Uk or Ireland for Canadian

[medicstudent]

I have received an offer for medicine from a UK university and as well as Irish university through atlanticbridge
I would definitely like to come back to Canada to practice for either FM or Pediatrics. Which would be better UK or Ireland?
Anyone know what percentage of Canadians from ireland match for residences? Which Irish university had best match rate?
My offer is from UCC and it is a conditional offer with a heavy non refundable deposit . Condition is Chem 6. What if I dont match the condition, lose the deposit? or are they lenient and lower the condition.
I applied RCIS,UCC,UCD,NUIG. Can someone expand on which is the best in terms of teaching, can Candians matching back etc.
I am applying directly from high school-IB. I have also heard that Mac Health Sci has lot of its graduates get into Canadian med schools. I have also applied to this program but its very competitive.

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[Medstart108]

What UK uni did you get the offer from?

 

[medicstudent]

I applied to Kings, Leeds, UEA and Nottingham. At the end regardless of which uni, I will have a UK degree in medicine. From what I have heard, it is possible for internationals to carry out residency in UK but not so easy in ireland. That way, if I do not match in CARMS then at least I can have residency in UK. Although, UK university will not have as many Canadians and will not prepare or facilitate you to return back to Canada to practice as opposed to irish universities.

 

[Medstart108]

me appleid to Kings, Leeds, UEA and Nottingham. At the end regardless of which uni, me will have a UK degree in medicine. From what me have heard, it is possible for internationals to carry out residency in UK but not so easy in ireland. That way, if me do not match in CARMS then at least me can have residency in UK. Although, UK university will not have as many Canadians and will not prepare or facilitate you to return back to Canada to practice as opposed to irish universiteis.

You need to tell us the uni because depending on the curriculum, it could affect how many electives you will have time for and will affect whether or not you should choose that university.

If you want you can send me a private message. I'll help you through there.

 

[medicstudent]

Although I have received offers from UK and Ireland, I am also waiting for McMaster Health Science (will hear in about one weeks time). I have heard that a lot of their graduates make it into medical school. Anyone know?

Which is the best option for being able to become a practicing doctor in Canada. McMaster Health Sci route or take my chances with UK or Ireland?
Should I take my chances to match as an IMG in CARMS or chances to enter med school as McMaster Health Sci grad?

 

[bearded frog]

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[Medstart108]

Although I have received offers from UK and Ireland, I am also waiting for McMaster Health Science (will hear in about one weeks time). I have heard that a lot of their graduates make it into medical school. Anyone know?

Which is the best option for being able to become a practicing doctor in Canada. McMaster Health Sci route or take my chances with UK or Ireland?
Should I take my chances to match as an IMG in CARMS or chances to enter med school as McMaster Health Sci grad?

Good idea. Health Sci has stats on their site, 40%+ of students get into medical school, but I believe that stat is only directly out of school, many more get in later on after gap or masters or career.

For practising in Canada, stick with Health Sci, a lot of their grads place in med school. A lot of people get offers from all 3 and its tough to reject a med school offer, but it is the best decision to take a BHSc offer if you get it.

The whole process of applying to med school from undergrad in Canada is as difficult as the process of applying to residency from med school in the UK or Ireland. So don't think its somehow easier, the same things apply you have standardized exams, ECs, grades + interview. On top of that once you are in medical school you can literally be almost any sort of doctor you want and will likely have a choice of location and no stress over return of service. If you go abroad, yes you will graduate earlier but almost everything else is worse.

 

[sassa]

I would get the undergraduate degree first.

Work your butt off. Then apply to all the med schools you want (Canadian, Irish, UK, whatever).

And undergrad (and then writing an MCAT / UKCAT) will be valuable whether you get into medicine or not.

And - not to sound like one of those "old people" - I firmly believe that there are few people in this world who really know what they wanted to do at 17/18/19 when they finish high school. I sure as heck didn't and my head has always been screwed on straight. Motivation to do something doesn't equate to the deep down knowledge you want it for life. Use your early 20s to figure out who you are and what you want. You might change your mind (many of my friends did). Heck. I had to take some time to work after my undergrad because I wanted to be sure of what I wanted - still came back to medicine, and I'm in Ireland not Canada, but I'm happy with my decisions. I have no regrets. All opportunities explored.

