Uphill battle as a D.O with goal of gyn onc?

[toutou]

Hey folks, so....this is not a thread discussing whether DO is better than MD. I plan on applying next cycle to both MD and DO programs, and will take any acceptance that is offered, no questions asked.

My only concern is residency / possible fellowship. I have a strong interest in OB/GYN with Gyn Onc. This is all due to my health care experience as a nurse and reason for pursuing medicine. Although I am keeping my options open and embracing new experience, I am going into this process with this strong interest.

I know I can be an OBGYN with a DO but I haven't met any DO who happen to be fellow trained in gyn onc either. All the providers I've ever worked with are MD. I know it's too early to make these type of decisions but what if I do plan to apply for OBGYN with intention of gyn onc, what are my chances as a DO? I know the merge is happening, but I can't bank on the idea that I'll land an MD fellow as a DO.

Again, I'm not asking which is better than the other. I am more looking for constructive advice on which road to take.
GPA: 3.6 Biochem
MCAT: haven't taken it yet
Research: 3 years with 2 publications
7 years of healthcare experience as an RN
Multiple other volunteering and leadership experience

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[karayaa]

Your stats suggest that you will do well in MD admissions (assuming you apply strategically and early).
Do you want to be in private practice in the future, or do something else?
MD might facilitate more leadership/research/academic opportunities, since most of the schools are university-based, while DO schools are all community based.

 

[ProudMD]

Your GPA is perfectly competitive for most MD schools. If you can score a 31+ on the MCAT, you should have a great shot at a MD school. Your ECs and research look fantastic.

When are you taking the MCAT?

 

[toutou]

Your stats suggest that you will do well in MD admissions (assuming you apply strategically and early).
Do you want to be in private practice in the future, or do something else?
MD might facilitate more leadership/research/academic opportunities, since most of the schools are university-based, while DO schools are all community based.

As of right now, I would like to go into academic medicine because I want to be a able to incorporate research.

Your GPA is perfectly competitive for most MD schools. If you can score a 31+ on the MCAT, you should have a great shot at a MD school. Your ECs and research look fantastic.

When are you taking the MCAT?

I plan on taking the MCAT in May of 2015.

 

[Pacna]

while DO schools are all community based.

This is not true. MSUCOM, DMU-COM, many, many others.

 

[ProudMD]

As of right now, I would like to go into academic medicine because I want to be a able to incorporate research.


I plan on taking the MCAT in May of 2015.

Good luck on the new MCAT! If you can score a 30+ equivalent, then you'll have a great shot at a MD program.

 

[karayaa]

This is not true. MSUCOM, DMU-COM, many, many others.

Thanks for clarifying for the OP!
When I looked at MSUCOM though, it does seem community based, because they rotate at community hospitals rather than at the (non-existent) MSUCOM medical center.
I didn't check DMU-COM, but I'm curious about why we disagree.

 

[Pacna]

Thanks for clarifying for the OP!
When I looked at MSUCOM though, it does seem community based, because they rotate at community hospitals rather than at the (non-existent) MSUCOM medical center.
I didn't check DMU-COM, but I'm curious about why we disagree.

Oh, I see. I thought you meant none were based near/at research facilities like medical centers or universities. That would make it harder to be competitive. MSUCOM is a good example of where that would not be true, and so long as the OP ensures that there are adequate research opportunities (students walking in the halls are the best source for this info, definitely NOT the administration/tour guides), then there shouldn't be an issue going DO.

 

[midweststudent1]

Worry about the MCAT first. That should be your first priority---getting into medschool, . Don't get sidetracked by the future TOO much

 

[toutou]

Worry about the MCAT first. That should be your first priority---getting into medschool, . Don't get sidetracked by the future TOO much

There's truth to this. But I can't imagine putting big investment into something like this without playing with possible outcomes.
With just a quick search of different gyn onc programs, all the current fellows are MD. Even previous graduates have been MD, which concerns me about the DO route.

 

[gyngyn]

I've never met a DO Gyn Onc.
That doesn't mean they don't exist or couldn't exist in the future.
Get into medical school before you focus on a sub-specialty...

