True Pass/Fail Schools?

[SigurRos]

A lot of schools claim to be pass/fail, but students are still on a tiered system or still somehow ranked even without grades being given. I was hoping to put together a list of true p/f schools to discern them from pseudo pass/fail. I'll start with...

1. University of Chicago - true p/f first two years. Graded ms3 and ms 4.

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[ufgrad00]

I believe, may be wrong, but AE is true pass/fail, and U. Miami as well. Someone should check though, if they think otherwise.

1. University of Chicago - true p/f first two years. Graded ms3 and ms 4
2. Albert Einstein
3. University of Miami

 

[lemon tree]

this has been done like a zillion times. there was a thread about a month ago that compiled a list and discussed which were "true" pass/fail.

btw, Yale is even better than pass/fail. tests are anonymous and optional and there are no grades at all.

 

[Doublecortin]

UCLA

 

[ufgrad00]

Well, we'll make a new one. I took info from pass threads and didn't add schools which have Honors/High pass/pass etc... for the first two years.

1. University of Chicago - true p/f first two years. Graded ms3 and ms 4
2. Albert Einstein
3. University of Miami
4. UCLA
5. UCSF
6. Stanford
7. UConn (Apparently no AOA)
8. Virginia
9. MSSM
10. Yale
11. UMichigan
12. UC Davis
12. Harvard

 

[DemetriMartin]

i got this list from: http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm




Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University
Boonshoft School of Medicine at Wright State University
Case Western Reserve University School of Medicine
David Geffen School of Medicine at UCLA
Harvard Medical School
Keck School of Medicine of the University of Southern California
Loma Linda University School of Medicine
Mayo Medical School
McGill University Faculty of Medicine
Memorial University of Newfoundland Faculty of Medicine
Mercer University School of Medicine
Morehouse School of Medicine
Mount Sinai School of Medicine of New York University
New York University School of Medicine
Northern Ontario School of Medicine
Northwestern University, The Feinberg School of Medicine
Southern Illinois University School of Medicine
Stanford University School of Medicine
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School
University of Alabama School of Medicine
University of Calgary Faculty of Medicine
University of California, Davis, School of Medicine
University of California, San Francisco, School of Medicine
University of Chicago Pritzker School of Medicine
University of Connecticut School of Medicine
University of Hawaii John A. Burns School of Medicine
University of Kentucky College of Medicine
University of Manitoba Faculty of Medicine
University of Massachusetts Medical School
University of Michigan Medical School
University of Minnesota Medical School
University of Missouri-Columbia School of Medicine
University of Saskatchewan College of Medicine
University of Utah School of Medicine
University of Virginia School of Medicine
University of Washington School of Medicine
Washington University in St. Louis School of Medicine

 

[lemon tree]

hahahahhahhahahha. nuf said!!

 

[TheRealMD]

Well, we'll make a new one. I took info from pass threads and didn't add schools which have Honors/High pass/pass etc... for the first two years.

1. University of Chicago - true p/f first two years. Graded ms3 and ms 4
2. Albert Einstein
3. University of Miami
4. UCLA
5. UCSF
6. Stanford
7. UConn (Apparently no AOA)
8. Virginia
9. MSSM
10. Yale
11. UMichigan
12. UC Davis
12. Harvard
13. Baylor

Uhh... Baylor is H/HP/P/MP/F which is pretty much A/B/C/D/F for neurotic pre-meds. Definitely shouldn't be on that list.

 

[LaMusicienne]

University of Virginia is P/F, but they still have the "top 20% gets honors" thing. Since the OP wanted schools without rankings, I'd take UVA off the list.

 

[Drogba]

Well, we'll make a new one. I took info from pass threads and didn't add schools which have Honors/High pass/pass etc... for the first two years.

1. University of Chicago - true p/f first two years. Graded ms3 and ms 4
2. Albert Einstein
3. University of Miami
4. UCLA
5. UCSF
6. Stanford
7. UConn (Apparently no AOA)
8. Virginia
9. MSSM
10. Yale
11. UMichigan
12. UC Davis
12. Harvard

Why?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-468257.html

 

[bigDee]

btw, Yale is even better than pass/fail. tests are anonymous and optional and there are no grades at all.