TL;DR - get your undergrad at Mac. Do well. Keep your future open.

 

[Medstart108]

Unfortunately the way things work these days you pretty much have to decide what you want to do by 18 or 19 at least in Canada because if you want medicine, your undergraduate life needs to be focused on it. You need to pick the right pre-reqs, do research, volunteer, teach, study for the MCAT. Its ridiculous and pretty much a joke but that is how it is. I think the very fact that you are willing to put in all that effort and time to preparing your application and applying is proof enough that you are dedicated and have thought the decision out.

Also, note that most students in the UK and Ireland decided what they wanted to do for the rest of their lives by 16. They also needed a few years to prepare their application, take A-level Bio and Chem, volunteer write the, UKCAT and/or BMAT etc. I would say 5-10% of the class drops out/stays back or switches courses in 1st year. So most people end up liking it. Just my 2 cents.

 

[sassa]

Unfortunately the way things work these days you pretty much have to decide what you want to do by 18 or 19 at least in Canada because if you want medicine, your undergraduate life needs to be focused on it. You need to pick the right pre-reqs, do research, volunteer, teach, study for the MCAT. Its ridiculous and pretty much a joke but that is how it is. I think the very fact that you are willing to put in all that effort and time to preparing your application and applying is proof enough that you are dedicated and have thought the decision out.

Also, note that most students in the UK and Ireland decided what they wanted to do for the rest of their lives by 16. They also needed a few years to prepare their application, take A-level Bio and Chem, volunteer write the, UKCAT and/or BMAT etc. I would say 5-10% of the class drops out/stays back or switches courses in 1st year. So most people end up liking it. Just my 2 cents.

Oh I get that. I'm not naive to the way things work in all countries!

Trust me. I decided the path I wanted at 15 (I'm Canadian). Did all the pre-reqs to pre-req courses in high school, volunteering, top marks, blah blah blah. Went through engineering so I would always have a fallback - parents' guidance I actually listened to and appreciate. Just in case I didn't get medicine. Trust me, I get the complexities of it

Just saying that I do know many people (myself included) that do grow in time away from school. And time in school. And that even if medicine is *the thing* they / you / I want to do, it's not the worst thing in the world to make sure you want it considering the time investment for life. Many (not all) people aren't able to understand that at 17 or so, no matter how forward-thinking they are (I can say that though I knew it in theory at 17, it was still different in theory at 22 when I graduated university and again at 25 when I accepted medical school in Ireland).

 

[Dredge]

Hey,
I totally agree with sassa. We often tend to get caught up with the routine of working towards something and we lose sight of the forest through the trees. We can study and try really hard and panic over every test and every reference letter, but sometimes we forget why we panic. I can tell you I knew I wanted to be a doctor when I was 15 then I knew I didn't when I was 23. Now after 2 years of master's and actually getting a chance to see what my life would be out of medicine I've realized that it's something I want to do with my life. I'm starting medschool in Ireland this year (RCSI) and I'm not sure I would be here if I didnt take some time to realize that whatever career you decide you have to treat the process of even applying to it as your job, as if it was just another part of your career. When I was filling out applications to med school (and getting rejected lol) that was my job. Now my new job is going to be, being a medstudent, until my job is being a doctor....eventually...hopefully...maybe...oi lol

 

[medicstudent]

I have done a lot of volunteering and Ecs and worked very hard to keep my grades up. I am also very sure that I want to be a doctor and definitely want to return home to Canada to practice . If I were to complete the undergrad Bhsc at McMaster, and then having to go to UK or Ireland would be financially hard as I will have already spent a good amount on my undergrad.
Its a very tough decision. There are horror stories of people not being able to enter Med school in Canada as well as IMGs not getting residency.

 

[Medstart108]

I have done a lot of volunteering and Ecs and worked very hard to keep my grades up. I am also very sure that I want to be a doctor and definitely want to return home to Canada to practice . If I were to complete the undergrad Bhsc at McMaster, and then having to go to UK or Ireland would be financially hard as I will have already spent a good amount on my undergrad.
Its a very tough decision. There are horror stories of people not being able to enter Med school in Canada as well as IMGs not getting residency.

