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Top 25 radiology program list from auntminnie.com

Discussion in 'Radiology' started by p53, Aug 27, 2009.

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  1. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    SDN Members don't see this ad. (About Ads)
    Here is the highly acclaimed top 25 radiology program list by academic radiologists that was posted on Auntminnie.com.

    Here is the list I compiled based on conversations at RSNA and ARRS with over 20 university radiologists. Radiology residency rankings do not correlate with medical school reputation. You may give this list to any senior radiology attending and they will agree with this assessment with possible minor adjustments.

    1. MGH
    1. UCSF
    1. PENN
    1. MIR
    5. Johns Hopkins
    6. Duke
    6. Michigan
    6. BWH
    9. Stanford
    10. NYU
    11. Mayo Clinic-Rochester
    11. Wake Forest
    13. UCLA
    13. Univ. Washington
    13. Univ. Virginia
    13. Univ. Pittsburgh
    13. BID
    18. UCSD
    18. Thomas Jefferson
    20. Indiana
    20. North Carolina
    20. UTSW
    23. Wisconsin
    23. UAB
    23. Cleveland Clinic

    Honorable Mention: Northwestern, Cornell, Iowa, Florida-Gainesville, Vanderbilt, Cornell, Emory, South Carolina, Oregon Health, Maryland, Baylor-Houston, Utah, Arkansas, Baylor-Dallas, UT-Houston, William Beaumont, Henry Ford, Medical College of Wisconsin, Albert Einstein, Santa Clara Valley, New Mexico, Virginia Mason, Scott and White, Brown
  2. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    Here are the top 5 programs in each region.

    East Coast
    1. MGH
    1. Penn
    3. Johns Hopkins
    4. BWH
    5. NYU

    West Coast
    1. UCSF
    2. Stanford
    3. UCLA
    3. Washington
    5. UCSD

    Midwest
    1. MIR
    2. Michigan
    3. Mayo
    4. Pittsburgh
    5. Indiana

    South
    1. Duke
    2. Wake Forest
    3. Virginia
    4. North Carolina
    4. UTSW
  3. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    To read active discussions on this list, you must go to www.auntminnie.com register for an account and then go to forums under medical students.

    Auntminnie.com is the most renown radiology message board in the business. It is broken down to medical students, residents, fellows, and active.

    CRITICS agree this is the most accurate list of the best radiology residency programs that has ever been posted.

    Good luck with the application process.


    Keep in mind the best residency programs sets you up the best for the best fellowships i.e MSK or Neuro and the best private practice jobs in the country.

    AIM HIGH DURING THIS APPLICATION PROCESS.
  4. igottaquestion

    igottaquestion

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    Your critics have actually stated the opposite.


    Tiers? Maybe (maybe). Numerical ranking? Gimme a break . . . certainly not worth enough attention that I would personally spend 4 unhappy years in Baltimore, Cleveland, etc. stroking the ego.
  5. digitlnoize

    digitlnoize Rock God

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    Ranking are, for the most part, silly. The choice of program is, for most people, a much more personal choice than just, "It's MGH, so it's #1!"

    I, for example, hate large cities, and I have a family on top of that. When it comes time for me to formulate my rankings, I'm going to put places in smaller cities with good schools, good/safe communities, and a good cost of living above pretty much ALL of the spots listed above.

    About the only ones on my radar right now from that list are Wake, UVA, Gainesville...you get the idea. So, for people to run around publishing these "best programs" lists...it's really just silly. Those may have been the best programs for them, but they're certainly not my faves. I wouldn't touch MGH or Hopkins with a 10 foot pole. Have you been to that part of Baltimore? I have. No thank you.
  6. DrRads101

    DrRads101 Senior Member

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    "I talked to over 20 university radiologists."

    LOL. Is this a serious thread?