I don't understand this. Someone please expand.

 

[Picklesali]

I don't understand this. Someone please expand.

Behold, The Yale System

Students should be considered adults in a graduate school and be permitted to enjoy as large a degree of freedom as is consistent with the fulfillment of requirements for the degree of Doctor of Medicine. Memorization of facts should be far less important than a well-rounded education in fundamental principles, training in methods of investigation, and the acquisition of the scientific habit of mind. Thus, attendance is not taken, and much basic science instruction occurs in small-group seminars or conferences. Students evaluate themselves through optional, anonymous examinations. Their performance is assessed by the faculty through participation in seminars, by an anonymous (but coded) qualifying examination at the end of each course, by performance on clinical clerkships, and by passing of the United States Medical Licensing Examinations (USMLE).
In the first two years, there are no grades and there is no class ranking. While grades are not given and rank order not established, evaluation of students is an important part of the educational process. The faculty considers small-group teaching with interchange between faculty and students to be the most effective means of teaching and evaluation. Students should expect direct questioning at seminars and laboratories as an important adjunct to the evaluation process. The final decision of acceptable performance for a given course remains with the chairman of the department and/or the designated director of the course. Upon completing a course, all students are required to submit an evaluation. Freed from the usual anxieties provoked by examinations, students tend to learn for their future rather than for tests. Competition for grades is eliminated and students are eager to help one another. Class spirit is remarkably high year after year.

 

[biggiesmallsiz]

Behold, The Yale System

i wet my pants.

 

[nosugrefneb]

1. University of Chicago - true p/f first two years. Graded ms3 and ms 4.

Actually the MS4 year goes back to P/F as far as I'm aware. MS3 is graded as honors/high pass/pass/conditional pass/fail.

 

[TheRealMD]

Actually the MS4 year goes back to P/F as far as I'm aware. MS3 is graded as honors/high pass/pass/conditional pass/fail.

MS4 year doesn't matter that much to anyone really anyway. You've already done interviews by the time you have gotten grades back. It's extended vacation!

 

[ufgrad00]

Why?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-468257.html

I want to know which schools do this as well as the OP.

After visiting a few schools I am a big fan of P/F. Coming from UF, I want to be done dealing with the unnecessary uber competitive environment.

 

[Drogba]

I want to know which schools do this as well as the OP.

After visiting a few schools I am a big fan of P/F. Coming from UF, I want to be done dealing with the unnecessary uber competitive environment.

I'm sorry, I did not notice that you were building on the list compiled in the other thread I thought you were trying to construct one from scratch even though the work had already been done in another thread which seemed pretty silly to me. I'm also interested in this question I just didn't want people wasting time rehashing previous threads.

 

[ufgrad00]

I'm sorry, I did not notice that you were building on the list compiled in the other thread I thought you were trying to construct one from scratch even though the work had already been done in another thread which seemed pretty silly to me. I'm also interested in this question I just didn't want people wasting time rehashing previous threads.

Thanks for the link, and I have been noticing that is/was a common topic. I visited the AMCAS website that someone previously noted, to check up on U Miami and some other schools, and I am very impressed with the way amcas lets you know how the curriculum is graded at different schools throughout each year.

 

[Drogba]

Most useful post from the thread I linked. Notice that the AMCAS provided information includes schools with internal rankings, which may or may not be a drawback for you. The below list is for schools purported to be "true" P/F schools, that is without a internal ranking. It would be nice to build on this list.

11-16-2007, 01:31 AM
The AAMC link doesn't answer the OP's question. Many schools use P/F grading, but keep track of percentiles in subjects and use it to contribute to rank.

Davis is true P/F, no ranking for years 1 & 2.
OK. This is the current list. Although I have not personally confirmed each school yet, I have included only the P/F schools which have no hidden rankings (according to you guys):

1. Davis
2. Creighton
3. Yale
4. Pritzker
5. Stanford
6. Case Western
7. Virginia

This list is probably very incomplete, and I'm sure I might have overlooked a pertinent post. Please feel free to amend/correct this list.

