Touro College of Dental Medicine - New York

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The ADA is spineless. If it weren't Delta would not dictate reimbursements and Corporate Dentistry would get in trouble because they are not owned by denitsts, but by hedge fund managers. Delta and Aspen give $$$ to the ADA so new grads need to keep coming that will work for corporates and take PPO's.

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That's what I'm saying though. These new schools HAVE the research ("burden of proof") that suggests that there is a dentist shortage. Now, you and I both know that there is a disparity with over-saturation in cities and under-saturation in rural areas, but the research doesn't show the over-saturation in cities part. It stresses lack of care for the underserved. This is why ME, MN and other states are approving dental therapists. To address the shortage of access. As long as there is a lack of access in rural areas, the new dental schools will successfully win this argument. Is the ADA really willing to go out on a limb and deny that there is a shortage in rural areas?

It's a very dishonest argument, though isn't it (not you personally)? How many of these graduates are actually going to go into rural areas? People change their tune when they're six figures in the hole. Even with the potential for loan forgiveness, there is no guarantee that these schools will actually address the rural issue. It's at best a shotgun approach. If there's over saturation in big cities, why can't you create incentives for dentists chasing opportunities in big cities to move to more rural areas? Because it seems to me that the problem is not so much *number* of graduates as it is *allocation*. And I don't see what pumping out more DMDs does for allocation. I suppose the more urban areas over saturate, the more realistic many people will become and move elsewhere to open practices. But that is an extremely poor approach I think.

I think opening new schools should be the equivalent of nuclear war-an absolute last resort. If there aren't enough dentists in rural areas in say, MS, why don't they offer incentives like, I dunno-here's a very favorable interest rate on a small business loan, tax incentives, etc. TARGETED approaches instead of just opening new schools with mealy-mouthed missions and no guarantees of graduates doing anything.
 
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The ADA is spineless. If it weren't Delta would not dictate reimbursements and Corporate Dentistry would get in trouble because they are not owned by denitsts, but by hedge fund managers. Delta and Aspen give $$$ to the ADA so new grads need to keep coming that will work for corporates and take PPO's.

To be fair, there is a small, but strong and dedicated movement towards FFS. I've seen multiple dentists over on DT terminate plans with PPO and move towards FFS. You can even buy 100% FFS practices! Usually, they take PPO to build up patient base and to pay down practice loan...and then when they don't need PPO anymore or when the PPO patients respect them enough to stick with them despite being out-of-network, they drop the PPO. If I own a practice, I will 100% go this route.

It's a very dishonest argument, though isn't it (not you personally)? How many of these graduates are actually going to go into rural areas? People change their tune when they're six figures in the hole. Even with the potential for loan forgiveness, there is no guarantee that these schools will actually address the rural issue. It's at best a shotgun approach. If there's over saturation in big cities, why can't you create incentives for dentists chasing opportunities in big cities to move to more rural areas? Because it seems to me that the problem is not so much *number* of graduates as it is *allocation*. And I don't see what pumping out more DMDs does for allocation.

I agree- I'm not saying that the argument is ethical. It's unethical. I agree with you. This is why I think that NHSC scholarships and loan repayment ought to be significantly expanded. Send new grads out to rural areas for a year or two while helping them with their loans. This ensures a steady stream of new grads rotating through these areas, a solution to the access to care problem, and removes the need for more dental schools.

You said it correctly- the problem is allocation, not number. That's why we need to incentivize people to go rural. Unfortunately, the opportunities aren't great in many rural parts right now. Many residents of these areas have no insurance or are on Medicaid. So a private practice wouldn't be profitable for a dentist with heavy loans. Community health centers here are a good idea.
 
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Wow, I didn't know that ADA was taking money from these guys...

To be fair, there is a small, but strong and dedicated movement towards FFS. I've seen multiple dentists over on DT terminate plans with PPO and move towards FFS. You can even buy 100% FFS practices! Usually, they take PPO to build up patient base and to pay down practice loan...and then when they don't need PPO anymore or when the PPO patients respect them enough to stick with them despite being out-of-network, they drop the PPO. If I own a practice, I will 100% go this route.



I agree- I'm not saying that the argument is ethical. It's unethical. I agree with you. This is why I think that NHSC scholarships and loan repayment ought to be significantly expanded. Send new grads out to rural areas for a year or two while helping them with their loans. This ensures a steady stream of new grads rotating through these areas, a solution to the access to care problem, and removes the need for more dental schools.