 

[AlteredScale]

There's truth to this. But I can't imagine putting big investment into something like this without playing with possible outcomes.
With just a quick search of different gyn onc programs, all the current fellows are MD. Even previous graduates have been MD, which concerns me about the DO route.

Hi OP: There are DO's in OB/Gyn but as mentioned repeatedly, there are not that many especially when it comes to those in reproductive medicine. I have done a quick search of some programs and surprisingly UCSD have some on faculty, loyola has one from KCUMB, cleveland clinic just picked one up from CCOM for the c/o 2018, Scott and White Health System for Texas A&M just picked up one from AZCOM for the c/o 2018.

So you can sort of see that many of these programs are starting to take in some DO's slowly, so by the time you apply and graduate this trend may (hopefully) have increased and you will feel confident in entering an academic ObGyn residency. You won't see DO's finding spots at Brigham because the competition for those types of spots are especially fierce for MD's already.

Another way you can assess which DO programs have a solid yield of OBGyn matches into ACGME programs is to search the schools match list.

Hope that helps out a bit!

 

[karayaa]

Beware of confounding variables. Maybe there are no DO fellows, because none of the DO obgyns applied, for any number of potential reasons (unqualified, or just divergent career goals). Maybe all the DOs that applied for the fellowship were unqualified, for the same root reasons they went DO rather than MD.
It's kind of like when you're trying to look at match lists - you don't know why people didn't match at "top" schools, and there are lots of potential valid reasons besides the negative assumption that they weren't good enough.
So even if you can't find any DOs in obgyn gyn onc, that doesn't mean it's necessarily impossible. Of course, on the other hand, it might mean that. But there's no way to know for sure unless you find some sort of law that bars DOs from that fellowship.

 

[toutou]

I've never met a DO Gyn Onc.
That doesn't mean they don't exist or couldn't exist in the future.
Get into medical school before you focus on a sub-specialty...

Beware of confounding variables. Maybe there are no DO fellows, because none of the DO obgyns applied, for any number of potential reasons (unqualified, or just divergent career goals). Maybe all the DOs that applied for the fellowship were unqualified, for the same root reasons they went DO rather than MD.
It's kind of like when you're trying to look at match lists - you don't know why people didn't match at "top" schools, and there are lots of potential valid reasons besides the negative assumption that they weren't good enough.
So even if you can't find any DOs in obgyn gyn onc, that doesn't mean it's necessarily impossible. Of course, on the other hand, it might mean that. But there's no way to know for sure unless you find some sort of law that bars DOs from that fellowship.

I completely agree with you all about gaining med school acceptance to be the #1 priority right now. But to me it's a little naive to go into this process without giving some thought for the main reason as to why I did this in the first place and gyn onc was the biggest reason I am leaving almost a decade nursing career for medicine. I just can't justify my actions later on in my life if I just go with the flow and find myself "stuck" If I plan on going with my original intention.

I would feel a little at ease if I knew that there were D.O fellowship available specifically in gyn onc. And I agree with you maybe those DO just didn't want to apply or have interest in the sub-specialty.

I appreciate all the replies and will definitely work hard to do well on the MCAT.

 

[gyngyn]

I completely agree with you all about gaining med school acceptance to be the #1 priority right now. But to me it's a little naive to go into this process without giving some thought for the main reason as to why I did this in the first place and gyn onc was the biggest reason I am leaving almost a decade nursing career for medicine. I just can't justify my actions later on in my life if I just go with the flow and find myself "stuck" If I plan on going with my original intention.

I would feel a little at ease if I knew that there were D.O fellowship available specifically in gyn onc. And I agree with you maybe those DO just didn't want to apply or have interest in the sub-specialty.

I appreciate all the replies and will definitely work hard to do well on the MCAT.

Gyn Onc is probably the most competitive sub-specialty in Ob-Gyn at present (and the most demanding).
Since I do not know how many DO's applied or what their applications looked like, I cannot tell you what the odds of success are for this subset of the population. I have not seen the fellowship applicants broken down by degree in any publication. Perhaps you could query the ABOG or SGO.

