Updated Medical Student Debt Fact Card from the AAMC released

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oh. um, i wasnt participating in aforementioned orgies. obviously. :)

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every conf ive ever been to has always ACTUALLY been an alcohol-fueled sexfest.

not even joking.

the annual ADA conf is a prime example.
Yes, AAD can be like that, but it also depends on the city as well -- a great one like Miami :hardy:. Denver or New Orleans - eh. :shrug:
 
With PAYE, it doesn't really make sense to live like a resident. You can invest the money that you would otherwise be dumping into student loans.

No way....paying off your medical school loans (6.8% for me) is a GUARANTEED ROI. And then when you're debt free, you invest as much money as you want because no one owns you. Interesting stories come out of being debt free.... Usually leads to a higher income, because you can take risks on new jobs, better opportunities---because nothing's holding you back.
 
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No way....paying off your medical school loans (6.8% for me) is a GUARANTEED ROI. And then when you're debt free, you invest as much money as you want because no one owns you. Interesting stories come out of being debt free.... Usually leads to a higher income, because you can take risks on new jobs, better opportunities---because nothing's holding you back.
How is 6.8% compounding interest better?
 
every conf ive ever been to has always ACTUALLY been an alcohol-fueled sexfest.

not even joking.

the annual ADA conf is a prime example.

Yup.

Our attendings took us out every night. The only meal I paid for this week was my breakfast on the way to the airport.

then you combine that with having to wake up early for the conference the next morning.

It's a daily rinse and repeat of red meat, red wine, and whiskey. You feel like a booze soaked mess by the end of the week.

And as to the sexfest - our single residents are known to aggressively hit on the med students at the meeting. Sometimes our not so single residents too which gets more awkward
 
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Yup.

Our attendings took us out every night. The only meal I paid for this week was my breakfast on the way to the airport.

then you combine that with having to wake up early for the conference the next morning.

It's a daily rinse and repeat of red meat, red wine, and whiskey. You feel like a booze soaked mess by the end of the week.

And as to the sexfest - our single residents are known to aggressively hit on the med students at the meeting. Sometimes our not so single residents too which gets more awkward

Kaus sent me a text last week that was like "hey! lets go to SF!"...which I mistook as him being like "lets go to wine country for a weekend" until he was like "oh, i wanna go hang out with my attendings at this conference!!!!" :uhno:
 
Yup.

Our attendings took us out every night. The only meal I paid for this week was my breakfast on the way to the airport.

then you combine that with having to wake up early for the conference the next morning.

It's a daily rinse and repeat of red meat, red wine, and whiskey. You feel like a booze soaked mess by the end of the week.

And as to the sexfest - our single residents are known to aggressively hit on the med students at the meeting. Sometimes our not so single residents too which gets more awkward
I'm guessing this detail isn't mentioned to the medical students. lol.
 
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Kaus sent me a text last week that was like "hey! lets go to SF!"...which I mistook as him being like "lets go to wine country for a weekend" until he was like "oh, i wanna go hang out with my attendings at this conference!!!!" :uhno:
Nerd alert! (him, not you obvi)
 
hahaha, hes so adorable when he nerds out. and all the other times too. okay, ill shut up.
I always wonder what people outside the aquarium of medicine/med school think when they see med students. lol. Yes, we all have our phases where we completely nerd out. There really is a specialty for every personality type in medicine.
 
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no freaking way do i ski or snowboard or do most other ridiculous non-fun outdoor related things that could damage my money makers.

i am not a californian with a weird snowboard/ski obsession! cmon now.
You mean your heels?
 
I'm guessing this detail isn't mentioned to the medical students. lol.

I don't know how they wouldn't know? I mean it's a small place and the students know is relatively well.

Anyways I'll let my friends enjoy some harmless flirting. I don't really think any of them are stupid enough to act on it. Well maybe one Sleaze bags a few years ago - but I'd step in to protect the students in that case if there were an issue.
 
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I don't know how they wouldn't know? I mean it's a small place and the students know is relatively well.

Anyways I'll let my friends enjoy some harmless flirting. I don't really think any of them are stupid enough to act on it. Well maybe one Sleaze bags a few years ago - but I'd step in to protect the students in that case if there were an issue.
Are these med students from your institution, or med students in general? If you don't have a ring on, then you can't tell. Oh, and med students are just as guilty of slutting out (men and women).
 
Money makers = HANDS

I stick my feet in closing elevator doors. Never my hands. I am as paranoid about that stuff as I am about things staining my teeth, lol
I think it's so very cute you drink everything with a straw.
 
