Two questions in one about MATH for MCAT takers, medical students and premeds

[Angie_MD]

Hey guys!
So my first question is, are all physicians great at MATH? I ask this because my weakest area is math how ever it has progressed because of consistent practice, I have been a vet tech now for about two years and my job consists of dosage calculations which I don't have a problem with at all, converting units and what not, but sometimes I get super discouraged at times, so I just need to know are all physicians naturally great at math and are most of you great at math? Second question is , how calculated is the physics section of the test and would I have to memorize all of the equations involved in physics as a whole? For those who have taken the MCAT already

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[claduva94]

As you don't get a calculator, the math is reasonably simple. But be prepared to do back of the calculations. A sample question you could be asked to do is calculating how long it would take light to travel through a block with a width of x and a refractive index of y. You don't need to memorize all the equations but you need to know a fair share (kinetic energy, potential energy, kinematics, etc.)

 

[jd989898]

Most physicians are not very good at math. Obviously better than the average person, but the majority got an A or B in an introductory calculus course for freshman and stopped there with the math classes. A lot of them probably couldn't even tell you the meaning of a derivative.

 

[TheStudyOfLife]

The physics on the MCAT isn't anything more than algebra based. As far as calculus goes, it's a subject that comes to some easily but others it looks Chinese. I personally love calculus.

 

[Ismet]

Lol no, most physicians are not good at math. The board exams even have a calculator feature because doing math by hand is a waste of time.

 

[allantois]

Based on my observations most med students (and doctors) have a trouble calculating BMI with a calculator as they need an app for that

 

[Mad Jack]

I suck at math and did well on the MCAT. The math is really simple, you generally just have to know what the first three digits will roughly be of any final calculation and what power of ten the answer should be to. It's more about process of elimination than it is about real math skills.

 

[claduva94]

Honestly you should just take practice exams. Then you will know exactly what you need to be able to do.

 

[baconcures]

Math is my weakest area of life. HATE it with a passion and I think it really brought me down on the MCAT :/ Practice your basic math and conversion skillz profusely.
But based on my observations so far, you don't really have to be good at math to be a good physician.

 

[Angie_MD]

Thanks everyone! This really helps!

 

[Mad Jack]

Once you're actually in medical school, there is very, very little math involved from what I gather. For most of the difficult stuff, there are specialized medical apps that will run the numbers for you.

 

[GFP]

You will need to memorize a good amount of equations on the MCAT, but not all. A decent MCAT prep book should provide you with the basic equations you will need to know. Sometimes the MCAT will introduce a bizarre/never encountered concept and they will give you the formula(s). You should have a strong grasp on deriving and re-arranging equations.

Calculations on the MCAT are algebra-based. I would start learning not to rely so much on the calculator. Also, since you will not have a calculator, the math on the MCAT is all about guesstimation. For example: how do you calculate 11/2? Well, you know that 10/2=5 and 12/2=6, so 11/2 is somewhere in between 5 and 6, so you pick the appropriate answer among the other choices.

I highly recommend getting TBR Physics and Chemistry for the MCAT. They have really cool math tricks and shortcuts.

 

[Angie_MD]

You will need to memorize a good amount of equations on the MCAT, but not all. A decent MCAT prep book should provide you with the basic equations you will need to know. Sometimes the MCAT will introduce a bizarre/never encountered concept and they will give you the formula(s). You should have a strong grasp on deriving and re-arranging equations.

Calculations on the MCAT are algebra-based. I would start learning not to rely so much on the calculator. Also, since you will not have a calculator, the math on the MCAT is all about guesstimation. For example: how do you calculate 11/2? Well, you know that 10/2=5 and 12/2=6, so 11/2 is somewhere in between 5 and 6, so you pick the appropriate answer among the other choices.

I highly recommend getting TBR Physics and Chemistry for the MCAT. They have really cool math tricks and shortcuts.

TBR is Princeton review? That's what I have now... Or is that Kaplan?

 

[Angie_MD]

Once you're actually in medical school, there is very, very little math involved from what I gather. For most of the difficult stuff, there are specialized medical apps that will run the numbers for you.

