definitely definitely definitely apply DO, or else there is a chance you will not be a physician at all. I didn't and got lucky with a few MD acceptances, but it definitely only hurts the wallet and some time to apply both.

 

[Tenk]

I got into med school on my third application. Like you, my first two cycles were all local (and CA based). My scores/GPA were amazing but I was cocky and dumb so I thought it would be a sure thing. I was wrong.

I would recommend applying broadly and also out of state/region. Look for schools that match a high % of out of state candidates.

Yes, it sucks moving but the library in Ohio is the same as the library in NY. All that matters about med school is how much you study. Once you're an attending nobody gives a crap where you went to med school, just how often you want to work.

 

[bopper]

I once watched a documentary about a person with asthma who wanted to summit Mt. Everest without oxygen, to prove to everyone that he/asthmatics could do it. He was about to fail his third attempt, when his guide said something like "Do you want to be a guy who tried 3 times to summit without oxygen, or do you want to be someone who has summited Mt Everest?' He chose to summit with oxygen.

So do you want to possibly fail a third time at going to MD school in a narrow area, or do you want to be a physician?