Underrepresented Minorities Misconceptions

[TriXStar]

So I had a question about URM's, since EVERYONE gave me an outdated answer in this boards I decided to email AAMC officials about it and this is what they replied:

Dr. Mr. Leon:

Thank you for your inquiry.

The AAMC no longer has a definition of "underrepresented minorities (URM)," which previously consisted of four designated racial and ethnic groups (Blacks, Mexican Americans, mainland Puerto Ricans, and Native Americans). In June 2003, the AAMC adopted the current definition of "underrepresented in medicine." An important feature of the AAMC's current definition is that it no longer identifies specific populations as underrepresented or as minorities. Rather, it provides a tool for medical schools to build and assess institutional diversity in which race and ethnicity can be components among other components, such as personal attributes, experiential factors, and demographics. Each medical school decides for itself what its policies are with respect to diversity, including race and ethnicity. For example, a particular institution may decide based on its own mission and goals that Cuban-born or Latino students generally would serve the diversity interests of the school. The same school may decide that, in addition, its diversity interests are served by encouraging enrollments of students from other traditionally underrepresented groups, such as African Americans and Native Americans. Another school might have completely different missions and goals and, therefore, different policies.

The AAMC has a URL on the definition. You can find it at: http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/start.htm

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[just one]

So I had a question about URM's, since EVERYONE gave me an outdated answer in this boards I decided to email AAMC officials about it and this is what they replied:

Dr. Mr. Leon:

Thank you for your inquiry.

The AAMC no longer has a definition of "underrepresented minorities (URM)," which previously consisted of four designated racial and ethnic groups (Blacks, Mexican Americans, mainland Puerto Ricans, and Native Americans). In June 2003, the AAMC adopted the current definition of "underrepresented in medicine." An important feature of the AAMC's current definition is that it no longer identifies specific populations as underrepresented or as minorities. Rather, it provides a tool for medical schools to build and assess institutional diversity in which race and ethnicity can be components among other components, such as personal attributes, experiential factors, and demographics. Each medical school decides for itself what its policies are with respect to diversity, including race and ethnicity. For example, a particular institution may decide based on its own mission and goals that Cuban-born or Latino students generally would serve the diversity interests of the school. The same school may decide that, in addition, its diversity interests are served by encouraging enrollments of students from other traditionally underrepresented groups, such as African Americans and Native Americans. Another school might have completely different missions and goals and, therefore, different policies.

The AAMC has a URL on the definition. You can find it at: http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/start.htm

I applaud you. Finally someone that didn't believe everything they read on these boards and actually did some research on their own. A quality far lacking in many.

 

[BBender716]

I applaud you. Finally someone that didn't believe everything they read on these boards and actually did some research on their own. A quality far lacking in many.

 

[greatnt249]

So I had a question about URM's, since EVERYONE gave me an outdated answer in this boards I decided to email AAMC officials about it and this is what they replied:

Dr. Mr. Leon:

Thank you for your inquiry.

The AAMC no longer has a definition of "underrepresented minorities (URM)," which previously consisted of four designated racial and ethnic groups (Blacks, Mexican Americans, mainland Puerto Ricans, and Native Americans). In June 2003, the AAMC adopted the current definition of "underrepresented in medicine." An important feature of the AAMC's current definition is that it no longer identifies specific populations as underrepresented or as minorities. Rather, it provides a tool for medical schools to build and assess institutional diversity in which race and ethnicity can be components among other components, such as personal attributes, experiential factors, and demographics. Each medical school decides for itself what its policies are with respect to diversity, including race and ethnicity. For example, a particular institution may decide based on its own mission and goals that Cuban-born or Latino students generally would serve the diversity interests of the school. The same school may decide that, in addition, its diversity interests are served by encouraging enrollments of students from other traditionally underrepresented groups, such as African Americans and Native Americans. Another school might have completely different missions and goals and, therefore, different policies.

The AAMC has a URL on the definition. You can find it at: http://www.aamc.org/meded/urm/start.htm

Seems to me they just made the concept of URM more vague than anything.

 

[just one]

Seems to me they just made the concept of URM more vague than anything.

I read it that they are leaving the decision up to the medical school so that they can incorporate the statistics of their surrounding area better. Makes sense to me since regions can vary greatly.

 

[TriXStar]

I read it that they are leaving the decision up to the medical school so that they can incorporate the statistics of their surrounding area better. Makes sense to me since regions can vary greatly.

Yes, this is exactly what they said, which is much better than just focusing on the 4 original minorities, now school can broaden their range of minorities included.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

Since the AAMC neglected to inform you, it's worth pointing out that the change only came about because of the U of M lawsuits - they do mention this at the URL they sent you. That document makes it pretty clear that their aim is to carry on the same policy while using a lot of vague verbiage to obscure that fact.

