Too many pharmacy schools? One dean of a $72,000/year program says no

[Trent Steele]

Read the article below. This is the crap AACP is spouting as well. Feel free to leave your comments on the actual artice as well.

http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.com/drug-topics/news/too-many-pharmacy-schools-one-dean-says-no

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[BMBiology]

Citing this study again but yet, no one actually knows how it got its results:

"We also noted in early 2012 that the Pharmacy Manpower Aggregate Demand Index, which gauges need as accurately as any predictor might in an incredibly complex industry, was trending toward the upper half of balance of demand and need toward demand-need imbalance with the beginning signs of moderate demand."

Oh yeah, lets look at who is behind this mysterious study:

http://www.pharmacymanpower.com/contact.jsp

 

[Gombrich12]

Good for them, if I could open a business where I could charge whatever I wanted and was funded by the US government I would do the same. The way to stop these schools is to keep telling pre-pharmacy students the truth about debt and job prospects. Pharmacy isn't the most intellectually demanding career but there is a base level of intelligence needed to do the coursework and complete rotations. Eventually the schools will run out of qualified applicants and begin to downsize or even close. We've already seen OU and UF do it, I don't expect any of these recent private schools to do the same though.

If we're right about job prospects being dim in the near future I feel the problem will correct itself within a decade. Despite all the complaining people do now the job market isn't that bad, if it really turns sour I can't imagine the uproar from people. I'm surprised we don't hear anything from older pharmacy schools, they could really suffer when the applicant pool drops off and the schools are still trying to fill 15,000 seats.

 

[radio frequency]

I like how he wrote the article as though he was interviewing himself. LOL.

 

[BMBiology]

I love how dean Ronald Jordan discussed about how he's training the future pharmacists but yet, he's not even a license pharmacist in California. So dean, when was the last time you actually practiced pharmacy?

http://www2.dca.ca.gov/pls/wllpub/wllqryna$lcev2.startup?p_qte_code=RPH&p_qte_pgm_code=7200

I wonder what other deans are not currently license to practice where the school resides.

 

[Gombrich12]

What do you say to pharmacists who complain that more pharmacy schools will lead to joblessness for many?
The shear demographic increases alone will ensure that drug distribution and management of those traditional functions will keep even the most ambivalent pharmacists in work.

We can call this the Ronald Jordan "even a slob can get a job" guarantee. Somehow I doubt he'll be saying the same thing in five years.

 

[BMBiology]

Dean Ronald Jordan may be right after all. There is a great need for pharmacists in Orange County. As a matter of fact, another pharmacy school is planning to open just miles away from Chapman University!

http://www.ketchum.edu/index.php/admissions/pharmacy

Yes, another pharmacy school in California. I don't even bother counting anymore.

 

[Trent Steele]

Dean Ronald Jordan may be right after all. There is a great need for pharmacists in Orange County. As a matter of fact, another pharmacy school is planning to open just miles away from Chapman University!

http://www.ketchum.edu/index.php/admissions/pharmacy

Yes, another pharmacy school in California. I don't even bother counting anymore.

Baby boomers ruining another generation for their own gain. Color me not surprised.

 

[BMBiology]

I knew someone is funding this guy. You guess it.....CVS~!

"CVS Caremark Corp. has made a $2 million pledge to the University of Rhode Island in support of its College of Pharmacy......Ronald P. Jordan, dean of the College of Pharmacy said the gift by CVS Caremark is just another in a long line of commitments that enhance the college programs which have been made by the company."

http://www.uri.edu/news/releases/?id=5000

Does it get better than this? LOL

 

[PharFromNormal]

I knew someone is funding this guy. You guess it.....CVS~!

