Thoughts: what is a major problem facing osteopathic medicine ?

[PlasticBag]

Also the Romanian example is unfortunate because EU grads are favoured even if a US DO could beat some Eastern European doctors on every competency.

EU prefers EU grads just like the US prefers US grads. Also, medical education in Eastern Europe might not be as bad as you think (and there probably are some "Eastern European doctors who could beat some US DO on every competency"). I don't see why US grads, MD or DO, would be given any preference in the EU.

Either way, there are always hassles (for everyone, not just Americans) associated with using professional degrees (medical, clinical psych, nursing, not to mention law) in a foreign country.

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[Awesome Sauceome]

Since people are on this topic, its also important to note, that there is a difference between practicing in another country and doing volunteer/aid work. I think this is important for those interested in volunteer work abroad. DOs working for some sort of foreign aid group can practice pretty much everywhere, their only limitation for the most part is the group that they can get in to. The only exception to this I believe is in Asia where in some countries DOs are still viewed as some form of chiropractor. So lets say you want to join the red cross or something and do work in a country that "doesnt let DOs practice." More than likely you absolutely can still go there and practice medicine with the red cross. It just means that if you wanted to move to that country and transfer your license over, then the degree is not accepted in that country.

It is semantics but when discussing "practicing" in another country, it more or less means moving to that country and setting up shop. Which as others have brought up, its extremely hard to do regardless of your profession - licensing for almost every profession varies dramatically by country.

So lets use Ireland for example, as others have brought it up... DOs will not be able, at this current time, to go over, become a citizen of the country, and then transfer their license and practice medicine... Butttt lets say aid based work was being done in Ireland, DOs absolutely can practice, so long as they are traveling over via an aid group... The licensing/"ability to practice" stuff is more of a temporary vs permanent argument. If you are looking to become a citizen and transfer your medical license, you wont be able to in some countries, as a DO... but honestly even as an MD that is challenging for a majority of countries. BUT if you are going on some sort of temporary visa or something where you are providing humanitarian aid via some larger entity, I am telling you, it is 100% possible in almost any country on earth. Your qualifications to practice in that case will be check by the aid group itself, NOT the country that you would be visiting, as I understand it... So in that case you would communicate your qualifications to the aid group who will then tell the country "we have X amount of physicians coming, we checked them and they look good." You would not be going directly to the country and explaining your degree. That is the case ONLY if you are trying to permanently transfer your license and become a physician in that country.

So again, for most people who are not planning on moving to some poverty stricken country, but would still like to do international humanitarian medical work. You absolutely can... I know its semantics, but for most people that I know, they assume "cannot practice" means that they literally cannot enter the country and practice medicine. BUT what "cannot practice" really means is that the license will not transfer to the country, not that they cant do aid based work.

Just thought I would throw that in there, since it is a subtle but important distinction to make.

 

[puppylatte]

EU prefers EU grads just like the US prefers US grads. Also, medical education in Eastern Europe might not be as bad as you think (and there probably are some "Eastern European doctors who could beat some US DO on every competency"). I don't see why US grads, MD or DO, would be given any preference in the EU.

Either way, there are always hassles (for everyone, not just Americans) associated with using professional degrees (medical, clinical psych, nursing, not to mention law) in a foreign country.

US MDs can write the licensing exam in Ireland but US DOs cannot. So the distinction I was trying to make isn't about all American doctors in the EU. It's about US MDs getting preference over DOs in the EU simply because their degree says "MD." A short google search revealed that this may be true for Belgium and Denmark as well. DOs are barred from even attempting to write the licensing exam because they do not have one of the accepted primary medical qualifications which include the US MD, the MBBS, B.Med, etc. This creates a situation where African doctors can write the exam but US DOs cannot. It's really silly and hopefully it can change. The fact that DOs are barred is more an issue of omission rather than deliberate, I'd bet.

 

[jmh7]

haha i love the irish............. they need to get with the program and talk to the brits in london......

Ireland
Year of Last Request: 1999
Scope of Practice: denied

The AOA has written numerous letters to various government agencies in Ireland. At its August 1998 meeting, the Education and Training Committee reviewed pertinent information regarding the osteopathic education and training. The Medical Council on the recommendation of its Education and Training Committee decided to once again deny licensure to U.S.‑trained D.O.s because osteopathic medical schools are not recognized by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education, the U.S. allopathic medical school accreditation body. In 2000, the AOA once again wrote to The Medical Council on the behalf of a U.S. educated D.O. who will be traveling with an American sports group as the team physician to compete in Ireland. The request was for approval to treat U.S. citizen while in Ireland. The response from The Medical Council has been that they will take the matter under consideration.