Hey medicstudent, you are in a very similar situation to me. If you do get into Mac, go. Its an amazing opportunity and honestly just by being on this forum, you sound like someone who would get all the volunteering and ECs done in uni as well as the studying for GPA and MCAT. The average GPA of a BHSc is somewhere around 3.9 (from a friend). So GPA should not be a problem, same with MCAT. As long as you get the volunteering and ECs done its up to your luck and your interview/MMI performance.

If you don't get in, you can apply the following year, do a masters and apply or apply to the US. Either way, a better option than going to the UK or Ireland. As I said, it is tough to reject a med school offer, but as I tell everyone this is the hierarchy: QuARMS > BHSc > UK/Ireland/other BSc/BMSc program. QuARMs obviously because it is a 6 year MD. BHSc because it has the highest medical school acceptance rates straight out of undergrad. Otherwise it is up to you, but as you know, if you go to the UK/Ireland don't expect to get residency in Canada and definitely not in any competitive speciality. Expect RoS, and not being able to choose where you live for the next 10-15 years of your life.

 

[medicstudent]

Yes, definitely hard to turn down an offer for medicine. Unfortunately, I didn't get QuARMS. Where have you applied or are you already in med school?

 

[Medstart108]

Yes, definitely hard to turn down an offer for medicine. Unfortunately, I didn't get QuARMS. Where have you applied or are you already in med school?

I'm in medical school already. I should have rephrased: you are in a similar situation I was in.

 

[medicstudent]

In Canada or abroad? What was your path and why?

 

[S0B]

Almost identical situation as me back 2 years ago: I was a grade 12 IB student with good marks waiting on a health sci acceptance and two offers (from liverpool medicine and ireland medicine looming)

Ultimately, I decided to go with Ireland and haven't regretted it since, I didnt get accepted to macmaster health sci and I thought the UK system wouldnt benefit the return of international graduates. Ireland has ALOT more Canadian students (Stats indicate over 1000) and train you well for USMLE and acclimation with Canadian residency programs.

 

[S0B]

Otherwise it is up to you, but as you know, if you go to the UK/Ireland don't expect to get residency in Canada and definitely not in any competitive speciality. Expect RoS, and not being able to choose where you live for the next 10-15 years of your life.

Can you back these statements? The schooling of choice has little to do with what type of residency you acquire, it ultimately depends on your board scores.

I know individuals who graduated within the past year matching to competitive specialties such as plastics, orthopedics and radiology IN CANADA graduating from an Irish medical school. Is it difficult? Yes, but it is not impossible, hard work determines where you go in life.

Also, return of service is a maximum of 5 years and you can easily get out of this through marriage, illness or living in a less populated area. You can also buy out the contract which many individuals choose to do.

 

[sassa]

Also, return of service is a maximum of 5 years and you can easily get out of this through marriage, illness or living in a less populated area. You can also buy out the contract which many individuals choose to do.

Buyout is ~$60k a year (what we were told at a talk about a month ago) sooooo unless you have the funds, not really an option.

RoS isn't always max 5 years I thought? We were also told that it could be year for year for some specialties. Which would suck if you say, matched to vasculature surgery, and then had to do 5 years in a rural area, losing the cutting edge skills (no pun intended) you need to keep in order to stay competitive in your field.

It's all a very ridiculous game, no matter where you go. Be prepared for it as best as you can.

(Thankfully, I've let go of my surgical dreams for other life reasons and I actually am one of the few who wants rural medicine )

 

[bearded frog]

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[S0B]

IMGs and CSAs are in line behind CMGs and USMGs in CaRMS match ranking, regardless of board scores.

Yes I understand that but to claim that CSA in UK/Ireland do not acquire high positioning residencies is preposterous.

Here are my sources: http://www.atlanticbridge.com/medicine/residency/placements/
Most recent is the 2013 match.

The results speak for themselves.

 

[bearded frog]

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[Medstart108]

I'm going to have to agree with bearded frog here. Considering that there are about 300 Irish grads from the Atlantic Bridge program every year, most of them Canadian, there were only 2 Ortho, 1 General and 1 Plastic Surgery matches in Canada. Assuming around 16% (this is a stat i heard from a lecturer) of med students wanted to be surgeons, you would expect about 48 of those Irish grads wanting surgery. A good chunk of them just aren't going to get it, a few lucky ones will get it in Canada, others will be lucky enough to get it in the US, but most will either settle for their 2nd choice speciality or wont' match at all. A lot of those other competitive specialty matches may have gone to Americans who have US citizenship and are more likely to focus their efforts solely on the US (more elective in the US etc).