 

[09javcar]

Since the AAMC neglected to inform you, it's worth pointing out that the change only came about because of the U of M lawsuits - they do mention this at the URL they sent you. That document makes it pretty clear that their aim is to carry on the same policy while using a lot of vague verbiage to obscure that fact.

I love loopholes. First time I read this I got that same exact feeling. Just making it more vague to work around obstacles.

 

[Grand]

have a Q. Does in any terms being from a country which has extremely small

representatives in the medical filed helps you in application?

I mean for example Ad-Com takes a paper and ...Oh see he/she is from country

Armzrerbaniakstanialand We had never had any students from there. It would be

pretty interesting to have this student on the board....or nobody cares?

------------------------

Anyone seen any US medical student from Azerbaijan? Just wonder, because most of them go to

Oil/Math/Physics/CS Fields.

 

[KeyzerSoze]

have a Q. Does in any terms being from a country which has extremely small

representatives in the medical filed helps you in application?

I mean for example Ad-Com takes a paper and ...Oh see he/she is from country

Armzrerbaniakstanialand We had never had any students from there. It would be

pretty interesting to have this student on the board....or nobody cares?

------------------------

Anyone seen any US medical student from Azerbaijan? Just wonder, because most of them go to

Oil/Math/Physics/CS Fields.

Secondary applications often have a question asking how you would contribute to the diversity of the class.

 

[bannie22]

so anyone can declare URM now??? Loooolz....


(since its entirely up to the opinion of the student...)

 

[dingyibvs]

so anyone can declare URM now??? Loooolz....


(since its entirely up to the opinion of the student...)

Anyone always could, it just depends on whether the school thinks you're URM or not. One of my friends is full-Asian and he applied as a Hispanic and got in.

 

[Infinitydrop]

was he adopted or something?

 

[Narmerguy]

was he adopted or something?

Does it matter?

 

[dingyibvs]

was he adopted or something?

no, he's south asian, so he could sorta pass as one. Schools don't check anyway.

 

[schrizto]

lol, Dr. Mr. Leon.

 

[bannie22]

lol. its not even a cultural thing anymore. its just whether u can pass off as someone that the school believes to be urm in their area. silly.

 

[bannie22]

Does it matter?

it definitely to does. because if he isnt any where related to hispanic, and declared himself as one, that is ethically and morally wrong. in fact, its just plain completely wrong.

 

[NotSur]

.

 

[greatnt249]

I agree. I know a white non-Hispanic person who lied and said he was Hispanic and got in to college. I find this disgusting.

You say this as if he definitely would not have gotten in if not for this lie.

 

[dingyibvs]

it definitely to does. because if he isnt any where related to hispanic, and declared himself as one, that is ethically and morally wrong. in fact, its just plain completely wrong.

If he thinks AA is ethically and morally wrong, which he does, then he wouldn't feel it's completely wrong.

 

[280224]

dingybvs's friend shows how much of a joke AA is.

 

[UAAWolf]

sorry- but racism is ANY SPECIAL TREATMENT towards a specific race.

Let's say an applicant is asian...they're still a minority and may have endured some of the "hardships" minorities go through...but guess what? They're no the right type of minority! In fact they are over-represented! So let's make it harder for them to get into med school..even if they came from a poor family. Meanwhile, what if an African-American applies from an upper class family.

We all KNOW that a rich african-american can get in with much lower stats than a very poor asian student...and to me this is very wrong.


Until we start looking BEYOND COLOR we will always be racist...AA is not fixing anything sadly

 

[281261]

sorry- but racism is ANY SPECIAL TREATMENT towards a specific race.

Let's say an applicant is asian...they're still a minority and may have endured some of the "hardships" minorities go through...but guess what? They're no the right type of minority! In fact they are over-represented! So let's make it harder for them to get into med school..even if they came from a poor family. Meanwhile, what if an African-American applies from an upper class family.

We all KNOW that a rich african-american can get in with much lower stats than a very poor asian student...and to me this is very wrong.


Until we start looking BEYOND COLOR we will always be racist...AA is not fixing anything sadly

I agree. This is racism. I think maybe people will realize it sometime in the near future...just as we realized what was inherently wrong with slavery and abolished it in the states. It's not fair for blacks/hispanics or other "URMs" to get any special treatment with regards to admissions just because of their skin color/race.