    Well, I talked to 40, and they say your list is bogus. I've been reading Auntminnie for a while and I think you were the only one who believed your own made-up list, go figure. EVERYONE else thought it was bogus. It's unfortunate you had to spam this board with your own anecdotal "survey" which in the end is meaningless because there ARE no rankings. I live in Chicago and go to RSNA every year and my survey looks quite different than yours. Heck, I work with over 20 university radiologists every day. What does that say? It says what we all know--that there are no rankings. I would recommend the mods to lock this thread as it is just going to confuse young applicants.

    To say your made-up rank list (by serving a whole 20 radiologists, wow!) is "highly acclaimed" and trying to pass it off as somehow official is just evil IMO. To say this list is from Auntminnie.com is a lie, it is from a poster by the name of "p53" who posted a thread in their subforums. In other words, it is from you. And to give young applicants the impression that Radiology fellowships are very competitive (they are not) only adds to how ridiculous this is.
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2009
  7. Labslave

    Labslave Senior Member

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    I really just can't get over how much of a tool you are. I understand that you (might) mean well, but jesus man. Give it up already.
  8. Dr Ymous

    Dr Ymous

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    just throwin this out there, but I take it you're not at one of those schools. so you're upset about someone posting rankings. i've seen posts claiming they are fairly accurate. of course no "authority" has backed it up.

    anyways, you all are a bunch of whiners. judging by other posts you all enjoy flapping your gums (or just typing in this case). well, shallow waters do tend to be loud and turbulent.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  9. DrRads101

    DrRads101 Senior Member

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    Actually I am at a place on that list right in the middle. So what. Way to single out and judge everyone though. This is exactly what the problem became on Auntminnie and why the community would be better served without one guy's anecdotal "rank list," because if one dealt with the intrinsic fact that there are no rankings at all, you were told by p53 that you must just be "jealous." What are we teenage girls? And if you supported it, you were simply "p53 posting under a different user." Oddly enough the only supporters seemed to be people that just joined and had one post defending p53. Kind of like you. Hi p53. How are you?

    Either way on Auntminnie as you tried to shove your anecdotal list down everyone's throat and maybe only one or two bought it, things just went down the tubes and it became you versus the world, so I guess you moved it here, so I'd like to save that from happening. I mean I could post my own list after being in residency a couple years and doing my own surveys (it's certainly been more than 20 radiologists). So which list would be the more official one? You see the problem? And what are we talking about here, it's Radiology for pete's sake. You think the images are much more interesting and higher quality and the chairs are much more comfortable at Wake Forest than at Cleveland Clinic? I mean let's get back to reality here. This isn't neurosurg.

    But the real reason I responded was that spamming this garbage that has been debunked on Auntminnie and trying to portray it as "Auntminnie's rankings," and that it is "highly acclaimed," and that fellowships are "very competitive" (they are not) so you need to be on that list to get a good one (not even close), is just all a downright lie and young applicants deserve to know that.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  10. Labslave

    Labslave Senior Member

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    :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:
  11. TheFlash

    TheFlash Playtime Is Over

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    I agree that p53 is an odd, highly immodest individual.

    Still, I would be remiss to not argue that his list has at least some mileage. According to last year's "Minnies" (Auntminnie.com's yearly awards list), these were the candidates for best program:

    Best Radiologist Training Program
    Brigham and Women's Hospital, Boston, MA
    Duke University, Durham, NC
    Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD
    Mallinckrodt Institute of Radiology, St. Louis, MO
    Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston, MA
    Mayo Clinic, Rochester, MN
    Stanford University, Stanford, CA
    Thomas Jefferson University, Philadelphia, PA
    University of California, San Diego, San Diego, CA
    University of California, San Francisco, San Francisco, CA
    University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA
    University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia, PA
    University of Virginia, Charlottesville, VA
    University of Washington, Seattle, WA
    Wake Forest University, Winston-Salem, NC

    Check out the link here:
    http://www.auntminnie.com/index.asp?Sec=nws&sub=rad&pag=dis&ItemId=82381

    If that list looks familiar, it's because it's essentially a re-hashing of the top 15 or so programs on p53's list. Additionally, it's the same few programs year after year that are featured on the Minnies. I do agree that's it difficult to "rank" programs quantitatively, and these Auntminnie.com Minnie Awards are largely based on reputation and legacy. However, the top 5 programs on p53's list are also the top 5 in NIH funds for radiolgy research as well.