Keeping it real, there are 6 Ortho, 6 General, 1 CV Surg and 2 Plastic spots in Canada according to CaRMS. Most of the other competitive specialties have either 1 or 2 spots in Canada and a good half of them (at least in Ontario where most of them are based) go to true IMGs not CSAs.

https://www.carms.ca/assets/upload/pdfs/2013R1_MatchResults/Table_14_En.pdf

Even if you look at IM, the number of Canadian matches was only around 7 or 8. I'm sure there were many more Irish students wanting IM in Canada than 7 or 8. UofT, who have 12 spots only gave 2 to Irish grads. It really isn't a pretty picture i'm afraid.

On the flip side, if you really wanted a competitive specialty and you did medical school in the UK, you could feasibly train in the UK and then try to find a job in Canada, although many of these specialties are very pedigree based and won't just take a UK trained neurosurgeon willy nilly especially when many Canadian trained surgeons cannot even find a job in Canada. Things just get incredibly more complicated the more specialized you go.

Most places in Canada are crying out for FM docs and if you did your FM training in the UK or Ireland or Australia, they will gladly allow you to come back to Canada. But if you are specialized, your training will hurt you when applying.

 

[Medstart108]

Can you back these statements? The schooling of choice has little to do with what type of residency you acquire, it ultimately depends on your board scores.

I know individuals who graduated within the past year matching to competitive specialties such as plastics, orthopedics and radiology IN CANADA graduating from an Irish medical school. Is it difficult? Yes, but it is not impossible, hard work determines where you go in life.

Also, return of service is a maximum of 5 years and you can easily get out of this through marriage, illness or living in a less populated area. You can also buy out the contract which many individuals choose to do.

How can you get out of it through marriage or illness? Besides, who would inflict an illness on themselves to get out of RoS, that would be taking it way too far. Again, buying out we hear is true but there is a huge cost associated with it.

Honestly, when match numbers are "1" or "2" to competitive specialties, pure hard work is rarely enough. A higher % of those who go abroad have parents who are physicians back in Canada. The stat should be on the 2010 CaRMS report. The people who match could have had electives otherwise unobtainable arranged through parental connections which would aid them greatly in the match. Or they would have pretty much have been amazing individuals who dedicated all their time trying to match. Or it could just come down to pure luck, when the # of spots are 1 or 2 even the slightest variable change could make the difference between acceptance or rejection. If you have particularly strong competition from a superstar IMG or you graduate in the same year as another Canadian who has a connection or a better application than you. Who honestly wants to put 4-6 years of their life, hard work and 300k for a toss of the dice? At the end of the day we are talking about a case where a high school student could have an offer to one of the best pre-med programs in Canada. For the same level of effort required to obtain any residency spot in Canada you could get into medical school in Canada especially if coming from Mac BHSc.

 

[S0B]

How can you get out of it through marriage or illness? Besides, who would inflict an illness on themselves to get out of RoS, that would be taking it way too far. Again, buying out we hear is true but there is a huge cost associated with it.

Honestly, when match numbers are "1" or "2" to competitive specialties, pure hard work is rarely enough. A higher % of those who go abroad have parents who are physicians back in Canada. The stat should be on the 2010 CaRMS report. The people who match could have had electives otherwise unobtainable arranged through parental connections which would aid them greatly in the match. Or they would have pretty much have been amazing individuals who dedicated all their time trying to match. Or it could just come down to pure luck, when the # of spots are 1 or 2 even the slightest variable change could make the difference between acceptance or rejection. If you have particularly strong competition from a superstar IMG or you graduate in the same year as another Canadian who has a connection or a better application than you. Who honestly wants to put 4-6 years of their life, hard work and 300k for a toss of the dice? At the end of the day we are talking about a case where a high school student could have an offer to one of the best pre-med programs in Canada. For the same level of effort required to obtain any residency spot in Canada you could get into medical school in Canada especially if coming from Mac BHSc.

