UK vs USA

[qqwerty10101]

Have been looking at this site recently and I cannot believe that in the US dental school is seen as a 'back up' to medical school. Is this really the case? In the UK dental and medical schools require the same A levels (AAA) you take the same entry exam UKCAT and the competition rates change every few years where dent> med and med>dent.
In the UK pharmacy and optometry are considered as back ups for many medical/dental students since the grade requirements are lower, lower competition rates and you dont need work experience etc.
Most people dont even know what a chiropractor or a podiatrist is so im not even going to get into that.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[darkjedi]

Dentistry in the US is seen as a very well paid, but not nearly as respected a field as medicine is. It tends to attract those who are more in it for the money and lifestyle aspect.

 

[qqwerty10101]

Dentistry in the US is seen as a very well paid, but not nearly as respected a field as medicine is. It tends to attract those who are more in it for the money and lifestyle aspect.

In the UK its also very well paid (better paid than medicine for the first ~10 years) and is often 'seen' as being for those who only care about money. The degree is just as 'prestigious' as medicine in recent times.

 

[lmn]

I don't think dental is a hard backup for medical school, the professions are extremely different. Sure some people might decide on dental school after deciding medical school is too much or too hard to get into, but it isn't necessarily the norm to say I can't get into med school, I guess I'll go the dental route. I would say more commonly, DO is used by some as a backup to MD, PA/NP as a backup for MD/DO, RN/etc used as a backup to MD/DO/PA/NP.

 

[Planes2Doc]

People mentioned backups all the time, but if you've catered all of undergrad toward getting into medical school (all of your ECs are medical), then you'll have a very funny looking dental school application.

No one likes being a fallback option, and focusing all of your ECs on one type of professional school will make it painfully obvious. I don't understand how it works.

 

[qqwerty10101]

I don't think dental is a hard backup for medical school, the professions are extremely different. Sure some people might decide on dental school after deciding medical school is too much or too hard to get into, but it isn't necessarily the norm to say I can't get into med school, I guess I'll go the dental route. I would say more commonly, DO is used by some as a backup to MD, PA/NP as a backup for MD/DO, RN/etc used as a backup to MD/DO/PA/NP.

Medical school 'too hard' to get into for dental students in the US? Really?
Glad Im not applying to be a dental student in the US.

 

[qqwerty10101]

People mentioned backups all the time, but if you've catered all of undergrad toward getting into medical school (all of your ECs are medical), then you'll have a very funny looking dental school application.

No one likes being a fallback option, and focusing all of your ECs on one type of professional school will make it painfully obvious. I don't understand how it works.

In the UK since we apply for medicine/dentistry at undergrad I think we dont have as much ECs as you guys.
In the UK you can only apply to 5 university courses.
Only 4 of them can be Med/Dent/Vet
And you can only apply to either cambridge or oxford, not both.
Med/Dental students use their 5th choice as optom/pharm/bio med and get in even with a full dentistry/medicine(myself included - I got an offer from a pharmacy school) Personal statement and no optom/pharm ECs.

 

[lmn]

Medical school 'too hard' to get into for dental students in the US? Really?
Glad Im not applying to be a dental student in the US.

The requirements and expected EC's are different enough that it is challenging to make yourself a strongly competitive applicant for one while still staying valid for the other. Plus if you generally like working with people diagnosing and treating illness/injuries in a medical setting, doing it in a dental setting is extremely different and for many, not what they want to do. Same thing for people who are interested in dentistry, they often aren't interested in doing what doctors would do.

 

[qqwerty10101]

The requirements and expected EC's are different enough that it is challenging to make yourself a strongly competitive applicant for one while still staying valid for the other. Plus if you generally like working with people diagnosing and treating illness/injuries in a medical setting, doing it in a dental setting is extremely different and for many, not what they want to do. Same thing for people who are interested in dentistry, they often aren't interested in doing what doctors would do.

I dont think im getting to the crux of my question
Is Pharm and optom considered on the same 'level' of dentistry in terms of acceptance and difficulty? And is Dentistry considered on the same level of medicine for the same? In the US
Im sorry, but neither optometry school or pharmacy school is even comparable to the difficulty of medical/dental school in the UK. Optom is a three year degree and pharmacy is a 4 year degree. You dont have to take any entrance exam and your a levels can be anything from BCC to AAB and get accepted.
Not to mention dentists actually have to learn surgical skills.

