UCSD MSTP vs. UCLA MSTP vs. UCSF MD-only Neuroscience

[calibear54]

Hi All,

I am fortunate enough to have some great choices for programs. I would like advice on what school to choose because it is a very difficult decision. Some things to consider about my background are that I would like to study neuroscience, and I also have a partner who is in the tech industry who would need to get a job in whatever location we end up.


UCSD MSTP

Probably my top choice right now. They have excellent neuroscience (close to #1 in the country) and I liked the feel of the program the best out of all of my interviews.


Pros:
-Great neuroscience

-seemed very fun and laidback at interviews

-SD is beautiful and less traffic than LA

-guaranteed housing that is cheap compared to my other choices and the surrounding area

-seemed to promote good work life balance at interview (maybe this is an illusion?)

Cons:
-not as much tech (mainly Qualcomm and biotech) so my partner might have trouble finding a job he likes

-slightly less med school prestige (but still top 15 so not a big deal)

-not as diverse


UCLA MSTP

Pros:
-Very prestigious and great name recognition for residency

-probably had second best time here at interviews, but MSTP students seemed a bit more serious and less fun than at UCSD

-LA is very diverse

-There are a ton of tech companies so my SO would have more options for getting a job he loves


Cons:
-not as good neuroscience as UCSD, although their behavioral neuroscience is highly ranked

-seemed not to encourage work-life balance as much (something important to me because I might have kids during my training)

-partner housing is farther from campus than SD, more expensive and only guaranteed for two years

-traffic


UCSF

Pros
-Best of the best for research and primary care, lots of opportunities and open doors

-really like school energy and philosophy as far as social justice orientation and wanting to make the world a better place while also doing really cutting edge science

-San Francisco is the mecca of the tech industry and my SO would probably find the job he most loves here (if we had to choose purely on location, he would like here the most)

-I could apply for internal admissions to MSTP


Cons
-great neuroscience but not as many labs I am interested in (many more are at LA and SD)

-not MSTP, so it’s a huge risk and will be more stress on me

-didn’t seem to have as good work-life balance

-expensive housing and everything

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[Fencer]

It is likely that your partner will find a job in all three cities. You will be going there for ~8 years, if MSTP. It seems that stress, work-life balance, and kids are important to you. From the standpoint of residency, you could do find coming out from any of those places but you seems that you will enjoy UCSD the most... my $ 0.02 cents.

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

UCSF. Any other school, I would not turn down an MSTP offer.

 

[gutonc]

UCSD FTW.

 

[calibear54]

It is likely that your partner will find a job in all three cities. You will be going there for ~8 years, if MSTP. It seems that stress, work-life balance, and kids are important to you. From the standpoint of residency, you could do find coming out from any of those places but you seems that you will enjoy UCSD the most... my $ 0.02 cents.

Thanks for replying, Fencer! Yes, I want to work hard and be an excellent physician-scientist, but also be able to have a family. I hope I can find a place where I can happily do that (most of the time).

UCSF. Any other school, I would not turn down an MSTP offer.

Thanks for your response. I know UCSF is amazing for medical school. But UCSD is top-ranked in my chosen PhD field, so that might balance out? Care to elaborate on why UCSF?

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

Thanks for replying, Fencer! Yes, I want to work hard and be an excellent physician-scientist, but also be able to have a family. I hope I can find a place where I can happily do that (most of the time).



Thanks for your response. I know UCSF is amazing for medical school. But UCSD is top-ranked in my chosen PhD field, so that might balance out? Care to elaborate on why UCSF?

The thing nobody tells you at this stage is there is a huge difference in match outcomes between the elite top schools and the top 15-20 programs. Not to say you could not be tremendously successful at any programs, but if you take an applicant from UCSF, HMS, they will have certainly of matching at a top program in their specialty regardless of Step 1, pubs, etc. Take the sure thing.

 

[Neuronix]

The thing nobody tells you at this stage is there is a huge difference in match outcomes between the elite top schools and the top 15-20 programs.

Subjectively, that is not true. Residency programs do have a tradition of taking their own med students (mostly because their own med students would almost die to stay there), and top med schools tend to (but certainly not always) have top residencies. Outside of that, the effect is not that significant.

Not to say you could not be tremendously successful at any programs, but if you take an applicant from UCSF, HMS, they will have certainly of matching at a top program in their specialty regardless of Step 1, pubs, etc. Take the sure thing.