 

[UAAWolf]

I agree. This is racism. I think maybe people will realize it sometime in the near future...just as we realized what was inherently wrong with slavery and abolished it in the states. It's not fair for blacks/hispanics or other "URMs" to get any special treatment with regards to admissions just because of their skin color/race

Most of my URM friends don't like AA and are ashamed by it because they feel like people will doubt them their entire career.

One of my black friends said, "Yeah sure I got into a great school...but I feel like people will always look at me and say, 'hey that black guy got in to med school because of AA!' "

I feel bad for him...cause he would have gotten in easily regardless of his race.

 

[AlexMorph]

Most of my URM friends don't like AA and are ashamed by it because they feel like people will doubt them their entire career.

One of my black friends said, "Yeah sure I got into a great school...but I feel like people will always look at me and say, 'hey that black guy got in to med school because of AA!' "

I feel bad for him...cause he would have gotten in easily regardless of his race.

This!

You make a great point. It's not about "Oh no! Such and such from xyz ethnicity got into med. school!" It's more a case of "He/she ONLY got here because of his/her ethnicity. Let's doubt their abilities and intelligence for the rest of their lives."

And for those who say that they don't care about what others say about them? Give it time. It will get to you, sooner or later.

 

[NotSur]

.

 

[bannie22]

i agree with lots of things said here.
i feel that URM status is just basically discrimination against those who are not.

but at the same time, its difficult to express such views in a community where there is much taboo regarding speaking out against minority races

so i applaud the people who have pointed that out.

i feel that everything shud be a level playing field despite your background, but well, at the same time there are communities that are underserved...

oh well, i guess its just complicated.

 

[09javcar]

at the same time there are communities that are underserved...

oh well, i guess its just complicated.

You got that right. I came from a poor community where our school offered NO honors courses and NO AP courses. Basically everyone whether higher achieving or not were placed in the same class, thus this inhibited smarter more applied students to excel due to the lack of effort by the mass high school community. I then transferred to a suburban HS and was shocked by the high ACT scores which correlated nothing to the brightness of a student, rather is showed that a student has been exposed to more material than peers in a HS only 10 miles away. I sometimes taught myself material that I wished was available to me in my old HS, which I had wish I stayed in, but sadly that is not the case.

 

[greatnt249]

I did not say that. I just thought it was important to mention that he got in.

"You say this as if he definitely would not have gotten in if not for this lie."

I never said that's what you definitively meant; I said that's how you came across.

 

[bannie22]

^

the question is that he LIED.

that application should have been VOID.

 

[TNK123]

The playing field is not level for everyone....If one runner trips his competition and causes him to twist his ankle, is it unfair to give that tripped runner an advantage? Another thing...the goal of the admissions committee is to produce a class of doctors who will serve the needs of the community. Unless a pre-med is willing to serve in places like Brooklyn, Atlanta, New Orleans or Oakland, I don't think they should hate on someone who is willing fulfill that need.

 

[bannie22]

^ yes it is unfair.

 

[TNK123]

So, in a related example, Nancy Kerrigan should have sucked it up and kept on skating? Hmmm, interesting. They're going to have to change sports as we know it..no more baseball walks for hitting the batter, not technical free throw shots... Anyways, you are ignoring the second part...are you willing to move to South Central LA after attending medical school? Ask all you friends...without giving context, where they will be working after medical school. Then go to a HBCU or SF and ask the same question...Then again, I may be under the mistaken impression that you think everyone deserves health care.

 

[bannie22]

^
i dont know who nancy kerrigan is.
i dont watch baseball

but i do know in racing sports
track/swim/f1

u jump the gun, ur DQ.

 

[280224]

Basing the idea that everyone's starting point or playing field is "unfair" on race is racist, period. A white male growing up in a shady neighborhood could have had as many or more problems as an URM who grew up in the same place.

 

[bannie22]

Basing the idea that everyone's starting point or playing field is "unfair" on race is racist, period. A white male growing up in a shady neighborhood could have had as many or more problems as an URM who grew up in the same place.

^

yes exactly my point.




guy who has been arguing about baseball. read all my posts.
i am ignoring ur 2nd point because i am lazy to respond to ppl who dont read.

 

[TNK123]

"i feel that everything shud be a level playing field despite your background, but well, at the same time there are communities that are underserved...

oh well, i guess its just complicated."


Yes, it is complicated... What's REALLY complicated is how people are sooo upset about AA when there are WAY more white and Asian premeds admitted to medical school with sub 30 numbers than there are URM...simply based on the number of URM applying and the preference given to State residents (See Texas) There are White Texans from dynasty families getting in medical school with lower numbers than URM in CA and NY. Where is the discontent over that?

