Updated Medical Student Debt Fact Card from the AAMC released

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circulus vitios said:
I don't understand how private school mean/median is $190k/200k. I know medical students on average come from well-off families, but they list the median COA for a private school at almost $300k. The average medical student's family can contribute $110k to their education? Crazy.
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You'd be surprised how many med students come from money.

At my school at least I'd say about 50% have parents (sometimes both) who are physicians making >200K/year.
Another 25% have parents with graduate degrees (PhD, DDS, PA, MSN, JD, MBA) making >100K/year.

I can't tell you how many have a yacht in florida or a ski cabin in colorado in addition to taking regular vacations to Europe or Hawaii.

There are only a handful on students in each class who come from poor or underprivileged backgrounds.

Talking to friends at other schools it's very similar there as well.
 
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DermViser said:
When you have 6 figure debt (a mortgage with no house) and years of delayed gratification, you tell me that you won't feel just a little bit entitled. I know how we can solve this problem - let's add Sociology, Psychology, and Biochemistry to the MCAT with the excuse that medicine is changing oh so fast and will be so much different when we're practicing it vs. when our attendings practiced.

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Why these people keep adding unnecessary hoops like that? Why fix something that is not broken? These administrators drive me nuts....
 
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Ibn Alnafis MD said:
According to this calculator http://www.finaid.org/calculators/scripts/ibr.cgi, you need to be earning 300k, with a 4% annual increase, to payoff a 300k debt within 20 year. This assuming a family size of 3, a 4-year long residency, and a resident's income of 50k.

Many students 2018, including myself, will be looking a higher indebtedness than 300k. Heck, the COA at my school is 78-85k depending on what year you are in. Factoring in an average undergrad debt of 20k and the interests accrued during school, I foresee most of my classmates graduating with 400k+ debt. Therefore, many of us will be doing IBR/PAYE and will have some balance left over by the end of the repayment term, which will be considered a taxable income.
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Oh boy! I guess I should stop complaining then...
 
W19 said:
Oh boy! I guess I should stop complaining then...
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yeah, whenever I read a post by someone complaining about their "huge" 200k debt, I feel like I want to punch the screen.
 
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Fortunately my med school COA is under $20k/yr, unfortunately I have huge undergrad debt. Fun times.
 
W19 said:
Why these people keep adding unnecessary hoops like that? Why fix something that is not broken? These administrators drive me nuts....
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You'll figure out quite quickly that physicians in academia are idiots and they're surrounded by "Yes" men and women who are also idiots. The more you professionalize a degree (like medicine) you add a ton of more inefficiencies and hoops to jump thru. It's why med students when they graduate med school are apparently utter incompetents but PAs and NPs are perfectly qualified to practice when they graduate.

It doesn't just end at med school either. After you become an attending you'll have Maintenance of Certification requirements with fields such as IM who make their diplomates do onerous tasks to stay certified (as if IM isn't hard enough) all from academics who have lifetime certification.
 
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DermViser said:
Really?
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Yeah, but not counting whatever travel costs will be during MS4. Are you surprised? Like 99% of SDN has a full tuition scholarship (not me though).

Edit: Oh I see now. Actual COA is way higher.. I meant what I actually have to pay (borrow).
 
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seminoma said:
Yeah, but not counting whatever travel costs will be during MS4. Are you surprised? Like 99% of SDN has a full tuition scholarship (not me though).

Edit: Oh I see now. Actual COA is way higher.. I meant what I actually have to pay (borrow).
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So then you're exactly what I'm talking about. #firstworldproblems
 
makingthejump said:
This. I currently live on a 35k salary and do fine. If graduated medical school with 250k debt, made 180k to start and lived at my current 35k level, there would be no reason I couldn't be debt free very quickly. The problem can be summed up in one word... "entitlement.". Too many people, especially younger non-trads, graduate these expensive professional schools and feel they are entitled to everything just b/c they went through all the education. This mindset, I believe, is the number one reason many college grads have so much debt. They have no plan in place to effectively pay down the principal amount and combine that with a ridiculous sense of self-entitlement, they are a financial mess for many years to come.
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I'm sure you do "fine" but most of us who trained through medical school and a grueling residency would rather have done something else than come out making what someone working at mcdonalds makes.
 
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JP2740 said:
I'm sure you do "fine" but most of us who trained through medical school and a grueling residency would rather have done something else than come out making what someone working at mcdonalds makes.
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That makes you "entitled" apparently.
 
JP2740 said:
I'm sure you do "fine" but most of us who trained through medical school and a grueling residency would rather have done something else than come out making what someone working at mcdonalds makes.
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Residency salary > McDonald's general manager salary. ijs.
 
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Jabbed said:
Residency salary > McDonald's general manager salary. ijs.
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I was waiting for someone to say this and completely miss the point that it's ludicrous to suggest that someone is entitled for not wanting to live on 35K after residency
 
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mcrobbit said:
Link: https://www.aamc.org/download/152968/data/debtfactcard.pdf

They also updated their other resources with new information, full list can be found here: https://www.aamc.org/services/first/first_factsheets/358632/factsheetslisting.html
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the AAMC can eat a d*ck just like all these other 'not for profit' medical schools and organizations. it's taboo for docs to make money but they can charge ridiculous fees for applying to residencies and offering crap education requiring you to teach yourself and nobody bats an eye. don't get me started on the NBME and their outrageous fees for taking board exams.
 
