unethical / hateful behaviour among colleagues?

[mac_kin]

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[Tired]

How are you going to treat a patient who is homophobic or Muslim?

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

I've concluded that a few complete jerks make it into every medical school class. When the AIDS and human sexuality lectures started for my class, an "anonymous" survey was done by automated response recording - and I think something like 10 out of 162 thought that gays should be held in prison camps. I'm not sure all of them were just going for laughs. You're right... it's completely non-professional and you can only pray that those folks will go into a specialty where little patient bonding is required. The rest of my class had surprisingly open-minded attitudes given the part of the country where I live - and those are the people I made friends with, and those are the people whom I would allow to treat me.

I agree that people with attitudes and personalities that are totally incompatible with compassionate medical care for all patients shouldn't be admitted, but some interviewers are better at spotting the jerks than other interviewers. It won't change. Hopefully, your class is like mine - at least the percentage of fools and bigots is noticeably smaller than what is found in the population at large.

 

[Tired]

I agree that people with attitudes and personalities that are totally incompatible with compassionate medical care for all patients shouldn't be admitted, but some interviewers are better at spotting the jerks than other interviewers. It won't change. Hopefully, your class is like mine - at least the percentage of fools and bigots is noticeably smaller than what is found in the population at large.

You both miss the point.

Everybody in medicine treats people they hate, for whatever reason. I do prison physicals. You don't think I tell my staff what I think of them after they leave? But that doesn't mean I treat them disrespectfully in my office or provide anything less than the necessary standard of care.

Just because you think someone is a scumbag doesn't mean you can't be an effective physician for them.

 

[callisto1134]

But I found it just so immature and disrespectful when people say crap like "why do we always have to hear from the fa*s about how bad their life is because of aids". I heard a few "that's so sick" and "it's his own fault so why should I care comments".
Judging from the group that was making the comments - a few rural kids from one horse towns - I understood why they were being so stupid about it.

and these aids remarks are not the only thing. We also have a couple of guys who are VERY VERY ORTHODOX muslim. And I have overheard several times in elevators, the bathroom, comments like "why do they let so many chicks into med school?", "it's totally unprofessional and disgusting" (that the girls were wearing tank tops one day for one of our labs!), "the chicks will fail out anyway so we should have more male students" type of crap come out of their mouths.

Clearly, we all have our own preconceived notions and generalizations we carry with us. You for example, don’t characterize the first group, and I’m assuming, as white Christian guys who are close minded because they are Christian. The Muslims guys however, say stupid things because they are Muslim. It’s like saying, “a guy was walking down the street without an umbrella” versus, “a black guy was walking down the street without an umbrella.” Black is not a necessary adjective in this sentence, as it is irrelevant to his umbrella problem. Unless, his umbrella problem is due to being black, which clearly, it is not. Bigotry is bigotry regardless of who it comes from.

 

[michaelrack]

It's not unethical to believe that homosexual activity is disordered or deviant. I believe, however, that it was unethical for the OP's classmates to talk so disrespectfully about a lecturer to their class.

Patient's should be treated with respect, even if you disagree with their behavior/values.

 

[rachmoninov3]

Of course, it's behavior like that of your classmates which has landed us with the whole touchy feely ethics requirements. Sure enough after successfully completing those courses, everyone will turn out just like Patch Adams.

Seriously, I'm sorry that you had to witness this hatred from your classmates. However, it underscores the point that we are humans trying our best, whether it's practicing medicine or admitting people to medical school. It's never going to be perfect. One of the docs on my schools admissions committe says he stays up all night wondering about the people he's voted for, and whether or not they will be good physicians or d. bags. But he's human, and even when he's doing his best, he's still human.

 

[RxBoy]

Clearly, we all have our own preconceived notions and generalizations we carry with us. You for example, don't characterize the first group, and I'm assuming, as white Christian guys who are close minded because they are Christian. The Muslims guys however, say stupid things because they are Muslim. It's like saying, "a guy was walking down the street without an umbrella" versus, "a black guy was walking down the street without an umbrella." Black is not a necessary adjective in this sentence, as it is irrelevant to his umbrella problem. Unless, his umbrella problem is due to being black, which clearly, it is not. Bigotry is bigotry regardless of who it comes from.