 

[CCLCMer]

CCLCM is true P/F all five years. We have no tests, no grades, no ranking including in clinics. If you decide to do an MS, you will get grades from Case for your grad school coursework, but not for any of your med school coursework.

 

[fever106]

Many medical schools grade you on the P/F system, while others do H/HP/P/F or some form of grading. You must keep in mind that regardless of the scale the school uses, all medical schools rank their students. The dean at my med school told us that when it comes time for residency applications, every single medical school provides student rankings to the programs. The only thing that is different at P/F schools is they may not tell you where you are in the class rank until you graduate (if ever). However, after each exam a class histogram will invariably be posted, and you will find out your grades, so you will still have a pretty good idea of how you compare to your classmates. Yes, the person who gets a 90% sees the same P on their transcript as the student who gets a 70%, but the better student will still rank higher in the class. The P/F system does not alleviate competition in med school, contrary to popular belief.

In other words, grading in med school makes absolutely no difference because everyone is still competing for their rank, and whether you see a P, an H, an A, a B, etc. is pretty meaningless. In the end, the residency programs care about two things...your step 1 score and your rank in your class. The step 1 is far more important than the latter, and your clinical grades (ie rank) is much much more important than the basic science years. Therefore, I would choose a medical school based on how good they are at prepping students for the boards and on the quality of the clinical education, rather than on how they present their grading system.

 

[lemon tree]

Many medical schools grade you on the P/F system, while others do H/HP/P/F or some form of grading. You must keep in mind that regardless of the scale the school uses, all medical schools rank their students. The dean at my med school told us that when it comes time for residency applications, every single medical school provides student rankings to the programs. The only thing that is different at P/F schools is they may not tell you where you are in the class rank until you graduate (if ever). However, after each exam a class histogram will invariably be posted, and you will find out your grades, so you will still have a pretty good idea of how you compare to your classmates. Yes, the person who gets a 90% sees the same P on their transcript as the student who gets a 70%, but the better student will still rank higher in the class. The P/F system does not alleviate competition in med school, contrary to popular belief.

In other words, grading in med school makes absolutely no difference because everyone is still competing for their rank, and whether you see a P, an H, an A, a B, etc. is pretty meaningless. In the end, the residency programs care about two things...your step 1 score and your rank in your class. The step 1 is far more important than the latter, and your clinical grades (ie rank) is much much more important than the basic science years. Therefore, I would choose a medical school based on how good they are at prepping students for the boards and on the quality of the clinical education, rather than on how they present their grading system.

how can a school with anonymous and optional exams rank you?

 

[Picklesali]

Many medical schools grade you on the P/F system, while others do H/HP/P/F or some form of grading. You must keep in mind that regardless of the scale the school uses, all medical schools rank their students. The dean at my med school told us that when it comes time for residency applications, every single medical school provides student rankings to the programs. The only thing that is different at P/F schools is they may not tell you where you are in the class rank until you graduate (if ever). However, after each exam a class histogram will invariably be posted, and you will find out your grades, so you will still have a pretty good idea of how you compare to your classmates. Yes, the person who gets a 90% sees the same P on their transcript as the student who gets a 70%, but the better student will still rank higher in the class. The P/F system does not alleviate competition in med school, contrary to popular belief.

In other words, grading in med school makes absolutely no difference because everyone is still competing for their rank, and whether you see a P, an H, an A, a B, etc. is pretty meaningless. In the end, the residency programs care about two things...your step 1 score and your rank in your class. The step 1 is far more important than the latter, and your clinical grades (ie rank) is much much more important than the basic science years. Therefore, I would choose a medical school based on how good they are at prepping students for the boards and on the quality of the clinical education, rather than on how they present their grading system.

This is not true. There are some schools (the list that this thread is attempting to compile) that are TRUE pass/fail for the first two years. Meaning there are no rankings until the clinical years. I just visited Case Western, for instance, and they don't even get a percentage on their exams.

 

[fever106]

This is not true. There are some schools (the list that this thread is attempting to compile) that are TRUE pass/fail for the first two years. Meaning there are no rankings until the clinical years. I just visited Case Western, for instance, and they don't even get a percentage on their exams.

I am just warning you guys that some schools say they are true pass/fail, but they are really ranking. This is a common phenomenon. Obviously, schools without exams or grades can't rank for the basic sciences (although, they may use USMLE scores instead).