FIREitUP said:
the AAMC can eat a d*ck just like all these other 'not for profit' medical schools and organizations. it's taboo for docs to make money but they can charge ridiculous fees for applying to residencies and offering crap education requiring you to teach yourself and nobody bats an eye. don't get me started on the NBME and their outrageous fees for taking board exams.
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You can bet your tuition definitely doesn't go to improve the quality of teaching in the first 2 years --- podcasting lectures, syllabi, etc. don't cost that much. It definitely doesn't go to med school faculty in M3 either. It's bloated largesse and med schools are feeding at the trough. They're happy to lecture and nag med students though - that they'll do for free.
 
FIREitUP said:
the AAMC can eat a d*ck just like all these other 'not for profit' medical schools and organizations. it's taboo for docs to make money but they can charge ridiculous fees for applying to residencies and offering crap education requiring you to teach yourself and nobody bats an eye. don't get me started on the NBME and their outrageous fees for taking board exams.
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I about had a rage induced aneurysm when an instructor (who is also a clinician) pulled up the NPR article showing that doctors were in the top 1% of salaries, while suggesting that doctors make enough/too much money.
 
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circulus vitios said:
I about had a rage induced aneurysm when an instructor (who is also a clinician) pulled up the NPR article showing that doctors were in the top 1% of salaries, while suggesting that doctors make enough/too much money.
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Was he close to retirement age himself? I wonder what his debt is.
 
circulus vitios said:
They graduated med school in the early 90s...so I'm guessing it was significantly less than what I'm paying.
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Yeah, I figured he was a huge hypocrite. 90s tuition was a a steal even at top tier med schools.
 
circulus vitios said:
I about had a rage induced aneurysm when an instructor (who is also a clinician) pulled up the NPR article showing that doctors were in the top 1% of salaries, while suggesting that doctors make enough/too much money.
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That instructor IS an .....!
 
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JP2740 said:
I was waiting for someone to say this and completely miss the point that it's ludicrous to suggest that someone is entitled for not wanting to live on 35K after residency
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Woah when I read your initial post I thought it was just a typo. Can you elaborate on this? You were paid 35 k/yr after residency?
 
Jabbed said:
Sorry, I get paid per year not per hour.
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Sorry, I live in a temporal world. We get about 80 years on this planet. I'm going to look at hours worked.
 
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circulus vitios said:
I about had a rage induced aneurysm when an instructor (who is also a clinician) pulled up the NPR article showing that doctors were in the top 1% of salaries, while suggesting that doctors make enough/too much money.
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I have patients who ask me if their money is going towards paying for my car parked out front. **** you.
 
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circulus vitios said:
Sorry, I live in a temporal world. We get about 80 years on this planet. I'm going to look at hours worked.
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I've been pretty tongue in cheek with all my posts in this thread but I'll just straight up say it: residents' salaries are not meant to be anything more than a living wage and there is absolutely no chance of that ever changing.

1. Residents' salaries (for whatever ungodly reason) come out of Medicare funds. There is 0.000000% chance of any politician lobbying to increase residents' wages at the expense of baby boomers' healthcare funds.
2. Working as a resident is not analogous to working at McDonald's. It's analogous to working as a junior lawyer in a big firm, or an intern at an investment bank. You don't do it because of the money you're making today, you do it because of the money you'll be making in 10 years.

Why bother complaining about something that will never be any different than it is today?
 
Jabbed said:
I've been pretty tongue in cheek with all my posts in this thread but I'll just straight up say it: residents' salaries are not meant to be anything more than a living wage and there is absolutely no chance of that ever changing.

1. Residents' salaries (for whatever ungodly reason) come out of Medicare funds. There is 0.000000% chance of any politician lobbying to increase residents' wages at the expense of baby boomers' healthcare funds.
2. Working as a resident is not analogous to working at McDonald's. It's analogous to working as a junior lawyer in a big firm, or an intern at an investment bank. You don't do it because of the money you're making today, you do it because of the money you'll be making in 10 years.

Why bother complaining about something that will never be any different than it is today?
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That's not really a fair comparison. Junior lawyers are free to move from firm to firm as junior lawyers. Residents can't leave their program unless they're on good terms with the PD i.e. they need good recommendations, or they're going to be **** listed by about every residency program in the country. And the match has all sorts of stipulations that I don't know about, that are designed to screw over residents at every possible chance -- there's a reason why the match has legal exemption from anti-trust laws. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/37b
 
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circulus vitios said:
That's not really a fair comparison. Junior lawyers are free to move from firm to firm as junior lawyers. Residents can't leave their program unless they're on good terms with the PD i.e. they need good recommendations, or they're going to be **** listed by about every residency program in the country. And the match has all sorts of stipulations that I don't know about, that are designed to screw over residents at every possible chance -- there's a reason why the match has legal exemption from anti-trust laws. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/37b
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Lawyers generally don't make partner by hopping from firm to firm. Obviously the analogy isn't perfect, but it's much more apt than the frequently cited McDonald's one.
 