Right on. I wonder how the OP would treat Muslim patients... Sounds to me the OP is making generalizations of their own.

 

[mac_kin]

 

[Tired]

The reason I specified "Muslims" in the second case is taht they infact are orthodox muslims who leave class to pray and are very disrespectful to women...and I think that at this point 99.9% of the world will agree that orthodox muslims are bred (brainwashed) to disrespect women. I have yet to meet an ortho muslim who isn't disrespectful...and I've known many...including going to a dinner for my work where the islamic dude's wife sat alone at a table while 'the men' sat together to discuss 'business' which turned out to be 'the world cup'. Needless to say, I left early, because I was very disgusted.

Yet another thread where the OP decries racism, then turns out to be racist himself . . .

 

[plainfacts]

How are you going to treat a patient who is homophobic or Muslim?

These are colleagues not patients.


As a med student you should stay low or send anonymous letters to whomever is in charge.

As an attending make sure you expose and get these people expelled. There are enough people who wants a career in medicine, so we do not need these people in our profession. As a doctor you should have a higher standard of behaviour than act in this way.

It is sad that the application process can't find better ways to expose these people when there is such a process in place meant to weed them out. Instead of people describing "their worst characteristics" and other useless questions interviewers need to start finding more novel approaches in exposing them. And asking "U liek gayzz, hehe???" which seem to be the way interviewers do these things is just incompetence. If most interviewers would be asked the question "What's your worst characteristic?" they should answer "I am useless at conducting interviews and just wasting everybodys time and money."

 

[AggieSean]

I have a feeling if such disparaging comments were made about rednecks with guns or white Christians there'd be no such outrage.

The poster above suggested getting them expelled. Now there's absolutely no doubt their behavior wasn't professional and they should be admonished if for nothing else voicing their sentiment at a very inappropriate time. But they're allowed to think what they want. As long as they treat their patients with respect (and you have yet to see them do otherwise, even though you may have reason to think that they will), their personal beliefs are frankly no ones business. As long as patient care isn't compromised, it doesn't matter.

 

[AggieSean]

The difference here is that my notions are not 'preconceived because of my parents raising me to be a hateful jerk', they are based on the facts I have experienced in this life.

Right so your bigotry is ok.

 

[OncoCaP]

I haven't seen anything like this. Our class is very respectful to the patients who visit our class. While nobody is perfect, this particular issue has not been a problem for our class as far as I can tell ... maybe that's because I'm in a progressive city ...

However, I did find this comment to be interesting:

"I know that homophobia exists everywhere, and I try to be as open-minded as possible but this just pissed me off because we are supposed to be HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS - educated, sophisticated people who will be treating everyone equally and fairly despite these differences plus we're studying in a VERY liberal city, where the majority of our class has already had contact with gay patients or with AIDS patients."

Clearly you are only trying being as open-minded as possible as long as other people share your values, as for example, about respecting men who have sex with men (and I would assume also women who have sex with women for that matter). In other words, you aren't being very open-minded about your classmates opinions (nor am I suggesting that you should be). That's the trouble with being as open-minded "as possible" ... 999 out of 1000 it turns out not to be a true statement. Perhaps it would be more accurate just to admit that you have very strongly held "absolute" values that patients with AIDS or gay/lesbian sexual orientation should be treated with respect in the sense that they should not be blamed for their illness on the basis of their sexuality, etc. anymore than a monogamous hetersexual who picked up HIV from a blood transfusion.

I'm not sure it's a bad thing to be "closed-minded" when it comes to behavior that is inconsistent with your values. We still have a responsibility to provide appropriate care no matter what. We will be caring for many patients who we have very little in common with and who make decisions that even the patient agrees are unwise and harmful.

 

[Slide]

Expelling is sort of extreme, but as students trained to be medical professionals where we're given a good bit of trust and autonomy, this sort of behavior does need to be addressed, and I do think the OP is right to be seriously concerned about such things. We med students are entitled to our opinions, no matter how brazen or polarizing they are, but if it's something bound to raise an eyebrow, they should keep it private and outside the bounds of their work/learning environment. People can be listening to convos inadvertently when you least expect it.