 

[LovelyMD]

Many medical schools grade you on the P/F system, while others do H/HP/P/F or some form of grading. You must keep in mind that regardless of the scale the school uses, all medical schools rank their students. The dean at my med school told us that when it comes time for residency applications, every single medical school provides student rankings to the programs. The only thing that is different at P/F schools is they may not tell you where you are in the class rank until you graduate (if ever). However, after each exam a class histogram will invariably be posted, and you will find out your grades, so you will still have a pretty good idea of how you compare to your classmates. Yes, the person who gets a 90% sees the same P on their transcript as the student who gets a 70%, but the better student will still rank higher in the class. The P/F system does not alleviate competition in med school, contrary to popular belief.

In other words, grading in med school makes absolutely no difference because everyone is still competing for their rank, and whether you see a P, an H, an A, a B, etc. is pretty meaningless. In the end, the residency programs care about two things...your step 1 score and your rank in your class. The step 1 is far more important than the latter, and your clinical grades (ie rank) is much much more important than the basic science years. Therefore, I would choose a medical school based on how good they are at prepping students for the boards and on the quality of the clinical education, rather than on how they present their grading system.

Many schools do operate the way you described, but there are a few schools that really do not rank students (Yale being one of them). I definitely agree with your last sentence though, and I'm not choosing schools based on their grading system. Many schools that are P/F during the first two years are not P/F during the clinical years (the grades that actually matter) anyway, so I don't see the point in choosing schools just because they're P/F the first two years. (Especially since many P/F schools have internal rankings anyway)

 

[Lokhtar]

Doesn't your dean keep track of your actual grades which are reflected in his letter?

 

[notdeadyet]

You misunderstand....These "true" pass fail schools are not really true P/F schools. My dean told us that they tell students this, but it is NOT true. Every school ranks its students.

Your dean is flat out wrong. I'm suprised a medical school dean would actually think this. You keep kicking around this "fact" in spite of folks letting you know this is not the case at some schools.

Some schools are P/F but percentages are tracked and used to compile rankings of students regardless. This is common.

Some schools are P/F and percentages are not tracked for ranking. Most of these schools start ranking during clinical years, using rotation grades (or honors/P/F) and step 1 for ranking. Some schools (less frequently) never rank their students at all.

Trending is moving towards P/F with ranking only done during third and fourth year. More schools have adopted this approach lately and very few have converted from P/F back to grades with ranks. Schools that never rank seem to be keeping in the small minority, as apparently it has irritated some residency directors.

She told us they tell students this for the first two years to keep "stress" levels lower, but the schools are always compiling a class rank. Period.

Huh. Maybe your medical school lies to their students about things like this, but I think you'll find that's a pretty unusual approach for medical schools to take. Most are pretty honest with their students.

Med schools are basically fishbowls. Trying to run policy one way and lie to students about it is cruisin' for a bruisin'. Word will get out and you set yourself up for lawsuits and all sorts of nastyness.

I sit on the education committee at my school (non-voting student member). All lead faculty and deans attend these meetings and determine all curriculum and ed policy decisions at them. I know for a fact that ranking does not happen at my school. Therefore, ranking does not happen at all schools. You can tell your dean she's wrong about this.

If anyone goes to a school and wonders if their school is lying to them about ranking, ask for it in writing. Most schools have charters about policy they can point you too. Of they can notify you in writing. Lying to students about something like that is just plain silly. There is no upside for the school and the downside could be disastrous.

 

[lemon tree]

Doesn't your dean keep track of your actual grades which are reflected in his letter?

how can he keep track of something that doesn't exist.

optional tests and anonymous. read my lips.

 

[notdeadyet]

how can he keep track of something that doesn't exist.

optional tests and anonymous. read my lips.

Lemon tree is right about that. A policy like that wouldn't work at Backwater State SOM, but at Yale they can get away with it.

It's tough to use a policy of not ranking your students at all if you're a lower tier medical school without a national reputation, but it flies if you have a reputation like Yale's.

 

[fever106]

Your dean is flat out wrong. I'm suprised a medical school dean would actually think this. You keep kicking around this "fact" in spite of folks letting you know this is not the case at some schools.

