Are graduates of the University of Queensland's Ochsner Program recognized for licensure by the medical boards of all 50 US States?
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Are graduates of the University of Queensland's Ochsner Program recognized for licensure by the medical boards of all 50 US States?
I recently looked into the program however I have decided not to apply. The Ochsner students are currently not eligible to practice in California (per the application: i. UQ is in the process of making an application for recognition to the Medical Board of California. Graduates of the UQ-Ochsner program would not be allowed to become licensed in California at this time.) or New York (read it somewhere online, schools must be on a list of medical schools approved to conduct long-term clinical electives outside the country where the school is located, UQ Ochsner is NOT on this list).
$208,000 is a lot of money to ask for a program that isn't recognized by all 50 states. If you want to study medicine at the University of Queensland the best bet is to apply to traditional 4-year program that is conducted entirely in Australia.
These comments could not be further from the truth and are embarrassingly misleading. To that effect, be careful whom you listen to on this website. Do you want to know the source that Medico290 is referring to? Notice it's a mere FORUM.
http://www.valuemd.com/australian-medical-schools/194059-uq-ochsner-ny-medical-boards.html
The FOUR-YEAR medical program undertaken at UQ IN AUSTRALIA allows you to do up to three of your 8-week (up to 24 weeks) core clerkships during 3rd- and 4th-year overseas (e.g. in America, Malaysia).
If you are in the UQ-Ochsner program, however, you spend years 1+2 in Australia and 3+4 in the States, with the exception that one clerkship is undertaken here in Australia. It's actually a beautifully constructed program. This has absolutely nothing to do with licensing and/or practicing medicine in any particular state once you finish medical school. The only factor that will determine where you can practice in the States is your person (AND your USMLE scores + research, etc.).
Just found this in a memo to residency directors in New York from the State of New York Department of Health:
Medical School Education / Clinical Clerkships
Previous guidance required that each facility verify all U.S. clerkships completed by graduates of international medical schools. Verification of clerkship attendance and dates of rotations were required for each facility at which a clerkship took place. Effective immediately, facilities will no longer be required to verify such information for candidates entering accredited residency programs.
Current Department of Health (DOH) regulations (10NYCRR, Section 405.4(f)(1)(ii)) do limit the eligibility of post-graduate trainees whose medical education included more than 12 weeks of clerkship training outside of the country where the medical school is located unless that medical school is approved by the NYSED. Facilities must review applications, transcripts or other documentation to determine if a candidate participated in clerkships of more than 12 weeks. The NYSED has approved the following medical schools for clerkships of more than 12 weeks. The listing of approved medical schools is periodically updated and available on the NYSED website at http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/med/medforms.htm
• American University of Antigua, Antigua
• American University of the Caribbean, St. Martin, Netherland Antilles
• The Autonomous University of Guadalajara, Guadalajara, Mexico
• English Language Program, University of Debrecen, Medical and Health Science Center,
Medical School, Debrecen, Hungary
• English Language Program, Medical University of Lublin, Lublin, Poland
• English Language Program, Medical University of Silesia, Katowice, Poland
• Fatima College of Medicine, Manila, Philippines
• International Health and Medicine Program, Ben Gurion University of the Negrev, Beer-
Sheva, Israel
• Kasturba Medical College, Manipal, India
• Medical University of the Americas/Nevis, Nevis, West Indies
• Ross University School of Medicine, Roseau, Dominica
• Saba University School of Medicine, Saba, Netherland Antilles
• St. George's University School of Medicine, St. George's, Grenada
• St. Matthew's University School of Medicine, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands
√ Medical students whose medical education included more than 12 weeks outside of the country where the medical school is located are ineligible to participate in post-graduate training programs in New York State if the medical school is not approved by the NYSED for extended clerkships.
Also in the FAQs:
Q: How would a facility review a candidate's application to determine if clinical clerkship training would meet NYS requirements?
A: Facilities would need to review a chronology of the candidates medical school education to determine if the training included more than 12 weeks of clinical clerkship training outside of the country where the medical school is located. If more than 12 weeks of clinical clerkship training did occur outside of the country where the school is located, then that medical school must be approved by the NYSED.