Although, in a lighter context, this can lead to some very humorous situations. One of my group members in small group gave our professor some very unflattering remarks. As she finished, she pointed towards the door to make emphasis, and as she did, the professor happened to walk in at that same moment. After an awkward silence, the professor and our group carried on a normal conversation, but I could tell everyone, including the professor, was trying to contain their surprise.

 

[TMP-SMX]

When do we get to be sophisticated?

 

[Jwax]

The poster above suggested getting them expelled. Now there's absolutely no doubt their behavior wasn't professional and they should be admonished if for nothing else voicing their sentiment at a very inappropriate time. But they're allowed to think what they want. As long as they treat their patients with respect (and you have yet to see them do otherwise, even though you may have reason to think that they will), their personal beliefs are frankly no ones business. As long as patient care isn't compromised, it doesn't matter.

Well said. We're all going to make fun of our patients to our colleagues for some reason at some point in time. Some of the times, it will be PC; most of the time probably not so much. I can see why the OP would be irritated by both the aids/homosexual issue and the anti-female issue, but we're certainly going to have patients who aren't pleased with a woman treating them. We just have to accept & deal with that... or you can go into OBGYN where all your patients want women doctors .

 

[AggieSean]

We're all going to make fun of our patients to our colleagues for some reason at some point in time. Some of the times, it will be PC; most of the time probably not so much.

In my very brief clinical experience (ED scribe for a year), I found that physicians and nurses can make some of the most unprofessional and inappropriate comments that I wouldn't have even thought. Is it tacky and technically inappropriate? Of course. But it's also because they deal with a nonstop onslaught of BS from day one and have to learn how to cope or they'll never function effectively (so I'm told, and I believe it). At the same time, I've never met people more dedicated to saving lives and working their tails off for the benefit of really sick people in dire straits. We all say and do things that aren't very becoming, it seems that where you say it and how it effects your treatment of others that's the key.

 

[TMP-SMX]

In my very brief clinical experience (ED scribe for a year), I found that physicians and nurses can make some of the most unprofessional and inappropriate comments that I wouldn't have even thought. Is it tacky and technically inappropriate? Of course. But it's also because they deal with a nonstop onslaught of BS from day one and have to learn how to cope or they'll never function effectively (so I'm told, and I believe it). At the same time, I've never met people more dedicated to saving lives and working their tails off for the benefit of really sick people in dire straits. We all say and do things that aren't very becoming, it seems that where you say it and how it effects your treatment of others that's the key.

I think that's partly more common with EM in general. It's a bit of a coping mechanism.

 

[bcat85]

These are colleagues not patients.


As a med student you should stay low or send anonymous letters to whomever is in charge.

As an attending make sure you expose and get these people expelled. There are enough people who wants a career in medicine, so we do not need these people in our profession. As a doctor you should have a higher standard of behaviour than act in this way.

It is sad that the application process can't find better ways to expose these people when there is such a process in place meant to weed them out. Instead of people describing "their worst characteristics" and other useless questions interviewers need to start finding more novel approaches in exposing them. And asking "U liek gayzz, hehe???" which seem to be the way interviewers do these things is just incompetence. If most interviewers would be asked the question "What's your worst characteristic?" they should answer "I am useless at conducting interviews and just wasting everybodys time and money."

What is it with you and getting people expelled? This isn't junior high school. You don't get expelled for being a d*** or a bigot or a racist or an abortionist or a pro-lifer. You get expelled for cheating and sneaking drugs and punching patients. How do you propose figuring out who harbors a little prejudice? There was a guy at LECOM who wanted to import a child to molest and start a new society. If you can't catch that, how are you going to catch a little homophobia? I crack a couple gay and black jokes every once in a while, but that doesn't mean I'm a bigot or a racist... I just ask that people have a tiny bit of humor about themselves.

I have to admit.. the idea of two men engaging in anal intercourse is an unpleasant thought and is even.. and see if you can follow... "weird" to me. There is no way on this planet that you are as big of a tool as you portray yourself to be on SDN. It just can't be. Sexual deviance is part of our society and its called deviance for a reason. I'll always treat patients the same no matter what, but, like Tired said, that doesn't mean I'm not going to voice my opinion in private. C'mon. Get off your self-righteous horse and try to remember that you are not God's gift to medicine and you're not the Pope.