Are these med students from your institution, or med students in general? If you don't have a ring on, then you can't tell. Oh, and med students are just as guilty of slutting out (men and women).

Our med students mostly.

It's too tiring as a resident to put up with med students from other institutions who are trying to network.

We take our own students out for drinks and whatnot.
 
I think it's so very cute you drink everything with a straw.

A funny story. When he and I first started dating and went out for our first coffee, he got super confused when I went looking for a straw and when he saw what I was doing he was like "did you accidentally order it hot when you wanted it iced???? you know thats hot right????" hahahaha
 
Our med students mostly.

It's too tiring as a resident to put up with med students from other institutions who are trying to network.

We take our own students out for drinks and whatnot.
OMG. So freaking annoying. If you're cute you can maybe get away with it, but even then.
 
A funny story. When he and I first started dating and went out for our first coffee, he got super confused when I went looking for a straw and when he saw what I was doing he was like "did you accidentally order it hot when you wanted it iced???? you know thats hot right????" hahahaha
LOL!!! If you drink with a straw doesn't it hit your teeth somewhat when the liquid beverage goes back there?
 
LOL!!! If you drink with a straw doesn't it hit your teeth somewhat when the liquid beverage goes back there?

Yeah, the backs of my front teeth and my back teeth, at least im not bathing my front teeth in mega-staining stuff. At least thats how I rationalize my crazy habits to myself and others.

I also despise cilantro, and he picks all the cilantro out of my food for me if its there.
 
Lol, if youre a strategically dressed girl with good makeup and a blowout, you can get away with a ton. Even if not cute.
Esp. if you play your cards right, and go more for the not-so-cute residents (i.e. the fuglier ones) or a single junior faculty member who just graduated residency.
 
Yeah, the backs of my front teeth and my back teeth, at least im not bathing my front teeth in mega-staining stuff. At least thats how I rationalize my crazy habits to myself and others.

I also despise cilantro, and he picks all the cilantro out of my food for me if its there.
Why? Does it stain teeth?
 
OMG. So freaking annoying. If you're cute you can maybe get away with it, but even then.

Especially because they are usually...umm...less than competitive.

Mostly because the competitive ones get good enough advice from their mentors that they don't feel the need to do this. And they are spending the week getting taken out by said attendings and their own residents.

There was this one kid last year going around with resumes.

Exhausting.
 
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Especially because they are usually...umm...less than competitive.

Mostly because the competitive ones get good enough advice from their mentors that they don't feel the need to do this. And they are spending the week getting taken out by said attendings and their own residents.

There was this one kid last year going around with resumes.

Exhausting.

There's also a bunch of people that come with their non-dentite spouses who stand around and just get bored at these things, I always feel sort of bad for them
 
No way....paying off your medical school loans (6.8% for me) is a GUARANTEED ROI. And then when you're debt free, you invest as much money as you want because no one owns you. Interesting stories come out of being debt free.... Usually leads to a higher income, because you can take risks on new jobs, better opportunities---because nothing's holding you back.
Using my projected indebtedness ($30k undergrad, $270k med school, 4 year residency) I'll have made:

$485k in cumulative payments under the proposed PAYE legislation (25 years of 10% of discretionary income with complete forgiveness)
$372k + $150k? tax bomb in cumulative payments under the current PAYE legislation (20 years, 10%, tax bomb treated as taxable income)

Or I can pay it off aggressively. Projected $250k starting salary as a specialist with single filing status and 0% state/local taxes (unlikely, unless you live in Texas or one of the other few states with low taxes) gives you $175k/yr take-home, not taking into account fringe benefits or retirement contributions, the latter of which will take out a significant chunk of that $175k/yr. Assuming you live on $45k/yr post-tax earnings, that requires approximately 4 years of payments to get in the clear for a cumulative repayment of about $490k.

So you can pay off roughly the same amount of debt over a long period...which is actually a better plan,when you consider that you can make money by investing the income that you would otherwise be dumping into student loans.
 
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Esp. if you play your cards right, and go more for the not-so-cute residents (i.e. the fuglier ones) or a single junior faculty member who just graduated residency.

My problem is more that if you really think hitting up a mid-level resident is going to help you get a residency interview, you are by definition not the sharpest tool in the shed.

If you're gonna gun, at least pick the appropriate target and pester my PD
 
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Especially because they are usually...umm...less than competitive.