You said it correctly- the problem is allocation, not number. That's why we need to incentivize people to go rural. Unfortunately, the opportunities aren't great in many rural parts right now. Many residents of these areas have no insurance or are on Medicaid. So a private practice wouldn't be profitable for a dentist with heavy loans. Community health centers here are a good idea.

I hope I'm being clear that I'm not attacking you-just responding to the arguments. If I haven't been clear on that, I'm sorry.

Yeah, which is why I think it's bad faith on the part of schools who want to open and apathy on the part of the ADA. I think your ideas are good too btw. Also, re Medicaid-I think the obvious answer is to increase reimbursements for it. I think if we're not careful that the profession could be destroyed-I'm not in it yet, but I've been in Medicaid offices and seen their ridiculous overbooking (by necessity). I think that could be the future of all dentists but a select few who are able to sustain FFS practices if there's an oversupply. Insurance reimbursements are already going down, and you increase the supply and instead of the increased supply adding to lobbying power, it'll be divide and conquer-they'll take whatever scraps they can get and all but FFS offices will be quadruple booked and have rushed work. This was explained to me by a FFS practice dentist who is friend of my family's a few weeks ago so I can't say it's an original thought. But I think he's right. If you think declining reimbursements are bad now, wait till you see what happens with a 10 or even 20% increase in the supply of dentists. There are only so many people who can afford to pay cash for dental work, and so any advantage people say dentistry has over medicine vis a vis more freedom from insurance companies will vanish with oversupply.
 
It's a very dishonest argument, though isn't it (not you personally)? How many of these graduates are actually going to go into rural areas? People change their tune when they're six figures in the hole.

The ironic thing is that rural practices is where the majority of the $$$ is.

Wow, I didn't know that ADA was taking money from these guys...

Not just ADA but dental boards...http://www.deltadentalil.com/assets..._Directors_Elects_Two_New_Dental_Officers.pdf
Follow the money...
 
I hope I'm being clear that I'm not attacking you-just responding to the arguments. If I haven't been clear on that, I'm sorry.

Yeah, which is why I think it's bad faith on the part of schools who want to open and apathy on the part of the ADA. I think your ideas are good too btw. Also, re Medicaid-I think the obvious answer is to increase reimbursements for it. I think if we're not careful that the profession could be destroyed-I'm not in it yet, but I've been in Medicaid offices and seen their ridiculous overbooking (by necessity). I think that could be the future of all dentists but a select few who are able to sustain FFS practices if there's an oversupply. Insurance reimbursements are already going down, and you increase the supply and instead of the increased supply adding to lobbying power, it'll be divide and conquer-they'll take whatever scraps they can get and all but FFS offices will be quadruple booked and have rushed work. This was explained to me by a FFS practice dentist who is friend of my family's a few weeks ago so I can't say it's an original thought. But I think he's right. If you think declining reimbursements are bad now, wait till you see what happens with a 10 or even 20% increase in the supply of dentists. There are only so many people who can afford to pay cash for dental work, and so any advantage people say dentistry has over medicine vis a vis more freedom from insurance companies will vanish with oversupply.

I didn't think you were attacking me at all. I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

I hadn't thought of it like this but your logic makes sense. Thank you for sharing.
 
The problem with new grads or relatively new grads buyig a FFS practice is that there is a lot of attrition that happens. Many patients will take this as an opportunity to find a new dentist that "takes" there insurance. I feel, it is far easier as a new dentist to ake as many PPO's as you can (not the crappy ones like UC or UHC) and not DPO's. Then once you have shown you are a good and honest practicioner, and have paid down your debt, start eliminating them. The DDS I work for did this. She is now only in network for Delta Premier and Superior. She has decreased working 4 8 hour days to 3 6 hour days and has seen only minor reduction in production.
 
The ironic thing is that rural practices is where the majority of the $$$ is.



Not just ADA but dental boards...http://www.deltadentalil.com/assets..._Directors_Elects_Two_New_Dental_Officers.pdf
Follow the money...

Up to a point though, right? You need 1) enough patients to sustain a practice and 2) said patients need to have money, or insurance that doesn't fsck you over. I'm not a dentist, but it's the same principle in any small business. I'm looking at it from the perspective of the business of law. When you're opening your own firm, you need to be sure that you will have a client base (people w/ legal needs in your practice area), and those people need to be able to pay you.