That is completely incorrect. How many times do I have to post on here about 4 people from a top-5 MSTP not matching in a single year? You are very, very mistaken.

 

[Fencer]

This is a long program. As a Neurologist/Neuroscientist, there is no significant difference in neuroscience graduates from those 3 schools. The most important factors are: 1) research productivity during your PhD, 2) step 1 score, and 3) IM/Neurology (or Surgery/NSU) clerkship performance & letters. Go where you will be happiest. The road is already full of hazards and bumps...

 

[phonyreal98]

Put me down as another vote for UCSD. Congratulations!

 

[calibear54]

I want to specialize in Psychiatry, if that helps.

All the feedback is very appreciated. Thank you!

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

I want to specialize in Psychiatry, if that helps.

All the feedback is very appreciated. Thank you!

Based on that information, it won't make difference where you attend.

 

[solitude]

That is completely incorrect. How many times do I have to post on here about 4 people from a top-5 MSTP not matching in a single year? You are very, very mistaken.

Neuronix is correct here. Multiple UCSF MSTP grads have not matched in their desired specialties over the last few years. Take the sure thing at UCSD or UCLA. SF is way too damn expensive anyway.

 

[Neuronix]

Based on that information, it won't make difference where you attend.

Nor would it make a difference for any other specialty.

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

Nor would it make a difference for any other specialty.

I have to disagree, I have known many medical students with below average board scores and limited research productivity from top 5 schools comfortably match at top programs in PRS, Rad-onc, and Ortho. Perhaps the UCSF MSTP outcomes were an anomaly.

 

[Alvacea]

I have to disagree, I have known many medical students with below average board scores and limited research productivity from top 5 schools comfortably match at top programs in PRS, Rad-onc, and Ortho. Perhaps the UCSF MSTP outcomes were an anomaly.

I am willing to bet that those students had excellent work ethic and were well-adjusted likable people, and therefore did exceedingly well on their clerkships and away sub-internships, and thus had excellent LORs. And made good impressions in their interviews.

 

[Alvacea]

UCSF
Cons
-great neuroscience but not as many labs I am interested in (many more are at LA and SD)

Graduating MSTP here. When I was in your shoes, I chose the institution with a great scientific reputation in my fields of interest and an excellent medical school but not very many labs that stood out to me as being interesting potential thesis labs. I was worried, but people said things like "you only need one lab" and "as long as there are a few labs you like (in case one PI up and leaves), you'll be fine" and "it's an amazing department". I was reassured and assumed I would find a great lab eventually, that I just hadn't looked close enough. I got to med school and guess what, my first impression and instincts had been correct. It took me a long time to find a lab, the lab ended up having tons of problems, and in retrospect I regret my choice. It all worked out in the end and I am happily awaiting my impending doom i.e. residency, but if I could go back, I would choose the program that had several labs I was excited about and also would have kept me closer to family. One of my co-applicants made the opposite choice I did - he went to the program that was not as (so-called) top tier but had super interesting labs to him - and did exceedingly well in his PhD. Anecdata, but fwiw, I would listen to your instincts.

Also, I thought I was going to do psychiatry. I'm matching into a surgical specialty next week. I would keep an open mind and go wherever you think you and your partner will be happy and have lots of options - interesting labs for you and tech companies for your partner. Good luck! It's a great problem to have =)

 

[Neuronix]

I have to disagree, I have known many medical students with below average board scores and limited research productivity from top 5 schools comfortably match at top programs in PRS, Rad-onc, and Ortho.

The OP was asking about UCSD MSTP vs UCLA MSTP vs UCSF MD-Only.

The PhD doesn't automatically mean you get the residency you want, but it means a lot more than med school name, particularly when you're comparing three strong medical schools.

Perhaps the UCSF MSTP outcomes were an anomaly.

I wasn't talking about UCSF--solitude was. I was talking about the program I attended. Failure to match at all or into your chosen specialty is a closely guarded secret at programs. Many people try to make it sound like the graduates who failed to match were also very defective in order to isolate them. But this phenomenon of failing to match is very real, and more common than most people think. Attending a "top tier" MSTP is no guaranteed match ticket. It helps, but the tier/prestige of the program is a very minor consideration which pales in comparison to having the PhD from an MSTP in the first place.

From my blog:

the number of MD/PhDs who failed to match also grew during this period from 5.7% (32 unmatched of 531) in 2007 to 8.2% (51 of 573) in 2009 and to 6.8% (46 of 626) in 2011.

 

[ValentinNarcisse]

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