Mostly because the competitive ones get good enough advice from their mentors that they don't feel the need to do this. And they are spending the week getting taken out by said attendings and their own residents.

There was this one kid last year going around with resumes.

Exhausting.
Yup. That's when they REALLY kick it up a notch. Not realizing that the match already happened or will occur that month (ours are in March) - so the last thing that faculty members, residents want to think or talk about is anything residency related, even if you're an M3. The ones who are already competitive and are attending bc they're presenting a poster, don't feel the need to do it bc a) they have enough social awareness and b) they don't need to do it.

I'm always amazed by a med student who lacks so much social grace as to blatantly pass out his resume at an educational conference to other physicians. Like what are they supposed to do with it? Carry it home on their trip back and file it under your name?
 
My problem is more that if you really think hitting up a mid-level resident is going to help you get a residency interview, you are by definition not the sharpest tool in the shed.

If you're gonna gun, at least pick the appropriate target and pester my PD
:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
Yup. That's when they REALLY kick it up a notch. Not realizing that the match already happened or will occur that month (ours are in March) - so the last thing that faculty members, residents want to think or talk about is anything residency related, even if you're an M3. The ones who are already competitive and are attending bc they're presenting a poster, don't feel the need to do it bc a) they have enough social awareness and b) they don't need to do it.

I'm always amazed by a med student who lacks so much social grace as to blatantly pass out his resume at an educational conference to other physicians. Like what are they supposed to do with it? Carry it home on their trip back and file it under your name?

The problem with this conference is it is in October. Prime M4 desperation season.
 
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The problem with this conference is it is in October. Prime M4 desperation season.
Oh, Yikes! Really bad timing. I'm sure there are some PDs who love the buttkissing though.
 
Using my projected indebtedness ($30k undergrad, $270k med school, 4 year residency) I'll have made:

$485k in cumulative payments under the proposed PAYE legislation (25 years of 10% of discretionary income with complete forgiveness)
$372k + $150k? tax bomb in cumulative payments under the current PAYE legislation (20 years, 10%, tax bomb treated as taxable income)

Or I can pay it off aggressively. Projected $250k starting salary as a specialist with single filing status and 0% state/local taxes (unlikely, unless you live in Texas or one of the other few states with low taxes) gives you $175k/yr take-home, not taking into account fringe benefits or retirement contributions, the latter of which will take out a significant chunk of that $175k/yr. Assuming you live on $45k/yr post-tax earnings, that requires approximately 4 years of payments to get in the clear for a cumulative repayment of about $490k.

So you can pay off roughly the same amount of debt over a long period...which is actually a better plan,when you consider that you can make money by investing the income that you would otherwise be dumping into student loans.

There are few comments I'd like to make in regards to your post.

First, 250k income in 8 years (I'm assuming you will pursue a 4-year long training) will not have the same purchase power it does today (it will have a purchasing power of ~210k).

Second, it's almost alway more financially sound to repay your debt through IBR/PAYE, even if you are planning on repaying the whole thing to avoid the tax bomb. The reason for that is that while you are enrolled in IBR/PAYE, your interests don't capitalize, so you won't be paying interests on interests. In other words, you wouldn't be paying interests on the interests you accrued during residency.

Third, repaying 525K (375 + 150 tax bomb) over 20 years is less of a financial burden than repaying 490k in 4 year years because of two reasons. One, it's because you'd have more cash in hand to spend and enjoy your life (which is important because you don't want to get burnt out). Two, with inflation, the 525k will have a significantly lower value after 20 years than 490k.
 
No, lots of undergrads in the top quartile of family income, it seems.
I think you'd need to be richer than the top quartile to pay for a college education out of pocket. Average COA over 4 years is 80k+. My (private) undergrad was closer to 175k.

Besides, if everyone going to med school came from affluent families, wouldn't you expect there to be less of a gap between the percentage with undergrad debt and the percentage with med school debt? (34% vs 84%)
 
life is so expensive, i have to force myself to save or i'd spend everything i make the day i get paid. well, maybe in two or three days.
 
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I think you'd need to be richer than the top quartile to pay for a college education out of pocket. Average COA over 4 years is 80k+. My (private) undergrad was closer to 175k.

Besides, if everyone going to med school came from affluent families, wouldn't you expect there to be less of a gap between the percentage with undergrad debt and the percentage with med school debt? (34% vs 84%)
I didn't say they'd all are all at the 25th percentile, I said they'd all fit in the top one-fourth of income earners. But a sizable majority of med students families are relatively well to do - there is no denying that. Then you have the (Asian)-type families who are willing to sacrifice anything for their children and either take out complete loans for their kids or pay for their children's tuition in full. If you look at many of the med students who go to the Carribean - many of them come from very very affluent families, but didn't work hard enough or have good enough study skills to do well in undergrad, but can essentially buy their way into medical school.

