UQ-Ochsner 2014

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Great post greenmachine, thanks for the insight!

Are you from NYC? I noticed that you classified Brisbane (A city of over 2 million) as "a small, but rapidly growing town." haha

Glad it was helpful sidefx! Haha, I'm actually from the San Francisco Bay Area... "Town" might have been an excessive description of Brisbane, but it's not that far off. The entire "Brisbane" municipality might have over 2 million, but it is spread out over many suburbs. The city itself isn't very large (although I guess it is big if you aren't from a major urban area!) About 10-15 years ago it was much smaller. I think in 2011 Brisbane grew by about 50,000 people -- that's some quick population growth.

Even though people always talk about all the money in Australia from mining, there is also a ton of money from their building sector. Right now, Brisbane is THE place to be if you're a civic engineer, and the city is springing up like legoland. If you make conversation with enough people here, you'll probably eventually meet someone who worked on one of the new buildings in the CBD (central business district), which has a fairly impressive skyline. Yet if you ask anyone from Sydney or Melbourne over the age of 4o about Brisbane, they might still belittle it as a hick town, which is a reputation the city is desperately, and successfully, trying to outgrow. It was a really striking difference to move from Oakland, which is one of the worst-run cities in America, to Brisbane, which is one of the best-run cities in Australia. They have renowned foresight and planning here for urban projects, and a lot of enthusiasm to bedazzle the city.

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Glad it was helpful sidefx! Haha, I'm actually from the San Francisco Bay Area... "Town" might have been an excessive description of Brisbane, but it's not that far off. The entire "Brisbane" municipality might have over 2 million, but it is spread out over many suburbs. The city itself isn't very large (although I guess it is big if you aren't from a major urban area!) About 10-15 years ago it was much smaller. I think in 2011 Brisbane grew by about 50,000 people -- that's some quick population growth.

Even though people always talk about all the money in Australia from mining, there is also a ton of money from their building sector. Right now, Brisbane is THE place to be if you're a civic engineer, and the city is springing up like legoland. If you make conversation with enough people here, you'll probably eventually meet someone who worked on one of the new buildings in the CBD (central business district), which has a fairly impressive skyline. Yet if you ask anyone from Sydney or Melbourne over the age of 4o about Brisbane, they might still belittle it as a hick town, which is a reputation the city is desperately, and successfully, trying to outgrow. It was a really striking difference to move from Oakland, which is one of the worst-run cities in America, to Brisbane, which is one of the best-run cities in Australia. They have renowned foresight and planning here for urban projects, and a lot of enthusiasm to bedazzle the city.

Actually, pretty much everyone who has grown up in brisbane beomans the recent rapid development of Brisbane, and most consider what is going on in the CBD to be a travesty
 
Wow, looks like I stepped into some kinda flame war. Spoiler alert: I talk about my opinions about the USMLE below.

I just posted this in the 2013 thread, but figured it's probably more useful here. I just finished my first year at UQ Ochsner, and I'd like to offer my 2 cents to this discussion as someone who has a fair share of criticism about UQ, but can confidently say that it'll turn you into a doctor if that's your goal. It feels like yesterday when I was in your position, scouring SDN to try and figure out whether or not UQ is legit, and to convince myself that everything is going to be great if I come to UQ. Let's be honest: in order to make the investment and take the risk to come halfway around the world to go to med school, you need a bit of "confirmation bias" that it's going to be OK, by which I mean, you need to weigh the evidence that it's good (good QS international rankings, affiliation with Ochsner, etc) more than the evidence that it's bad (they let you in with a 26 MCAT and a 2.8 GPA, it's international, it's expensive, etc).