"CVS Caremark Corp. has made a $2 million pledge to the University of Rhode Island in support of its College of Pharmacy......Ronald P. Jordan, dean of the College of Pharmacy said the gift by CVS Caremark is just another in a long line of commitments that enhance the college programs which have been made by the company."

http://www.uri.edu/news/releases/?id=5000

Does it get better than this? LOL

In other news: Tom Ryan (the CEO of CVS at the time of donation) went to URI school of pharmacy and has also personally donated several million to URI - not just to the college of pharmacy. Benevolence or illuminati?!

Ron Jordan is also often considered one of the founding fathers of MTM.

Red pill anyone?

 

[BMBiology]

Let's be honest here. He and other deans have done great harm to this profession by selling a pipe dream. Many lives will be forever changed because of them. Why should they care? They still make bank regardless if you find a job or not.

By saturating the job market, students who be in the position to make a change are avoiding this profession like the plague. How is this good for the profession?

 

[shutterfly]

In other news: Tom Ryan (the CEO of CVS at the time of donation) went to URI school of pharmacy and has also personally donated several million to URI - not just to the college of pharmacy. Benevolence or illuminati?!

Ron Jordan is also often considered one of the founding fathers of MTM.

Red pill anyone?

Wait?! Are you saying big chains and Pharmacy schools are in cahoots? I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS WOULD HAPPEN?!

 

[BMBiology]

"During his tenure at URI, enrollment in the pharmacy program increased 45 percent."

He didn't think that's enough. He became a founding dean so he can graduate more pharmacists!

 

[PharFromNormal]

Wait?! Are you saying big chains and Pharmacy schools are in cahoots? I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS WOULD HAPPEN?!

This or the uber wealthy actually give back to the school where they graduated.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

In other news: Tom Ryan (the CEO of CVS at the time of donation) went to URI school of pharmacy and has also personally donated several million to URI - not just to the college of pharmacy. Benevolence or illuminati?!

Ron Jordan is also often considered one of the founding fathers of MTM.

Red pill anyone?

I would like a blue pill to go, with a large 2 Liter of MTM Kool Aid please. If it pleases the faculty and staff, I'll take a large order of natural fertilizer, or whatever it is that these people are inhaling to screw up their brain cells while giggling and playing Tickle me Elmo.

 

[shutterfly]

look at you switching into dentistry and all.

 

[rxglasshalffull]

my parents live in orange county. the reason that im not there is because there is virtually no openings there. thats why i live 75 miles away from them, which is fine i like my city. the point is, if anybody knows the market in california well, the OC is one of the MOST if no the most saturated areas in the freaking country. do you know how many pharmacists are in the OC? or want to live there??! ridiculous, another school? these stupid private schools. im glad UCI is not stupid enough to open a pharmacy school too

 

[rxglasshalffull]

or whatever, i cant worry about it. im just looking forward to my tax return

 

[confettiflyer]

UCI is not stupid enough to open a pharmacy school too

No they opened a law school, hahaha.


But actually last laugh is their's because it's on track to being one of the best law schools around and their entire first class got fees (tuition) waived.

If UCI opened a pharmacy school it would automatically decimate the job opportunities and rotation slots of every other pharmacy school in so-cal that's not USC or UCSD.


Ah I miss Orange County...retail and hospital, that's probably the hardest market to crack in all of pharmacy-dom.

Were you 714 or 949?

 

[SClENCE]

The only person that would ever pay 72k a year to go into pharmacy school is a student that has been denied everywhere else.

So essentially, if you are not smart/slacked in school you can just buy your way into the profession.

So yes, saturation will occur, but I'm assuming there will be a lot of "idiot" new grads that I will easily out compete for a job position. Plus, it will probably take awhile before saturation DOES occur considering that most of the schools have only graduated a few classes if any at all.

That being said, I'm not denying the fact that the job market is not what it once was... especially with many experienced pharmacists at big retail chains looking for new jobs due to working conditions.

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

look at you switching into dentistry and all.

One less applicant coming for your job!

 

[Jibby321]

One less applicant coming for your job!