I believe these people when they say that rural medicine/dentistry is lacking. I think a lot of people mistake exurban for rural. I've seen lots of small businesses thrive in the exurbs-where middle to upper middle class people who work in cities and metro areas take their large incomes and buy homes where they can afford large ones-this seems to be how my orthodontist made a living-not a whole lot of commerce, but lots of well to do professionals with kids who want to be able to drive their kids to an orthodontist near their school.

But you get to really rural areas, with a virtually nonexistent economic base, and who's paying not just for dental work, but for any professional service? Medicaid, maybe. And who but the most self-sacrificing kind of person wants to move out to the middle of nowhere and open a Medicaid practice? Is this what they expect all these new graduates to do? I don't see it doing jack **** for people who need care.
 
The problem with new grads or relatively new grads buyig a FFS practice is that there is a lot of attrition that happens. Many patients will take this as an opportunity to find a new dentist that "takes" there insurance.

I did this. When I first moved away from home, I started seeing a dentist that my old dentist recommended. Saw him a couple years-FFS-paid for it because I liked the guy. He sold the practice and I figured eh, I'll just find a new in network dentist. I've never thought that dentists were fungible like that, and I am more surprised at people who *don't* look for a new dentist when theirs sells his/her practice.

My lay opinion was that any dentist can buy out a practice if he can raise the capital. So what? If my old dentist had hired the guy on as an associate or partner before he retired I would've seen that as a vote of confidence. Maybe I was mistaken but that was my opinion as a non dentist.
 
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The ADA is spineless. If it weren't Delta would not dictate reimbursements and Corporate Dentistry would get in trouble because they are not owned by denitsts, but by hedge fund managers. Delta and Aspen give $$$ to the ADA so new grads need to keep coming that will work for corporates and take PPO's.

You are one of the most outspoken members about adding new dental schools/spots, but interestingly enough, your stats were pretty low. If these new schools had not opened, you do realize your chances of getting into dental school would probably have been zero or close to zero? Also, you do realize that Delta Dental is a not-for-profit organization, right? It is technically owned by it's policy holders, not hedge fund managers, and even Aspen, being corporate is not owned by hedge fund managers, it's owned by shareholders, which is completely different. I live in an area were many people have to drive 1-2 hours to find a dentist and even farther to find an ortho, endo, OS, etc. Yes, some areas of the country are saturated, but not all areas. There is a NEED out there.

Why would you not take a DPPO when you are new to a practice? PPO's are medical plans and while some of the procedures you perform could qualify for medical reimbursement, the DPPO's are the better dental plans and being in-network for most companies is a good way to build your business. As for Delta dictating reimbursement, that is just how insurance works, both dental and medical, if you don't like it, don't join any networks and then you can charge whatever you want. Signing the contract with an insurance company, however, means you agree to their reduced reimbursement in return for the referrals from the websites and such.
 
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Very curious how you arrived at this conclusion

It's a well known fact. First of all, you are probably the only or one of 2 dentist within driving distance to several smaller towns and typically, you either buy an established practice or, if there isn't a practice in the area, there is a great need, thus, your practice is busy. If you can add some basic endo, ortho and OS to your practice, you will make more money vs being in a large down with a dentist on every corner.
 
Why would you not take a DPPO when you are new to a practice?

I meant DMO, not PPO, sorry for the typo.

You are one of the most outspoken members about adding new dental schools/spots, but interestingly enough, your stats were pretty low. If these new schools had not opened, you do realize your chances of getting into dental school would probably have been zero or close to zero?

I got into my state school. I didn't have to "fall back" on a very expensive OOS or private school, so this is moot. OSU told me what got me in was my 3.8 in hygiene school and 3.5 in my Bachelor program. Why my stats are low is from 18 years ago when I was 20 and got all F's because I failed to withdrawl 15 credit hours when I was going through a nasty divorce. I thought I had, when I ordered those transcripts, I realized they said I hadn't and because it was so long ago they nor I had any records of a withdrawl. Also, I did get a 20 on the DAT, which is the average acceptance.

Also, you do realize that Delta Dental is a not-for-profit organization, right?

Be that as it may, it is still a conflict of interest to have Delta executives sitting on a dental board, or on the ADA board of directors.