If you have already decided to come here next year, you can rest assured, UQ IS a legit medical school, and there are a ton of very well-qualified students in my class who love it. Before I came here, I was very curious about how everyone else "ended up" coming to UQ. I have been very pleasantly surprised that Americans in Ochsner are very good students, and usually interesting, well-traveled people. Some of my best friends here are from Ivy League schools (and that is a very popular ad hominem defense of the school that IMHO doesn't say very much about the education, but it seems to matter to a lot of people). To be honest, I am here because I screwed around too much in undergrad, and there are consequences (3.2 GPA, 31Q MCAT, because I know you are curious). But some of my friends are here simply because they had intense family, interpersonal, or health issues during undergrad that caused them to have one bad semester, and in the med school game, that is unfortunately enough to ruin your application, as I imagine some of you have already discovered for yourselves. The current president of the Ochsner Medical Student Association (OMSA) had something like a 39 MCAT, and he was basically just over-confident in his original round of US applications and turned them in late, another big no-no in med school applications, and that's how he ended up here. But he hit the ground running in Australia as an exemplary student doing all sorts of projects and research and never looked back. He writes on this board a lot, so you have probably read his posts above already, but I can vouch for him as a super-solid example of the kind of student UQ can put out, to the extent that you care about an anonymous stranger on the internet's opinion :)

As for the Australian students (some of whom are called "twoosies" because they did a 2-year science degree starting at age 17 and then went right into med school at age 19), they are really the cream of the crop here in Australia. UQ is one of the top med schools in the country (depending on the reference... it usually ranks in the top 4 or 5). It can be a bit infantilizing going to classes with 19 year old Australian colleagues. No one prepared me for that before I came here. Sometimes I question just what the hell I DID learn during my 4 year undergrad degree, because a lot of these kids are SMART. It's humbling, and you just gotta get over it if you come here (easier said than done).

There are a few facilities that I found surprisingly good here. The anatomy lab is actually pretty sweet. It's open most days of the week, so you can come in and take a liver or a heart sample out of a bucket and drill down your anatomy. I've never had trouble dealing with that area. The actual anatomy practical labs are crowded and not entirely useful, but that is more than made up for by how good it is on off-hours (i'm going to get in trouble for telling you this, because it's a bit of a well-guarded secret). There are usually tutors or just well-informed colleagues in the lab who are more than happy to help you out. Before I came here everyone made a huge fuss about whether or not there was a wet cadaver lab. First of all, there is. And about half-way through the year, you can start doing dissections. But more importantly, you will learn VERY quickly that the presence or absence of a wet lab really doesn't make much of a difference to your anatomy education. All you surgery hot shots will have plenty of time to get your hands on some organs at the appropriate time; it's not a very important part of year 1 (1).

However, there are a lot of things about UQ that drive me crazy. For starters, let's be real: no matter what anyone says, you will probably be less competitive in matching to a residency if you come here. That's just how the world works. Doctor's care about pedigree, and so do we. That's why we're asking all these questions about the pedigree of UQ, right? I'm sick of all the misleading "no one will see you differently" rhetoric, because it's not true. But that on its own is not a reason not to come to UQ. We all know that you are considering UQ because things didn't work out in the US (2). If you don't go to med school, you'll have ZERO chance at matching a residency, so don't dwell on residency stats. Your chances at matching after graduating from UQ are still probably better than if you went to the Caribbean, so as far as studying medicine abroad, the only international school that off the top of my head might be slightly better in terms of pedigree is the Columbia-Israel program, but this is all just speculation; I can't really speak too informatively about that, and very few people can. Be aware before you come here of the fact that you are going to get an MBBS degree if you come here before 2015. Everyone tells me it's exactly the same as an MD. I doubt it's the exact same for the same reasons as I've given about residency matching, but from everything I've read and US doctors I've talked to thus far, it is seen by most people as exactly the same (3). Real US doctors are actually the least judgmental people about Australian med school. The most common response I usually get is, "damn, I wish I'd done that!" This whole paragraph could be re-written as the following sentiment: "don't let 'great' be the enemy of 'good'."