 

[hubriz]

Medical school 'too hard' to get into for dental students in the US? Really?
Glad Im not applying to be a dental student in the US.

I was under the impression that dental school is equally challenging to get into. blah bla blah

 

[allantois]

US professional education (including law school) is quite distinct from that of Europe. In Europe a good student can apply to all kinds of professional schools all at the same time but in US an applicant must demonstrate their interest in one professional area over long period of time. I also know that in UK there's a different route to becoming a specialist than in the US, but I don't completely understand that system. Also, vet school is the hardest to gain admission to in the US but it has nothing to do with the prestige of the profession.

 

[qqwerty10101]

I was under the impression that dental school is equally challenging to get into. blah bla blah

blah bla blah? Whats your point?

 

[DokterMom]

Have been looking at this site recently and I cannot believe that in the US dental school is seen as a 'back up' to medical school. Is this really the case? In the UK dental and medical schools require the same A levels (AAA) you take the same entry exam UKCAT and the competition rates change every few years where dent> med and med>dent.

Can't believe that nobody in the US has made a snarky joke about dentistry in the UK!

 

[qqwerty10101]

Can't believe that nobody in the US has made a snarky joke about dentistry in the UK!

haha - tbh i have seen a few posts saying that all dentists should move to the UK
Ironically it seems dentistry is seen in higher regard in the UK in comparison to the US

 

[YamNMangos]

Dentistry in the US is seen as a very well paid, but not nearly as respected a field as medicine is. It tends to attract those who are more in it for the money and lifestyle aspect.

There may be some truth to your statement that the profession tends to initially attract those who are in it for the money and lifestyle, but to those who are well informed (the several incoming dental students I have talked to) about the process, at least on the money-side, going into dentistry is a terrible idea. Compared to the medical field, dentists tend to earn about the same amount of salary, if not less, and dental schools are much, much more expensive, averaging almost 100k/year (many have surpassed this) in total cost for 4-years. In addition, there are no loan forgiveness programs, financial aid, and other types of monetary relief since dental services are regarded as non-essential by the federal government, so there is no funding. If you think about the huge initial cost, it's almost necessary for dentists to have a large salary, even more so than physicians, to pay off all this debt. Personally, I think dentistry is for people who likes working with their hands without having to take the risk of matching into competitive medical specialties in the surgeries. For those who are truly in for the money and lifestyle, pharmacy, engineering, law-professions, even medicine, are much better investment options.

In all, I think there are some large misconceptions about dent - I was definitely very surprised when I heard about all this myself. Just wanted to give my two cents . I have no idea though whether or not this applies to the UK.

 

[lmn]

haha - tbh i have seen a few posts saying that all dentists should move to the UK
Ironically it seems dentistry is seen in higher regard in the UK in comparison to the US

It is respectable, but not as highly regarded, my guess would be because people associate doctors with saving lives in clutch situations and dealing with blood and gore and what not that movies and media like to show of the medical field. Dentists on the other hand are the people you go to that poke at your teeth and make your gums bleed and tell you that you need to floss more, people generally don't connect the dots as much on how necessary dentists are because you don't (normally) go to them when you are having a life endangering emergency. So people see don't "respect" dentists in the same way as they would doctors in the US I would say, not sure how it differs in the UK and other countries.

There may be some truth to your statement that the profession tends to initially attract those who are in it for the money and lifestyle, but to those who are well informed (the several incoming dental students I have talked to) about the process, at least on the money-side, going into dentistry is a terrible idea. Compared to the medical field, dentists tend to earn about the same amount of salary, if not less, and dental schools are much, much more expensive, averaging almost 100k/year (many have surpassed this) in total cost for 4-years. In addition, there are no loan forgiveness programs, financial aid, and other types of monetary relief since dental services are regarded as non-essential by the federal government, so there is no funding. If you think about the huge initial cost, it's almost necessary for dentists to have a large salary, even more so than physicians, to pay off all this debt. Personally, I think dentistry is for people who likes working with their hands without having to take the risk of matching into competitive medical specialties in the surgeries. For those who are truly in for the money and lifestyle, pharmacy, engineering, law-professions, even medicine, are much better investment options.

In all, I think there are some large misconceptions about dent - I was definitely very surprised when I heard about all this myself. Just wanted to give my two cents .