My grandpa is a dentist. That's a **** show job market too. Luckily he has been practicing since the fifties and "the golden ages are past" as he said.

 

[rxglasshalffull]

my parents live in orange county. the reason that im not there is because there is virtually no openings there. thats why i live 75 miles away from them, which is fine i like my city. the point is, if anybody knows the market in california well, the OC is one of the MOST if no the most saturated areas in the freaking country. do you know how many pharmacists are in the OC? or want to live there??! ridiculous, another school? these stupid private schools. im glad UCI is not stupid enough to open a pharmacy school too

f

No they opened a law school, hahaha.


But actually last laugh is their's because it's on track to being one of the best law schools around and their entire first class got fees (tuition) waived.

If UCI opened a pharmacy school it would automatically decimate the job opportunities and rotation slots of every other pharmacy school in so-cal that's not USC or UCSD.


Ah I miss Orange County...retail and hospital, that's probably the hardest market to crack in all of pharmacy-dom.

Were you 714 or 949?

bordering Tustin Ranch and Irvine

 

[shutterfly]

One less applicant coming for your job!

Thats great!!!! Oh wait ACCP accredited like 5 schools right at this moment #whydidiworksohard #FML #rurallifeforever

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

Thats great!!!! Oh wait ACCP accredited like 5 schools right at this moment #whydidiworksohard #FML #rurallifeforever

You're safe in #rurallife, I don't anticipate the diploma mill students being adaptable enough to move out of their cushy metropolitan area.

 

[Jibby321]

Rural life>>>>metro. Don't have to deal with all the yuppies.

 

[BMBiology]

Here is a challenge to Dean Jordan: require all faculty including himself to earn 50% of their salary and benefit from actual paid pharmacist work. They can't volunteer at some small clinic that doesn't pay them. Part of their salary and benefit must come from paid work...billable work. They can't solely depend on students' tuition. Sounds fair right?

 

[WVUPharm2007]

Rural life>>>>metro. Don't have to deal with all the yuppies.

This isn't true. I went home last year and I saw Hipsters. In Parkersburg, WV. I know WV is 10 years behind the times, but it still shocked me.

 

[PharFromNormal]

Here is a challenge to Dean Jordan: require all faculty including himself to earn 50% of their salary and benefit from actual paid pharmacist work. They can't volunteer at some small clinic that doesn't pay them. Part of their salary and benefit must come from paid work...billable work. They can't solely depend on students' tuition. Sounds fair right?

Easily bypassed. School donates money to small clinic. Small clinic pays them. Anything is billable if you have someone willing to pay.

 

[Jibby321]

This isn't true. I went home last year and I saw Hipsters. In Parkersburg, WV. I know WV is 10 years behind the times, but it still shocked me.

Uh oh

 

[BMBiology]

-

 

[BMBiology]

Easily bypassed. School donates money to small clinic. Small clinic pays them. Anything is billable if you have someone willing to pay.

That is the dark secret pharmacy schools won't tell their students. Most of their faculty can't bill for their clinical services. They are just mere volunteers and their salary mainly depends on the students' tuition. Can you imagine a physician, a dentist faculty not being able to bill for their work?

So next time when they talk about their little clinics, ask them if they are getting paid. Ask them if what they are doing is billable. Ask them if Medicare, Blue Cross, UnitedHealth are reimbursing them for their clinical services. If they do not, then these schools are training their students for a job that doesn't exist. Only in academia where you can work for free and still get paid (from students' tuition).

 

[PharFromNormal]

That is the dark secret pharmacy schools won't tell their students. Most of their faculty can't bill for their clinical services. They are just mere volunteers and their salary mainly depends on the students' tuition. Can you imagine a physician, a dentist faculty not being able to bill for their work?

So next time when they talk about their little clinics, ask them if they are getting paid. Ask them if what they are doing is billable. Ask them if Medicare, Blue Cross, UnitedHealth are reimbursing them for their clinical services. If they do not, then these schools are training their students for a job that doesn't exist. Only in academia where you can work for free and still get paid (from students' tuition).