In a more general sense, studying at UQ is probably not what you've always dreamed that "Medical School" would be like. UQ is a giant state university (something like 70,000 students in the whole system or so), and there are about 500 1st year medical students. The administration treats you like a statistic. The administration is a huge pain in the ass to deal with, and they are infamously disorganized. They lost a friend's midterm last semester... that level of disorganization (don't worry they found it eventually, and they always sort out the problems sooner or later). I've heard UQ described as "Kafka-esque," and that is spot on from my experience. "Surgical theater of the absurd" is also a decent pun. There are all sorts of bureaucratic annoyances, It was a bit disarming to have to compete for seating in the lecture hall on my first day of classes. It is equally disarming that this leads to a culture of skipping lecture among Ochsner students, a suggestion you will receive from 2nd years when you first get here that I believe ought to be taken with a big grain of salt.

Perhaps the worst part of the medical education here is the practical labs. They are about as crappy as any undergrad lab you've ever had. Microbio is a joke, seriously. Again, I don't think that is a reason not to come here on its own, although it is quite annoying. The annoyance is two-fold. After the obvious annoyance of having to waste our time in these over-stuffed labs, it is also annoying because it shifts the onus of learning microbio to Ochsner students. Because you need to know microbio for the USMLE Step 1.

Ah, the USMLE , aka, "The Boards." If you come here and want to score some friends quickly, read up on the USMLE before you come here, because Ochsner students LOVE to talk about it. Everyone freaks out about it because it is believed that UQ doesn't adequately prepare its students for the USMLE. To be honest, I can't speak intelligently about this subject. There are USMLE tutorials every week put on by second year med students, and they are as good as tutorials can be from 2nd year med students who haven't taken the test themselves who are busier than you are and just learned this stuff the year before... which is to say there is a range in the quality of the sessions. The issue is the universal uncertainty surrounding the USMLE. People who love to speak authoritatively will do so about the USMLE for as long as you're willing to listen, but that doesn't mean that anything they say is veracious. This leads to a bit of "paralysis by analysis" for some people, who spend half the year searching for the "best" way to study without actually doing any studying for the test. "Which review book is the best?" "Have you started Q bank yet?" "Oh, I use Kaplan, it's better." "Oh, I hate the Made Ridiculously Simple series." Everyone has an opinion. The people who are most successful are good at tuning all this banter out, and just picking a resource and sticking with it. My opinion: you can track to Phloston's 30 page confession about how he studied for the USMLE to get such an insanely high score, and it's pretty insane. Pretty much every first year med student I've met has an initial delusion that they are just going to "buckle down" and do what it takes to get such a high score, and most people realize that they really don't feel like putting in that kind of effort. You can be your own judge, but it reminds me of how most pre-meds talk about how ****ty a 30 is on the MCAT before they take it having no clue of how much studying it takes to do really well on that test.

There are some non-medical aspects to the education that are also a huge pain in the ass. We have to take bioethics for the two australian pre-clinical years. But this isn't heady "bioethics" about categorical imperatives and all that (although there is a bit of that); it's Australian bioethics. So you need to learn a bunch of esoteric facts about Australian Law that will never matter to you once you leave Australia. Some of it is a bit interesting, but most of it is just busywork. Frankly, 100% of my friends just crammed last minute for bioethics exams. Everyone did fine (some of us actually got 7s, the UQ equivalent of an A), but it added what felt like an unnecessary amount of stress. The Aboriginal Health class was actually a bit more interesting if you're the type of person who likes anthropology or public health. If you're going to live in Australia for a few years, I think it's important to develop a bit of an understanding of the culture here, and it was interesting, albeit sad, to learn about the colonialism here and its lasting consequences on Aboriginal communities. That being said, some Ochsner students hated that class, and perhaps you will too, but it can be bearable if you see it as a culturally-enriching opportunity.