It's a well known fact. First of all, you are probably the only or one of 2 dentist within driving distance to several smaller towns and typically, you either buy an established practice or, if there isn't a practice in the area, there is a great need, thus, your practice is busy. If you can add some basic endo, ortho and OS to your practice, you will make more money vs being in a large down with a dentist on every corner.

What he said. I am form a small town of 1500 people. There is one dentist inthe entire county. The nearest "big" town(and by big I mean 5,000-10,000 people) is 45 minutes away. This is a gold mine. Cost of living is very low. Contrast with the city I live in now. You could drive down any major street and see at least 5 if not 10 dentists...oversaturation in metro areas...and I do live in the suburbs...
 
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wow thought it was a myth. thanks. sigh sad to see a health profession plummet


ok the way you comment is pretty funny in the beginning but it gets annoying.

please stop it. grow up man. ur comment contributes nothing to solving the problem or helping the discussion.
 
ok the way you comment is pretty funny in the beginning but it gets annoying.

please stop it. grow up man. ur comment contributes nothing to solving the problem or helping the discussion.

ok the way you comment is pretty funny in the beginning but it gets annoying.

please stop it. grow up man. ur comment contributes nothing to solving the problem or helping the discussion.

I'm sensing a pattern here...
 
I'm sensing a pattern here...


Your good.... A peacemaker....

But technically a pattern requires more data...

In this case, incis0r, it appears to be a copy and paste.....
 
Dentistry has an unemployment rate of 0.9%, and that's not going to change because another school or two opened up.
 
Touro doesn't have the best reputation.

Sounds like another "pay to play" school, which will charge obscene tuition for a borderline education that will produce minimally competent dentists.
Well it would definitely be a back up school for everyone who applies
 
Probably same thing that happened with pharmacy - the ADA can't regulate who gets to open a dental school, they can only set accreditation standards. Maybe they could find a way to limit more schools from opening by enacting more stringent accreditation requirements, but idk, maybe that's too complicated and they figure it'll work itself out through board passing rates...? Free market system and all... Or maybe ADA profits financially from more schools, so they aren't very concerned?

The reason it hasn't happened as much with med schools is because everyone is required to complete a residency, and the number of residency spots is set and funded by the US government (and hasn't changed much since the mid 90s). Schools know that they'd have a hard time selling the idea of getting through 4 yrs of med school only to be left up a creek without a paddle when there are no residency spots available. So they open schools of pharmacy, dental, optometry, etc. instead.
They should open in states with access to care issues
 
That's what I'm saying though. These new schools HAVE the research ("burden of proof") that suggests that there is a dentist shortage. Now, you and I both know that there is a disparity with over-saturation in cities and under-saturation in rural areas, but the research doesn't show the over-saturation in cities part. It stresses lack of care for the underserved. This is why ME, MN and other states are approving dental therapists. To address the shortage of access. As long as there is a lack of access in rural areas, the new dental schools will successfully win this argument. Is the ADA really willing to go out on a limb and deny that there is a shortage in rural areas?
ugh dental therapists.. please dont start that topic!
 
That's what I'm saying though. These new schools HAVE the research ("burden of proof") that suggests that there is a dentist shortage. Now, you and I both know that there is a disparity with over-saturation in cities and under-saturation in rural areas, but the research doesn't show the over-saturation in cities part. It stresses lack of care for the underserved. This is why ME, MN and other states are approving dental therapists. To address the shortage of access. As long as there is a lack of access in rural areas, the new dental schools will successfully win this argument. Is the ADA really willing to go out on a limb and deny that there is a shortage in rural areas?


This "argument" to justify tax dollars for new dental schools has been debunked many times over.

Do you think that graduating an extra 10, 20 or even 30% more dentists a year, particularly with the average indebtedness going up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, is going to induce more graduates to want to go live in the sticks/boonies?

Just because there is a lower dentist to population ratio in a given area does NOT mean those people will all suddenly decide to go to the dentist on a regular basis because there is now one within a 30 minute drive, nor does it mean they will gladly spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on their oral health. Those living in so called "underserved" areas do not generally make oral health a high priority. If it were economically viable for dentists to set up in these rural areas, more would ALREADY be doing it. The fact of the matter is, that in most areas deemed underserved, it is NOT economically viable to practice there.

If the government really wanted a cost efficient method to induce grads to go to these areas, they should simply pay for their educations in return for a period of years practicing in specific areas, with perhaps some further aid in opening an office there. Not much different than the inducements to get doctors into the military. Instead, MILLIONS of taxpayer dollars are wasted to open more schools which only leads to over saturation in the areas PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE IN.
 