I'm extremely relieved by this lol thanks!

 

[claduva94]

TBR is Princeton review? That's what I have now... Or is that Kaplan?

The Berkeley Review

 

[Aerus]

Most premeds I know are not good at math.

 

[Mad Jack]

TBR Chemistry and Physics are worth their weight in gold if you want to do well on the MCAT- they're not just recommended, but IMO completely essential if you want to self-study. Their bio is a bit much, IMO, but I had a strong bio background, and their verbal really wasn't to my liking. I'd go with EK bio, orgo, and verbal personally (these are the exact books I used to get a 35).

 

[G_Marker]

I've always felt that there are very few people who are particularly good or bad at math.

Most are in-between and have to work hard to do well. It annoys me a little when people tell me that they're 'bad at math.' In my experience, those people were the ones that A) didn't study or B) didn't approach math with the right confidence/positive attitude, letting something new be intimidating and over-complicating relatively simple concepts.

Being good at math doesn't have a whole lot to do with being a good doctor. But having a good attitude about challenging subjects might.

Sorry OP for being a bit in-your-face preachy about this topic. As someone who has been told by learning professionals that I am/should be 'bad at math' yet has succeeded in math anyway, I feel somewhat entitled to an opinion on this. I'm not actually very angry or annoyed (which is hard to convey in writing without outright saying). I just wanted to give my two cents.

 

[Avicenna]

Most physicians are not very good at math. Obviously better than the average person, but the majority got an A or B in an introductory calculus course for freshman and stopped there with the math classes. A lot of them probably couldn't even tell you the meaning of a derivative.

Bull****

 

[Angie_MD]

Bull****

Why do you say bull***? Is that not true?

 

[claduva94]

Why do you say bull***? Is that not true?

Probably not the derivative part.

 

[jd989898]

Probably not the derivative part.

Bull****

Lol. I would literally bet my life than <50% of practicing physicians in the US could accurately explain the meaning of a derivative. I would guess the number is somewhere around 10-15%.

 

[claduva94]

Lol. I would literally bet my life than <50% of practicing physicians in the US could accurately explain the meaning of a derivative. I would guess the number is somewhere around 10-15%.

I disagree. I think the vast majority of physicians take calculus at some point. I think most physicians are intelligent enough to remember what it is. Now being able to take a derivative, that may be another story.

 

[deleted407021]

With the addition of biochem, I'm guessing enzyme kinetics will be on there as well.

 

[Goro]

No

So my first question is, are all physicians great at MATH?

 

[Doctor Strange]

It certainly doesn't hurt to be familiar with major mathematical concepts. I died a little inside when we were talking about pharmacokinetics and everyone around me was caught up on trying to figure out what the lecturer meant by a "semi-log plot".

 

[Aerus]

Lol. I would literally bet my life than <50% of practicing physicians in the US could accurately explain the meaning of a derivative. I would guess the number is somewhere around 10-15%.

While we are now living in the age where statistics is more useful than calculus in the field of medicine and the math requirement isn't as strict anymore, I remember that a year of math (usually calculus 1 and 2) were required at some point, so your claim is just ridiculous. If only 10-15% of physicians who all took a year of calculus are not able to explain the meaning of a derivative, I'm sure the % of the general population who took a year of calculus is even lower.

 

[Conflagration]

I don't understand people who are really good at physics that suck with calculus.

When you think about it, Newton discovered his feet called physics, and then he knitted socks called calculus to keep them warm. They were made by the same broski. (With mostly cosmetic additions from Leibniz and truthfully Leibniz published his junk 14 years later, so I don't necessarily buy that they discovered it independently, but n=1)

Honestly, as long as you can understand that a derivative is a slope at that particular point, and the integral is an area enclosed by a line and the limits set, you're golden.

Continuing from that, extrema are easily explained because, when you take a derivative, the points where the derivative is zero is where that slope changes direction. It's sort of like a roller coaster; you don't just "poof" from above mid-level to below mid-level. You had to cross the middle at some point.