As for what it's like living in Brisbane, it's a small, but rapidly growing town. If you like sun, you'll love Brisbane. After the brutal (by my standards) summer ends around March, the weather becomes quite temperate for the rest of the year. I personally prefer cloudy days, but I realize I'm an outlier. I love riding the ferry to school. Perhaps because of the weather, people tend to show a lot of skin here. Guys wear short shorts, girls wear short skirts. Perhaps I've just forgotten what it's like to be around 19 year olds. Coffee (a "long black"= an Americano) costs about $3.50-$4.00 for a cup, and beer is about $17 for a six pack. Frankly, you get used to it. I mean, you're planning on dropping like a quarter of a million dollars or something like that on your medical education, nickel-and-diming a few bucks on commodities really shouldn't make or break your decision. It is a bit frustrating that the beach isn't as close as I'd like it to be. I don't have a car here, but I think investing in one, or maybe splitting one with some friends, is a pretty good idea if you want to get out of Brisbane. There are a lot of fun things to do in the surrounding area, and it can be life-affirming to get away from med school stress, if only for an afternoon.

I hope this has added to your appraisal of what UQ is like. I hope I didn't come off as pedantic about anything. Perhaps the biggest thing I learned after a year here is how important it is to be in med school because YOU want to be in med school. It was pretty crushing for me when I didn't get into US schools, and I think I went a bit crazy frantically trying to get to med school at any cost after that. Now that I'm here, I've realized that for me, med school isn't the end all and be all of my life or my ability to help other people. If you want to go to med school because you want to "help" others, I'd recommend doing a bit of soul-searching before you sign up to come all the way to UQ, because whatever factors that led you not to get into US med school in the first place might be telling you that med school isn't right for you. And I think it's important to be OK with that (4).

Good luck with your applications, and feel free to PM me if you have any questions.


footnotes:
1) I personally don't find anything too educational about dissections after you've got the basic understanding of the body. People make a big deal about anatomy and cutting open cadavers because it is the most aesthetically "med schooly" thing you do in year 1, but it's not THAT important. The reason med schools have reduced the amount of anatomy education we do is because the people who write the curriculum had to endure an unnecessary amount of anatomy during year 1 when they were in med school, and they decided to spare us and use the time to focus on physiology more. And to be clear, I'm not taking a side in the "medicine vs. surgery" debate here; I just don't think it's important for anyone to focus on surgical skills during year one.

2) As the saying goes, if it's too good to be true, it's too good to be true. If you are wondering why UQ let you in, you just need to follow the money to understand why they are willing to accept you when US schools might have rejected you. International student fees are a huge boom, and the cost to them of having a few of the unqualified international students drop out is much less than the amount they rake in from us. There is a notorious shortage of residency programs in Australia right now, so they are leveraging Ochsner's clinical resources. In turn, Ochsner is leveraging UQ's substantial research resources. This place is really a research powerhouse. You know how they love to brag how they are one of the top 50 med schools in the world according to QS rankings? A lot of that reputation comes from the component of the ranking calculation that comes from research. If they improved the actual teaching, they'd probably rank higher.

3) There is also a lot of talk about whether or not you will be able to practice in all 50 states if you graduate from UQ. The truth is that if you graduate from the normal 4-year uq medical degree, you can practice in all 50 states. The UQ ochsner program simply has not been evaluated yet, but I think there is strong evidence that it will eventually be OK. Trust me, the uncertainty freaks me out too. The only cup-half-full rationalization I can provide is that as doctors, we'll need to be able to feel comfortable with a bit of uncertainty, right?