I am wondering why MedEdPath, Dr. Pinsky, and University of Queensland failed to mention this. It is a bit concerning because many students in the program are from New York, there is heavy recruitment for the program taking place in New York, and MedEdPath is based in New York.
If there is other information that I am unaware of please let me know. I would like clarification if I am mistaken.
I attached the original memo to this post.
√ Medical students whose medical education included more than 12 weeks outside of the country where the medical school is located are ineligible to participate in post-graduate training programs in New York State if the medical school is not approved by the NYSED for extended clerkships.[/SIZE
I think you guys might be having a bit of difficulty understanding what this means:
UQ-Ochsner students' third- and fourth-year clerkships are done at Ochsner Medical Center in Louisiana. Graduates receive degrees recognizing both UQ AND Ochsner as contributory medical institutions. UQ and Ochsner Medical Center are recognized for the pre-clinical and clinical components, respectively, and the one eight-week clerkship that Ochsner students do in Australia is not in violation of the clause, since the remainder of the clerkships are undertaken in the US at Ochsner (or other institutions), which has already been approved as a second host institution.
Nevertheless, the program is worth it. Some of the USMLE scores that have been generated here have been astounding.
Graduates receive degrees recognizing both UQ AND Ochsner as contributory medical institutions.
Now. I've only looked into NY & California and UQ Ochsner graduates are ineligible to practice in BOTH places. I'm sure there are more places that won't allow them either. Texas & Florida are known to be fairly strict when it comes to approving IMGs for licensure.
I think you guys might be having a bit of difficulty understanding what this means:
UQ-Ochsner students' third- and fourth-year clerkships are done at Ochsner Medical Center in Louisiana. Graduates receive degrees recognizing both UQ AND Ochsner as contributory medical institutions. UQ and Ochsner Medical Center are recognized for the pre-clinical and clinical components, respectively, and the one eight-week clerkship that Ochsner students do in Australia is not in violation of the clause, since the remainder of the clerkships are undertaken in the US at Ochsner (or other institutions), which has already been approved as a second host institution.
Nevertheless, the program is worth it. Some of the USMLE scores that have been generated here have been astounding.
Hi all.
I am the Academic Officer for the Ochsner Student Medical Association which represents the UQ-Ochsner cohort. I apologize that I do not have enough time to write a longer more detailed post.
However, in short, there is absolutely no restriction to our licensure or ability to do residency in any state in the US. Many of the posters above got it right.
I read the MEP application and the statement at the end is simply incorrect. I will be frank when I say that their ability to disseminate accurate information about the program is less than adequate. They are often a step behind and make assumptions from time to time. This is NOT reflective of the program - they are merely an application processing service that is a third party and otherwise completely independent from the program.
Moving on. I have personally researched California specifically, and read all the relevant legalese. It was extremely tedious and onerous. However, I can assure you that there is no issue there. Additionally, the dean of the SoM just in January went and spoke with the MBC in person and was told that there was no problem with us obtaining license or residency there. The issues that remain are simply to streamline the process because of a couple of extra requirements that CA has - we satisfy both, but merely wish to make the process more streamlined.
As for NY - I have not researched this specifically myself. However, I can see no reason why we would have an issue there. I am well aware of the 12 week rule. We all have from the beginning. Others have told me it would be no issue. But moreso, the answer is very simple:
UQ grants the degree, not Ochsner.
UQ is approved on the FAIMER list.
The program is accredited as a UQ program, INCLUDING Ochsner as UQ's clinical school
UQ also hold clinical schools in Malaysia and Brunei
Thus, doing rotations in the US, Malaysia, or Brunei would not count as doing them "outside of the country of your medical school" because UQ AS A MEDICAL SCHOOL exists in all these countries and IS ACCREDITED AS SUCH.
Furthermore the degree that is granted is, in every way, shape, and form, identical to any other degree granted by UQ SoM (i.e. the same as a 4-year Aussie student). There is no delineation (for legal purposes) that we are Ochsner students. Thus the ECFMG treats us exactly the same and our credentials are exactly the same.
I understand that above it was said that the NYMB would potentially look at things individually and thus see that our rotations were all in Ochsner. This does not change the fact that Ochsner is not a clinical school "outside of the country of our medical school." UQ, by definition and accreditation, is a medical school in America as well as Australia.