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This "argument" to justify tax dollars for new dental schools has been debunked many times over.

Do you think that graduating an extra 10, 20 or even 30% more dentists a year, particularly with the average indebtedness going up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, is going to induce more graduates to want to go live in the sticks/boonies?

Just because there is a lower dentist to population ratio in a given area does NOT mean those people will all suddenly decide to go to the dentist on a regular basis because there is now one within a 30 minute drive, nor does it mean they will gladly spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on their oral health. Those living in so called "underserved" areas do not generally make oral health a high priority. If it were economically viable for dentists to set up in these rural areas, more would ALREADY be doing it. The fact of the matter is, that in most areas deemed underserved, it is NOT economically viable to practice there.

If the government really wanted a cost efficient method to induce grads to go to these areas, they should simply pay for their educations in return for a period of years practicing in specific areas, with perhaps some further aid in opening an office there. Not much different than the inducements to get doctors into the military. Instead, MILLIONS of taxpayer dollars are wasted to open more schools which only leads to over saturation in the areas PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE IN.

https://nhsc.hrsa.gov/scholarships/

https://services.aamc.org/fed_loan_...1&CFTOKEN=E3C8657B-A628-13CD-403642B3466037DE

They do....

Also, not all underserved areas are in the sticks/boonies...many are in major cities like NYC, etc., some are even in suburban areas around major cities. http://datawarehouse.hrsa.gov/tools/analyzers/hpsafind.aspx
 
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This "argument" to justify tax dollars for new dental schools has been debunked many times over.

Do you think that graduating an extra 10, 20 or even 30% more dentists a year, particularly with the average indebtedness going up into the hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, is going to induce more graduates to want to go live in the sticks/boonies?

Just because there is a lower dentist to population ratio in a given area does NOT mean those people will all suddenly decide to go to the dentist on a regular basis because there is now one within a 30 minute drive, nor does it mean they will gladly spend hundreds or thousands of dollars on their oral health. Those living in so called "underserved" areas do not generally make oral health a high priority. If it were economically viable for dentists to set up in these rural areas, more would ALREADY be doing it. The fact of the matter is, that in most areas deemed underserved, it is NOT economically viable to practice there.

If the government really wanted a cost efficient method to induce grads to go to these areas, they should simply pay for their educations in return for a period of years practicing in specific areas, with perhaps some further aid in opening an office there. Not much different than the inducements to get doctors into the military. Instead, MILLIONS of taxpayer dollars are wasted to open more schools which only leads to over saturation in the areas PEOPLE WANT TO LIVE IN.

DocJL,

With all due respect, I think you have misunderstood what I was saying; From your post, and more specifically your question (Do you think that graduating an extra...is going to induce more graduates to want to go live in the sticks/boonies?) I believe you are of the opinion that I am in favor of the "dentist shortage" argument, and that that I am a proponent of expanding dental schools.

Let me be clear- I had said that I thought the problem was allocation/concentration of dentists and that EXISTING dentists needed to be incentivized to go to these areas; I've copied and pasted one of the posts I made (post 154 on this thread) to further elaborate:

I agree- I'm not saying that the argument is ethical. It's unethical. I agree with you. This is why I think that NHSC scholarships and loan repayment ought to be significantly expanded. Send new grads out to rural areas for a year or two while helping them with their loans. This ensures a steady stream of new grads rotating through these areas, a solution to the access to care problem, and removes the need for more dental schools.

You said it correctly- the problem is allocation, not number. That's why we need to incentivize people to go rural. Unfortunately, the opportunities aren't great in many rural parts right now. Many residents of these areas have no insurance or are on Medicaid. So a private practice wouldn't be profitable for a dentist with heavy loans. Community health centers here are a good idea.

In case people in the future wonder about my position, let me be clear about it once more:

I believe that this country has more than enough dentists to treat everyone. Currently, there are about 147K dentists in the US (BLS). For a 330M population, that gives us a favorable patient to dentist ratio of ~2200 to 1. But, like I said, the problem is that those dentists are more concentrated in certain parts of the country and less so in other parts of the country. Nothing wrong with the dentists for choosing where they live- but it does mean that more incentives need to be placed in underserved areas.