4) If you went to Ghana every summer of undergrad to help out in an orphanage and used that experience as the linchpin of your medical school application, are you sure that you're favorite part of that experience was the medical aspect? Maybe you are better suited for international aide? I'm not trying to be antagonistic here; I just personally would have benefited from considering this type of thing before I came to UQ. I spent a lot of energy this year trying to understand why I'm in med school, and I that is energy I could have saved if I would have been more willing to consider another career before I comitted to med school. I understand the pressure that you or your friends and family might put on yourself because of the "prestige" of a medical degree, but that might not be enough to make you content with your time at UQ in the long run.
Honestly, the best post i've seen on this thread. I think you need to make this post its own thread :)
 
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Actually, pretty much everyone who has grown up in brisbane beomans the recent rapid development of Brisbane, and most consider what is going on in the CBD to be a travesty

Yeah, everyone who grew up in my hometown does the exact same thing... I guess that's a territorial thing
 
Very, very well said GreenMachine86. Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts and insights. It is exactly this sort of thing that people actually want to know and hear. Your balanced tone and writing affords for some very good information for prospective students to analyze their own situation, desires, and motivations to attend medical school. As someone just wrapping up their first year, you can offer more insight than I could, so thank you again for taking the time.

I cannot take issue with anything you have said. To my knowledge it is all factually correct (except that the current President of OMSA got a 38R, not a 39 but what's a point amongst friends?) and, IMHO, reasonably fairly characterizes the pros and cons of the program. I could quibble about a few things but the only one nit I will pick is that of the MBBS degree - it really and honestly makes absolutely no distinction. The only distinction is whether you are an IMG or AMG. If you have an MBBS you must be an IMG, of course, but there is no additional negativity that the MBBS adds to the IMG status. You go through the ECFMG and when you are applying for residencies and licensures that is all that matters. The ECFMG certifies that your degree is equivalent to an MD and so for any purposes programs could care less what the actual letters of that degree are. It is all the same - ECFMG equivalent degree. Once you get your residency, you can choose to keep MBBS after your name on your badge or white coat but most put MD after their name.

I'll add on that it is (unfortunately) true that IMG status pretty much immediately puts you at an average disadvantage (there are programs where they actually really don't care about the distinction, but these are few and far between and typically not the top programs anyways). But that is pure egocentrism amongst the 'Murricans. By anecdote: one of the peds heme/onc guys I worked with had a friend who went to med school at Oxford, did peds residency in Canada, and then did a peds intensivist fellowship at MGH (Harvard). He then applied for a staff position in their hometown of Chicago. They agreed to hire him... after he repeated his intern year of peds residency, because he was an IMG. He was so affronted by this he told them to piss off. And ended up going to - of all places - Australia to practice as an intensivist. These are the realities that we must face in our decisions. And yes, there are many other ways besides being a doctor to "help people." Something I tell everyone whippersnapper who asks about getting into med school. You should be a doctor because you can't imagine yourself being happy doing something else. If you do that, you will find yourself happy no matter what, and all the annoyances that GreenMachine mentions will be just that - annoyances you forget about as you move on. If you don't, you will find yourself dwelling on them and hating life when you have to deal with them. You will also be unhappy waking up at 3:30am so you can round on your patients at 4:15 to have notes written by 5 so you can start your rounds at 6 and then do 10 hours of surgery, just to do it all again the next day. There will always be something that really sucks about medical school. Whether that is an administration that loses your paperwork, a crappy professor that doesn't teach well, a resident that makes you do stupid scut work, an attending that yells at you and belittles you for not knowing something, there will always be these things no matter where you go to medical school. US med schools are infamous for a lot of the latter two. I would argue our program (UQ-O) is vastly superior on them, and probably worse on the former two. But if you truly love what you do and are excited about being a doctor those things will roll off your back. Occasionally only with the help of some good friends and a lot of beer, but you will always be able to look back and feel content in having made the right decision and proud of what you have accomplished.
 
Wow, looks like I stepped into some kinda flame war. Spoiler alert: I talk about my opinions about the USMLE below.