For the person who asked specifically and was told by the NYMB or whomever that it would not fly - how did you ask? They probably are not specifically familiar with our paradigm nor the way in which UQ is legally structured and accredited. So if you asked something to the effect of "I'm doing this program at an Australian SoM but do two years of clinicals in New Orleans..." they would likely say no-go just on principle. It is a new paradigm, but even the American Medical Association is giving the program kudos.
Anyways, hope that is helpful. I will try and check back periodically to help answer any further questions. If you have further questions, I would recommend you direct them to the appropriate faculty at the SoM or at Ochsner.
The University of Queensland or Ochsner Health System or MedEdPath should make a list of all the states where UQ-Ochsner graduates are eligible to practice.
I don't understand your logic for why UQ-Ochsner should be NY eligible. The University of Queensland grants the degree, it is located in Australia. Most of the final two years of clinical rotations are conducted in the United States, which is a different country from Australia; therefore, the UQ-Ochsner program must require special approval from New York. If you did 12+ weeks of clinicals in Brunei but graduated from the University of Queensland you wouldn't be eligible to do a residency in New York. That's is how their rules are interpreted. It doesn't matter if the University of Queensland and the AMC accredits those clinical schools.
The whole issue is very confusing. I can't see the UQ-Ochsner program having difficulty obtaining recognition by the medical board of any state due to the University of Queensland's status as quality university and the fact that US medical students already rotate through Ochsner; however, there doesn't seem to be an effort to get medical board approval by UQ-Ochsner outside of California.
If UQ-Ochsner wants to market itself as a program only for US citizens for the purpose of returning to the United States (because they certainly aren't going to allow all of the graduates to remain in Australia) then they should create a list verifying all of the states that graduates are eligible to practice in, end of story.
One major potential problem with UQ-Ochsner's bid for California recognition is that the three main criteria are
1. The institution is owned and operated by the government of the country in which it is located.
2. The country is a member of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.
3. The institution's primary purpose is to educate its own citizens to practice medicine in that country.
While UQ-Ochsner meets criteria 1 & 2 it fails criteria #3 since only US citizens are eligible for the UQ-Ochsner program. This does not mean that the school cannot get California recognition however it means that UQ-Ochsner must go through a strict review process that looks at things like class size, attrition, the number of graduates practicing in the US for the last 5 years, USMLE performance, etc. Also, since there are no graduates of UQ-Ochsner I don't know how they could even apply since the form requests data on graduates from the last 5 years.
SOURCE: http://www.mbc.ca.gov/applicant/schools_self-assessment_ims.pdf
I understand that it is a difficult and confusing topic. It is also very difficult for me to impart my over two years of extensive and direct involvement with the top faculty of the program on both sides of the Pacific.
First off, there need be no list really. The list all 50 states. At least in principle. Obviously, in the wonderful world of bureaucracy when things are tested there may arise problems. However, based on everyone's understanding of the laws and statuses of institutions involved, there is nothing that would prevent residency or licensure in any of the 50 states. Period.
Extra hoops to jump through? Potentials for snafus and downfalls? Yes. That is currently being worked on.
My logic as to why UQ-Ochsner would be eligible in NYC is very simple. ANY UQ grad is eligible. There is no difference being in the Ochsner cohort. The Aussie students can (and do) rotate through Ochsner as well. It is simply another clinical school of UQ, under the same accreditation umbrella. It is not a partner or affiliate like when St George or Ross sends its 3rd and 4th years off for clinicals. It is an entirely different legal arrangement - the Ochsner facility IS A PART OF UQ. So yes, if you rotated in Brunei it would be the same. That is the point - these rotations are not out of the country of origin, since by all legal definitions, UQ exists in America AS PART OF ITS ACCREDITATION AS LISTED ON FAIMER AND IMED. So there is no need for any kind of special approval.
Now, as I said - there COULD be a snafu wherein the MB of NY decides that an applicant doesn't satisfy the requirements for the exact reason you are confused on the topic. However, that is something that can easily and readily be demonstrated to be false and appealed. Would it be a headache and a huge pain in the ass? Of course. But once it is done once, the precedent is set and all is well.