Contact: Registrar, Medical Council of Ireland
Lynn House, Portobello Court
Lower Rathmines Road
Dublin 6
IRELAND
http://www.medicalcouncil.ie
353.149.831.00

 

[Major]

Also I am concerned about some DO residencies being shutdown because they won't meet the new standards...Whatever those might be


A lot of DO programs are underfunded compared to many MD programs, and they aren't in 900 bed mega hospitals.

A lot of the DO programs might not have the glitz and glamour of many of the mega MD programs, but they still treat many underserved populations that might not receive any treatment-especially in the more rural country states.

Just because a certain DO program might not have all the Bucks of a MD program, doesn't mean they are providing any less standard form of care...

So if the merger does fully go through, I really hope a lot of the DO programs survive the new standards, and the bottom one's are brought up with whatever help can be afforded

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I'll reiterate -- I contributed on-topic specific knowledge about international practice rights for the thread. You chose to respond by rolling your eyes and implying that it wasn't a big deal. You went out of your way to do that. This thread is supposed to be a compilation of issues facing DOs. I contribute one sentence and you jump all over it just to make a snarky remark. I ask you to stop being snarky and you reply with "it's not about you?" Real mature. But to get back on topic I disagreed with your implication that it's not a big deal and will further clarify there are 25 million people in the USA that have a claim to Irish citizenship and many thousands of those are first generation with immediate family ties to the region so this is relevant to American DOs. I don't go around thinking I'm the only one and that is why I came to this thread to say that you cannot practice in Ireland as DO.

 

[user3]

It will be interesting to see what the acgme does with the OMM heavy AOA residencies.

 

[HoboCommander]

It will be interesting to see what the acgme does with the OMM heavy AOA residencies.

I've talked to those involved in pure OMM/NMM specialty and even they understand that they will have to start accepting MDs, so of course some IM residency that emphasizes OMM would have to do the same.

 

[PlasticBag]

US MDs can write the licensing exam in Ireland but US DOs cannot. So the distinction I was trying to make isn't about all American doctors in the EU. It's about US MDs getting preference over DOs in the EU simply because their degree says "MD." A short google search revealed that this may be true for Belgium and Denmark as well. DOs are barred from even attempting to write the licensing exam because they do not have one of the accepted primary medical qualifications which include the US MD, the MBBS, B.Med, etc. This creates a situation where African doctors can write the exam but US DOs cannot. It's really silly and hopefully it can change. The fact that DOs are barred is more an issue of omission rather than deliberate, I'd bet.

I agree it is regrettable that MDs can get licensed there and DOs cannot. I think the merger will possibly help with international recognition of the DO degree.

However, I was referring to your comment about preference being given to a Romanian doctor a not a US grad, in which you stated that some US grads are better in "any competency" than an Eastern European doctor. I just believe that the EU has the right to prefer their own doctors, whether from Eastern Europe or elsewhere in the EU, and Americans shouldn't feel entitled to those jobs in a foreign country because "they are better". Sorry if I misinterpreted but it just sounded a bit like American entitlement. At least you don't have to go through residency again if you're a DO or MD practicing in Europe (aside from Ireland that won't recognize your degree )? I might be wrong but I think an attending from Oxford, if he/she wanted to practice here, would need to do residency all over again. There is a certain double standard here.

 

[puppylatte]

I agree it is regrettable that MDs can get licensed there and DOs cannot. I think the merger will possibly help with international recognition of the DO degree.

However, I was referring to your comment about preference being given to a Romanian doctor a not a US grad, in which you stated that some US grads are better in "any competency" than an Eastern European doctor. I just believe that the EU has the right to prefer their own doctors, whether from Eastern Europe or elsewhere in the EU, and Americans shouldn't feel entitled to those jobs in a foreign country because "they are better". Sorry if I misinterpreted but it just sounded a bit like American entitlement. At least you don't have to go through residency again if you're a DO or MD practicing in Europe (aside from Ireland that won't recognize your degree )? I might be wrong but I think an attending from Oxford, if he/she wanted to practice here, would need to do residency all over again. There is a certain double standard here.