 

[dw2158]

Unless a pre-med is willing to serve in places like Brooklyn, Atlanta, New Orleans or Oakland, I don't think they should hate on someone who is willing fulfill that need.

i'm not sure that sentence makes 100% sense, but i agree with what i think you're trying to say

this is why, to me, it would make more sense to base AA on socioeconomic status rather than race.

an interesting story about my first night at my (ivy league, FWIW) undergrad:

i did a community-service based pre-orientation program. there were about 40 of us in this program, and i think the people reading our applications did a good job getting a mix of people with different backgrounds. the first night we were there, we went on an outing to times square (yes, it pains me that i was once this touristy ). we eventually sat down in some ice cream place and chatted. there were 8 people sitting in my booth with me. i looked across the table and realized that i was one of only 2 white people there, which was of interest to me since i grew up in a very white, very provincial, very small new england town. but as the conversation drew on, i realized that the other white kid and i were also the only ones there who had gone to public schools.

do with that info what you will, i just remember my 17-year-old self finding that experience kind of interesting.

 

[MegaProjectile]

The playing field is not level for everyone....If one runner trips his competition and causes him to twist his ankle, is it unfair to give that tripped runner an advantage? Another thing...the goal of the admissions committee is to produce a class of doctors who will serve the needs of the community. Unless a pre-med is willing to serve in places like Brooklyn, Atlanta, New Orleans or Oakland, I don't think they should hate on someone who is willing fulfill that need.

It is been proven that blacks and hispanics go back to their communities to serve ( not 100% but majority do ) and great number specialize in primary care. These are mostly underserved communities that need healthcare access and physicians. I don't see Whites and Asians flooding to these communities to work. So medical schools will continue the trend of recruiting minorities to serve their communities.

Those who think this process is unfair or racist grossly misunderstand the role and mission of medical schools. Race plays a big role when comes to medical treatments received by blacks(and hispanics too). It ranges from inadequate treatment of illness to gross negligence mostly due to cultural differences or ignorance.
http://journals.lww.com/lww-medical...fluence_of_Black_Race_on_Treatment_and.8.aspx

Medical schools have a role in correcting this and one way they do this is by bringing in those from the said communities.


Finally, if schools do away with URM tomorrow, one's chance of getting in only improve by 1 to 3%. So basically, if you can't get in now, you still won't get in if it's done away with.

 

[MegaProjectile]

i'm not sure that sentence makes 100% sense, but i agree with what i think you're trying to say

this is why, to me, it would make more sense to base AA on socioeconomic status rather than race.

You can't base it solely on socioeconomic status. See my post above and the link.

 

[dw2158]

You can't base it solely on socioeconomic status. See my post above and the link.

i was just offering up some thoughts. no need for you to be officious about it. thanks for the interesting link.

 

[ensuii]

I like the idea of AA. I'm sure there are plenty of african-american, hispanic, native-american, etc., families that are upper/middle class. However, the (dare I say it?) majority of families belonging to this subgroup of America do not. I mean, seriously, are you trying to argue that considering the nature of the inner-city environment (substandard education evidenced by deficiencies in graduation rates and proficiency scores, crime, etc.), someone that grew up in Watts and made it through college shouldn't deserve more credence than the average applicant? Call me crazy, but I think that if you came from at least a middle class family from the suburbs, you've had the deck stacked in your favor from day 1. If you can't muster a 3.6GPA, 30MCAT, you're just not trying.

I'm first-generation Indian-American (dothead variety) for anyone that cares to wonder.

 

[09javcar]

I like the idea of AA. I'm sure there are plenty of african-american, hispanic, native-american, etc., families that are upper/middle class. However, the (dare I say it?) majority of families belonging to this subgroup of America do not. I mean, seriously, are you trying to argue that considering the nature of the inner-city environment (substandard education evidenced by deficiencies in graduation rates and proficiency scores, crime, etc.), someone that grew up in Watts and made it through college shouldn't deserve more credence than the average applicant? Call me crazy, but I think that if you came from at least a middle class family from the suburbs, you've had the deck stacked in your favor from day 1. If you can't muster a 3.6GPA, 30MCAT, you're just not trying.

I'm first-generation Indian-American (dothead variety) for anyone that cares to wonder.

That's exactly right. Not trying to sound an A** but I did come from a poor family. My dad made 5k a year the first few years he was here and we lived in a basement with no heater in 10 degree temperatures in the winter. I got pneumonia. Schools in the inner city SUCK and you can't even compare to the schools in the burbs where kids drive cars paid for by daddy and what not. If I become a doctor I know what people in the inner city suffer and I will return what has been given to me. IF I MAKE IT! I just hate seeing suburb kids think they are better because of money and having advantages to begin with. We need AA to introduce more kids, like me I suppose, who have struggled to get anywhere in life. I lost my girlfriend because of this and I'm just tired of it. But I do agree that AA is flawed in the fact that a lot of people taking advantage of AA are upper/middle class hispanic or black or what ever kids.

