UC Denver vs UMinn vs UofUtah

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LucAlb

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Hi All,

First of all, thanks for all the help and advice for the past year or so. This place has been a godsend for me during this application season. With this cycle winding down, I now face a potentially life changing decision before me in choosing which pharm school to go to, and was wondering if its still possible to get some last ditch help and advice before the whole thing ends.

I have finally narrowed it down to three schools I believe would give me a good education. They are as mentioned in the title: University of Colorado at Denver, University of Utah, and University of Minnesota. Full disclosure: I currently live in California and have lived here all my life, so this will be the first time I will go out of state for an extended period of time. I have very little to no exposure to those above three states, save for the (very) brief one day tours I’ve had for interviews, which is not enough. Out of the top of my head fro, I can think of the various strengths and drawbacks each school has from talking with students during interviews:


UC Denver: out of state ~33K per year plus fees, ~140-150K over 4 yrs
In state: ~21K per year plus fees, ~80-90K over 4 years
(+) =
Very good city to live in. “Most sunny days” in America. Excellent outdoors
New renovated, expanded campus
Stresses clinical collaboration with other healthcare professionals like nurses, doctors, etc.
Team based learning
Out of state tuition can be remedied by deferring admissions
(-)=
Despite Denver’s quality, Anschutz campus considered unsafe
Maybe rumors, but heard school still overemphasizes retail aspects
Lowest “ranked” of the three, 23rd according to US News
If I don’t live in Colorado prior to entering the class, aka no deferring, no chance to get in state tuition
Entry classes staffed by unenthusiastic faculty


UMinn: out of state ~36K per year, ~150-160 K over 4 yrs
(+)=
Ranked top 3rd in nation, US News
Great, livable city to be in. Active college town atmosphere
High emphasis on clinical aspects and patient/drug management
“Progressive” state, internships ostensibly less about drug counting and more about therapy and consultations
(-)=
City and state still stuck in the last Ice Age
0% chance to obtain in state tuition, since I did not live in Minn. for familial reasons prior to entering school.


UofUtah: out of state ~37-38K per year, ~160-170K over 4 yrs
in state ~20K per year, ~80-90 K over 4 yrs
(+)=
Its Mormon town, so very safe, very stable. Great outdoors
Good clinical emphasis
Relatively straightforward to become a state resident, need only ~1 year.
If able to receive in state status, tuition lowest compared w/ UC Denver, UMinn
Close to California
(-):
Its Mormon town, so very boring and staid.
If unable to receive in state status, tuition is highest of all three (!)
Grumblings and worries about USN South Jordan opening and saturating already tight area
Campus a bit old and decrepit


Nonetheless, I have still have alot of questions remaining. I narrowed it down to these four:

1. The most pressing matter for me is tuition and debt. I understand all three will be expensive, but there's still a large gradient from UMinn to Uof Utah. Which of these schools, relative to their out of state tuition and regardless of how high/ low it is, would give me the most bang per buck?

2. Which school has the highest post grad residency placement rates? I ask this because I have been unable to find those stats online

3. I have heard interning during pharmacy school have progressively gotten more difficult due to market saturation, not to mention getting jobs after graduation. Which of the three schools currently have the least market saturation?
I understand the good days are over, but would still prefer one where getting a position isn't impossible.

4. Which of the three schools have the best alumni networks? I heard personal connections are vital, so that's why I'm asking


Since I'm out of state for all three, I have little exposure to them other than a limited interview. I am truly torn between these three and would greatly appreciate any help or advice that could help break my current deadlock.



Thanks!

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1. The most pressing matter for me is tuition and debt. I understand all three will be expensive, but there's still a large gradient from UMinn to Uof Utah. Which of these schools, relative to their out of state tuition and regardless of how high/ low it is, would give me the most bang per buck?

2. Which school has the highest post grad residency placement rates? I ask this because I have been unable to find those stats online

3. I have heard interning during pharmacy school have progressively gotten more difficult due to market saturation, not to mention getting jobs after graduation. Which of the three schools currently have the least market saturation?
I understand the good days are over, but would still prefer one where getting a position isn't impossible.

4. Which of the three schools have the best alumni networks? I heard personal connections are vital, so that's why I'm asking


Since I'm out of state for all three, I have little exposure to them other than a limited interview. I am truly torn between these three and would greatly appreciate any help or advice that could help break my current deadlock.



Thanks!
I don't have most of these answers, but I really think you should ask the admissions team about some of these, specifically #2, and possibly #3 and 4. Granted, it's their job to sell you on the program, but they should be able to be honest with you, too.