Sorry but my comment was taken out of context. I was conceding to the other person's point about the malpractice by a doctor who just so happened to be Romanian. just to reiterate my argument. Anyway I actually agree with you and I definitely don't think DOs are universally better than Romanian drs. It would be a logical fallacy to even make a claim like that. I was just responding to another poster who was talking about the malpractice issue with a doctor (who just so happened to be Romanian). Also, I can't have American entitlement unless I'm American, right?

 

[costales]

I might be wrong but I think an attending from Oxford, if he/she wanted to practice here, would need to do residency all over again.

That is correct (although in many states a foreign-trained attending may apply for a limited one-year faculty temporary license to practice within the confines of an eligible sponsoring institution that employs them at a salaried professorial rank).

 

[darklabel]

I'm confused about the merge for residency programs, so ultimately MDs will have a chance to apply and have a greater chance to get a sub specialty since more MDS will be applying and potentially taking the spots that were previously only for DOs. Can anyone clarify ?

So? People on here praise how DO's match into competitive specialties in the ACGME. Seems only fair MD students get a chance at matching into AOA programs as well.

And one of the biggest problems is using COMLEX instead of USMLE. I think DOs should just switch over and then have a special OMM subsection you guys would have to take after.

 

[IslandStyle808]

So? People on here praise how DO's match into competitive specialties in the ACGME. Seems only fair MD students get a chance at matching into AOA programs as well.

And one of the biggest problems is using COMLEX instead of USMLE. I think DOs should just switch over and then have a special OMM subsection you guys would have to take after.

I have to concur with you darklabel yet again. DO students have liked the USMLE far more than the COMLEX and rightfully so. The bolded has been said by quite a few members on here.

 

[Uafl112]

from the DO physician that I got my letter of rec from, its really Osteopathic Medicine's fault for not recording their research into which OMT procedures work and which dont to help prove to the medical world that OMT isnt quackery.

 

[DrEnderW]

from the DO physician that I got my letter of rec from, its really Osteopathic Medicine's fault for not recording their research into which OMT procedures work and which dont to help prove to the medical world that OMT isnt quackery.

Yes!

It's shameful how many OMM faculty members there are that do not produce relevant research. The fact that you can have entire departments of "academic" faculty at a medical school with zero academic output in a specialty that lacks credibility is ridiculous.

 

[Mad Jack]

This has not been confirmed. Whereas the fact that all current DO residencies will be forced to take applications from MDs is absolutely confirmed.

This will be a reality, they just haven't decided when officially. Estimates were for 2020 or so last I checked.

 

[Mad Jack]

from the DO physician that I got my letter of rec from, its really Osteopathic Medicine's fault for not recording their research into which OMT procedures work and which dont to help prove to the medical world that OMT isnt quackery.

*coughcranialcough*

 

[Uafl112]

*coughcranialcough*

That was specifically the one he mentioned to me lmao

 

[Captain Toad]

So I'm not sure how DOs would benefit from the merger ? Wouldn't it make it more competitive to get residency spots considering you the larger pool of MD and Do applicants ?

Don't be scared to compete.

From my perspective, it benefits mds more than dos

 

[Captain Toad]

I seriously doubt it. There's money at play with all the new schools and the easier regulations to build a DO school. I think at the end of the day it'll just be DMD/DDS in the medical world. The only way I see a change happening is when we reach the limits of residency because then it'll be about making schools stronger, and before that happens, I can see the 2 tier system where all US MD/DO must match first before any spots go to IMG/FMG.

Why all the hate for foreign trained doctors? I don't hate do's for their different training, and you shouldn't hate others for their different training.

Some of the best doctors i've seen were foreign trained. They can be very smart.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

So? People on here praise how DO's match into competitive specialties in the ACGME. Seems only fair MD students get a chance at matching into AOA programs as well.

And one of the biggest problems is using COMLEX instead of USMLE. I think DOs should just switch over and then have a special OMM subsection you guys would have to take after.

I don't understand how an MD can do an AOA residency without taking osteopathic principles and practice. I think they should either have to take an OPP course or the comlex if they went an AOA residency. Or if the COMLEX went away and DOs just took an additional section that section should have to be taken by MDs that want AOA then.