    Generally, I would say that rankings are fuzzy. Regionality should take precedence, and program "feel and fit" should be the most important thing in choosing a program, not some vague ranking system. I would say rankings are mostly useful for figuring out overall tiers, not exact numerical placement of a program.
  12. DrFraud

    DrFraud

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    sounds alot like P53.....
  13. DOCTORSAIB

    DOCTORSAIB Ophtho or bust!

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    You should have seen p53 in the days of Step 1 and BigFrank. He's actually nicer now. :laugh:

    Despite his unique ways, I do give him credit for excellent Step 1 advice back in the days!
  14. OHMAN0125

    OHMAN0125 Poor Member

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    Way to stress everyone out during application season P53. :rolleyes:
  15. starbuk

    starbuk

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    Whatever happened to Bigfrank and what specialty did he go into.

    I remember reading his posts back in the day
  16. DOCTORSAIB

    DOCTORSAIB Ophtho or bust!

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    If memory serves me correctly he went into radiology as well.

    Haven't seen him post in a while. Must be moving on to bigger and better things. Although what could be better than SDN! :D (Sermo.com is not bad, actually. Just joined recently).
  17. Long Dong

    Long Dong My middle name is Duc.

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    Yeah the p53 vs bigfrank threads were a major source of LOLz.
  18. Zweihander

    Zweihander Billygoat Gruff

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    Choosing a radiology program because of rankings is just stupid. There is literally no reason to do so. Go to a program you like and where you can see yourself working with that particular group of attendings and residents for several years. The end.
  19. Labslave

    Labslave Senior Member

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  20. meister

    meister Senior Member

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    bbbut what about SDN cred??
  21. Rzarecta

    Rzarecta Premed 2: Electric Bugalo

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    I like this.
  22. Zweihander

    Zweihander Billygoat Gruff

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    I think most radiologists are too busy having awesome careers to worry too terribly much about what some anonymous internet weirdos think. :laugh:
  23. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    Fed up with med students and residents that dont know crap. Where one does training makess a big difference. For example would you rather learn neuroradiology that also covers msk because he has done msk as a resident. middle tiers and lower tier programs do not have true subspecialists to teach you subspecialty reads. also some programs have ir rotations without a dedicated outpatient clinic. this means that program is severely lacks in solid ir training. also some programs do not have research opprtunities to one day lead to a budding academic career.


    bottomline i will stand by my list. it does make a difference where you go because you will be judged bfellowship programs and future jobs by your residencies. i know some private practice jobs in awesome locations that will not hire unless you have mallinchrodt ucsf hopkins or harvard for residency.
  24. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    Great radiology residencies open doors for your furure either tough fellowships or highly sought after private practice jobs in highly desirable locations. MSK OR NEURO fellowships at Hopkins UCSF or Harvard would be nearly impossible without a top radio.ogy residency.
  25. OnlyLiveOnce

    OnlyLiveOnce Pursuer of Happiness

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    I spoke to a 4th year, at the end of last semester, who had just matched into Duke Radiology. I was asking him if its true that you need a competitive residency in order to get fellowships. He said that's NOT true for Radiology. It may be for medicine, but not rads. He told me he's heard of people who did their radiology residencies at community programs and then got fellowships at MGH. Such people may not be the norm, but it contradicts what you're saying.

    Before that I asked a panel of radiology residents how important the "name" of your residency and fellowship is in the world of private practice. The basic gist is: residency prestige doesn't matter, and even fellowship prestige doesn't really matter. What matters are your evaluations, how easily you get along with people, and also how you perform when a given radiology practice hires you on a trial basis in order to evaluate your performance.