 

[RxBoy]

Yet another thread where the OP decries racism, then turns out to be racist himself . . .

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[plainfacts]

What is it with you and getting people expelled? This isn't junior high school. You don't get expelled for being a d*** or a bigot or a racist or an abortionist or a pro-lifer.

Then junior high school has higher expectations of it's students than med school. How do do you know anyway? You've been in med school for one week and you are already an expert in how medical school works? You think you can dress up like Hitler and march the corridors without getting expelled?

You get expelled for cheating and sneaking drugs and punching patients. How do you propose figuring out who harbors a little prejudice? There was a guy at LECOM who wanted to import a child to molest and start a new society. If you can't catch that, how are you going to catch a little homophobia? I crack a couple gay and black jokes every once in a while, but that doesn't mean I'm a bigot or a racist...

Yes, it does.

Seems like we catched one here.

I just ask that people have a tiny bit of humor about themselves.

Sure you can ask and I hate your "gay & black jokes".

I have to admit.. the idea of two men engaging in anal intercourse is an unpleasant thought and is even.. and see if you can follow... "weird" to me.

Thanks for clarifying to me what "weird" sexuality is. I indulge in however much homosexual I feel like, regardless of what you (or your book) think.

Sexual deviance is part of our society and its called deviance for a reason.

What is the importance in labeling it deviance?

I'll always treat patients the same no matter what,

Yeah, and then just crack a little joke about them when they are not listening. Especially if they're gay or black.

but, like Tired said,

Tired is not a good role model for a future physician. His sexually frustrated whining on nurses should give you a hint of that.

that doesn't mean I'm not going to voice my opinion in private.

I'd rather have the psysician talk to me than behind my back.

C'mon. Get off your self-righteous horse and try to remember that you are not God's gift to medicine and you're not the Pope.

Don't know where you got the idea that was my intent.

I think you should focus more on the needs of the patients than your "rights as physician."

 

[ZonaRidicularis]

z

 

[OncoCaP]

... You've been in med school for one week and you are already an expert in how medical school works? You think you can dress up like Hitler and march the corridors without getting expelled?

...
I think you should focus more on the needs of the patients than your "rights as physician."

What exactly is your status? Have you ever held a full-time job? Perhaps you live outside the U.S. and there is a cultural barrier here in the communication. Your concerns remind me of someone mortified to see jaywalkers or littering -- crimes indeed but usually not something people get worked up about ... well below the filter threshold of most people. I'm not sure if that's just because your background is exclusively academic, you have a burning desire to change the world, or simply don't have very little experience relevant to medical school, healthcare, or life in general (or maybe you live outside the U.S. as I wonder above).

While I too would like medical students and physicians to exemplify virtue in thousands of ways (and often they do), I'm not exactly shocked or offended when they don't; I realize there is the ideal and then there is reality which is not ideal. People have different approaches to life; not everyone follows the same rules / values and even then there is compliance to varying extents. Some lie, cheat, steal, push, curse, trip, argue, deceive, shove, etc. at every opportunity and others appear to be examples of virtue and perfection as far as anyone can tell. Medicine attracts all kinds of people and the medical school interview process never has and probably never will be a perfect "moral" filter.

 

[MrBurns10]

What bothered me about the OP's story wasn't that his classmates think gay sex is "sick" or gross, it's that they said things like "it's his fault so why should I care" and used derogatory terms like "***." People can believe what they want to believe and agree or disagree with any of their patients' behaviors...but saying or implying that a disease or other negative outcome was the patient's fault so why should they care is a belief that shouldn't be tolerated because that mindset can easily affect one's treatment of patients. And the use of the term "***" really bothers me too. I imagine that no one on here would be okay with the n-word to describe black people, and it's no different to me. I wish more parents would teach their kids not to be disrespectful or demeaning, even if they don't agree with the other person.

 

[45408]

Goodwin's Law in full effect!

"As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Good catch. Too bad it wasn't invoked in conjunction with Burnett's Law.