I just posted this in the 2013 thread, but figured it's probably more useful here. I just finished my first year at UQ Ochsner, and I'd like to offer my 2 cents to this discussion as someone who has a fair share of criticism about UQ, but can confidently say that it'll turn you into a doctor if that's your goal. It feels like yesterday when I was in your position, scouring SDN to try and figure out whether or not UQ is legit, and to convince myself that everything is going to be great if I come to UQ. Let's be honest: in order to make the investment and take the risk to come halfway around the world to go to med school, you need a bit of "confirmation bias" that it's going to be OK, by which I mean, you need to weigh the evidence that it's good (good QS international rankings, affiliation with Ochsner, etc) more than the evidence that it's bad (they let you in with a 26 MCAT and a 2.8 GPA, it's international, it's expensive, etc).

If you have already decided to come here next year, you can rest assured, UQ IS a legit medical school, and there are a ton of very well-qualified students in my class who love it. Before I came here, I was very curious about how everyone else "ended up" coming to UQ. I have been very pleasantly surprised that Americans in Ochsner are very good students, and usually interesting, well-traveled people. Some of my best friends here are from Ivy League schools (and that is a very popular ad hominem defense of the school that IMHO doesn't say very much about the education, but it seems to matter to a lot of people). To be honest, I am here because I screwed around too much in undergrad, and there are consequences (3.2 GPA, 31Q MCAT, because I know you are curious). But some of my friends are here simply because they had intense family, interpersonal, or health issues during undergrad that caused them to have one bad semester, and in the med school game, that is unfortunately enough to ruin your application, as I imagine some of you have already discovered for yourselves. The current president of the Ochsner Medical Student Association (OMSA) had something like a 39 MCAT, and he was basically just over-confident in his original round of US applications and turned them in late, another big no-no in med school applications, and that's how he ended up here. But he hit the ground running in Australia as an exemplary student doing all sorts of projects and research and never looked back. He writes on this board a lot, so you have probably read his posts above already, but I can vouch for him as a super-solid example of the kind of student UQ can put out, to the extent that you care about an anonymous stranger on the internet's opinion :)

As for the Australian students (some of whom are called "twoosies" because they did a 2-year science degree starting at age 17 and then went right into med school at age 19), they are really the cream of the crop here in Australia. UQ is one of the top med schools in the country (depending on the reference... it usually ranks in the top 4 or 5). It can be a bit infantilizing going to classes with 19 year old Australian colleagues. No one prepared me for that before I came here. Sometimes I question just what the hell I DID learn during my 4 year undergrad degree, because a lot of these kids are SMART. It's humbling, and you just gotta get over it if you come here (easier said than done).

There are a few facilities that I found surprisingly good here. The anatomy lab is actually pretty sweet. It's open most days of the week, so you can come in and take a liver or a heart sample out of a bucket and drill down your anatomy. I've never had trouble dealing with that area. The actual anatomy practical labs are crowded and not entirely useful, but that is more than made up for by how good it is on off-hours (i'm going to get in trouble for telling you this, because it's a bit of a well-guarded secret). There are usually tutors or just well-informed colleagues in the lab who are more than happy to help you out. Before I came here everyone made a huge fuss about whether or not there was a wet cadaver lab. First of all, there is. And about half-way through the year, you can start doing dissections. But more importantly, you will learn VERY quickly that the presence or absence of a wet lab really doesn't make much of a difference to your anatomy education. All you surgery hot shots will have plenty of time to get your hands on some organs at the appropriate time; it's not a very important part of year 1 (1).