 

[dingyibvs]

I think this thread has degenerated into the biweekly SDN AA debate.

 

[chman]

It is been proven that blacks and hispanics go back to their communities to serve ( not 100% but majority do ) and great number specialize in primary care. These are mostly underserved communities that need healthcare access and physicians. I don't see Whites and Asians flooding to these communities to work. So medical schools will continue the trend of recruiting minorities to serve their communities.

Those who think this process is unfair or racist grossly misunderstand the role and mission of medical schools. Race plays a big role when comes to medical treatments received by blacks(and hispanics too). It ranges from inadequate treatment of illness to gross negligence mostly due to cultural differences or ignorance.
http://journals.lww.com/lww-medical...fluence_of_Black_Race_on_Treatment_and.8.aspx

Medical schools have a role in correcting this and one way they do this is by bringing in those from the said communities.


Finally, if schools do away with URM tomorrow, one's chance of getting in only improve by 1 to 3%. So basically, if you can't get in now, you still won't get in if it's done away with.

So how is this any different than a white man/ woman who is from the inner city/rural/ socioeconomically under-served area. They are just as likely to go back to where they are from. I say this as a white guy who has lived in the inner city most of his life.

Most "minorities" that I am friends with (I am usually the minority in my neighborhood), think that AA is a step back. It definitely was needed, but at this point in time it is doing more harm than good in my opinion. We will never be truly equal until we stop going out of our way to point out that we are different, which is what AA does.

Also, as it was touched on above, another thing that AA does is give ignorant people an excuse to believe that minorities only got to where they are (if in a position of success) because of AA. This is a disservice to all the hard working minorities that busted their hump to get where they are.

Anyways, that is my 2c.

EDIT: Op, I don't really see your point. The link says the same thing in different words as far as I can tell.

 

[greatnt249]

EDIT: Op, I don't really see your point. The link says the same thing in different words as far as I can tell.

Exactly; I was trying to say that it seems like all they did was reword their mission statement to make the URM selection process seem less blatant.

 

[281261]

I like the idea of AA. I'm sure there are plenty of african-american, hispanic, native-american, etc., families that are upper/middle class. However, the (dare I say it?) majority of families belonging to this subgroup of America do not. I mean, seriously, are you trying to argue that considering the nature of the inner-city environment (substandard education evidenced by deficiencies in graduation rates and proficiency scores, crime, etc.), someone that grew up in Watts and made it through college shouldn't deserve more credence than the average applicant? Call me crazy, but I think that if you came from at least a middle class family from the suburbs, you've had the deck stacked in your favor from day 1. If you can't muster a 3.6GPA, 30MCAT, you're just not trying.

I'm first-generation Indian-American (dothead variety) for anyone that cares to wonder.

Yes, "seriously" I am trying to argue just that. I respect those who had to endure such hardships but it's not fair to those who didn't grow up like that. It's not the fault of those who didn't grow up in such environments or if their families are well off. If you put it like that, then it's almost as if those who DIDN'T grow up like that are being disadvantaged because they aren't receiving "more credence" than the average applicant.

 

[nicole004]

ahh it's the AA debate again...

I see a lot of people are saying that a poor URM and a poor non-URM should be on the same level or that AA should be based on SES...for the most part I agree. However the one thing people are forgetting is that discrimination exists and that is why AA programs are needed. Sure two people may have grown up on the same block, but who do you think is going to be followed in the grocery store? profiled by the cops? coincidently brushed over for a job opp? etc.

To those that really feel AA gives that much of an advantage, let me ask...Would you like to switch? You grow up and live in the country as a URM just for what may be a slight advantage in med school admissions.

What are the chances you would have even made it this far?

 

[281261]

ahh it's the AA debate again...

I see a lot of people are saying that a poor URM and a poor non-URM should be on the same level or that AA should be based on SES...for the most part I agree. However the one thing people are forgetting is that discrimination exists and that is why AA programs are needed. Sure two people may have grown up on the same block, but who do you think is going to be followed in the grocery store? profiled by the cops? coincidently brushed over for a job opp? etc.

To those that really feel AA gives that much of an advantage, let me ask...Would you like to switch? You grow up and live in the country as a URM just for what may be a slight advantage in med school admissions.

What are the chances you would have even made it this far?

What does that have to do with gaining admissions to grad school?? Is this really what it's come down to, lol. I just think that makes no sense at all...to give someone preference because of the above reasons.