I believe that access to care is a primary issue, and that expanding loan repayment opportunity and providing dental students with the ability to graduate with reduced debt (via more NHSC scholarships) will be an excellent way to solve two problem: 1) The increasing student debt and 2) shortage of access to care. *(I do think that NHSC scholarships and military scholarships, and even federal loans for dental school, need to have a cut-off point at which they won't fund any more. I don't want the nation's dental schools charging our government $800,000 for a dental education, and seeing non-scholarship dental students in that much debt- this is a separate issue however).

I believe that, in order to make dental practices profitable in these underserved regions, it's about time to start increasing Medicaid reimbursement. Many of the people in rural areas don't have insurance through their workplace, and their low incomes qualify them for this. However, based on what I've read over on DentalTown, people who take Medicaid barely break even on their procedures, and they go through a lot of scrutiny and red tape. If this problem is solved and dentists are provided in these regions, then I think the amount of people who don't utilize dental care will be severely reduced. (This is in reference to your point about people in underserved area not making dental care a priority). I mean, let's not forget. The "Missions of Mercy" in some states are a great example of how many people who lack dental insurance WANT dental care. They just don't have a low-cost pathway to it currently.

In conclusion, I believe that the mechanisms that you described (pay for school in exchange for rural service, help start up practice) are already in place. They just need to be expanded to incentivize more dentists to move there.
 
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I think a lot of people also need to get past the rural area=poor thinking too. Sure, in some areas that is the case, but in the rural area I live in, that is considered underserved as well, the average income is probably higher than what you would find in NYC. The farmers in the area make more in government subsidies than most Wall Street investment bankers and generally pay cash for dental care since they obviously don't have a plan through work. I think there is a general misconception that dentists will make more money in a big city as well and maybe their "income" is higher, but the cost of living is much higher as well. The rural lifestyle is something you have to want though too.
 
i'm sorry but the touro system is a joke. the fact that they opened up a dental school is comical.
 
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Slowly but surely....

We got a site now


http://dental.touro.edu


25 minutes away from me too :laugh:. I definitely envy people who get to stay closer to home.

I think everyone is much safer going to a school that has a proven model and has been in business a lot longer. I personally wouldn't want glitches being fixed on my educational and financial expense.

I understand its good being close to home, but just go somewhere else and come home once a month. Even then, you'll still be saving money and won't be looking over your shoulder.
 
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i'm sorry but the touro system is a joke. the fact that they opened up a dental school is comical.

I feel bad for the people that don't realize this yet. Talk to people that have gone to a school in the Touro system, they'll all agree: it's best avoided if you have any other options available.
 
getting patients is going to be a chore. whenever you have a school situated in suburbia you're always going to have a tougher time getting patients. medicaid patients often times don't have the means to travel to clinics in these areas. not to mention, the area isn't underserved..so...i don't see how they're going to get patients. that area isn't exactly poor either

everyone here in NYC takes the subway, and it's cheap. even elderly patients have the option of taking the metro system or calling in shuttles, just because the resources are that plentiful.
 
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getting patients is going to be a chore. whenever you have a school situated in suburbia you're always going to have a tougher time getting patients. medicaid patients often times don't have the means to travel to clinics in these areas. not to mention, the area isn't underserved..so...i don't see how they're going to get patients. that area isn't exactly poor either

everyone here in NYC takes the subway, and it's cheap. even elderly patients have the option of taking the metro system or calling in shuttles, just because the resources are that plentiful.


Look at stony brook

Look at UOP


What is your point?

There will always be patients.
 
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Look at stony brook

Look at UOP


What is your point?

There will always be patients.

stonybrook is situated in the middle of long island, and they have a monopoly of patients in long island. not to mention they have a small class size. you're talking the middle of long island, which isn't as affluent vs. westchester county. are you serious? do you want to pick up lower income patients from scarsdale or something?

and UOP..have you been to san francisco? UOP is situated in union square now after relocation so, chances are they don't have that issue.

the towns of hawthorne and valhalla ny have less than 5,000 people. where are they going to get patients? and it's not just a matter of the number of patients. it's the type of patient you need. if one student sees 300 patients a year, with 90% of them being recall visits for prophys (cleanings), then how are you going to get your removable partial denture requirement so you can graduate?

in any case, if they can prove their point to the ADEA then it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.
 