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CEgQFjAC&url=http://www.adea.org/publications/tde/documents/allpredoctoralstudentdebttuitiongraphs.pdf&ei=JDOjU52CEdSryASL64GoCw&usg=AFQjCNESmbSG4RQBrsVWOGE34k75_Jfs4A&sig2=jg7l46JFaStrmL1QCTqnUA&bvm=bv.69411363,d.aWw
The cost doesn't seem nearly as extraordinarily different from medical school as you say, not to mention not having 3-5++ years of residency where you will make maybe $50-60k. If we are just talking about money and lifestyle, I think dentists hands down get a great salary (from an earlier time) and much better hours/lifestyle.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Have been looking at this site recently and I cannot believe that in the US dental school is seen as a 'back up' to medical school. Is this really the case? In the UK dental and medical schools require the same A levels (AAA) you take the same entry exam UKCAT and the competition rates change every few years where dent> med and med>dent.
In the UK pharmacy and optometry are considered as back ups for many medical/dental students since the grade requirements are lower, lower competition rates and you dont need work experience etc.
Most people dont even know what a chiropractor or a podiatrist is so im not even going to get into that.

You have to understand how insurance and income potential works to realize why medicine in the US is considered more desirable.

 

[YamNMangos]

The cost doesn't seem nearly as extraordinarily different from medical school as you say, not to mention not having 3-5++ years of residency where you will make maybe $50-60k. If we are just talking about money and lifestyle, I think dentists hands down get a great salary (from an earlier time) and much better hours/lifestyle.

The data you have here goes up to 2010, but if you extrapolate and compare to the average debt of med students for 2013, which is $170k, you are probably approaching 200k+.

http://www.ama-assn.org//ama/pub/ab...y-policy/medical-student-debt/background.page

For 100k/year cost, I was thinking mostly about the private dent schools; forgot to search up the public schools so probably not as scary as I thought .

In terms of residency of 3-5 years, you have similar years if you want to pursue a specialty in dentistry, though most don't. The first few years you are also straight out of training and you probably aren't earning as much, though I don't have any data on exactly how much. As such, I don't think dent school has much of an edge over medicine even in the short run.

 

[DermViser]

There may be some truth to your statement that the profession tends to initially attract those who are in it for the money and lifestyle, but to those who are well informed (the several incoming dental students I have talked to) about the process, at least on the money-side, going into dentistry is a terrible idea. Compared to the medical field, dentists tend to earn about the same amount of salary, if not less, and dental schools are much, much more expensive, averaging almost 100k/year (many have surpassed this) in total cost for 4-years. In addition, there are no loan forgiveness programs, financial aid, and other types of monetary relief since dental services are regarded as non-essential by the federal government, so there is no funding. If you think about the huge initial cost, it's almost necessary for dentists to have a large salary, even more so than physicians, to pay off all this debt. Personally, I think dentistry is for people who likes working with their hands without having to take the risk of matching into competitive medical specialties in the surgeries. For those who are truly in for the money and lifestyle, pharmacy, engineering, law-professions, even medicine, are much better investment options.

In all, I think there are some large misconceptions about dent - I was definitely very surprised when I heard about all this myself. Just wanted to give my two cents . I have no idea though whether or not this applies to the UK.

Wow, so much wrong in this post it's not even funny. Checks status ---> Medical student (accepted). That explains it.

 

[YamNMangos]

Wow, so much wrong in this post it's not even funny. Checks status ---> Medical student (accepted). That explains it.

Then please inform me where I got it wrong I don't want to go around spreading the wrong information

 

[DermViser]

Then please inform me where I got it wrong I don't want to go around spreading the wrong information

Will do, Medical Student (accepted)!

• For those who are truly in for the money and lifestyle, pharmacy, engineering, law-professions, even medicine, are much better investment options.
  
• Personally, I think dentistry is for people who likes working with their hands without having to take the risk of matching into competitive medical specialties in the surgeries.
  
• In addition, there are no loan forgiveness programs, financial aid, and other types of monetary relief since dental services are regarded as non-essential by the federal government, so there is no funding.
  
• Compared to the medical field, dentists tend to earn about the same amount of salary, if not less, and dental schools are much, much more expensive, averaging almost 100k/year (many have surpassed this) in total cost for 4-years.

 

[Dires]

I just came in to say USA > UK.

BOOM.

 

[lmn]

The data you have here goes up to 2010, but if you extrapolate and compare to the average debt of med students for 2013, which is $170k, you are probably approaching 200k+.

http://www.ama-assn.org//ama/pub/ab...y-policy/medical-student-debt/background.page

For 100k/year cost, I was thinking mostly about the private dent schools; forgot to search up the public schools so probably not as scary as I thought .