Some schools are P/F but percentages are tracked and used to compile rankings of students regardless. This is common.

Some schools are P/F and percentages are not tracked for ranking. Most of these schools start ranking during clinical years, using rotation grades (or honors/P/F) and step 1 for ranking. Some schools (less frequently) never rank their students at all.

Trending is moving towards P/F with ranking only done during third and fourth year. More schools have adopted this approach lately and very few have converted from P/F back to grades with ranks. Schools that never rank seem to be keeping in the small minority, as apparently it has irritated some residency directors.

Huh. Maybe your medical school lies to their students about things like this, but I think you'll find that's a pretty unusual approach for medical schools to take. Most are pretty honest with their students.

Med schools are basically fishbowls. Trying to run policy one way and lie to students about it is cruisin' for a bruisin'. Word will get out and you set yourself up for lawsuits and all sorts of nastyness.

I sit on the education committee at my school (non-voting student member). All lead faculty and deans attend these meetings and determine all curriculum and ed policy decisions at them. I know for a fact that ranking does not happen at my school. Therefore, ranking does not happen at all schools. You can tell your dean she's wrong about this.

If anyone goes to a school and wonders if their school is lying to them about ranking, ask for it in writing. Most schools have charters about policy they can point you too. Of they can notify you in writing. Lying to students about something like that is just plain silly. There is no upside for the school and the downside could be disastrous.

First of all, you are completely incorrect about there being a legal liability on this issue. The medical schools don't have any obligation to conform to an evaluation process dictated by the students. Secondly, in general, schools are not lying because they never promise that you are not being ranked. They generally tell you that you will not be given "grades." By the way, there is such a thing as AOA, which takes the top percentage of medical school classes. If there is no ranking going on at a place like Yale (or the other institutions you have mentioned), how would students be evaluated for membership on a level playing field? Finally, in a "P/F" system exams are being given and graded, and you would be incredibly naive to believe that the data from this process is simply being discarded.

 

[Jolie South]

First of all, you are completely incorrect about there being a legal liability on this issue. The medical schools don't have any obligation to conform to an evaluation process dictated by the students. Secondly, in general, schools are not lying because they never promise that you are not being ranked. They generally tell you that you will not be given "grades." By the way, there is such a thing as AOA, which takes the top percentage of medical school classes. If there is no ranking going on at a place like Yale (or the other institutions you have mentioned), how would students be evaluated for membership on a level playing field? Finally, in a "P/F" system exams are being given and graded, and you would be incredibly naive to believe that the data from this process is simply being discarded.

Whether they take the data and whether they use it are 2 different things.

I know at UT Houston the grading is H/HP/P/MP/F, but they absolutely do not send out the rank with your dean's letter. Granted we're talking about P/F schools here, but I just wanted to point out that having it does not necessarily mean that it will be released indiscriminately.

 

[notdeadyet]

Secondly, in general, schools are not lying because they never promise that you are not being ranked.

Lots of schools explicitly state that you are not being ranked. At these schools, unless you have a devious dean (think Mr. Burns) who is probably on his way out due to litigation, if a school tells you explicitly that you are not being ranked your first two years, you aren't being ranked. 'Nuff said.

One would need to be prety foolish to attend a medical school and not ask about ranking. Do not assume that because you are going to a P/F school, you are not being ranked. But don't assume you are. Send an email to your dean. They'll answer you. If you're worried that the answer is part of a conspiracy, just put on your tin foil hat and you'll be okay.

By the way, there is such a thing as AOA, which takes the top percentage of medical school classes. If there is no ranking going on at a place like Yale (or the other institutions you have mentioned), how would students be evaluated for membership on a level playing field?

I can't speak for Yale, as I decided not to go there (not applying since I didn't have a prayer of getting in contributed to that decision).

As for my medical school, we are ranked beginning in third year based on our clinical clerkship performance and step 1. We take the step 1 in March of the second year of medical school and begin rotations after that (we have early start dates and shorter breaks, so our calendar is a bit skewed) which allows time for enough clerkships and the step 1 to rank us for AOA membership.