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Don't forget that all these dentists that were supposed to be retiring, are going to delay their retirement due to the recent recession which gutted the 401k and retirement savings of many. Healthcare professionals, such as MDs and dentists, are notorious for being bad investors and many of them got hit hard during the recession. I think this will make things very difficult for us in the future.

Also, those of you who think that if you 'go rural', you will somehow be raking in the dough, you are mistaken. Firstly, many of these 'rural' areas are already having dentists come over, and secondly going rural has a whole new set of challenges/difficulties that don't exist in the cities (I would know as I've spent years working for medical offices in both rural and urban areas).
 
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Don't forget that all these dentists that were supposed to be retiring, are going to delay their retirement due to the recent recession which gutted the 401k and retirement savings of many. Healthcare professionals, such as MDs and dentists, are notorious for being bad investors and many of them got hit hard during the recession. I think this will make things very difficult for us in the future.

Also, those of you who think that if you 'go rural', you will somehow be raking in the dough, you are mistaken. Firstly, many of these 'rural' areas are already having dentists come over, and secondly going rural has a whole new set of challenges/difficulties that don't exist in the cities (I would know as I've spent years working for medical offices in both rural and urban areas).

The market is 2000 points above where it was before the crash. Where do you get your information that healthcare professionals are bad investors? My mom is a retired financial planner and a large part of her business was doctors and dentists??
 
The market is 2000 points above where it was before the crash. Where do you get your information that healthcare professionals are bad investors? My mom is a retired financial planner and a large part of her business was doctors and dentists??

I've heard it from a lot of the doctors I've talked to. Many of them talked about the poor shape their portfolios were in after the recession.
Also, numerous financial planners, back this up. Doctors/dentists are often so busy with their profession, that they make 'easy' targets:

http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/06/physicians-wealthy.html
http://business.financialpost.com/p...e-wealthy-make-bad-money-management-decisions
http://www.wsj.com/articles/financial-advisers-niche-telling-doctors-what-ails-them-1429018793
 
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Not to be too picky, but dentists are doctors. Physicians are doctors. The proper term is physicians and dentists despite this fact being ignored a great deal!
 
A good quote I found that describes 99% of jobs EXCEPT dentistry. "
"We can't experience the full potential of the info-tech revolution because we can't imagine what to do with the millions of people that would lose their jobs."

Fortunately for dentists, the very nature of their job would make it very difficult to be replaced by a robot. This profession is much too personal. That's like saying a computer can replace a surgeon. Yes some procedures can make use of that da vinci robot or whatever it's called, but a surgeon will always be present.

What we SHOULD be worrying about are hospital consolidations. What we see happening to MDs and their practices will soon happen to us. Hospitals are currently buying up each other and as many physician practices as possible, and doctors are becoming salaried employees of hospitals. For some people this might be fine, you do your 9-5 you make your 100k+ and thats it; no overhead costs, no employee insurance.... but also no freedom, no more making 500k+ on good years, and no more being the boss. You will always have a Director or VP that will treat you like every other employee.

And why is this? Well hospitals, which are facing huge financial difficulties these days, view dental offices as ideal money makers, think about it on a procedural basis: Look at hospital cost. You have inpatient stay, surgeon, operating room nurse, anesthesiologist, nurse anesthetist, and the list goes on. Dentistry: You have a completely outpatient procedure performed by a dentist and assistant, sometimes also a hygienist. So when you see women who gave birth and is told to discharge LESS THAN 12 HOURS afterward, it's a scary extreme of an example where hospitals have to reduce costs.

For now, all is good in the dental world, but as we know, the cost of a slice of pizza has increased more than the insurance cap on dental work in the last 20 years. So as dental offices become more pressured for money, and hospitals continue buying offices, it will be inevitable that hospitals will attempt to consolidate dental offices too, which will truly be a sad day if it ever comes to that.

What is the solution? Who knows.. but for now GROUP PRACTICES! Make friends with other dentists!

Source: MBA in Healthcare Management
Group practice. Roll with the punches if you gotta.
 
Just because...

you are not... good enough..
to get in to other schools...
and you want more...

substandard dental schools...
to open...
so you can increase that...
slim... chance of acceptance...

doesn't mean other people share your opinion,
and want over population of graduates that will damage the overall profession.
And arguing is fine, just bring some real facts, logic, and a little bit of common sense.
I know this is hard for you, but please try your best.