 

[RisingSun]

Who cares what your other classmates think? Just be the best and most compassionate physician that your protoplasm will allow. Although I don't agree with the sentiments of your colleagues, the diversity of opinion in our profession bodes well because we won't all be seeing the same patients.

 

[bcat85]

Then junior high school has higher expectations of it's students than med school. How do do you know anyway? You've been in med school for one week and you are already an expert in how medical school works? You think you can dress up like Hitler and march the corridors without getting expelled?

Godwin's Law.. yesssssss..
and because I don't have my head in my butt. It's obvious that you don't get expelled for something like this. If you call a patient a ***, you're not in good shape, but having a laugh about a little butt-lovin never hurt anyone.

Yes, it does.

Seems like we catched one here.

You can't possibly be from America.


Sure you can ask and I hate your "gay & black jokes".

Good. If you want, I can PM you as many as you would like... you can use them to build yourself a bubble of self-righteousness

Thanks for clarifying to me what "weird" sexuality is. I indulge in however much homosexual I feel like, regardless of what you (or your book) think.

Cool man. I never said anything about religion though. I just think it's weird for men to have anal sex. And again... you have to be foreign.

What is the importance in labeling it deviance?

You'll have to ask the APA about that.

Yeah, and then just crack a little joke about them when they are not listening. Especially if they're gay or black.

You clearly missed my point. Being gay or black doesn't matter to me really. I just find humor in gay/black/mexican/white/man/woman/chinese/insert ethnicity or group here jokes. Not because I honestly believe those things to be true, but because I have, and I'm sure you don't understand this, a sense of humor.

Tired is not a good role model for a future physician. His sexually frustrated whining on nurses should give you a hint of that.

You are though right?

I'd rather have the psysician talk to me than behind my back.

I would imagine that your psysician can speak to you trancendentally.

Don't know where you got the idea that was my intent.

I think you should focus more on the needs of the patients than your "rights as physician."
I think you should focus more on becoming a physician (psysician) than on whether medical students laugh at gay jokes.

.

 

[Dirt]

Dirt's Law:

Every population, including medical students and doctors, has their POSs (pieces of $hit) and their overly sensitive ninnys.

Anyone who thinks that getting into medical school either makes you a better person or means that you are one is naive.

 

[njbmd]

WHat the hell is going on in admissions? I just feel this is not safe - how is the sexist islamic guy going to behave when he has to treat a 13 year old girl? How is the homophobic chick going to act when her first patient is a gay man with AIDS? It's just ridiculous!

Well, you got in so we admissions folk must be doing something right, eh?

Expelling is sort of extreme, but as students trained to be medical professionals where we're given a good bit of trust and autonomy, this sort of behavior does need to be addressed, and I do think the OP is right to be seriously concerned about such things. We med students are entitled to our opinions, no matter how brazen or polarizing they are, but if it's something bound to raise an eyebrow, they should keep it private and outside the bounds of their work/learning environment. People can be listening to convos inadvertently when you least expect it.

Although, in a lighter context, this can lead to some very humorous situations. One of my group members in small group gave our professor some very unflattering remarks. As she finished, she pointed towards the door to make emphasis, and as she did, the professor happened to walk in at that same moment. After an awkward silence, the professor and our group carried on a normal conversation, but I could tell everyone, including the professor, was trying to contain their surprise.

There is a time a place for humor as long as one is professional when it comes to patient care. One of the great things about becoming an adult is that one has the freedom to "think" anything that comes to mind but open mouth or writing these things is an entirely different affair.

I have a feeling if such disparaging comments were made about rednecks with guns or white Christians there'd be no such outrage.

The poster above suggested getting them expelled. Now there's absolutely no doubt their behavior wasn't professional and they should be admonished if for nothing else voicing their sentiment at a very inappropriate time. But they're allowed to think what they want. As long as they treat their patients with respect (and you have yet to see them do otherwise, even though you may have reason to think that they will), their personal beliefs are frankly no ones business. As long as patient care isn't compromised, it doesn't matter.

Agree with the above as at some point, the "open mouth and remove foot" characteristic will get many folks in more trouble that they can realize. It's always better just to keep your mouth shut and let you brain go on in any direction.