However, there are a lot of things about UQ that drive me crazy. For starters, let's be real: no matter what anyone says, you will probably be less competitive in matching to a residency if you come here. That's just how the world works. Doctor's care about pedigree, and so do we. That's why we're asking all these questions about the pedigree of UQ, right? I'm sick of all the misleading "no one will see you differently" rhetoric, because it's not true. But that on its own is not a reason not to come to UQ. We all know that you are considering UQ because things didn't work out in the US (2). If you don't go to med school, you'll have ZERO chance at matching a residency, so don't dwell on residency stats. Your chances at matching after graduating from UQ are still probably better than if you went to the Caribbean, so as far as studying medicine abroad, the only international school that off the top of my head might be slightly better in terms of pedigree is the Columbia-Israel program, but this is all just speculation; I can't really speak too informatively about that, and very few people can. Be aware before you come here of the fact that you are going to get an MBBS degree if you come here before 2015. Everyone tells me it's exactly the same as an MD. I doubt it's the exact same for the same reasons as I've given about residency matching, but from everything I've read and US doctors I've talked to thus far, it is seen by most people as exactly the same (3). Real US doctors are actually the least judgmental people about Australian med school. The most common response I usually get is, "damn, I wish I'd done that!" This whole paragraph could be re-written as the following sentiment: "don't let 'great' be the enemy of 'good'."

In a more general sense, studying at UQ is probably not what you've always dreamed that "Medical School" would be like. UQ is a giant state university (something like 70,000 students in the whole system or so), and there are about 500 1st year medical students. The administration treats you like a statistic. The administration is a huge pain in the ass to deal with, and they are infamously disorganized. They lost a friend's midterm last semester... that level of disorganization (don't worry they found it eventually, and they always sort out the problems sooner or later). I've heard UQ described as "Kafka-esque," and that is spot on from my experience. "Surgical theater of the absurd" is also a decent pun. There are all sorts of bureaucratic annoyances, It was a bit disarming to have to compete for seating in the lecture hall on my first day of classes. It is equally disarming that this leads to a culture of skipping lecture among Ochsner students, a suggestion you will receive from 2nd years when you first get here that I believe ought to be taken with a big grain of salt.

Perhaps the worst part of the medical education here is the practical labs. They are about as crappy as any undergrad lab you've ever had. Microbio is a joke, seriously. Again, I don't think that is a reason not to come here on its own, although it is quite annoying. The annoyance is two-fold. After the obvious annoyance of having to waste our time in these over-stuffed labs, it is also annoying because it shifts the onus of learning microbio to Ochsner students. Because you need to know microbio for the USMLE Step 1.

Ah, the USMLE , aka, "The Boards." If you come here and want to score some friends quickly, read up on the USMLE before you come here, because Ochsner students LOVE to talk about it. Everyone freaks out about it because it is believed that UQ doesn't adequately prepare its students for the USMLE. To be honest, I can't speak intelligently about this subject. There are USMLE tutorials every week put on by second year med students, and they are as good as tutorials can be from 2nd year med students who haven't taken the test themselves who are busier than you are and just learned this stuff the year before... which is to say there is a range in the quality of the sessions. The issue is the universal uncertainty surrounding the USMLE. People who love to speak authoritatively will do so about the USMLE for as long as you're willing to listen, but that doesn't mean that anything they say is veracious. This leads to a bit of "paralysis by analysis" for some people, who spend half the year searching for the "best" way to study without actually doing any studying for the test. "Which review book is the best?" "Have you started Q bank yet?" "Oh, I use Kaplan, it's better." "Oh, I hate the Made Ridiculously Simple series." Everyone has an opinion. The people who are most successful are good at tuning all this banter out, and just picking a resource and sticking with it. My opinion: you can track to Phloston's 30 page confession about how he studied for the USMLE to get such an insanely high score, and it's pretty insane. Pretty much every first year med student I've met has an initial delusion that they are just going to "buckle down" and do what it takes to get such a high score, and most people realize that they really don't feel like putting in that kind of effort. You can be your own judge, but it reminds me of how most pre-meds talk about how ****ty a 30 is on the MCAT before they take it having no clue of how much studying it takes to do really well on that test.