You might also check out the Pharmacy Manpower chart: http://www.pharmacymanpower.com/state.html

For what it's worth, I've lived in both SLC and MN. I *loved* SLC, the great outdoor opportunities, and many of the people I met, but when you start venturing off campus, it can be really conservative in many points of view. This is sometimes a bit closeted when you first arrive; it took me a few months to appreciate just how conservative the heart of the state really is. For example, it could sometimes be very hard to find dates in Salt Lake if you have never been a part of the Mormon church...there is a definite bias against "gentiles", sometimes even in employment situations. You may have to learn what to say and what not to say. Granted, this is based on my own experience in the early 2000s, but I don't expect it's a whole lot different now. For example, check out this story: http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4...based-on-Religion/YMgdkqe9HU-Gy3mcZS7Azg.cspx ; this was an issue I saw come up often for people coming from out of state for reasons other than religion.

I like MN quite a bit, but the winters can be pretty terrible. But we have great people out here! :) But you're right, tuition's pretty high (and may be higher next year).
 
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University of Utah had 19/21 students match for residency. :thumbup:
 
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Pharmschooler,

Thanks for that explanation. Do you know if there are any particular big no nos in conversation/lifestyle one should be aware of when working and living in SLC?

rXCmoney,

Wow, that is very high, considering that the class size is only ~60 people or so. I hope that means they really prepare their students well.
 
Pharmschooler,

Thanks for that explanation. Do you know if there are any particular big no nos in conversation/lifestyle one should be aware of when working and living in SLC?
I wouldn't ever publicly discuss drinking or going out, religion, politics, or dating in Utah. These are probably topics best avoided anywhere, but especially so in Utah.

Don't plan on living with anybody while unwed; it's pretty frowned upon and the community is small enough that others will know and word will get around. If you really want to keep them guessing (as to your religious persuasion), give up the coffee and tea. These are dead giveaways for most people that scream "non-Mormon here!". It's not as though everybody's incredibly conservative, but you don't want to offend anybody by accident, especially when that somebody could be a potential contact for a job later on. It can be a bit insular. You just don't want to give anybody any ammunition to use against you.

Your best bet is to live like those around you; it wouldn't be bad to practice living a Mormon lifestyle even if you aren't one. Don't plan on doing anything on Sunday either, other than studying. Seriously...it seemed people didn't even drive on Sundays when I was there.
 
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Pharmschooler,

Thanks for that explanation. Do you know if there are any particular big no nos in conversation/lifestyle one should be aware of when working and living in SLC?

rXCmoney,

Wow, that is very high, considering that the class size is only ~60 people or so. I hope that means they really prepare their students well.

Yeah, they just recently increased the class size to 60. There are only 45 students in the class that had 19/21 match, so you definitely have a good chance at landing a residency.

I wouldn't ever publicly discuss drinking or going out, religion, politics, or dating in Utah. These are probably topics best avoided anywhere, but especially so in Utah.

Don't plan on living with anybody while unwed; it's pretty frowned upon and the community is small enough that others will know and word will get around. If you really want to keep them guessing (as to your religious persuasion), give up the coffee and tea. These are dead giveaways for most people that scream "non-Mormon here!". It's not as though everybody's incredibly conservative, but you don't want to offend anybody by accident, especially when that somebody could be a potential contact for a job later on. It can be a bit insular. You just don't want to give anybody any ammunition to use against you.

Your best bet is to live like those around you; it wouldn't be bad to practice living a Mormon lifestyle even if you aren't one. Don't plan on doing anything on Sunday either, other than studying. Seriously...it seemed people didn't even drive on Sundays when I was there.


Hah well I think you're being a tad bit dramatic. Where did you live when you were in Utah out of curiosity?
 
Hah well I think you're being a tad bit dramatic. Where did you live when you were in Utah out of curiosity?
I'm overemphasizing, but I really don't think by that much -- if I were to move back there today, that's how I'd act. The U is the little island in the city where people don't care as much, but once you venture outside the U and the ski resorts and a select few spots in town (33rd and 33rd, 15th and 15th...), life is very different. I was in SLC.

The other thing to keep in mind is that you're going to school with the intention of gaining employment. Your references will come from practicing pharmacists, not your classmates or your professors, most likely. You'll probably meet a lot of devout pharmacists, or at least pharmacists who go with the grain in order to keep their customers happy. A lot of business in Utah acts the "LDS way" so the customers keep coming. If you make it apparent your employees or your business is not run by LDS members, the customers will probably look for a different place to buy their goods. So business owners (and I suspect community pharmacies) will often act as though they're Mormon-run to keep up appearances, whether they are or not. It's sort of an unspoken expectation. Just some thoughts to keep in the back of your mind.
 
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Come to think of it, since it seems both of you have lived in Utah, do you guys know how easy (or hard) is the process to establish and receive in state residency and tuition? I've heard its generally smooth and uncomplicated, but since its a huge part of my decision process I just want to make sure.
 