In terms of residency of 3-5 years, you have similar years if you want to pursue a specialty in dentistry, though most don't. The first few years you are also straight out of training and you probably aren't earning as much, though I don't have any data on exactly how much. As such, I don't think dent school has much of an edge over medicine even in the short run.

So essentially comparable between medical and dental debts on average. A quick google search seems to say the average starting salary is around $100kish, definitely not a ton, but considering that is often a standard week of work compared to a resident's week for half the pay, it's pretty good. Then when you consider jumping into a $150k+ range within a couple of years, they can pay off their loans much much faster than medical students and save a good amount on interest. Now although there is a fair opportunity for dentists to work in multiple practices, own practices, or do specialty surgeries/procedures which could make their earning potentials nearly limitless, the average salary is somewhere around $150k, substantially less than a full-fledged physician most of the time, but they are able to have this salary earlier and thus do things faster with it in terms of buying a house, starting a family, travelling, etc. It depends if you want the larger amount of money later as a physician (all while working much longer work weeks than dentists) or if you want still very considerable amounts of money and more comfortable lifestyle that you could be getting regularly by your mid 20's as a dentist.

Side note: I don't know about repayment/forgiveness with dental school, but contrary to what you stated about it being unavailable, at least one person in the sdn thread I listed below mentions doing such a program.


http://www.ehow.com/facts_7494753_average-salary-starting-dentist.html
http://www.salarypad.net/2013/05/dentist-salary-average-and-starting-income-by-state.html
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...ing-salary-right-out-of-dental-school.966663/

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes291021.htm (tons of salary info if you're interested)

 

[el_duderino]

There was a thread on this recently....
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/a-question-about-us-entry-into-med-dent-school.1075562/

Oh look who the OP is!

 

[qqwerty10101]

I just came in to say USA > UK.

BOOM.

brb ~70% of americans believe in creationism.
Brb you still dont have the NHS
No thanks jeff

 

[lmn]

brb ~70% of americans believe in creationism.
Brb you still dont have the NHS
No thanks jeff

At least quote an accurate figure: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/americans-believe-in-creationism_n_1571127.html
Although the true accuracy of these polls are still debatable.

 

[qqwerty10101]

There may be some truth to your statement that the profession tends to initially attract those who are in it for the money and lifestyle, but to those who are well informed (the several incoming dental students I have talked to) about the process, at least on the money-side, going into dentistry is a terrible idea. Compared to the medical field, dentists tend to earn about the same amount of salary, if not less, and dental schools are much, much more expensive, averaging almost 100k/year (many have surpassed this) in total cost for 4-years. In addition, there are no loan forgiveness programs, financial aid, and other types of monetary relief since dental services are regarded as non-essential by the federal government, so there is no funding. If you think about the huge initial cost, it's almost necessary for dentists to have a large salary, even more so than physicians, to pay off all this debt. Personally, I think dentistry is for people who likes working with their hands without having to take the risk of matching into competitive medical specialties in the surgeries. For those who are truly in for the money and lifestyle, pharmacy, engineering, law-professions, even medicine, are much better investment options.

In all, I think there are some large misconceptions about dent - I was definitely very surprised when I heard about all this myself. Just wanted to give my two cents . I have no idea though whether or not this applies to the UK.

In the UK engineering and law dont pay as much as dentistry unless you go to a top 5 uni and after a 5-10 years experience.
Pharmacy, lol. Please dont even.... they earn $90k IF they're lucky and experienced.
In the UK after your one year of training (I think you call it residency) the average dentist is on around $100k(bear in mind we'll be around 24/5) If you're a practice owner around $150k. Also, we will only be on around $75k debt. (every course in the Uk costs the same amount)
Unless you become a GP in the UK (which takes 6 years after med school and in which case youll be on around 130k) you probably wont earn as much as a dentist. Even consultants will be on around $140k
Private doctors are very very rare also.
The government capps dentistry and medicine numbers in the UK which is probably why they're so much harder to get into than pharm/optom etc in the UK compared to the US. The fact that any uni can open a pharmacy/optom school leads to saturation and thats why they're not as highly regarded or as wealthy.