However I don't think very many MDs are gonna be interested in taking AOA spots. Far more DOs would go ACGME is my guess.

 

[Captain Toad]

I don't understand how an MD can do an AOA residency without taking osteopathic principles and practice. I think they should either have to take an OPP course or the comlex if they went an AOA residency. Or if the COMLEX went away and DOs just took an additional section that section should have to be taken by MDs that want AOA then.

However I don't think very many MDs are gonna be interested in taking AOA spots. Far more DOs would go ACGME is my guess.

For competitive spots you will see mds applying.

 

[darklabel]

I don't understand how an MD can do an AOA residency without taking osteopathic principles and practice. I think they should either have to take an OPP course or the comlex if they went an AOA residency. Or if the COMLEX went away and DOs just took an additional section that section should have to be taken by MDs that want AOA then.

However I don't think very many MDs are gonna be interested in taking AOA spots. Far more DOs would go ACGME is my guess.

Genuinely curious if any of the competitive, non-primary care specialties actually incorporates OMM or not. If its important and used extensively enough that it can't be taught in the residency program then I guess that should be address. But from what I've read, nearly every DO graduate, besides maybe those in primary care, doesn't use OMM at all and I don't see how they could use it in Ortho, neurosurg, etc. Also, you can apply to ACGME spots with COMLEX only if the program wishes to accept that so idk why an MD would have to take the COMLEX.

You'll have a lot of MD's applying for the competitive specialties, the primary care ones though, I doubt unless its for location reason or large blemishes like failed step 1, etc.

 

[Captain Toad]

Genuinely curious if any of the competitive, non-primary care specialties actually incorporates OMM or not. If its important and used extensively enough that it can't be taught in the residency program then I guess that should be address. But from what I've read, nearly every DO graduate, besides maybe those in primary care, doesn't use OMM at all and I don't see how they could use it in Ortho, neurosurg, etc. Also, you can apply to ACGME spots with COMLEX only if the program wishes to accept that so idk why an MD would have to take the COMLEX.

You'll have a lot of MD's applying for the competitive specialties, the primary care ones though, I doubt unless its for location reason or large blemishes like failed step 1, etc.

Agree with this assessment

 

[cliquesh]

Genuinely curious if any of the competitive, non-primary care specialties actually incorporates OMM or not. If its important and used extensively enough that it can't be taught in the residency program then I guess that should be address. But from what I've read, nearly every DO graduate, besides maybe those in primary care, doesn't use OMM at all and I don't see how they could use it in Ortho, neurosurg, etc. Also, you can apply to ACGME spots with COMLEX only if the program wishes to accept that so idk why an MD would have to take the COMLEX.

You'll have a lot of MD's applying for the competitive specialties, the primary care ones though, I doubt unless its for location reason or large blemishes like failed step 1, etc.

You may not use OMM in many AOA residencies, even family medicine residencies, but all AOA residencies have OMM educational requirements (lectures and practicals), so I understand why a MD might need to demonstrate some basic understanding of OMM.

I actually think OMM is awesome if you're good at it. It's great for back pain and other MSK complaints. Since graduating, however, I've only used OMM on my wife.

 

[Captain Toad]

You may not use OMM in many AOA residencies, even family medicine residencies, but all AOA residencies have OMM educational requirements (lectures and practicals), so I understand why a MD might need to demonstrate some basic understanding of OMM.

I actually think OMM is awesome if you're good at it. It's great for back pain and other MSK complaints. Since graduating, however, I've only used OMM on my wife.

If you don't use it, why keep it?

 

[DrEnderW]

From my perspective, it benefits mds more than dos

It may not help bottom of the barrel DOs, but it will significantly help DO students who want to do fellowships. Eventually, it will lead to a joint match to allow students to apply to both ACGME and AOA programs without forgoing the AOA match (this helps the very competitive DO students going for AOA surgical subspecialties, derm, GS, rads, etc). It will help DOs secure jobs because all residency training will have the same accreditation and essentially equalizes medical training by the time you're an attending (aside from academic prestige of the program which still matters). MDs will have to do mandatory OMM competency training and will be competing for community program positions ran by DO PDs - these will not be top MD students and they will be competing for spots selected by DOs who have been taking DO students for years. Sure, they may take an MD if they are a better applicant, but the MD factor will not be as important to community programs filled with DOs and selected by DOs.