If SDN peeps need explanations of math concepts, I have a roomy inbox.

 

[allantois]

I don't understand people who are really good at physics that suck with calculus.

When you think about it, Newton discovered his feet called physics, and then he knitted socks called calculus to keep them warm. They were made by the same broski. (With mostly cosmetic additions from Leibniz and truthfully Leibniz published his junk 14 years later, so I don't necessarily buy that they discovered it independently, but n=1)

Honestly, as long as you can understand that a derivative is a slope at that particular point, and the integral is an area enclosed by a line and the limits set, you're golden.

Continuing from that, extrema are easily explained because, when you take a derivative, the points where the derivative is zero is where that slope changes direction. It's sort of like a roller coaster; you don't just "poof" from above mid-level to below mid-level. You had to cross the middle at some point.

If SDN peeps need explanations of math concepts, I have a roomy inbox.

Algebra (and Trig) based Physics.

There's also Algebra based Calculus for life science majors.

 

[clairephillips]

I don't believe all physicians are necessarily good in math, but you have to be able to do and understand calculations to some extent. You'll have to take either calculus or statistics as a prerequisite to medical school, you'll use a great deal of algebra in chemistry, you'll use either calculus or algebra in physics (algebra based is what is on the MCAT, so unless your degree requires calculus based, just take that one - it will help you more), and then you'll need to be able to do simple calculations using rounding and multiplying/dividing exponents for the MCAT. Most of us so called "math haters" can still DO math, unless you have a learning disability - my sister has severe dyscalculia and she (as LizzyM says) "went pro in something other than medicine." She didn't want to be a doctor anyway, though, and is flourishing as the graduate director of a writing center while in an English lit Masters' program atm, so we don't all end up needing the same tools in our toolbox. :-D Anyway, good luck and don't worry!

 

[Conflagration]

Algebra (and Trig) based Physics.

There's also Algebra based Calculus for life science majors.

Yes, but a lot of those formulas are much easier to explain when you make the connection that "the trig you've been doing is not only unnecessary, but the calculus for it is so much easier". Truthfully, the trig doesn't come that much easier to people in my experience either. But, again, n=1.

 

[jd989898]

While we are now living in the age where statistics is more useful than calculus in the field of medicine and the math requirement isn't as strict anymore, I remember that a year of math (usually calculus 1 and 2) were required at some point, so your claim is just ridiculous. If only 10-15% of physicians who all took a year of calculus are not able to explain the meaning of a derivative, I'm sure the % of the general population who took a year of calculus is even lower.

It is.

I don't think you realize how little the average person actually takes away from school, especially math classes. Almost everyone has taken at least one history class before, but how many people could actually explain why we celebrate independence day? Probably less than 50%.

 

[claduva94]

It is.

I don't think you realize how little the average person actually takes away from school, especially math classes. Almost everyone has taken at least one history class before, but how many people could actually explain why we celebrate independence day? Probably less than 50%.

Yes put the population of physicians probably are better informed. Especially about something as elementary as derivatives.

 

[allantois]

It is.

I don't think you realize how little the average person actually takes away from school, especially math classes. Almost everyone has taken at least one history class before, but how many people could actually explain why we celebrate independence day? Probably less than 50%.

That brings me here:

25% of people in America don't know that Earth orbits the Sun.
http://time.com/7809/1-in-4-americans-thinks-sun-orbits-earth/

 

[jd989898]

Yes put the population of physicians probably are better informed. Especially about something as elementary as derivatives.

I just asked my dad (a doctor) what percentage of physicians he thinks could articulate what a derivative is. He didn't even have a guess at what it was and laughed at the question. Most physicians haven't even looked at a mathematical function for several years. If you think 1-2 introductory freshman courses are enough to solidify the basic ideas of calculus in the minds of even the most academically gifted for years/decades to come, I would say you're being far too generous. Most simply remember clinically relevant material. My 10-15% estimate was probably on the high end, actually.