As for obtaining medical board approval - it is my understanding from both the heads of Ochsner and the Dean of the SoM, in personal meetings, that such endeavors have been undertaken, are ongoing, and are all the same response - "yes, there is no reason why this should be a problem." There is nothing to pursue really. The Dean of SoM was in Sacramento in January. They told him the same - there is no issue with licensure or residency. There never was and never needed to be any sort of "special approval" so what kind of press release would you like to see?
As for your 3 criteria, there is no problem there either. I also sat in front of the Australian Medical Council prior to accreditation of the program. In a nutshell, #3 is met because the AMC would not have accredited the program if it were not. We have to do an extra 4 weeks of Australian Health Experience, are restricted to doing the 4 week Year 1 elective in Australia, and must return for 1 8 week rotation in 4th year in order to satisfy the AMC that we would be adequately train to practice as Australian interns. So not only is the primary purpose of UQ, by all standards, to make its own citizens ready to practice in its own country, but we are also technically qualified to practice in Australia as well. All bases are covered.
Lastly, think about the concept of two admittedly high class institutions spending 10s of MILLIONS of dollars on a partnership that will lead to a lack of licensure. They did their homework. The groundwork is there. The progress is to streamline things, gain recognition, and have our program looked at as something quite apart and above the Caribbean schools (which it is and is very well on its way to doing).
So to be very clear - there is no "UQ-Ochsner" program vis-a-vis accreditation. It is a cohort stream that is, under all relevant auspices of the law and accreditation, exactly the same as the "UQ" program and nothing more. That was very intentionally planned for exactly this purpose. Traditional students can do their entire 3rd and 4th years here in Ochsner if they so wished (save 1 rotation) and still practice in Australia. UQ grads have matched in very competitive programs including Dartmouth. The Dean of UCSF SoM is a UQ MBBS grad. The only issues here are the novelty of the paradigm and the potential for confusion (which is reasonable) that we are actively working to mitigate.
Hope that helps clear things up a bit more.
I the argument is that because there is no such thing as a UQ-Ochsner degree, there is no need for institutional review since grads are UQ grads with an (institutionally approved) UQ degree.How can UQ-Ochsner students obtain a residency in New York or Florida if no institutional review has been conducted since Ochsner became affiliated with UQ?
I the argument is that because there is no such thing as a UQ-Ochsner degree, there is no need for institutional review since grads are UQ grads with an (institutionally approved) UQ degree.
Has anyone applied yet this year? I'm finishing up the application now, but I wanted to verify that they're still accepting applications before I send it over. I've tried to get in touch with MEP, but they seem to have suddenly disappeared this week.
I've applied to the UQ Ochsner program, I think it sounds like an incredda experience!
My questions are for people presently in the program.
If you got the option to do it all over again would you?
For those of you who have taken the USMLE did you feel the curriculum helped you?
Do you think the California & New York licensing issues will hold you back upon graduation?
Can graduates of the program get an Australian internship after graduation?
Are the US clinical rotations the same ones that students from LSU & Tulane participate in? or geared towards the Australian style?
Great questions:
1) Yes. I would. I think personally I have been afforded opportunities here that I would not have had elsewhere. Beyond that, I think that as the program grows in size and the kinks of the new collaboration get ironed out, such opportunities will be less ripe for the picking and more on par with the average US med school experience. At that point I would say that consideration for the program should be hinged on where else you are accepted - just like any other program. If my goal was to practice medicine in the states and I was accepted to a top tier SoM here, it doesn't matter what the other program is - I'd go there! But I do think this program can (and will) become a very good alternative for people who don't want to settle for a bottom or middle tier US SoM.
2) That is not a straighforward question to answer. Did it help? Yeah, of course. Medicine is medicine (no matter what those hippy CAM shysters would have you believe). Of course you learn a lot of the same material as would be on the test during your course work for UQ. Does it prepare you ENOUGH? No. There is definitely a gap there. Of course, no SoM curriculum prepares you ENOUGH. Most of the score you get is from your own hard, independent, work. There is an additional gap in the UQ curriculum simply because their paradigm of medical education is different and obviously not geared to teach towards a foreign medical licensing exam. However, tutorials and resources specifically for us exist to help bridge that gap. It is up to you to take advantage of them and then do even more on your own. It really isn't that HARD to do... it just requires consistency and a small, but measurable, sustained and consistent effort from the very beginning of first year. But then again, so does becoming a doctor :-D
3) In everything that I know, and all the reading I have done, and every person I have spoken to - no. I do not think there will be any issues beyond some extra paperwork and red tape to cut through. Quite minor in comparison to the whole "getting through med school" bit before it.