Finally, in a "P/F" system exams are being given and graded, and you would be incredibly naive to believe that the data from this process is simply being discarded.

<sigh> Exams are given and graded because they need to be to determine if you pass or fail. This doesn't imply that the data follows you.

Many schools don't rank the first two years. Some schools don't rank at all. It may sound farfetched since that's not how they do it at your school, but it's true. Talk to med students at these schools. I wouldn't lie to you.

And incidentally, any time anyone says a sweeping generalizations about all medical schools, it should get your antennae wiggling. Very little is consistent amongst all medical schools, and even deans do not have a deep knowledge of the inner workings of all medical schools. The next time she says something like that, she's probably generalizing.

 

[fever106]

Lots of schools explicitly state that you are not being ranked. At these schools, unless you have a devious dean (think Mr. Burns) who is probably on his way out due to litigation, if a school tells you explicitly that you are not being ranked your first two years, you aren't being ranked. 'Nuff said.

One would need to be prety foolish to attend a medical school and not ask about ranking. Do not assume that because you are going to a P/F school, you are not being ranked. But don't assume you are. Send an email to your dean. They'll answer you. If you're worried that the answer is part of a conspiracy, just put on your tin foil hat and you'll be okay.

I can't speak for Yale, as I decided not to go there (not applying since I didn't have a prayer of getting in contributed to that decision).

As for my medical school, we are ranked beginning in third year based on our clinical clerkship performance and step 1. We take the step 1 in March of the second year of medical school and begin rotations after that (we have early start dates and shorter breaks, so our calendar is a bit skewed) which allows time for enough clerkships and the step 1 to rank us for AOA membership.

<sigh> Exams are given and graded because they need to be to determine if you pass or fail. This doesn't imply that the data follows you.

Many schools don't rank the first two years. Some schools don't rank at all. It may sound farfetched since that's not how they do it at your school, but it's true. Talk to med students at these schools. I wouldn't lie to you.

And incidentally, any time anyone says a sweeping generalizations about all medical schools, it should get your antennae wiggling. Very little is consistent amongst all medical schools, and even deans do not have a deep knowledge of the inner workings of all medical schools. The next time she says something like that, she's probably generalizing.

First of all, why would one necessarily have to be foolish not to check whether a prospective schools ranks their students? Some of us just don't care. We plan to do our best, and we realize that we are entering a profession where our level of knowledge and skill is always going to be evaluated. By the way, your school ranks you also, they may just use fewer exams to do it. The only situation in which you are not graded and ranked is if no tests are given...and even then you may be ranked by more subjective criteria (participation, bed side manner, etc.). If you are going to be a doctor, you are going to be ranked, scrutinized, and evaluated, because if you mess up, THAT will result in litigation (not whether or not the school told you the truth about grading).

 

[notdeadyet]

First of all, why would one necessarily have to be foolish not to check whether a prospective schools ranks their students?

Sorry, I'm not talking about prospective schools. I'm talking about the school you attend. I was given a nice packet on my first day that detailed the ranking policies. If I didn't know it, I think I'd've been foolish not to ask.

Some of us just don't care. We plan to do our best,

I plan on doing my best in every class I take. I still ask and care about what I need to pass. See where I'm going with this?

By the way, your school ranks you also, they may just use fewer exams to do it.

I don't go to NYMC. I won't correct you about whether or not you're ranked, because, hey, you probably know your own school better than I. But at my school (and at MANY P/F schools) we are not ranked the first two years. You may love ranking, but set down the kool-aid: it doesn't happen everywhere.

The only situation in which you are not graded and ranked is if no tests are given...

Maybe you're not reading my posts. Let me bold: Tests are given at P/F schools that DO NOT RANK to determine if you P(ass) or F(ail). They are not given for ranking purposes. Sorry. I hate to over-bold, but this doesn't seem to get through. Tests are not given soley for ranking.

Please be careful about speaking for all schools. You probably have a solid handle on the way things are done at NYMC, but that doens't mean they're done the same everywhere. Really. Some schools don't rank the first two years of med school. Some don't rank at all. This is the first time I've seen anyone view this idea as controversial or conspirational. It's just the way things are done at some medical schools.