 

[toutou]

Hi OP: There are DO's in OB/Gyn but as mentioned repeatedly, there are not that many especially when it comes to those in reproductive medicine. I have done a quick search of some programs and surprisingly UCSD have some on faculty, loyola has one from KCUMB, cleveland clinic just picked one up from CCOM for the c/o 2018, Scott and White Health System for Texas A&M just picked up one from AZCOM for the c/o 2018.

So you can sort of see that many of these programs are starting to take in some DO's slowly, so by the time you apply and graduate this trend may (hopefully) have increased and you will feel confident in entering an academic ObGyn residency. You won't see DO's finding spots at Brigham because the competition for those types of spots are especially fierce for MD's already.

Another way you can assess which DO programs have a solid yield of OBGyn matches into ACGME programs is to search the schools match list.

Hope that helps out a bit!

Thanks you

My in-state med school always has between one or two residents each year who are DO. Last year they had three.

 

[gyngyn]

Thanks you

My in-state med school always has between one or two residents each year who are DO. Last year they had three.

There are lots of DO Ob-Gyn's. OP is asking about fellowship chances for Gyn Onc.

 

[toutou]

Gyn Onc is probably the most competitive sub-specialty in Ob-Gyn at present (and the most demanding).
Since I do not know how many DO's applied or what their applications looked like, I cannot tell you what the odds of success are for this subset of the population. I have not seen the fellowship applicants broken down by degree in any publication. Perhaps you could query the ABOG or SGO.

This is gonna sound like a silly question, but the merge that is happening, does this involve fellowship too or mainly residency? The OB I worked with told me that even though the merge is happening, MD-friendly programs can still continue on accepting MD applicants and there is no way to tell they are discriminating against D.O applicants because they can say the D.O applicant just didn't fit their criteria or mission.

 

[karayaa]

I completely agree with you all about gaining med school acceptance to be the #1 priority right now. But to me it's a little naive to go into this process without giving some thought for the main reason as to why I did this in the first place and gyn onc was the biggest reason I am leaving almost a decade nursing career for medicine. I just can't justify my actions later on in my life if I just go with the flow and find myself "stuck" If I plan on going with my original intention.

I would feel a little at ease if I knew that there were D.O fellowship available specifically in gyn onc. And I agree with you maybe those DO just didn't want to apply or have interest in the sub-specialty.

I appreciate all the replies and will definitely work hard to do well on the MCAT.

I think it's naive to apply without having some concrete end-stage career plans. If you don't know that you want to be a certain kind of doctor, then why would you apply? So I appreciate your perspective.

Have you worked with gyn onc doctors?
Is gyn onc the only reason you want to be a doctor? Would you be willing to do anything else? Or would you feel "stuck"?

You'll be exposed to many new opportunities, on a much deeper, more experiential level, during med school. Something like 75% of med students change their minds about residency, and your priorities and goals might change with time/experience. After ob gyn residency as well, you might feel differently about continuing your education to pursue a fellowship. Your family and financial situation might be different, and you might find that you enjoy vanilla obgyn or another field enough.

 

[toutou]

I think it's naive to apply without having some concrete end-stage career plans. If you don't know that you want to be a certain kind of doctor, then why would you apply? So I appreciate your perspective.

Have you worked with gyn onc doctors?
Is gyn onc the only reason you want to be a doctor? Would you be willing to do anything else? Or would you feel "stuck"?

You'll be exposed to many new opportunities, on a much deeper, more experiential level, during med school. Something like 75% of med students change their minds about residency, and your priorities and goals might change with time/experience. After ob gyn residency as well, you might feel differently about continuing your education to pursue a fellowship. Your family and financial situation might be different, and you might find that you enjoy vanilla obgyn or another field enough.

I have one years of experience so far on maternity and surgical onc, and for the past 6 years I've had experience in psych, med-surg, CVICU, and ER . I really enjoy the gyn onc cases that comes through and surgery is really interesting to me. I'm also interested in perspective research in cell biology and biochemistry with regards to teratoma.

I've worked with two gyn onc surgeon so far and they've both been amazing. But I'm not at a level with them where I can ask them personal questions about their experience etc yet.