I'm not refuting your statement I do believe that McMaster health sciences is probably the best program in Canada for undergraduate medicine. However I'm not trying to discredit the Irish or UK systems, they are high-class and they are not those Caribbean schools who are just for profit.

In regards to your point regarding the return of service yes it can be bought out and I'm not necessarily saying that someone will inflicting injury upon themselves to get out of this but there are options such as if your spouse works in a location distant from you and it affects your family life.

I think everyone who leaves the country to study medicine knows the risks involved of getting back to Canada. However there are also risks involved and staying within Canada. Obviously nothing is guaranteed in life and as we can see that competition increases every year in medical schools. Even if you enter McMaster health sciences program you aren't necessarily guaranteed a spot in medical school

It's a well-known fact that many of the people who admit in the expedited four your program are those who have tried numerous times applying to Canada. Ultimately hard work will determine if you reach your ultimate goal as a surgeon/doctor whether or not you stay in Canada or decide to leave the country to study

 

[Medstart108]

I'm not refuting your statement I do believe that McMaster health sciences is probably the best program in Canada for undergraduate medicine. However I'm not trying to discredit the Irish or UK systems, they are high-class and they are not those Caribbean schools who are just for profit.

In regards to your point regarding the return of service yes it can be bought out and I'm not necessarily saying that someone will inflicting injury upon themselves to get out of this but there are options such as if your spouse works in a location distant from you and it affects your family life.

I think everyone who leaves the country to study medicine knows the risks involved of getting back to Canada. However there are also risks involved and staying within Canada. Obviously nothing is guaranteed in life and as we can see that competition increases every year in medical schools. Even if you enter McMaster health sciences program you aren't necessarily guaranteed a spot in medical school

It's a well-known fact that many of the people who admit in the expedited four your program are those who have tried numerous times applying to Canada. Ultimately hard work will determine if you reach your ultimate goal as a surgeon/doctor whether or not you stay in Canada or decide to leave the country to study

I put the stats out there. They don't look great. I specifically never said anything about the med ed at UK and Irish schools which are great, in some cases better but for residency purposes graduating from Cambridge is still worse than graduating from Quinnipiac. No one is saying that Canadian and US schools teach better than UK or Irish schools but the facts are if you go abroad you get thousands of students competing for a few hundred spots. When there is a great chance at getting into medicine in Canada or the US, why not take it. Because that 40%+ stat is just for direct entrance, there are probably another 20-30% who get in either to a Canadian or US med school later and 5-10% who never had intentions of med in the first place. So basically as long as you are in the top 60-70% of the class you have a spot. Its a competitive bunch of students, but if OP worked his butt off he's almost guaranteed to get a spot. If he goes abroad he needs to work his butt off as well and the risks are also very large. You have to remember, a good chunk of Canadian medical students and doctors have disdain for "CSAs" for various reasons.

 

[PteFabulous]

I'm not refuting your statement I do believe that McMaster health sciences is probably the best program in Canada for undergraduate medicine. However I'm not trying to discredit the Irish or UK systems, they are high-class and they are not those Caribbean schools who are just for profit.

In regards to your point regarding the return of service yes it can be bought out and I'm not necessarily saying that someone will inflicting injury upon themselves to get out of this but there are options such as if your spouse works in a location distant from you and it affects your family life.

I think everyone who leaves the country to study medicine knows the risks involved of getting back to Canada. However there are also risks involved and staying within Canada. Obviously nothing is guaranteed in life and as we can see that competition increases every year in medical schools. Even if you enter McMaster health sciences program you aren't necessarily guaranteed a spot in medical school

It's a well-known fact that many of the people who admit in the expedited four your program are those who have tried numerous times applying to Canada. Ultimately hard work will determine if you reach your ultimate goal as a surgeon/doctor whether or not you stay in Canada or decide to leave the country to study

Ok, why are you hating on Caribbean schools? Honestly, I am so sick of Irish grads thinking they are so much better then Caribbean grads. Yes Ireland has good schools, but it's not like the education from (good) Caribbean schools is that much worse. We all write the same Canadian boards exams, and I haven't seen any stats that show Irish grads doing significantly better than Caribbean grads. And maybe Caribbean schools are for profit, but it's not like they are that much cheaper then Caribbean schools. Like it or not Canadians who go to med school in Ireland, UK, Caribbean, India, Australia, Africa, etc. are all IMG's when it comes to CaRMS.