 

[DemetriMartin]

First of all, why would one necessarily have to be foolish not to check whether a prospective schools ranks their students? Some of us just don't care. We plan to do our best, and we realize that we are entering a profession where our level of knowledge and skill is always going to be evaluated. By the way, your school ranks you also, they may just use fewer exams to do it. The only situation in which you are not graded and ranked is if no tests are given...and even then you may be ranked by more subjective criteria (participation, bed side manner, etc.). If you are going to be a doctor, you are going to be ranked, scrutinized, and evaluated, because if you mess up, THAT will result in litigation (not whether or not the school told you the truth about grading).

you're an idiot.

 

[lemon tree]

 

[QofQuimica]

Folks, let's please keep this discussion civil. It's not necessary to attack other users who disagree with you.

 

[CCLCMer]

Many medical schools grade you on the P/F system, while others do H/HP/P/F or some form of grading. You must keep in mind that regardless of the scale the school uses, all medical schools rank their students. The dean at my med school told us that when it comes time for residency applications, every single medical school provides student rankings to the programs. The only thing that is different at P/F schools is they may not tell you where you are in the class rank until you graduate (if ever). However, after each exam a class histogram will invariably be posted, and you will find out your grades, so you will still have a pretty good idea of how you compare to your classmates. Yes, the person who gets a 90% sees the same P on their transcript as the student who gets a 70%, but the better student will still rank higher in the class. The P/F system does not alleviate competition in med school, contrary to popular belief.

Not true at CCLCM. We don't have exams, so they can't use them to rank us, not even secretly. We don't have any student competition here because there's absolutely nothing to compete for.

First of all, you are completely incorrect about there being a legal liability on this issue. The medical schools don't have any obligation to conform to an evaluation process dictated by the students. Secondly, in general, schools are not lying because they never promise that you are not being ranked. They generally tell you that you will not be given "grades." By the way, there is such a thing as AOA, which takes the top percentage of medical school classes. If there is no ranking going on at a place like Yale (or the other institutions you have mentioned), how would students be evaluated for membership on a level playing field? Finally, in a "P/F" system exams are being given and graded, and you would be incredibly naive to believe that the data from this process is simply being discarded.

We don't have AOA here either. There's no way to pick a top 10% when we have no grades or tests, and it would be pretty stupid to do it even if it were possible because there are only 32 of us per class. There would be three AOA members per class.

I don't know if anyone actually cares any more or is willing to listen to reason, but for the record, CCLCM really is TRUE P/F for the clinical years as well as for the first two years. We don't take tests, we don't get grades, we don't have AOA, and we don't get ranked.

 

[DemetriMartin]

Folks, let's please keep this discussion civil. It's not necessary to attack other users who disagree with you.

i'm sorry but fever is trying to start a conspiracy that all schools rank you even when they explicitly say they don't, and even when they don't have required tests. people shouldn't be allowed to write such blasphemy...

 

[lemon tree]

 

[notdeadyet]

Not true at CCLCM. We don't have exams, so they can't use them to rank us, not even secretly. We don't have any student competition here because there's absolutely nothing to compete for.

The more I've heard about CCLCM, the more impressed I've been. I definitely would have applied had I known more about them back in the day. Sounds like a great school.

 

[CCLCMer]

i'm sorry but fever is trying to start a conspiracy that all schools rank you even when they explicitly say they don't, and even when they don't have required tests. people shouldn't be allowed to write such blasphemy...

This is the internet, people write all kinds of stupid things. But if you go around calling people idiots on SDN, the mods will post hold your account or ban you as a troll and you'll come out the loser. It's not worth it, man.

 

[CCLCMer]

The more I've heard about CCLCM, the more impressed I've been. I definitely would have applied had I known more about them back in the day. Sounds like a great school.

I've never gone to med school anywhere else, so I have a limited basis to compare, and there are definitely downsides here like there are at every school. We have weekly homework essay questions that we have to do since we don't take tests, and they get to be a drag sometimes. (The homework essays we have to do don't get grades either, just comments from the faculty!) But I think CCLCM is pretty awesome on the whole, especially for people who want to do medical research and don't want to do a whole MD/PhD. I'm still glad I decided to come here.