    So I disagree with the notion that people who don't get into top programs will have substantial disadvantages in their careers.
  26. Man In White

    Man In White Cervical Warden

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    Eh, I don't have any hard evidence and I haven't asked any radiology residents or radiologists, but it seems to me that name/prestige matters for EVERYTHING in this world - literally, not just academia (although especially academia). So I can't imagine that rads fellowships are somehow immune to this phenomenon.

    There are bound to be exceptions - there always are, but I have a hard time believing that for 2 candidates all else being equal that selection committees will not take name/prestige into context. Maybe not to the extent of med school or residency apps, but the bias is likely still there nonetheless. How significant is it? Well, no one can say, but if it were me I wouldn't lose too much sleep deciding between a 'name' school and Podunk to do my residency if I were so fortunate to have that choice.
  27. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    ONCE AGAIN I AM SICK AND TIRED OF IGNORANT MEDICAL STUDENTS POSTING MEANINGLESS COMMENTS.

    One more time.

    The most competitive fellowships in radiology are Muscularskeletal and Neuroradiology fellowships. These two fellowships are like Dermatology and Plastic Surgery of residency.

    YOU WILL NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO MATCH INTO MSK OR NEURORADIOLOGY AT MGH, HOPKINS, UCSF, PENN without going to a top radiology program.

    HOW TOUGH IS THAT TO UNDERSTAND?

    Furthermore, the most sought after private practice jobs in Hawaii, San Diego, Aspen, Austin, and Miami etc want to brag that they have a Mallinckrodt, Hopkins, Harvard, Duke, or UCSF guy.

    THE BEST PRIVATE PRACTICE JOBS ARE PICKY BECAUSE THEY CAN BE.

    Brand name is VERY, VERY important if you want a highly selective fellowship or a coveted private practice job.

    NOW IF YOU REALLY WANT TO DO MAMMOGRAPHY (WHICH NO ONE IN RADIOLOGY WANTS TO DO) you can go to Long Island U and still go to Harvard for fellowship.

    ONCE AGAIN FOR THE VERBALLY CHALLENGED.

    EVERYONE GUNS FOR MSK AND NEURO FELLOWSHIPS IN RADIOLOGY RESIDENCY THEREFORE IF YOU WANT TO MATCH INTO THESE FELLOWSHIPS AT THE TOP PLACES, YOUR RESIDENCY MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

    DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE EXPLANATION?

  28. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    HERE IS A SECRET.

    When you go to a program to interview for a radiology residency spot. DON'T ASK WHERE THE RESIDENTS ARE GOING FOR FELLOWSHIP.

    Instead ask what subspecialty are the residents going into for fellowship. Then ask where they are going for MSK and NEURO.

    DO NOT BE IMPRESSED IF JOE SCHMUCK SAYS I'M GOING TO DUKE FOR FELLOWSHIP. ASK INSTEAD WHAT FELLOWSHIP?
  29. Labslave

    Labslave Senior Member

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    Then why don't you crawl back into your douche bag and leave everyone else alone? Because you're on a self-righteous crusade against ignorance? Please...
  30. synapse lapse

    synapse lapse tokyo robotic Bronze Donor

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    First, what the hell is with all this yelling? It is childish and unnecessary. Second, here are the match data for fellowships from NRMP:

    http://www.nrmp.org/data/resultsanddatasms2009.pdf

    as you can see both MSK and Neurorads have unfilled positions every year. Also, while obviously program name/"rank", whatever that means, will undoubtedly play some roll, you make it sound like people can't get in to competitive fellowships or jobs if they don't go to one of these schools. Consider 2 schools that were nice enough to offer me interviews this year - Tennessee Memphis and Kansas Wichita - both perfectly fine radiology programs (hey, good enough for me!) but obviously not deserving of p53's "top 25". Yet recent grads from these 2 programs in the last 4 years have gone into Neurorads at Malinckrodt x3, UVA, Baylor, Portland x2, etc and MSK at MUSC, Wake Forest, Duke, Emory etc. The point is yes prestige/"rank" is going to have some effect, but not enough that anyone should sacrifice a place they are happy at for a name. It is obvious that for anyone looking toward private practice it is a minor issue at best, and probably only matters if you desire a high powered academic life. Please stop yelling at dumb "medical students" like none of us know anything. I may not be a resident yet, nor do I have your clinical training, but I know enough not to be so arrogant when trying to "help" people - and also to look for non-anecdotal data when evaluating my choices.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2009
  31. Labslave