Come to think of it, since it seems both of you have lived in Utah, do you guys know how easy (or hard) is the process to establish and receive in state residency and tuition? I've heard its generally smooth and uncomplicated, but since its a huge part of my decision process I just want to make sure.
Should be easy, so long as they don't change the rules on you (it's happened before). Get your driver's license, voting registration, and bank account lined up right away. Don't leave for longer than a week at a time for 12 months (or is it 18?). Those were the rules, last I remembered.
 
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I thought you actually could get residency at UC-Denver? I seem to recall that being a possibility.

I thought that the people at Anschutz were extremely friendly. Not only that but to be able to learn on a campus that is entirely state-of-the-art is awesome! No flooding risks with chemical stations and no exploding bunsen burners! Woohoo!

Rankings are just... rankings. Minnesota might be a "top-ranked" school, but if it's environment doesn't suit you, why choose that school? Same with Utah and your comment about the town being very boring. You won't be studying all the time, so why live in a place where "fun" is going to temple? :idea:
 
I thought you actually could get residency at UC-Denver? I seem to recall that being a possibility.

I thought that the people at Anschutz were extremely friendly. Not only that but to be able to learn on a campus that is entirely state-of-the-art is awesome! No flooding risks with chemical stations and no exploding bunsen burners! Woohoo!

Rankings are just... rankings. Minnesota might be a "top-ranked" school, but if it's environment doesn't suit you, why choose that school? Same with Utah and your comment about the town being very boring. You won't be studying all the time, so why live in a place where "fun" is going to temple? :idea:

Yes, it is possible for me to get Colorado residency, but its only relevant to tuition purposes if and only if I stayed in that state at least a year before school starts. Not after. Which means if I want to take advantage of in state tuition, I may have to defer my admissions for a year and move there and work during that time, and then apply for in state residency. I am open to this possibility but am not too thrilled about it.

At least, that's what I heard (I hope I'm wrong)

Man this decision process is complicated. :scared:
 
The other thing to keep in mind is that you're going to school with the intention of gaining employment. Your references will come from practicing pharmacists, not your classmates or your professors, most likely. You'll probably meet a lot of devout pharmacists, or at least pharmacists who go with the grain in order to keep their customers happy. A lot of business in Utah acts the "LDS way" so the customers keep coming. If you make it apparent your employees or your business is not run by LDS members, the customers will probably look for a different place to buy their goods. So business owners (and I suspect community pharmacies) will often act as though they're Mormon-run to keep up appearances, whether they are or not. It's sort of an unspoken expectation. Just some thoughts to keep in the back of your mind.

Pharmschooler,

In terms of conforming to a "Mormon" lifestyle, does that, uh, mean I have to pretend if not outright lie, about being a Mormon? Do they ask this question about your religious affiliation openly and often?
 
I know and agree with the importance of tuition, but why delay yourself for an entire year just to save ~50k but possibly have issues finding a job/surviving during that time? I am just playing devil's advocate and honestly, unless you have a hell of a job lined up, it could take you a while to find a decent position and actually come out ahead after a year.
 
Pharmschooler,

In terms of conforming to a "Mormon" lifestyle, does that, uh, mean I have to pretend if not outright lie, about being a Mormon? Do they ask this question about your religious affiliation openly and often?

Never lie. It won't be brought up because that would be outright discrimination. I'd just act like a Mormon; don't drink in public, if at all, don't live with somebody before marriage, ditch the coffee and tea and keep the facial hair off your face. People will make the assumption that either you're Mormon or that you're just a "good person." Either would work in your favor, most likely.
 
Its two days from the UMinn deadline, and I'm closer to a final decision, but not quite there yet....

Any last advice or opinions?
 
Utah if you want to do a residency. (19/21 matched) almost half the class did residency
- cheap tuition
- brand new facility
- low class size
- 0% attrition
Residency sites: (UofU hospital, several IHC hospitals, primary children's, Huntsman Cancer institute, VA, etc....)

Anyway, congrats on having many options! Good luck with your decision!
 
I'd choose the one that will be least expensive for you to attend (remember to calculate in airfare costs to get back home if you plan on going back now and then). All the colleges mentioned seem like good choices where you could receive a quality education as a pharmacist.
 
Utah if you want to do a residency. (19/21 matched) almost half the class did residency
- cheap tuition
- brand new facility
- low class size
- 0% attrition
Residency sites: (UofU hospital, several IHC hospitals, primary children's, Huntsman Cancer institute, VA, etc....)

Anyway, congrats on having many options! Good luck with your decision!

Thanks! How hard/easy was to find a internship during school for you?
 
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