4) Yes we can. Though it is getting harder and harder to do so. It is definitely something feasible, but if your intent is to try for an Aussie internship you are much better off doing the regular 4 year program all in Australia. It is a nice thought to have in your back pocket for us, but not something I would count on.
5) We work alongside Tulane and LSU students and do essentially the same things. However, assessments and exact curriculum are indeed different as they have to reflect UQ curriculum. This is currently a minor pain, but rather important because it is (both directly and indirectly) for this reason that we will have no problems with residency in NY or CA. Our accreditation and curriculum is from UQ, accredited by the Australian Medical Council, and thus we are fully free to obtain residency. The only way to make that legit is via the AMC accreditation, and they need to be satisfied with the curriculum which means... we do UQ assessments to pass and must meet their curriculum standards. What that has translated into is that some rotations are less "heavy" than their US counterparts and some are "heavier" since we do basically what a US student would do PLUS UQ stuff on top. Overall though, I'd say its a pretty similar educational experience, anecdotally from conversations I have had with my friend at Chicago Med as well as Tulane and LSU kids I rotate with.
So I guess in sum I would say it is geared to the American style, but still meets UQ curriculum requirements.
Hope that answers your questions. Best of luck!
The main problem is not internship spots but registrar spots. The government thought the solution to the doctor shortage was to produce more medical student and internship spots without substantially increasing the number of registrar training positions. This is producing a bottle neck and will make many specialties even more ultracompetative. Have a search for the "medical student tsunami" to get a better understanding.
I'm not trying to present doom and gloom but it is something people should be aware of.
Thanks for the quick reply!
I've googled the internship 'situation' in Australia. It seems the Australian Medical Association & Australian Medical Students' Association is extremely keen on the government providing more funding so that new internships can be added. The reason they want more internships is for the international students studying in Australia so that they can remain there after graduate as Australia has a physician shortage, that is only going to get worse, and an easy way to address it would be to retain some international medical students.
I think I would be happy remaining in Australia after graduation. Interns are paid a cool $60,000.
Any idea when UQ Ochsner decisions are released? It says 8 weeks from the time of application on MedEdPath's website.
How many people are in the UQ Ochsner group in each class? I read that there are 130 international students in each year at UQ but I don't think that included the Ochsner students.
1) Yes, everyone WANTS to increase spots. The US versions of those organizations are advocating for the same thing. We all want solid gold toilets and 8 hours of sleep a night as well.
Having said that, I think the Aussies are much better positioned to actually have it happen. Though you still aren't getting your gold toilet.
Also, as an intern, you not only make a fair bit more than you would here, but you can work overtime. I know interns and RMOs that make ~80-90k working a bunch of overtime.
However, if you are actually keen on staying in Australia, I would really recommend that you just do the 4 year program there (what we call "traditional" students). It is actually somewhat difficult to get an intern spot no matter what, especially in the city. Many people end up in rural areas for their internship, and when a few 4th year international students I knew got a spot at the Royal Brisbane and Women's Hospital (RBWH) it was actually pretty big news. Everyone was talking about it - and wondering how they snagged the spot! Of course, this is anecdotal, but the point being is that you are much more likely to get a spot out in the boonies than you would in a city. Not to say that is necessarily a bad thing, but it may not be what you were hoping for nor something you would be keen to do.
Considering the competition for intern spots, and registrar (their version of what we call residents for specialty) positions, especially from Canadian students, I would say that being part of the Ochsner program rather than the traditional program would detriment your ability to get a spot.
Bear in mind that for the Canadians, they have an EXTREMELY small chance of getting a residency back home, so they are fiercely competing for the most desirable spots available in Australia.
2) Yes, you typically get a yes or no within 8 weeks of completion of the application. Usually it is even faster.