    Labslave Senior Member

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    It is definitely true that some fellowships are harder to obtain than others. That being said, it's important to understand that the places you're talking about are specifically trying to recruit and produce future academic radiologists. Not only will they take into account your academic pedigree, but more importantly they will be considering your research accomplishments along with a million and one other things (such as how well-liked you are by your future colleagues as evidenced by your evaluations, LORs, etc.).

    Will "higher power" residencies provide more research opportunities such that you'll be in good shape for these more competitive programs? Sure. If that's what you want. It's silly to assume that everyone would want to take this path.

    Will "higher power" residencies have bigger names to get LORs from, and will these carry more weight? Sure.

    Then overall, would it be easier to get into hyper-competitive fellowship positions in desirable locations? Probably.

    Will many "not-so-high-power-but-still-respectable-academic" residencies still provide you with the opportunity to train at a terrific fellowship? Yes. There are too many examples to argue with this.

    Are you still a tool? Absolutely.

    So how about you recommend that instead of just asking "Joe Schmuck" what kind of fellowship he has successfully matched into, you also ask him what he did to get there, because I bet he doesn't choose to say, "I went to XYZ for residency just like p53" first. I'm pretty sure those pesky little things called "publications" probably matter a little more.
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2009
  32. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    Medical students are SOOOO cute...they are giving information about radiology fellowships and they are not even in residency. HAHAHAHA...

    Once again the most competitive MSK and NEURO fellowships are the brand names such as UCSF, MGH, HOPKINS, and PENN.

    I'll put it this way. It is tougher to match along the coasts then it is in the Midwest. For example, it is much tougher to match at NYU, UCSD, Cornell, Columbia compared to MIR/WASH U for residency because of DESIRABLE LOCATION.

    MEDICAL STUDENTS. Please stick to stuff you know about before you have a verbal diarrhea.

    MSK and NEURO fellowships are tough (but the bottom of the barrel is easy). Most of the top programs take residents from within their program. Therefore, if you know you want to do MSK or NEURO I would try to match at a residency at that place. If you want to do MSK, I would try to match at UCSD or DUKE (rather than WashU, PENN even these two programs are better) etc so you can try to work with Dr. Resnick or Dr. Helms for example. If you want to do Neuro, I would try to match at Hopkins etc.

    NOTICE A TREND HERE? THE TOP RADIOLOGISTS AT EACH SUBSPECIALTY TEND TO BE AT THE BIG NAME PLACES. POINT BLANK, IT MATTERS WHERE YOU GO TO RESIDENCY BECAUSE IT CAN OPEN DOORS.

    With that said, no one wants to do a fellowship in MSK at small places such as South Alabam because their MSK attendings are not stars in the field and half of the time you will be staffed by MSK attendings that don't even have formal MSK training.

    Lastly, top fellowships are based more on who you know rather than research. For example, if you do a UCSD radiology residency and Dr. Resnick likes you, he will call the fellowship program director at the place you want to go and it will be a done deal. IT IS WHO YOU KNOW NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW.

    NOW FOR THE FINAL TIME TO THE MEDICAL STUDENTS. PLEASE DON'T OFFER ADVICE ABOUT FELLOWSHIPS BECAUSE YOU HAVE ZERO CREDIBILITY. :laugh:
  33. DrRads101

    DrRads101 Senior Member

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    I am wondering if you are even a Radiology resident. As anyone who has been on the interview trail across the country, and as any Radiology resident knows, fellowships in Radiology are not competitive at all, even at the big names. I don't know about other people in this thread but it looks like there are a lot of Radiology residents in here, including me.

    Either way I'd love to see these mystical private practices that only hire residents from Harvard and Hopkins, LOL. I've seen QUITE the opposite--private practices prefer local applicants, no matter where that is. I am starting the job hunt right now. Times are tough but there are still a lot of good jobs out there.