I really enjoy OBGYN and can definitely see myself working in the field. But so far I only see that role as a nurse. It's very hard to truly understand it and be ok with it until I get a chance to do it.

 

[toutou]

So through AOA website, I was able to find three approved programs specifically for D.O in gyn onc so there is hope

 

[Psai]

This is gonna sound like a silly question, but the merge that is happening, does this involve fellowship too or mainly residency? The OB I worked with told me that even though the merge is happening, MD-friendly programs can still continue on accepting MD applicants and there is no way to tell they are discriminating against D.O applicants because they can say the D.O applicant just didn't fit their criteria or mission.

no one is discriminating against DOs just because of the letters behind their name. DOs are just weaker applicants in general and that's usually why they're in DO school instead of MD.

 

[AlteredScale]

So through AOA website, I was able to find three approved programs specifically for D.O in gyn onc so there is hope

Correct me if I'm wrong, but before the merger agreement many DOs were barred from ACGME fellowships. But now that that's in play I believe DOs will also be eligible for ACGME fellowships previously locked from them?

 

[gyngyn]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but before the merger agreement many DOs were barred from ACGME fellowships. But now that that's in play I believe DOs will also be eligible for ACGME fellowships previously locked from them?

As far as I know, DO's have not been officially "barred" from fellowships in Gyn Onc or anything else.
When the merger is completely implemented it is my understanding that graduates of accredited MD and DO programs will be eligible for all residencies and fellowships.

 

[AlteredScale]

As far as I know, DO's have not been officially "barred" from fellowships in Gyn Onc or anything else.
When the merger is completely implemented it is my understanding that graduates of accredited MD and DO programs will be eligible for all residencies and fellowships.

Ah okay. Thank you for that explanation Dr. Gyngyn.

I misinterpreted some other post on here then regarding an AOA residency graduate trying to enter an ACGME fellowship. It turns out they were an AOA fellowship grad seeking additional training in an ACGME fellowship. The program stated that they did not accept DO applicants who did not train in ACGME fellowships. Here's the post for clarification.

 

[gyngyn]

Ah okay. Thank you for that explanation Dr. Gyngyn.

I misinterpreted some other post on here then regarding an AOA residency graduate trying to enter an ACGME fellowship. It turns out they were an AOA fellowship grad seeking additional training in an ACGME fellowship. The program stated that they did not accept DO applicants who did not train in ACGME fellowships. Here's the post for clarification.

Yes. The proposal to bar DO's from ACGME fellowships is what prompted the talks on a merger.

 

[Meerkatology]

with every additional level of training, they care less about your previous one. i.e. if you are a DO applying to gyn-onc fellowship coming out of Stanford oby/gyn residency. They don't see you as a DO from x school, they see you as a resident from Stanford ob/gyn.

It may be harder to get straight into a super competitive residency like ortho coming out of DO school, but for fellowships, you have your residency as a buffer inbetween, if you get into a great ACGME residency i don't see why they even care about DO/MD in the first place.

there was a DO interventional cardiologist attending in my residency, those are pretty competitive last i checked.

But like others have said if you do ok on MCAT you are likely to end up in an MD school anyway. I'm not an ADcom but to me, 7 years of experience as a RN would hands down make any clinical experience most other people do as an undergrad look pathetic in comparison.

 

[AlteredScale]

Yes. The proposal to bar DO's from ACGME fellowships is what prompted the talks on a merger.

Ah I see. Thank you for the explanation!

 

[MiaMia14]

I am applying Ob/Gyn right now. If you take the usmle and do well on it there are a lot of acgme Ob/Gyn programs that will take you....even some of the better more academic ones that would help you get into a fellowship. One of the programs I rotated at had a DO program director that is a Gyn Onc. He graduated from that program and is fellowship trained. Many of the DOs that come out of that program (it's an acgme program but doesn't discriminate against DOs) go on to fellowships.

 

[MinervaMcGonagall]

I shadowed a DO named Dr. James Fanning at the Hershey Medical Center in PA in 2013. He was a Gynecologic Oncologist. I watched him perform two surgeries in the OR. They definitely exist.

https://profiles.psu.edu/profiles/display/113378