Ugh, my brain cells died from writing like that.
I kinda read it in a Christopher Walken voice lol
 
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The market is 2000 points above where it was before the crash. Where do you get your information that healthcare professionals are bad investors? My mom is a retired financial planner and a large part of her business was doctors and dentists??



As a practicing dentist who lost his ass in the crash, and know SEVERAL other dentists and doctors who lost a big chunk of change in the crash, I can vouch for miley's info. (I would lol here if it wasn't such a sad story.....)
 
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I've heard it from a lot of the doctors I've talked to. Many of them talked about the poor shape their portfolios were in after the recession.
Also, numerous financial planners, back this up. Doctors/dentists are often so busy with their profession, that they make 'easy' targets:

/QUOTE]


.


This is soooooo true.

I can't tell you how many times I have been approached or called and invited to dinners to try to sell me on some kind of investment.

A good friend of mine who is a physician was laughing as he told me that financial planners, etc, are always trying to get access to the physicians' break room (usually by one of the doctors who is their client) so they can make their pitch to all of the other doctors who might be taking a quick break during their busy day.
 
Touro college dental is going to be great. A nice addition to NY.
 
Wow. I cannot believe how some people are commenting that this school is going to be a "great addition."

Just from a little research, it seems that Touro is not a reputable school and the ONLY reason that it built a dental school is to MAKE MONEY. Dental schools like this are a BUSINESS!! Who are the customers? THE DENTAL STUDENTS!!

NO pre-dent should ever be HAPPY about the fact that his/her chances of getting accepted just increased just because of Touro. An opening of new dental schools will only hurt the dental profession by diluting the supply of dentists AND decreasing quality of care by producing dentists that are not well trained.

To any pre-dent that says that this is a good thing: please, please, please think about the next 20 years down the road when you have become a dentist and are trying to make ends meet, but are finding it difficult to do so because there are too many dentists out there.

In the end, I would rather have to apply twice to get into dental school than to get into Touro, dilute the market, and jeopardize my future.
 
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I think you are not being truthful to yourself. I am pretty sure if Touro was the only school that you got accepted to, you would go to it as oppose to waiting another cycle. Maybe you are right in the sense that Touro didn't have the best reputation like 15 years ago. But if you do more "research" you can see how much they have grown and expanded over the years and now they have multiple PA schools, PT schools, DO schools, Nursing schools, now they have a top notch medical school, and now even a dental school. Maybe their undergraduate schools are not the best out there, but the post graduate schools are pretty competitive.
 
This is soooooo true.

I can't tell you how many times I have been approached or called and invited to dinners to try to sell me on some kind of investment.

A good friend of mine who is a physician was laughing as he told me that financial planners, etc, are always trying to get access to the physicians' break room (usually by one of the doctors who is their client) so they can make their pitch to all of the other doctors who might be taking a quick break during their busy day.

Maybe if they are such bad investors they should be talking to those financial planners???
 
I think you are not being truthful to yourself. I am pretty sure if Touro was the only school that you got accepted to, you would go to it as oppose to waiting another cycle. Maybe you are right in the sense that Touro didn't have the best reputation like 15 years ago. But if you do more "research" you can see how much they have grown and expanded over the years and now they have multiple PA schools, PT schools, DO schools, Nursing schools, now they have a top notch medical school, and now even a dental school. Maybe their undergraduate schools are not the best out there, but the post graduate schools are pretty competitive.

You're right. If I were accepted ONLY to Touro, what choice would I have but to attend? I didn't say "I would rather apply twice" I said "I would rather HAVE TO" or be forced to apply twice to get into a dental school if Touro is not an option.

The thing is, if you're motivated enough and are not competitive enough to get into dental school, you will make it happen, regardless of any barriers. You will take an extra year and raise that GPA. You will do a masters. You will retake the DAT. Whatever it takes.

I just feel that Touro presents an easy shortcut to those who barely made it, but if you think in the long term (aka 20 years down the road when you're practicing dentistry), the negative effects of these shortcuts can be seen, and it's not pretty. It's also not fair to those who worked their *** off in becoming a dentist, because the rewarding career that they worked so hard for would not be as rewarding anymore. This is what I have a problem with.

Also, I realize that this is more of a rant. Nothing can be done about it. Touro will probably get approved and thousands of predents will flock to its application with the intention of scoring it big. I just want predents to be aware of long term consequences that they contribute to when they apply to this kind of institution. It's like adding fuel to the fire.
 
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