    You are like that guy in your avatar. Just star struck with names and living in a Hollywood fantasy, no offense. I wouldn't be surprised if you are literally living in Hollywood. Typing in all caps and making fun of everyone, which are all people that you don't know at all by the way, doesn't really help your case.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2009
  34. DrRads101

    DrRads101 Senior Member

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    My buddy at Illinois Masonic is now at Harvard Neuro. I know someone else at St. Francis who is at UCSF and two from there are at Michigan. Matching in Radiology is difficult as any resident will tell you, but any knowledgable resident will also tell you that Radiology **fellowships** are just simply not competitive and **private practice** emphasizes almost 100% local applicants that they can trust. So yes you are correct. Don't listen to this guy. It is obvious he has some serious issues with splitting.
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2009
  35. OnlyLiveOnce

    OnlyLiveOnce Pursuer of Happiness

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    :thumbup: Good to hear info that reinforces the info I had.
  36. OnlyLiveOnce

    OnlyLiveOnce Pursuer of Happiness

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    Another point I want to make: I mentioned that this person matched into Duke Radiology for a reason. Headed to Duke for residency, he could've easily put on a pompous act like "oh yeah, residency 'ranking' is key for top fellowships and a successful career". But even someone like him, headed to one of the top radiology residencies in the nation, admitted that its not so key.

    He admitted 2 key points:
    1) you don't need a top residency in order to land competitive fellowships (e.g. the example from him I quoted above)
    2) on his own, he went as far as to say that he didn't even expect the prestige of his residency to give him any major advantage once he gets into private practice.

    Someone had to ask "well then what's the point of working so hard to get into a top radiology residency?" to which he answered "Well, I'll be learning from the MAN in musculoskeletal radiology (i.e. at Duke)."

    So yeah, I'm sure it's an honor to be able to learn from the top world-renowned faculty during your residency, but that's a far cry from the huge implications that p53 is suggesting your residency "prestige" holds for you.
  37. MrBurns10

    MrBurns10 Excellent, Smithers Moderator Emeritus

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    Piece of advice: If you want us lowly medical students to take you seriously and believe you're the all-knowing resident you claim to be, you can at least know the actual names of the radiology subspecialties. This wasn't a typo either...I've seen you make it in other posts.


    "RESIDENTS" ARE SOOOO CUTE.
  38. synapse lapse

    synapse lapse tokyo robotic Bronze Donor

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    Right, because it's not like I posted solid data or anything :rolleyes: And I am sure you are right, the only residents with any future according to p53 are the 150 that get into these "top programs". The rest of us will be slumming it in the ghetto with our crappy American medical degrees and radiology residencies. I swear you are one of the most effective trolls I have ever met, your delusions are hilarious...
  39. OptimallyPrime

    OptimallyPrime Junior Member

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    Hate to invade this p53 beat-down session with a little support for the guy, however the fact that fellowships aren't "competitive" now does not mean that they won't be later.

    As it stands, many radiology 4th year residents get board-certified their final year and then head off into private practices as "general radiologists." I'm not saying this is the norm (most residents do fellowships) but a significant portion do not, especially in the midwest. The entering class of 2010 will have a new board-certification system that will involve a final board cert 15 months after residency. This is essentially designed to push residents into fellowships and kill off the idea of the general radiologist. It will be a specialized exam designed for those who have targeted training in a few key areas of their choosing.