 

[qqwerty10101]

At least quote an accurate figure: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/05/americans-believe-in-creationism_n_1571127.html
Although the true accuracy of these polls are still debatable.

even 46% lol
I think the US is a lot more 'diverse' since there is a much larger disparity between the rich and the poor. All the dentists and doctors I've met have said if you're interested in money take your degree to america/canada - the NHS starves us lol. I love the NHS though

 

[lmn]

even 46% lol
I think the US is a lot more 'diverse' since there is a much larger disparity between the rich and the poor. All the dentists and doctors I've met have said if you're interested in money take your degree to america/canada - the NHS starves us lol. I love the NHS though

Your comparisons of UK to US aren't very realistic or useful. The US is much larger (population and land wise) and has immensely different subcultures and regional differences. If you ask people in generally more well educated and progressive areas such as the West and East Coasts you will often find that barely anyone believes in creationism, and even if they do it is usually followed with an asterisk of their understanding of science and a way they tie in religious beliefs - for example: evolution with the inclusion of God. Also the NIH is great, but unfortunately the idea doesn't scale as easily and apply as simply to the US.

 

[YamNMangos]

In the UK engineering and law dont pay as much as dentistry unless you go to a top 5 uni and after a 5-10 years experience.
Pharmacy, lol. Please dont even.... they earn $90k IF they're lucky and experienced.
In the UK after your one year of training (I think you call it residency) the average dentist is on around $100k(bear in mind we'll be around 24/5) If you're a practice owner around $150k. Also, we will only be on around $75k debt. (every course in the Uk costs the same amount)
Unless you become a GP in the UK (which takes 6 years after med school and in which case youll be on around 130k) you probably wont earn as much as a dentist. Even consultants will be on around $140k
Private doctors are very very rare also.
The government capps dentistry and medicine numbers in the UK which is probably why they're so much harder to get into than pharm/optom etc in the UK compared to the US. The fact that any uni can open a pharmacy/optom school leads to saturation and thats why they're not as highly regarded or as wealthy.

I wasn't talking about the UK. In the US it's slightly different, for example, pharmacists get paid an average of $115k a year. http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/pharmacist/salary That being said, people have corrected my original misconceptions about the dentist training process, so dentistry is still a better option money-wise in the long run. Certain engineering and law professions pay about the same as, if not more than, dentistry (though most don't).

 

[hubriz]

I was under the impression that dental school is equally challenging to get into.

blah bla blah? Whats your point?

That was me substantiating my point. Blah blah blah always works.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

I dont think im getting to the crux of my question
Is Pharm and optom considered on the same 'level' of dentistry in terms of acceptance and difficulty? And is Dentistry considered on the same level of medicine for the same? In the US
Im sorry, but neither optometry school or pharmacy school is even comparable to the difficulty of medical/dental school in the UK. Optom is a three year degree and pharmacy is a 4 year degree. You dont have to take any entrance exam and your a levels can be anything from BCC to AAB and get accepted.
Not to mention dentists actually have to learn surgical skills.

Pharm and optometry are not the same "level" as you put it in the US. Neither is dentistry, although I think a lot of people would order it Med - Dent - Opto/Pharm.

But for your main concern, dentistry is not as prestigious as medicine in the US.

 

[lmn]

Pharm and optometry are not the same "level" as you put it in the US. Neither is dentistry, although I think a lot of people would order it Med - Dent - Opto/Pharm.

But for your main concern, dentistry is not as prestigious as medicine in the US.

And frankly who cares what the prestige order is unless you are getting into medicine for all the wrong reasons?

Those Dentists/Optometrists/Pharmacists I guarantee know their areas much better than the average physician, it is a huge overall health care team, physicians can't do it all and definitely don't know it all, so looking down on other professions because they are maybe easier to get into? That is a pretty uneducated and stupid belief to hold, especially as someone involved in healthcare that knows how critical each one of those professions are and how much more each of those professionals know about their areas of expertise than you do.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

And frankly who cares what the prestige order is unless you are getting into medicine for all the wrong reasons?

Those Dentists/Optometrists/Pharmacists I guarantee know their areas much better than the average physician, it is a huge overall health care team, physicians can't do it all and definitely don't know it all, so looking down on other professions because they are maybe easier to get into? That is a pretty uneducated and stupid belief to hold, especially as someone involved in healthcare that knows how critical each one of those professions are and how much more each of those professionals know about their areas of expertise than you do.

I agree. I think this "prestige" ranking just comes from difficulty of admission to programs. As for people wanting to do it for this reason and/or money, I don't see why not as long as they do their job well.