 

[vtucci]

To the OP, I understand your frustrations with displays of unprofessional behavior. I agree that it is inappropriate for members of the medical profession (at any level of training) to use offensive language in reference to a patient. Is it done frequently as a defense or release mechanism-- sure. Does that make it right? No. As a student, it can be difficult to tell attendings and residents that you do not appreciate that brand of humor. There are politics involved. However, when you are the attending, you will set the tone and you will teach medical students what you believe is and is not acceptable behavior.

I would suggest that the OP try to maintain the highest standards and lead by example. Unfortunately, OP has already overgeneralized by stating that 99.9% of orthodox muslim men are disrespectful to women. Indeed, men who have read the Koran should be particularly respectful toward women as women are thought to inhabit a higher spiritual plane than men. That being said, there is a difference between religion and culture. I believe OP was probably caught up by the culture of his/her classmates. Even so, we get into trouble when we overstate.

I have seen far more ignorance regarding obesity than HIV in my medical school class but there is a theme of obese patients as responsible. There is more compassion for people infected with HIV than for the obese (possibly because almost all students have had sex and there but the grace of God or a condom not breaking go I and many cannot relate to being overweight).

Having struggled with my weight all of my life and ultimately resorting to surgery, I find it extremely irritating how many doctors and medical students blame the patient for being obese and assume automatically that they are lying about caloric intake, exercise regimens etc. We are only now starting to understand all the nuances that go into the obesity epidemic. This is not to say that there are not a large number of patients whose behavior is the primary reason for their situation. I would even agree that behavioral issues account for a majority of obese patients. Majority but not all. Obesity is quickly becoming the last "acceptable" prejudice in America and is echoed in the healthcare provided to many obese patients.

All patients deserve our best efforts regardless of our personal feelings about their race, gender, religion, sexual orientation or other differences from us. I would caution everyone to take care in safeguarding those prejudices or preconceived notions that many of us harbor. Patients can tell when you do not respect them or like them and that can certainly impact the rapport and the likelihood that they will follow through with your advice.

 

[Tired]

There is a time a place for humor as long as one is professional when it comes to patient care. One of the great things about becoming an adult is that one has the freedom to "think" anything that comes to mind but open mouth or writing these things is an entirely different affair.

And one of the great things about being an American is the right to think and speak as you choose.

Taking the OP's post at face value (and I have serious reservations about that, since I think is likely a fake story intended to inflame people, rather than something that really happened) the students in question had a private conversation that was overheard.

They have every right to say and think whatever they want outside of professional situations. They can make whatever jokes they want, and think or say whatever they want about female classmates on their own time.

OP: Complain all you want, it don't matter.

 

[michaelrack]

You think you can dress up like Hitler and march the corridors without getting expelled?

You might be able to get away with that at a British medical school, but probably not an American one http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,336667,00.html

 

[michaelrack]

As an attending make sure you expose and get these people expelled. ."

plainfacts, you should probably avoid becoming an attending at a southern medical school, or conservative medical students may gang up on you, give you bad evaluations, and get you fired.

 

[Trismegistus4]

Yet another thread where the OP decries racism, then turns out to be racist himself . . .

For the 348723987th time, Islam is a religion, not a race.

It's not unethical to believe that homosexual activity is disordered or deviant.

As an attending make sure you expose and get these people expelled. There are enough people who wants a career in medicine, so we do not need these people in our profession. As a doctor you should have a higher standard of behaviour than act in this way.

As you can see, Dr. Rack, there are people who believe it's unethical to believe that homosexual activity is disordered or deviant. Some of them are probably on the faculty at US medical schools. Heck, I recently had a poster on SDN threaten to attempt to get me expelled for saying we should stop Mexican immigration.

It is sad that the application process can't find better ways to expose these people when there is such a process in place meant to weed them out. Instead of people describing "their worst characteristics" and other useless questions interviewers need to start finding more novel approaches in exposing them. And asking "U liek gayzz, hehe???" which seem to be the way interviewers do these things is just incompetence. If most interviewers would be asked the question "What's your worst characteristic?" they should answer "I am useless at conducting interviews and just wasting everybodys time and money."