    So what's going to happen when all those general radiologists-to-be apply for fellowship from the entering class of 2010? Things are going to get more competitive. How much more so? I can't be too sure. But they almost certainly will unless there's a mass expansion in fellowship spots. That's not bound to happen given that some fellowships go unfilled as it stands now.
  40. DrRads101

    DrRads101 Senior Member

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    I respectfully disagree and in fact I see quite the opposite. Many of our residents are already talking about not doing fellowships now that our last year essentially becomes one under the new system, whereas last year these same people were talking about doing a fellowship to become more specialized simply because it seemed to be "the thing to do." What the new system has done is essentially make the last year of Radiology residency a "fellowship year" in some sense. I know people that are doing just Neuro their last year now with the new system. I will probably be doing just IR.
  41. Taurus

    Taurus Paul Revere of Medicine

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    Everyone seems to have an opinion on this. I think that the change will mean that more people will pursue fellowships to be in academic centers until they can take their boards. I know that the PD at UPMC thinks that the change will mean fewer people going into fellowships. I plan to do a fellowship so I hope the latter comes true.
  42. OnlyLiveOnce

    OnlyLiveOnce Pursuer of Happiness

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    Why does the PD think that having boards 15 months after residency will make fewer people want to do fellowships until then?
  43. DrRads101

    DrRads101 Senior Member

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    Prob because the core competencies boards have been moved forward one year to the PGY-4 year and now the PGY-5 year has become almost exclusively a specialty/elective year.
  44. Amxcvbcv

    Amxcvbcv Radiologist

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  45. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    We can all make blanket generalizations to fulfill our reason for not matching at a top radiology program. Whatever you need to rationalize to make sure you feel better.

    Bottomline, it doesn't hurt you to match at a top program (and can only help you). Wouldn't your want to keep your options open and maximize your chances of future success. So why would you want to settle for less?

    In medicine, the key is to keep your options as open as long as you can. If you go to one of the top 25 programs you will meet attendings along the way that can help you match at a top fellowship.

    There are people that go to a middle of the road radiology program that did or did not have a choice to match at a higher caliber place (most people that have a choice choose to go to the best program on their ranklist BTW) that will refute my arguments. Good for them. One might need this mental crutch to feel better about one self.

    I stand by my assertion. Furthermore, I have an article from AJR ( a very prestigious academic publication in radiology) that shows that there is a positive correlation of a person's radiology program reputation and starting salary after residency. http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/178/5/1067

    Lastly, it is a fact that residents at the top programs have higher physics pass rate and oral exam pass rates.

    Sure you can be brilliant at a middle tier program but we constantly need competition and/or academic leaders to push us.

    It is like LeBron/Jordan playing basketball in a minor league basketball league. He would still be great but would not achieve his potential.

    A lot of radiology learning occurs at the workstation during the workday.

    Would you rather staff/learn/dictate studies with Richard Webb (that published the CT book that you have to know cold) or an abdominal imager that covers Chest because the program does not have true subspecialty radiologists?

    The choice is yours. Just don't BS people on here and say it DOESN'T make a difference where you go for residency. This is a cry by people that go to middle of the road programs that give advice to justify their choice.

    One more note, most of the top radiology programs have top fellowships. These top fellowships go inhouse (i.e. residents currently in the program). Once you move for residency, the last thing you would want to do is move somewhere for one year to complete a fellowship after 4 years of residency.

    WHERE YOU GO MAKES A DIFFERENCE BECAUSE IT KEEPS THE MOST DOORS OPEN. ANYONE THAT ARGUES THIS ARGUMENT BY SAYING THAT JOE SCHMOE FROM SOUTH ALABAMA GOT INTO DUKE IS A COMPLETE IDIOT. GOING TO THE TOP PROGRAMS MAKES IT MUCH EASIER TO MATCH AT A TOP FELLOWSHIP. THAT IS A FACT.
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2009
  46. MrBurns10

    MrBurns10 Excellent, Smithers Moderator Emeritus

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    Either you're trolling and hoping people don't read the article you linked (which I've read before) or you're unable to understand conclusions. The latter worries me more, as clearly you're in a prestigious radiology residency.

    Anyway, I'm not arguing against your assertion that the top radiology programs may help you. As someone who is interested in academics, I'm hoping to get into a reputable program. But it's not the end-all, be-all and I'm a firm believer that you can get anywhere from anywhere.
  47. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    Completely and utterly clueless.

    80-90% of radiology residents do fellowships. Plus with the current job market it will go higher.

