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UK Doctor of Medicine/Master of Surgery degrees

Discussion in 'UK & Ireland' started by DarkProtoman, 04.26.08.

  1. DarkProtoman

    DarkProtoman

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    Why does Oxbridge require it's graduates to be of much more senior standing --10-12yrs-- than most other UK universities --2-4yrs-- before allowing supplication for the degrees of Doctor of Medicine/Master of Surgery? Is it b/c earning those degrees require a *much* higher standard of research than a PhD/DPhil, or another university's Doctor of Medicine/Master of Surgery, or is it because of tradition, or are they just trying to make things harder?

    Would you consider an Oxbridge DM/MD/MCh/MChir holder to be more research qualified then a PhD, since the above require unsupervised research, and the PhD doesn't? Would you compare the British qualifications of "DM, FRCP"/"MCh, FRCS" to the American qualifications of "MD, PhD, FACP"/"MD, PhD, FACP"? Would you compare MRCP/MRCS to FACP/FACS, and FRCP/FRCS to MACP/Diplomate of American Board of Surgery?

    I'd love to see you guys' comparison of American and British higher medical qualifications.

    And, btw, if you hold both MRCP *and* MRCS, or both FRCP *and* FRCS, do you still stay "Dr"? Would "John Smith, DM, MCh, FRCP, FRCSEd(Ophth), FRCOphth" be "Mr Smith", or "Dr Smith"?

    Thanks!
  2. ProZackMI

    ProZackMI Psychiatrist/Attorney

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    Oh, it's you again. In the UK, medical school is a taught undergraduate course leading to the MBBS (Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery) degree, not an MD. Some universities grant an MD after doing a thesis on a specific topic. In this case, the MD is a higher graduate degree akin to a PhD. It is not an MD like the US MD, which is = to an MBBS in the UK. Very few Brits obtain the MD, but do an MBBS, PhD program. Both the UK MD and the PhD (US or UK) are research degrees, not clinical degrees. The MCh degree is usually a post MBBS degree for surgeons.

    In the UK, consultant surgeons are all addressed as Mr./Mrs. due to convention. MRCS = Mr, MRCP = Dr. despite the fact the fact that in the UK, the medical credential is not a doctorate, but a bachelor's degree. The Dr. title is a courtesy title for registered practitioners.

    It seems as though you have a bunch of archaic textbooks.
  3. DarkProtoman

    DarkProtoman

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    Um, I do know that the first professional degree for medicine is an MBChB, and MD/ChM is a higher research degree. You didn't really answer my question: Why does Oxbridge require it's suppliants for those degrees to be of 10-12yrs standing, whereas the other ones require a mere 2-4yrs standing? Is it b/c Oxbridge requires a much higher quality of research for a Doctor of Medicine/Master of Surgery, research which is above par w/ a PhD, or what? And if you hold both MRCP and MRCS, are you adressed as "Mr", or "Dr"?

    Thanks!
  4. cleverpseudonym

    cleverpseudonym

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    Hi,

    With regard to your final question, you would use the title appropriate to your speciality. For example, if you did the MRCS and then decided to go back, do the MRCP and become a medical consultant you would use Dr and vice versa. There are plenty of people who do this. I know a pathologist who practiced as a consultant surgeon (With FRCS!) before returning to training and now uses Dr.

    Not too sure regarding the oxbridge info though. Sorry.
  5. DarkProtoman

    DarkProtoman

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    I've heard that FRCP outranks FRCS, so it's associated title of Dr takes precedence over FRCS's associate title of Mr. But I may be wrong, since I'm a yankee.

    And, if I got my MBChB from a UK med school, did my internal medicine residency in the US, passed the MRCP(UK) and ABIM Board Certification in Internal Medicine, and did a fellowship in hematology/medical oncology --here they're combined--, and passed the brand new MRCP Part 3 exam in medical oncology --RCP of London needs to make a MRCP Part 3 exam in clinical hematology as well...the RCPath should only regulate laboratory hematology, aka hematopathology, b/c THEY ARE --or should be-- THE REGULATORY INSTITUTION FOR PATHOLOGISTS, NOT CLINICANS!!!!--, as well as the ABIM Subspecialty Board Certification in Hematology and Medical Oncology, would I be eligible for registration w/ the GMC and inclusion on the Specialist Register as a consultant internist, hematologist, and medical oncologist? Or would I have to take up a position as an associate specialist?

    Thanks!
  6. eirosome

    eirosome

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    Why don't you pick up the phone and ask them? Let us know how it goes.
  7. DarkProtoman

    DarkProtoman

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    Making international phone calls is *way* too expensive on my plan.
  8. Dr.Millisevert

    Dr.Millisevert Senior Member

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    Just to clarify :)

    This is not necessarily true.

    There are medical schools that also admit students right out of high school that are 6 years long and grant the MD degree (Israel, Europe, etc).. and equally there are programs that are 4 years long and require a previous bachelors degree, etc for admission and still grant an MBBS (Australia).

    What you call the degree has nothing to do with the admissions structure.

    All entry level medical degrees are equivalent no matter what you call them (MBBS, MBChB, BMed, MD, MDCM, Dr.MUD, Dr.Med, etc) They are all represent an equal level of entry level 'undergraduate' medical education.

    True graduate medical education is specialty training. :thumbup:
  9. Dr.Millisevert

    Dr.Millisevert Senior Member

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    It has nothing to do with out ranking. FRCP is simply equivalent to being board certified by a subspecialty board of Internal medicine.

    FRCS is simply equivalent to being board certified by the American College of Surgeons. FACS, etc.

    The reason some surgeons (in the UK) choose to go by Mr. instead of Dr. is simply because of tradition. Do some research on the origions of surgical training and how it developed seperately from medical school.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellowship_of_the_Royal_College_of_Surgeons

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