I don't understand how an MD can do an AOA residency without taking osteopathic principles and practice. I think they should either have to take an OPP course or the comlex if they went an AOA residency.

There will me mandatory OMM competency requirements. As far as I understand, this is already pretty much agreed upon.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

It may not help bottom of the barrel DOs, but it will significantly help DO students who want to do fellowships. Eventually, it will lead to a joint match to allow students to apply to both ACGME and AOA programs without forgoing the AOA match (this helps the very competitive DO students going for AOA surgical subspecialties, derm, GS, rads, etc). It will help DOs secure jobs because all residency training will have the same accreditation and essentially equalizes medical training by the time you're an attending (aside from academic prestige of the program which still matters). MDs will have to do mandatory OMM competency training and will be competing for community program positions ran by DO PDs - these will not be top MD students and they will be competing for spots selected by DOs who have been taking DO students for years. Sure, they may take an MD if they are a better applicant, but the MD factor will not be as important to community programs filled with DOs and selected by DOs.



There will me mandatory OMM competency requirements. As far as I understand, this is already pretty much agreed upon.

If that's in place I'm for it. However I don't see MDs doing it but who knows.

 

[DrEnderW]

If that's in place I'm for it. However I don't see MDs doing it but who knows.

Every person I've heard from that was directly involved with the negotiations has relayed this. However, as we saw with the first round of discussions, things can change. It's hard to know who or what to believe because everyone has an agenda and nothing is official. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Genuinely curious if any of the competitive, non-primary care specialties actually incorporates OMM or not. If its important and used extensively enough that it can't be taught in the residency program then I guess that should be address. But from what I've read, nearly every DO graduate, besides maybe those in primary care, doesn't use OMM at all and I don't see how they could use it in Ortho, neurosurg, etc. Also, you can apply to ACGME spots with COMLEX only if the program wishes to accept that so idk why an MD would have to take the COMLEX.

You'll have a lot of MD's applying for the competitive specialties, the primary care ones though, I doubt unless its for location reason or large blemishes like failed step 1, etc.

@ the bolded. Because if you have a DO PD who is still not used to reading USMLE scores, then he or she will interpret them incorrectly, if the MD graduate applies to that formerly DO residency. It is the same as the MD PDs. This won't be an issue much later down the line, but currently it could be.

It may not help bottom of the barrel DOs, but it will significantly help DO students who want to do fellowships. Eventually, it will lead to a joint match to allow students to apply to both ACGME and AOA programs without forgoing the AOA match (this helps the very competitive DO students going for AOA surgical subspecialties, derm, GS, rads, etc). It will help DOs secure jobs because all residency training will have the same accreditation and essentially equalizes medical training by the time you're an attending (aside from academic prestige of the program which still matters). MDs will have to do mandatory OMM competency training and will be competing for community program positions ran by DO PDs - these will not be top MD students and they will be competing for spots selected by DOs who have been taking DO students for years. Sure, they may take an MD if they are a better applicant, but the MD factor will not be as important to community programs filled with DOs and selected by DOs.

Are really not from the illuminati? Because you see to have all this detailed info that is just spot on correct.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Why all the hate for foreign trained doctors? I don't hate do's for their different training, and you shouldn't hate others for their different training.

Some of the best doctors i've seen were foreign trained. They can be very smart.

I don't hate anyone, but residency is paid for by the American taxpayers. The schools in the US are either funded by the taxpayers or pay taxes to the United States. If it gets to the point where we need to prioritize American graduates, we should.

 

[GUH]

@ the bolded. Because if you have a DO PD who is still not used to reading USMLE scores, then he or she will interpret them incorrectly, if the MD graduate applies to that formerly DO residency. It is the same as the MD PDs. This won't be an issue much later down the line, but currently it could be.

Except for the fact that the merger ("unification") will bar AOA-trained DOs from being in charge of programs without a special exemption.
yeah, that not-so-little hiccup has still not been worked out and yet we have heard nada from the AOA or ACGME with regards to getting that part reversed. Some might view this as evidence that this "deal" was one-sided.

And to reply to the earlier post, where exactly did you hear about a 2020 time frame for the combined match? Because I have not read or heard anything like that from any reliable source.

 

[GUH]

It may not help bottom of the barrel DOs, but it will significantly help DO students who want to do fellowships.