I've been saying for a while that as soon as adcoms think the "freedom of conscience" defense will no longer fly, they will start grilling interviewees point-blank to make sure their social views are sufficiently liberal. plainfacts' post is evidence that there are people who want this to happen.

People can believe what they want to believe and agree or disagree with any of their patients' behaviors...but saying or implying that a disease or other negative outcome was the patient's fault so why should they care is a belief that shouldn't be tolerated because that mindset can easily affect one's treatment of patients.

While saying "why should I care" goes a bit too far, it is indeed their own damn fault. Would that the medical establishment would acknowledge that. Listening to the AIDS "experts," one would never know that this life-threatening disease can be entirely prevented merely by hewing to certain behavioral standards.

 

[bcat85]

I've been saying for a while that as soon as adcoms think the "freedom of conscience" defense will no longer fly, they will start grilling interviewees point-blank to make sure their social views are sufficiently liberal. plainfacts' post is evidence that there are people who want this to happen.

Plainfacts could make a large donation to his medical school of choice. They could get themselves some of these to help prevent this.

 

[MrBurns10]

While saying "why should I care" goes a bit too far, it is indeed their own damn fault. Would that the medical establishment would acknowledge that. Listening to the AIDS "experts," one would never know that this life-threatening disease can be entirely prevented merely by hewing to certain behavioral standards.

I don't necessarily have a problem with people just saying "it's his fault"...while I don't always agree with the sentiment, I've had similar thoughts regarding drug abusers and alcoholics, so I can understand where it comes from.

Random aside: Not to turn this into a political discussion (and I'm not saying this specifically to you since I don't know your views on this), but I think for people/politicians to approve abstinence-only education and yet condemn or blame those who get STDs like AIDS is ridiculous. Education needs to start early to promote good practices.

 

[bcat85]

I don't necessarily have a problem with people just saying "it's his fault"...while I don't always agree with the sentiment, I've had similar thoughts regarding drug abusers and alcoholics, so I can understand where it comes from.

Random aside: Not to turn this into a political discussion (and I'm not saying this specifically to you since I don't know your views on this), but I think for people/politicians to approve abstinence-only education and yet condemn or blame those who get STDs like AIDS is ridiculous. Education needs to start early to promote good practices.

I'll agree with that. Sex ed is important, but this applies less so to HIV and more so to other more mundane STD's like chlamydia, gonorrhea, herpes, etc. Most people who get HIV are either IV drug users or MSM (though ~175k have contracted it through "high risk heterosexual activity"... I'm not sure exactly how they define this though).

 

[45408]

(though ~175k have contracted it through "high risk heterosexual activity"... I'm not sure exactly how they define this though).

buttsex, orgies, swingers?

 

[plainfacts]

plainfacts, you should probably avoid becoming an attending at a southern medical school, or conservative medical students may gang up on you, give you bad evaluations, and get you fired.

Dear Michael Rack, MD.
What is your problem with unprofessional medical students getting expelled for making racist & sexist comments? I have no interest is going to southern america to work, but if I would and if I'd get fired I can handle it. It would be of no big deal to me.

I see some people here think it is OK for medical students to have whatever values they want. At the same time it is not OK for me have the opinion that these people expelled. Do I sense double standards here?

And bcat85, no I am not american and currently have no aspiration to set foot on US soil. As I am certain you are aware of, humans on other parts of the planet are people too. We have doctors and we have medical schools and we produce extremely competent physicians. In my country it is even possible to make 500 000$/year as a psychiatrist so we are doing just fine financially, if money is what you are after. And great work putting your comments in quotes so I can't quote you.

 

[bcat85]

Dear Michael Rack, MD.
What is your problem with unprofessional medical students getting expelled for making racist & sexist comments? I have no interest is going to southern america to work, but if I would and if I'd get fired I can handle it. It would be of no big deal to me.

I see some people here think it is OK for medical students to have whatever values they want. At the same time it is not OK for me have the opinion that these people expelled. Do I sense double standards here?

And bcat85, no I am not american and currently have no aspiration to set foot on US soil. As I am certain you are aware of, humans on other parts of the planet are people too. We have doctors and we have medical schools and we produce extremely competent physicians. In my country it is even possible to make 500 000$/year as a psychiatrist so we are doing just fine financially, if money is what you are after. And great work putting your comments in quotes so I can't quote you.