If the people running the medical schools gave a **** about the future of medicine then their number one priority would be finding ways to cut bureaucratic inefficiencies and lessen the tuition burden on students.
  1. With no undergrad debt and state school for medicine, I'm in one of the best financial positions possible. I will still graduate with over $200,000 in loans at 6.8% that accrue immediately upon taking them out.
  2. I self-taught the entire first two years since the classes were taught by professors who didn't know how to use powerpoint or prepare classroom resources.
  3. During third year, I only rotate 6-weeks the whole year at my home institution before I'm farmed out to community hospitals the rest of the time. Somehow my 6-weeks of education during third year costs $48,000 in tuition alone (no fees, housing or transportation). WHERE IS ALL THIS MONEY GOING?
  4. Same crap 4th year except worse once you add away rotation fees, ridiculous Step 2 & NBME fees, and interview costs.
Working hard, and sacrificing to attain education shouldn't end up feeling like someone roofied your drink and had their way with you.
 
akwho said:
If the people running the medical schools gave a **** about the future of medicine then their number one priority would be finding ways to cut bureaucratic inefficiencies and lessen the tuition burden on students.
  1. With no undergrad debt and state school for medicine, I'm in one of the best financial positions possible. I will still graduate with over $200,000 in loans at 6.8% that accrue immediately upon taking them out.
  2. I self-taught the entire first two years since the classes were taught by professors who didn't know how to use powerpoint or prepare classroom resources.
  3. During third year, I only rotate 6-weeks the whole year at my home institution before I'm farmed out to community hospitals the rest of the time. Somehow my 6-weeks of education during third year costs $48,000 in tuition alone (no fees, housing or transportation). WHERE IS ALL THIS MONEY GOING?
  4. Same crap 4th year except worse once you add away rotation fees, ridiculous Step 2 & NBME fees, and interview costs.
Working hard, and sacrificing to attain education shouldn't end up feeling like someone roofied your drink and had their way with you.
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You could probably make more money by giving loans to medical students than you would by being a medical student yourself.
 
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Psai said:
You could probably make more money by giving loans to medical students than you would by being a medical student yourself.
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Yeah but then I woulda had to be a finance major. At the end of the day I still love the subject of medicine. :D
 
Psai said:
You could probably make more money by giving loans to medical students than you would by being a medical student yourself.
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Then you'd be the federal government, and you'd be 18 trillion in debt. :eek:
 
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Jabbed said:
Woah when I read your initial post I thought it was just a typo. Can you elaborate on this? You were paid 35 k/yr after residency?
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Listen, I don't know if you're joking or not, but I'm not here to hold your hand through this baby. Go read the original post I quoted and think it through if you really don't get it. All I really do you know is that you're an annoyance and like I said to you in a previous thread, future AMA president ****ing up our field right here.
 
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JP2740 said:
Listen, I don't know if you're joking or not, but I'm not here to hold your hand through this baby. Go read the original post I quoted and think it through if you really don't get it. All I really do you know is that you're an annoyance and like I said to you in a previous thread, future AMA president ******* up our field right here.
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El oh el
 
jw3600 said:
http://31.media.tumblr.com/7f78a8417835794b53d7ef2bac1baf1d/tumblr_n7d8zl1yo91smcbm7o1_500.gif
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He was saying that it's ludicrous to live on 35k after residency after factoring in an immediate repayment on 300k worth of loans. That's like saying "I only make 20 grand a year because I'm paying off a mortgage, my two kids' college tuitions, and three cars". Obviously taking on massive repayment influences your disposable income. That has no bearing on what your income level is/should be.
 
Jabbed said:
He was saying that it's ludicrous to live on 35k after residency after factoring in an immediate repayment on 300k worth of loans. That's like saying "I only make 20 grand a year because I'm paying off a mortgage, my two kids' college tuitions, and three cars". Obviously taking on massive repayment influences your disposable income. That has no bearing on what your income level is/should be.
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No. He was saying that it does not make you entitled to want to live on more than 35k/year after residency. But I am not continuing this. I have heard enough from you.
 
jw3600 said:
No. He was saying that it does not make you entitled to want to live on more than 35k/year after residency. But I am not continuing this. I have heard enough from you.
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You still don't get it. Nobody is forced to live on 35 k/year. Literally any repayment option other than immediate allows you to live a much less modest lifestyle. Anyone that takes home that little is doing so intentionally so that he can pay back his loans quickly.
 
Jabbed said:
You still don't get it. Nobody is forced to live on 35 k/year. Literally any repayment option other than immediate allows you to live a much less modest lifestyle. Anyone that takes home that little is doing so intentionally so that he can pay back his loans quickly.
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Not so sure about that if you are single, have a lot of loans, and live in a high tax state...
 
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