The question you should ask them is HOW they are getting paid not IF. Trace the money in the value chain. Things become very clear very quick. "I don't know" is not an acceptable response. If the things these small clinics do were justified independently, you'd be stupid to think the chains wouldn't do them.

 

[68quebec]

$72,000 per year?? is it including housing and everything?? other than that, whoever goes there are idiots (yes, seriously).

 

[PharmDCandidate2014]

$72,000 per year?? is it including housing and everything?? other than that, whoever goes there are idiots (yes, seriously).

It includes an Apple iPad.

 

[Baller MD]

$72,000 per year?? is it including housing and everything?? other than that, whoever goes there are idiots (yes, seriously).

Were you a pharmacy student too?

 

[Dred Pirate]

That is the dark secret pharmacy schools won't tell their students. Most of their faculty can't bill for their clinical services. They are just mere volunteers and their salary mainly depends on the students' tuition. Can you imagine a physician, a dentist faculty not being able to bill for their work?

So next time when they talk about their little clinics, ask them if they are getting paid. Ask them if what they are doing is billable. Ask them if Medicare, Blue Cross, UnitedHealth are reimbursing them for their clinical services. If they do not, then these schools are training their students for a job that doesn't exist. Only in academia where you can work for free and still get paid (from students' tuition).

this is how a lot of shared faculty work. They take 3 students a month - those students pay $2000 in tuition per month - that is $6000 that the school keeps in house, that more than pays for the faculty member.

 

[MountainPharmD]

It includes an Apple iPad.

I'm in! Where do I sign up?

 

[BidingMyTime]

Perfect schedule

If we're right about job prospects being dim in the near future I feel the problem will correct itself within a decade. Despite all the complaining people do now the job market isn't that bad, if it really turns sour I can't imagine the uproar from people.

Like it did for lawyers? I know a lawyer who just graduated and is working as a clerk at a local shop. Sadly, her story is the majority for new lawyers.

Baby boomers ruining another generation for their own gain. Color me not surprised.

I hate to color a whole generation, but as a group, baby boomers had the most, and yet did the least. And everyone after them will pay dearly for that for decades to come.

 

[Gombrich12]

Like it did for lawyers? I know a lawyer who just graduated and is working as a clerk at a local shop. Sadly, her story is the majority for new lawyers.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/12/17/law-school-enrollment-falls-to-lowest-level-since-1987/
The 37,924 full- and part-time students who started classes in 2014 represent a 30 percent decline from just four years ago, when enrollment peaked at 52,488.

It took awhile but students got the message that going into law was a bad idea. Now that schools are closing and merging it will hopefully help relieve some of the pressure on local job markets.

 

[BidingMyTime]

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/12/17/law-school-enrollment-falls-to-lowest-level-since-1987/
The 37,924 full- and part-time students who started classes in 2014 represent a 30 percent decline from just four years ago, when enrollment peaked at 52,488.

It took awhile but students got the message that going into law was a bad idea. Now that schools are closing and merging it will hopefully help relieve some of the pressure on local job markets.

Wow! That is good to know, it will probably still take 30 years to correct the oversupply, but I'm heartened to know that people are starting to figure out that law school usually equals a bad investment.

 

[BMBiology]

This dean talks a good game like he is training the next generation of clinical pharmacists but yet, their admission standards are pretty low. "Preferred" standards, not even required:

3. Preferred applicants have overall GPA and a prerequisite GPA of 3.0 or greater

4. Preferred applicants have a PCAT composite score of 50 or higher.

http://www.chapman.edu/pharmacy/admission/index.aspx

This school is also so desperate that it is planning to continue to accept students right before it open its door in July.

"However, applications may be accepted on a case by case basis between March 3rd and June 1st 2015."