 

[kraskadva]

Lol. I would literally bet my life than <50% of practicing physicians in the US could accurately explain the meaning of a derivative. I would guess the number is somewhere around 10-15%.

so, n=1, but...
my dad, who's a practicing physician and was a chem/math double major, was less than helpful growing up. When I'd ask for HW help he'd always say "are you to differential equations yet? come back when you're doing differential calculus" suuper annoying...
Anyway, I finally got to differential calculus, got stuck on some hw, and thought 'hey, I'll call dad'. After about a 5 minute conversation, he had to admit that he didn't remember any of it (beyond the very basics he needed for practice).
From others I've talked to, I get the feeling that this isn't uncommon. You might need it for college/MCATs/getting into med school, but once you're there it flies out the window to be replaced with more immediately useful information.

 

[Doudline]

Yes, but a lot of those formulas are much easier to explain when you make the connection that "the trig you've been doing is not only unnecessary, but the calculus for it is so much easier". Truthfully, the trig doesn't come that much easier to people in my experience either. But, again, n=1.

The integrals obtained through Gauss' theorem in E&M are often so complicated that they make the method useless. I consider myself as very competent at calculus, but it was simply ridiculous at times (and resolving the integral takes longer than using more bastardized methods).

 

[Conflagration]

The integrals obtained through Gauss' theorem in E&M are often so complicated that they make the method useless. I consider myself as very competent at calculus, but it was simply ridiculous at times (and resolving the integral takes longer than using more bastardized methods).

Well, in that particular instance, Electricity and Magnetism were both unheard of. Newton would have never have been able to predict that his scientific discipline would expand to that level. It would take Gauss and later mathematicians to still make calculus pertinent.

I'm not saying calculus is perfect, as it was knitted socks for feet. Newton would be baffled at what we do with his math and science now. For example, Newton's methods for finding roots and minima are clunky and difficult compared to Cardano's Cubic formula and our later discoveries.

 

[KnuxNole]

I remember derivative is "that thing I did in that calc class.". I don't know what it means, WHY people do, or even how to do that ****. Thankfully, in med school the math involved can be done with the same calculator a kindergarden kid uses

And oh god statistics. One of the hardest classes in basic sciences....that was Russian to me! I don't ever use stats in my life other than on the Step exams, which is very good!

 

[Lawpy]

Lol no, most physicians are not good at math. The board exams even have a calculator feature because doing math by hand is a waste of time.

And yet the MCAT demands us to do our calculations by hand #consistency #logic

 

[ridethecliche]

I think you need to sit down with the MCAT Topic list from the AAMC and just start doing review.

Yes, you need to know the formulas and how to manipulate them since it saves a lot of time.

TBR is very good for PS and BS. I retook a 30 and got a 34, mostly thanks to TBR. I went up a point in PS/BS each because of better prep.

 

[Ismet]

And yet the MCAT demands us to do our calculations by hand #consistency #logic

They make the math on the MCAT easy. Also I only used the calculator feature once out of 322 questions on Step 1. There's a very small number of formulas you need to know for Step.

 

[ridethecliche]

No offense, but you've started a lot of threads recently. I think you need to use the search function and read a bit.

 

[Angie_MD]

No offense, but you've started a lot of threads recently. I think you need to use the search function and read a bit.

None takin however when your always on the go like me you don't ever really have time to search for answers, I work 12 hrs shifts daily as a vet tech but thanks

 

[ridethecliche]

Believe it or not, a lot of the questions that you've asked have already been answered. If you can start a thread, you can do a search.

 

[FutureOncologist]

Can you memorize equations if you just sit down one night and focus on them? Yes? You're good.

 

[ridethecliche]

I understand the rationale behind your suggestion, but I feel like forums would be a pretty boring place if people only ever asked a question once on the forum and then never asked that particular question again.

Sure that would end the circuitous arguments on here, but these are so easily answerable by looking at AAMC guides and actually looking at some practice material that it comes off as silly. Mostly it's because it's the same person though. No hard feelings to the OP, but crowdsourcing decisions on SDN isn't really the best bet haha.