3) The class size starting next year will be ~120 and fixed at that level. The overall class size is ~470, with roughly 50% being international. That demographic is not changing. They are merely shifting the international demographic from almost entirely Canadian to 50% Ochsner cohort while keeping the overall class size the same.
I'm not looking to pick a fight but..
I emailed the New York State Education Department for clarification regarding this issue, I received a response this afternoon.
I was told that graduates of the UQ Ochsner program would not be eligible to do residency in NY due to the duration of the clerkships being completed outside of Australia.
http://www.mededpath.org/application_form.pdf see page 6, number 2.
So overall would you say the "traditional" pathway is better? It seems like it gives you the best shot at practicing in Australia & it doesn't have the potential licensing issues with New York & California back home. And UQ lets the traditional students do rotations at Ochsner.
While it sounds appealing to do 2 years in Brisbane & 2 years in New Orleans maybe it's best to opt for 4-years in Brisbane?
How was living in Brisbane?
I heard it's expensive. Can you give us an accurate idea of total monthly costs (factoring in all expenses like rent, food, utilities, transportation, etc)?
I happen to know that graduates of UQ Ochsner have been accepted into residency programs in New York, so this claim is misinformed
It will be nice to see where the first graduates match into. At the same time, the match statistics will probably not be too significant for a few years or so, since mean USMLE scores will likely improve as the students in the program get familiarized with what actually needs to get done, via advice from previous years' students. In the end, if good USMLE scores equate to solid matches, just like they do with American seniors, the program is as good as gold.
It will be nice to see where the first graduates match into. At the same time, the match statistics will probably not be too significant for a few years or so, since mean USMLE scores will likely improve as the students in the program get familiarized with what actually needs to get done, via advice from previous years' students. In the end, if good USMLE scores equate to solid matches, just like they do with American seniors, the program is as good as gold.
There are also only like 14 people in the first class, I wouldn't be surprised if most (or even all) match at Ochsner. The second class will probably be a similar deal because I get the vibe that there are less than 40 students in it.
What will be telling is once the class size hits the 120 mark, not everyone will be able to match at Ochsner. As far as USMLE performance goes everyone who puts in the effort should do okay. UQ has an MCAT cutoff of 8/8/8 24M which is by no means easy to achieve, even if it's considered "low" for US MD schools. I think the DO school average MCAT is like a 25 or 26 and plenty of them take the USMLE and do well.
And to my knowledge UQ Ochsner is the only international medical school (not including the Caribs of course) that actually makes an effort to prepare students for the USMLE. The Irish schools don't, and I don't believe any of the other Australian schools do. So that has to count for something. It's a shame that they didn't implement the MD sooner (UQ is starting it in 2015) it would make graduates slightly more marketable than they currently are with a MBBS.
Exactly. Besides your very valid points, the sample sizes will be small for the first few matches. The 1st cohort is only 12 strong, mine is 31, the one behind me 33.
The cohort after that is 87 and after that will be 120 (the steady state).
Also, the first cohort had almost no USMLE support at all. My cohort had USMLE support through all of 2nd year. The cohort behind me was the first to be briefed on and receive USMLE support and info from day 1 of 1st year (which will be the paradigm from here on out).
As such, scores are expected to climb, everyone is going to get the hang of things better, the program will be better known, and the sample sizes for match will be larger and more representative.
UQ has an MCAT cutoff of 8/8/8 24M which is by no means easy to achieve, even if it's considered "low" for US MD schools. I think the DO school average MCAT is like a 25 or 26 and plenty of them take the USMLE and do well.
How did the cohorts end up being 12, 31, 33, and 87? Is there a fair amount of attrition in the program?
How did the cohorts end up being 12, 31, 33, and 87? Is there a fair amount of attrition in the program? How many students did your cohort start off with? Did everyone pass the USMLE?
Do you think Ochsner has the ability to give 120 students enough patient contact or is that cohort too large?
Honestly, when I first read your statement "24M is by no means easy to achieve," I thought you meant because that is so low. Our cohort's average was 30, with a low of 24 and a high of 41. I truly do believe that UQ needs to set the bar a little higher because I don't think someone scoring in the 20s should be in med school.
so has anyone been excepted for the January 2012 class yet? If so could you share your statistics so we could start getting a clearer impression of the admissions criteria? thanks
so has anyone received a letter from UQ yet?