 

[fever106]

you're an idiot.

First of all, I have never resorted to personal attacks. Just because I disagree with some of these posters, does not mean that the discussion can't remain civil. Calling me an idiot is not only incredibly inappropriate and nasty, but extremely immature. If you keep it up, you will be banned from this website.

And as for CCLMC,
I plainly stated that a school that does not give tests can't really rank its student. I assume that since there are only 32 people in the class, they must find other ways to keep a close eye on how you guys are performing. I just have to ask (and I am not implying that CCLMC students do poorly), how do students prepare for the step 1 if they are never tested on the material from the basic science years?

 

[SigurRos]

wow, all I wanted to do was compile a list of true P/F unranked schools and this is what happens....

 

[notdeadyet]

wow, all I wanted to do was compile a list of true P/F unranked schools and this is what happens....

Yeah, I didn't think that their existence would be called into question.

For something like this, the AAMC site is great for finding who uses what grading system (as in P/F, ABCDF, etc.). But once you start getting interview offers, I'd contact schools individually to find out whether or not they do ranking and when. Immediately, beginning in third year, or not at all are the three most common answers to the latter.

Grading system isn't as big a factor to school culture as ranking is. P/F schools can be just as competitive and cutthroat as a hyper-ABCDF school if you use rankings right away. The ranking issue is a bigger one.

I wouldn't trust SDN on something like this to make the call. The schools will tell you outright and asking admissions prior to the interview and students during will clear it up. You'll get some criminally bad info on SDN, so I wouldn't rely on it too strongly.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

For everyone obsessing about basic science pass/fail, don't.

Basic science grades to a residency director are either three categories
A) Obviously struggled
B) Passed
C) Did incredible.

80% of students fall in B. They might have scattered high passes, or a marginal pass or honor, but it doesn't really mater in the long scheme of thing. 10% are A with many obvious repeats and retakes. 10% are C, having many more honors than passes so much so the director takes notice. The question is, how important is having C? I think not very much at all. It's not strong enough to stand alone if you've got bad Step 1 and clinical, and if you've got good step one and clinical grades, it's just icing on the cake.

Since preclinicals don't matter that much, class rank pretty much is the same thing. Unless you're on either extreme, nobody really takes much notice. Is there really much difference between number 67 out of 150 and number 82? Not really. Some schools do do the quartile/quintile thing, but once again, I think that pales compared to board exams and clinical grades.

So, really, premeds obsess a lot over how preclinicals are graded, but it's not that big of a deal. If you're compulsive enough to research this stuff, yoiu're compulsive enough to bust your freaking hump in any system (whether it be true p/f, kinda p/f, h/p/f, a/b/c/d/f or whatever). And doing well on what really matters (Step 1 and clinicals, do I sound like a broken record yet?) requires hard work the first years anyway, so just do your best.

 

[notdeadyet]

So, really, premeds obsess a lot over how preclinicals are graded, but it's not that big of a deal. If you're compulsive enough to research this stuff, yoiu're compulsive enough to bust your freaking hump in any system (whether it be true p/f, kinda p/f, h/p/f, a/b/c/d/f or whatever). And doing well on what really matters (Step 1 and clinicals, do I sound like a broken record yet?) requires hard work the first years anyway, so just do your best.

Good advice about focusing on doing well on your step 1 and clinicial clerkships. Performance in 1st/2nd year isn't that importance.

The only reason why I'd be curious if a school uses ranking or not during the first two years is one of collaboration vs. competition. I'm sure a lot of schools that use ranking have a great collaborative environment, but the one thing I've noticed is this: for all the complaining from med students about how cut-throat their med school is, it always comes from folks in ranked environments.

But hey, to each their own.

 

[owenmichael]

Back to the point:
- Some schools say they are Pass/Fail but still end up ranking you

- BUT, there are some schools that are TRUE pass/fail and DO NOT RANK.

The three that I can think of are:
1) Yale
2) Mayo
3) Stanford?

Sorry Fever106... I'm not sure what your "deans" sources are. But I get the feeling the people citing what their schools grading policy are based on what their administration (i.e. their dean) has told them and is more accurate.

 

[notdeadyet]

You can add UC Davis to that list.