Not all of us care to do fellowships. And not all those who don't care are bottom of the barrel doctors. I would guess that most DOs today don't do fellowships.

Eventually, it will lead to a joint match to allow students to apply to both ACGME and AOA programs without forgoing the AOA match (this helps the very competitive DO students going for AOA surgical subspecialties, derm, GS, rads, etc).

Still has not been confirmed.

It will help DOs secure jobs because all residency training will have the same accreditation and essentially equalizes medical training by the time you're an attending (aside from academic prestige of the program which still matters). MDs will have to do mandatory OMM competency training and will be competing for community program positions ran by DO PDs - these will not be top MD students and they will be competing for spots selected by DOs who have been taking DO students for years. Sure, they may take an MD if they are a better applicant, but the MD factor will not be as important to community programs filled with DOs and selected by DOs.

Again, the plan specifically excludes AOA-trained DOs from being PDs. They will have to have MD "co-PDs" to help them. Which is odd given that the merger has been advertised as evidence that the ACGME is ready to treat us as equals.

 

[IslandStyle808]

Except for the fact that the merger ("unification") will bar AOA-trained DOs from being in charge of programs without a special exemption.
yeah, that not-so-little hiccup has still not been worked out and yet we have heard nada from the AOA or ACGME with regards to getting that part reversed. Some might view this as evidence that this "deal" was one-sided.

And to reply to the earlier post, where exactly did you hear about a 2020 time frame for the combined match? Because I have not read or heard anything like that from any reliable source.

I checked my former posts on this thread and I never mentioned about 2020 being the date of the combined match. I admit reading about it from another member, but I could not find any confirming evidence.

 

[Captain Toad]

I don't hate anyone, but residency is paid for by the American taxpayers. The schools in the US are either funded by the taxpayers or pay taxes to the United States. If it gets to the point where we need to prioritize American graduates, we should.

What are you talking about?

By in large, foreign match rates are much worst than md/do. We already have higher priority than they do.

You sound very ignorant and overly negative for no good reason.

 

[DrEnderW]

Not all of us care to do fellowships. And not all those who don't care are bottom of the barrel doctors. I would guess that most DOs today don't do fellowships.

I didn't mean to link the two of those together. I definitely do not believe a fellowship is a requirement to make you a good doctors. As you know, the majority of MDs don't do fellowships either and I am not even sure if I want to do one. I think it's crucial to have that option open, however.

Still has not been confirmed.

Agreed. I doubt either of us will be affected by this, if and when it does happen. I've heard AOA leadership say they do support a merger and why I say eventually. This is more of a multiple years down the road kind of thing. Without a joint match, MDs would have to forgo the ACGME match to go AOA, something only extremely uncompetitive applicants would do and I don't even know if this is plausible or will ever be allowed. The only way the MDs would have access to historically AOA spots would be a joint match. Since of of the goals of the merger on the ACGME side was to increase residency spots for their grads, it makes sense they'd push this agenda. This is just me speculating though.

Again, the plan specifically excludes AOA-trained DOs from being PDs. They will have to have MD "co-PDs" to help them. Which is odd given that the merger has been advertised as evidence that the ACGME is ready to treat us as equals.

This is a potential big source of concern - it's a great point to bring up. I'm not very well versed on this specific aspect but I'm with you on this one. I'm curious to see how things develop. Please let us know if you hear anything more about it.

What are you talking about?

By in large, foreign match rates are much worst than md/do. We already have higher priority than they do.

I don't think he's trying to be hostile or ignorant. He's just stating that tax dollars fund US residency programs and with a shortage of funding, it's plausible that US grads would continue or increasingly be favored. I think he's more referring to in the coming years when US MDs and DOs feel the residency crunch.

 

[GUH]

I checked my former posts on this thread and I never mentioned about 2020 being the date of the combined match. I admit reading about it from another member, but I could not find any confirming evidence.

Sorry; you are correct. That was posted by another member.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Except for the fact that the merger ("unification") will bar AOA-trained DOs from being in charge of programs without a special exemption.
yeah, that not-so-little hiccup has still not been worked out and yet we have heard nada from the AOA or ACGME with regards to getting that part reversed. Some might view this as evidence that this "deal" was one-sided.