You can tell bc they're the ones always taking trips during breaks to awesome places, are very well-dressed with Prada bags, Burberry scarfs, etc. and have better cars than many faculty who have worked at the med school for decades. This is nothing like it was in the 90s when tuition was much more manageable where you had students from a much more diversity of incomes. An MD degree is effectively out of the reach of most middle-class students, unless you're willing to take 6 figures of non-dischargeable loan debt.
 
First, 250k income in 8 years (I'm assuming you will pursue a 4-year long training) will not have the same purchase power it does today (it will have a purchasing power of ~210k).

Second, it's almost alway more financially sound to repay your debt through IBR/PAYE, even if you are planning on repaying the whole thing to avoid the tax bomb. The reason for that is that while you are enrolled in IBR/PAYE, your interests don't capitalize, so you won't be paying interests on interests. In other words, you wouldn't be paying interests on the interests you accrued during residency.
I'm pretty sure that the 250k estimate (as are all the other values for indebtedness, income, and interest) is in 2014 dollars and will increase with inflation by the time he enters practice.

Does anyone actually not pay off their loans in full after 20/25 years of PAYE/IBR? I feel like that's surprisingly difficult to do unless you're only practicing part time.
 
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I didn't say they'd all are all at the 25th percentile, I said they'd all fit in the top one-fourth of income earners. But a sizable majority of med students families are relatively well to do - there is no denying that. Then you have the (Asian)-type families who are willing to sacrifice anything for their children and either take out complete loans for their kids or pay for their children's tuition in full. If you look at many of the med students who go to the Carribean - many of them come from very very affluent families, but didn't work hard enough or have good enough study skills to do well in undergrad, but can essentially buy their way into medical school.

You can tell bc they're the ones always taking trips during breaks to awesome places, are very well-dressed with Prada bags, Burberry scarfs, etc. and have better cars than many faculty who have worked at the med school for decades. This is nothing like it was in the 90s when tuition was much more manageable where you had students from a much more diversity of incomes. An MD degree is effectively out of the reach of most middle-class students, unless you're willing to take 6 figures of non-dischargeable loan debt.

Ahem prada bags ><
 
An MD degree is effectively out of the reach of most middle-class students, unless you're willing to take 6 figures of non-dischargeable loan debt.
Considering that the mean and median indebtedness at graduation is ~180k, it looks like new doctors are better represented as middle-class students taking on six figure debt than as trust fund kids.
 
Considering that the mean and median indebtedness at graduation is ~180k, it looks like new doctors are better represented as middle-class students taking on six figure debt than as trust fund kids.
That includes instate students who go to public in-state schools. Different than a) the student who goes out of state and pays out of state tuition or b) goes to a privately funded school (Ivy/not Ivy, or top-tier/not top-tier). Is that debt for tuition & fees only?
 
Good. Two brands I dislike strongly. Although I did buy the dog a coach collar once.
Don't get me wrong. I don't besmirch those born into very affluent circumstances (those who have both parents who are physicians, for example). Once you really get to know them in studying and rotations, you see they are good people. Too frequently, however, I do see a complete lack of perspective. The best ones are the students who know how lucky they are and don't flaunt it, if that makes any sense and make friends with everyone. Esp. when there are people in the class who aren't in the top echelon of society.
 
I'm pretty sure that the 250k estimate (as are all the other values for indebtedness, income, and interest) is in 2014 dollars and will increase with inflation by the time he enters practice.

Does anyone actually not pay off their loans in full after 20/25 years of PAYE/IBR? I feel like that's surprisingly difficult to do unless you're only practicing part time.

According to this calculator http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/ibr.cgi, you need to be earning 300k, with a 4% annual increase, to payoff a 300k debt within 20 year. This assuming a family size of 3, a 4-year long residency, and a resident's income of 50k.

Many students 2018, including myself, will be looking a higher indebtedness than 300k. Heck, the COA at my school is 78-85k depending on what year you are in. Factoring in an average undergrad debt of 20k and the interests accrued during school, I foresee most of my classmates graduating with 400k+ debt. Therefore, many of us will be doing IBR/PAYE and will have some balance left over by the end of the repayment term, which will be considered a taxable income.
 
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