    To go in academics one needs a fellowship, and private practices are predominantly megagroups now with subspecialists that become the "go to person".

    If you go into radiology today, just be prepared to do a fellowship. The new boards system will have little or no bearing on the amount of information that you have to master as a radiology resident. In fact one can argue that future radiology residents will know less since there will be less months in "core rotations". I'll put it this way, unless tort reform becomes a reality (with a democratic house, senate, and President there is a zero percent chance of this) you will do a fellowship to limit your liability.

    Speaking of which....why do fellowships?

    THREE REASONS MOST RADIOLOGY RESIDENTS DO FELLOWSHIPS.

    1. Amount of information that you have to master is insane. 4 years is not enough to be a very good radiologist. Sure you can set your goals to become an average radiologist BUT average radiologists get sued all of the time. By going into a fellowship, you decide to master the information in one discrete specialty.

    2. Marketing. Fellowships brand you as an expert in a subspecialty. Private practice jobs preferentially hire subspecialists these days. Plus, it is near impossible to be an academic radiologist without a fellowship.

    3. Mammography. No one wants to do these highly litigenous reads. You can have the eyes of the best mammographer in the world and you will still miss breast cancer because of the limitation of contrast. So you are literally hoping not to get sued.


    Medical students see radiology as a easy lifestyle field. In reality, next to radiation oncology it is the most mentally taxing specialty of them all. THERE IS A REASON RADIOLOGY RESIDENCY IS 4 YEARS AND 80% OF residents do fellowships. YOU HAVE TO KNOW A LOT!!

    Sometimes I laugh at the ER residents. They don't know crap. All they do is order a CT Head, CT Abdomen, and/or CT chest to bail them out. Plus, you can read very little as a ER resident and learn on the job by pattern recognition. If you don't read in radiology you will NOT survive.

    In fact, I can argue that radiology is tougher than surgery because mental stress trumps physical stress everytime.

    Radiology call vs Surgery call?

    Give me a break. As a radiology resident I work nonstop during call. Every call night is like taking USMLE Step 1. Every film is like a test question. Except you don't want to miss anything because if you do miss, the dumb ER resident will send the patient home, surgery resident will schedule an emergent surgery, or a stroke team will be called (the unit secretary can read a large middle cerebral artery stroke however most strokes are subtle i.e insular ribbon sign or minimal gray white differentiation in two images that can only be seen on a very narrow CT window).

    Surgery residents come into my reading room whenever they have a question about a case which means they have the time to walk down to the reading room. Stress? I've been on call as a surgery intern. Residents and interns have downtime at night. As a radiology resident on call you have ZERO downtime and every image is a decision point.

    Last edited: Oct 22, 2009
  48. OnlyLiveOnce

    OnlyLiveOnce Pursuer of Happiness

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    Exhibit A:

    Conclusion based on the above: "top ranked"/"big brand name" programs do a much better job of teaching and give you better training for the world of private practice.


    Now, Exhibit B: taken from http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=326379

    Conclusion based on the above: community programs do a much better job of teaching and give you better training for the world of private practice (while "top ranked"/"big brand name" programs gear you more towards the world of academics).


    :eyebrow:
  49. p53

    p53 ****** for F******

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    The bolded comments below were comments that I made when I was a medical student. Check out the year. Nice try. I'm flattered with the attention that you gave me :D

    Even I will admit that as a 3rd year medical student I was completely and utterly clueless. Notice a trend here on my comments. Medical students (even p53 when he was a medical student) don't know squat about radiology.

    Nice try digging up my posts from the past. While you are at it. Why don't you dig up my Step 1 advice that has been critically acclaimed as THE best advice on how to beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeach slap Step 1.




  50. OnlyLiveOnce

    OnlyLiveOnce Pursuer of Happiness

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    Don't be flattered; I had that thread bookmarked about a year ago and I happened to remember the comment you made. It's not like I decided to set out on a journey to do research on you.

    We're not talking about the Step I on this thread. As far as your Step I advice goes, sure, why not, I have no problem gathering advice from as many people as possible.

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