Dude.. I wanna be where you're at. I mean not exactly, but... oh screw it. You're just making this up. No country has an average psychiatrist making 500k a year. You gave yourself away with the "I see some people here think it is ok for medical students to have whatever values they want" deal. Reveal yourself. Who are you really?

 

[plainfacts]

Dude.. I wanna be where you're at. I mean not exactly, but... oh screw it. You're just making this up. No country has an average psychiatrist making 500k a year. You gave yourself away with the "I see some people here think it is ok for medical students to have whatever values they want" deal. Reveal yourself. Who are you really?

I didn't say it was average.

 

[Tired]

I see some people here think it is OK for medical students to have whatever values they want. At the same time it is not OK for me have the opinion that these people expelled. Do I sense double standards here?

Nobody has suggested you have no right to your opinion, it's just a general consensus that you're an idiot for having it. There's a difference.

 

[AggieSean]

I see some people here think it is OK for medical students to have whatever values they want. At the same time it is not OK for me have the opinion that these people expelled. Do I sense double standards here?

So we should be expelled because you have determined our values to be incongruent with being a physician? So all physicians should be unbiased, completely objective individuals? No one would graduate medical school. We're all biased and we all have opinions, and we're all (in this country) absolutely allowed to those opinions. Some people don't like fat people or white people or people from Oregon, etc. As long as their beliefs don't affect their treatment of patients (medicinally or personally), it's not an issue. Diversity is a two-way street, my friend.

 

[michaelrack]

deleted

 

[plainfacts]

So we should be expelled because you have determined our values to be incongruent with being a physician? So all physicians should be unbiased, completely objective individuals? No one would graduate medical school. We're all biased and we all have opinions, and we're all (in this country) absolutely allowed to those opinions. Some people don't like fat people or white people or people from Oregon, etc. As long as their beliefs don't affect their treatment of patients (medicinally or personally), it's not an issue. Diversity is a two-way street, my friend.

Sure we're allowed to have opinions. Medical schools are also allowed to expel unprofessional medical students.

Physicians should at least attempt to be as unbiased as possible. That is a part of professionalism. bcat85 doesn't want to stop his gay/black jokes because he has humor.

As well as a physician should strive to be as knowledgeable as possible he should strive to be as professional as possible. Accepting low morals when you can do something about it, is just poor character.

 

[plainfacts]

Nobody has suggested you have no right to your opinion, it's just a general consensus that you're an idiot for having it. There's a difference.

So you don't really think I am an idiot, you just disagree with my opinion. There's a difference.

 

[Tired]

So you don't really think I am an idiot, you just disagree with my opinion. There's a difference.

No.

There are people I frequently disagree with, but whom I do not think are idiots. Panda is a great example. Miami Med. Intelligent people with well thought-out opinions on a variety of topics, but whom I happen to disagree with. Great posters, no doubt great docs, but not my cup of tea on a variety of issues.

Then there are others, whose opinions are so assinine that they essentially hang the "idiot" sign on their own necks.

You're up there with "18 MCAT, Still Have a Chance?!?!?!?!" and "OD vs DO, Which is Better?" folks.

Congratulations, it's a pretty elite group.

 

[plainfacts]

No.

There are people I frequently disagree with, but whom I do not think are idiots. Panda is a great example. Miami Med. Intelligent people with well thought-out opinions on a variety of topics, but whom I happen to disagree with. Great posters, no doubt great docs, but not my cup of tea on a variety of issues.

Then there are others, whose opinions are so assinine that they essentially hang the "idiot" sign on their own necks.

You're up there with "18 MCAT, Still Have a Chance?!?!?!?!" and "OD vs DO, Which is Better?" folks.

Congratulations, it's a pretty elite group.

You know what Tired? I don't really care that you think I am an idiot. I simply disagree with you and feel content that I am right.

 

[francisco84]

Plainfacts may want to expel people from school for having different opinions. I guess that is cool in whatever banana republic he is from. All I want is plainfacts banned from this forum... is there any sort of appeal/petition process for this? He is seriously ruining potentially good threads.