And to reply to the earlier post, where exactly did you hear about a 2020 time frame for the combined match? Because I have not read or heard anything like that from any reliable source.

http://www.aacom.org/news/latest/Pages/SingleGME_FAQs.aspx

2020 all AOA programs will be acgme

Single match info is on this page. No timeframe.

Will there be a single match?

The match for ACGME programs is administered by the National Residency Match Program (NRMP) and not the ACGME. Consequently, this is an issue that can be resolved only when NRMP joins our discussions. However, if all programs are considered ACGME accredited, it is likely there ultimately will be one match.

As AOA programs get approved by the ACGME, will they participate in the allopathic match instead of the AOA match?

The ACGME does not administer the match nor set rules governing its operations. However, AACOM, the AOA, and the ACGME are aware of the match issue and will be monitoring it closely. We expect to begin conversations with the NRMP and the National Matching Services, which administers the AOA match, to determine the best way to administer the match during the transition process.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

What are you talking about?

By in large, foreign match rates are much worst than md/do. We already have higher priority than they do.

You sound very ignorant and overly negative for no good reason.

We do have higher priority at most programs, but you should see the match statistics where a large number of US MD and DO went unmatched. Sorry if you're so ignorant as to believe I am.

 

[user3]

I don't think he's trying to be hostile or ignorant. He's just stating that tax dollars fund US residency programs and with a shortage of funding, it's plausible that US grads would continue or increasingly be favored. I think he's more referring to in the coming years when US MDs and DOs feel the residency crunch.

Hopefully so. It is upsetting to see US med students go unmatched every year even in specialties where spots outnumber US applicants.

 

[Captain Toad]

We do have higher priority at most programs, but you should see the match statistics where a large number of US MD and DO went unmatched. Sorry if you're so ignorant as to believe I am.

oh ignorance. Go look what specialties most of those people were applying and went unmatched.

I'm going to keep this professional, but I think you have a lot of misconceptions. foreign medical graduates are not pushing out us md/do

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

oh ignorance. Go look what specialties most of those people were applying and went unmatched.

I'm going to keep this professional, but I think you have a lot of misconceptions. foreign medical graduates are not pushing out us md/do

You already crossed that professionalism line. I'm not under any misconceptions. By enlarge we are insulated from them applying, so why are you so worried about creating a two tier system where they match after we all match? It's so weird how you oppose something that supposedly is already the case.

 

[Captain Toad]

You already crossed that professionalism line. I'm not under any misconceptions. By enlarge we are insulated from them applying, so why are you so worried about creating a two tier system where they match after we all match? It's so weird how you oppose something that supposedly is already the case.

Ripping on your future peers and current educators is not professional

 

[costales]

Nobody "hates" IMGs on here - people are just repeating the official prognosis. Even IMGs I know agree there is a crunch coming and fewer IMGs will match in the near future. The AAMC explicitly stated a goal of reducing dependence on IMGs in its call for a 30% increase in MD school enrollment.

 

[Mad Jack]

Except for the fact that the merger ("unification") will bar AOA-trained DOs from being in charge of programs without a special exemption.
yeah, that not-so-little hiccup has still not been worked out and yet we have heard nada from the AOA or ACGME with regards to getting that part reversed. Some might view this as evidence that this "deal" was one-sided.

And to reply to the earlier post, where exactly did you hear about a 2020 time frame for the combined match? Because I have not read or heard anything like that from any reliable source.

This deal was mostly one sided. The ACGME threatened to go nuclear on the AOA, they had no choice but to fold.

 

[petyr_baelish]

A great read.

 

[Seth Joo]

lucom

If only that were true, the reality is that there are now too many schools, and too many schools do not provide adequate clinical education to their students. Anyone can give a good basic science education, that is not hard, but a good clinical curriculum seems beyond the ability of many DO schools, even some that have been around for nearly 20 years.

 

[j4pac]

If you compare MD vs DO medical education, the big difference is clinical education. MDs typically go to well established teaching hospitals with set curriculum...DO schools go to smaller, non-teaching hospitals often without set curriculum.

 

[meliora27]

The lack of consistency and quality with DO clinical education is hardly a secret. The question I wonder about is whether that AOA/AACOM/COCA can fix it or even want to fix it...?

 

[Seth Joo]

The lack of consistency and quality with DO clinical education is hardly a secret. The question I wonder about is whether that AOA/AACOM/COCA can fix it or even want to fix it...?

Well its a real problem.