The return of service can be bought out, but as medstart said it's very expensive. For example, my ROS says it would cost $120 000 per year of training to buy out. Not many people can afford that. I don't think you could get out of it because a spouse lives far away, maybe if you had terminal cancer of something.

Nothing is guaranteed in life, but it is significantly harder to match to Canada after going abroad. The reality is that many hardworking students despite getting good marks, doing well on boards, and having good reference letters will still end up not matching. There are always going to be those who want to take the chance, which is fine, obviously it works out for some. But it's important to keep in mind that it's a long, expensive, curvy road to get back to Canada.

 

[S0B]

Ok, why are you hating on Caribbean schools? Honestly, I am so sick of Irish grads thinking they are so much better then Caribbean grads. Yes Ireland has good schools, but it's not like the education from (good) Caribbean schools is that much worse. We all write the same Canadian boards exams, and I haven't seen any stats that show Irish grads doing significantly better than Caribbean grads. And maybe Caribbean schools are for profit, but it's not like they are that much cheaper then Caribbean schools. Like it or not Canadians who go to med school in Ireland, UK, Caribbean, India, Australia, Africa, etc. are all IMG's when it comes to CaRMS.

The return of service can be bought out, but as medstart said it's very expensive. For example, my ROS says it would cost $120 000 per year of training to buy out. Not many people can afford that. I don't think you could get out of it because a spouse lives far away, maybe if you had terminal cancer of something.

Nothing is guaranteed in life, but it is significantly harder to match to Canada after going abroad. The reality is that many hardworking students despite getting good marks, doing well on boards, and having good reference letters will still end up not matching. There are always going to be those who want to take the chance, which is fine, obviously it works out for some. But it's important to keep in mind that it's a long, expensive, curvy road to get back to Canada.

I dont know why you're getting so defensive, I never said ALL Caribbean schools are worse. I was specifically talking about the "FOR PROFIT" schools, now I don't know where you attend school or neither do I care. The reality is, caribbean graduates of those schools RARELY match back to canada and in general, caribbean graduates match significantly less than those from Europe

I dont have a pretentious attitude about Irish/UK graduates, so please don't put those false pretenses in your mind. I back everything I say with statistics and facts, if you don't like it, gladly get off this forum.

 

[PteFabulous]

I dont know why you're getting so defensive, I never said ALL Caribbean schools are worse. I was specifically talking about the "FOR PROFIT" schools, now I don't know where you attend school or neither do I care. The reality is, caribbean graduates of those schools RARELY match back to canada and in general, caribbean graduates match significantly less than those from Europe

I dont have a pretentious attitude about Irish/UK graduates, so please don't put those false pretenses in your mind. I back everything I say with statistics and facts, if you don't like it, gladly get off this forum.

I am being defensive because this is a very common attitude of Irish grads, not you specifically. I experienced it everywhere on the interview trail where as soon as the Irish grad I was talking to learned I went to the Caribbean they suddenly got an ego.

Obviously European grads do well in the Canadian match, and better then Caribbean grads. That doesn't mean that European education is that much better since your school is not the only factor in getting into residency. All I was saying is that it's hard to match back in Canada wherever you go to medical school in the world (unless you go to a US school). Even with good board scores and good letters of recommendation, it is not easy to match so be prepared for that possibility.

 

[medicstudent]

I have received an offer now for MacMaster Health Sci now! Depending on my final results, I will then have to make the BIG decision for UK, Ireland and MacHealth Sci...conditional offers. However, Mac Health Sci seems are much less complicated route to be able to practice in Canada but then UK and Ireland are direct entry from high school.

 

[Medstart108]

I have received an offer now for MacMaster Health Sci now! Depending on my final results, I will then have to make the BIG decision for UK, Ireland and MacHealth Sci...conditional offers. However, Mac Health Sci seems are much less complicated route to be able to practice in Canada but then UK and Ireland are direct entry from high school.

Congrats, just stick with Health Sciences. Its cheaper, and better. I don't know anyone who went to Health Sci who did not get into medical school in Canada. Just a few days ago another person I knew at BHSc got into med in Canada. Keep in mind if you go abroad you'll have a very difficult time if you are interested in a speciality that is competitive, whereas you won't if you stay in Canada.