There are some non-medical aspects to the education that are also a huge pain in the ass. We have to take bioethics for the two australian pre-clinical years. But this isn't heady "bioethics" about categorical imperatives and all that (although there is a bit of that); it's Australian bioethics. So you need to learn a bunch of esoteric facts about Australian Law that will never matter to you once you leave Australia. Some of it is a bit interesting, but most of it is just busywork. Frankly, 100% of my friends just crammed last minute for bioethics exams. Everyone did fine (some of us actually got 7s, the UQ equivalent of an A), but it added what felt like an unnecessary amount of stress. The Aboriginal Health class was actually a bit more interesting if you're the type of person who likes anthropology or public health. If you're going to live in Australia for a few years, I think it's important to develop a bit of an understanding of the culture here, and it was interesting, albeit sad, to learn about the colonialism here and its lasting consequences on Aboriginal communities. That being said, some Ochsner students hated that class, and perhaps you will too, but it can be bearable if you see it as a culturally-enriching opportunity.

As for what it's like living in Brisbane, it's a small, but rapidly growing town. If you like sun, you'll love Brisbane. After the brutal (by my standards) summer ends around March, the weather becomes quite temperate for the rest of the year. I personally prefer cloudy days, but I realize I'm an outlier. I love riding the ferry to school. Perhaps because of the weather, people tend to show a lot of skin here. Guys wear short shorts, girls wear short skirts. Perhaps I've just forgotten what it's like to be around 19 year olds. Coffee (a "long black"= an Americano) costs about $3.50-$4.00 for a cup, and beer is about $17 for a six pack. Frankly, you get used to it. I mean, you're planning on dropping like a quarter of a million dollars or something like that on your medical education, nickel-and-diming a few bucks on commodities really shouldn't make or break your decision. It is a bit frustrating that the beach isn't as close as I'd like it to be. I don't have a car here, but I think investing in one, or maybe splitting one with some friends, is a pretty good idea if you want to get out of Brisbane. There are a lot of fun things to do in the surrounding area, and it can be life-affirming to get away from med school stress, if only for an afternoon.

I hope this has added to your appraisal of what UQ is like. I hope I didn't come off as pedantic about anything. Perhaps the biggest thing I learned after a year here is how important it is to be in med school because YOU want to be in med school. It was pretty crushing for me when I didn't get into US schools, and I think I went a bit crazy frantically trying to get to med school at any cost after that. Now that I'm here, I've realized that for me, med school isn't the end all and be all of my life or my ability to help other people. If you want to go to med school because you want to "help" others, I'd recommend doing a bit of soul-searching before you sign up to come all the way to UQ, because whatever factors that led you not to get into US med school in the first place might be telling you that med school isn't right for you. And I think it's important to be OK with that (4).

Good luck with your applications, and feel free to PM me if you have any questions.


footnotes:
1) I personally don't find anything too educational about dissections after you've got the basic understanding of the body. People make a big deal about anatomy and cutting open cadavers because it is the most aesthetically "med schooly" thing you do in year 1, but it's not THAT important. The reason med schools have reduced the amount of anatomy education we do is because the people who write the curriculum had to endure an unnecessary amount of anatomy during year 1 when they were in med school, and they decided to spare us and use the time to focus on physiology more. And to be clear, I'm not taking a side in the "medicine vs. surgery" debate here; I just don't think it's important for anyone to focus on surgical skills during year one.

2) As the saying goes, if it's too good to be true, it's too good to be true. If you are wondering why UQ let you in, you just need to follow the money to understand why they are willing to accept you when US schools might have rejected you. International student fees are a huge boom, and the cost to them of having a few of the unqualified international students drop out is much less than the amount they rake in from us. There is a notorious shortage of residency programs in Australia right now, so they are leveraging Ochsner's clinical resources. In turn, Ochsner is leveraging UQ's substantial research resources. This place is really a research powerhouse. You know how they love to brag how they are one of the top 50 med schools in the world according to QS rankings? A lot of that reputation comes from the component of the ranking calculation that comes from research. If they improved the actual teaching, they'd probably rank higher.

3) There is also a lot of talk about whether or not you will be able to practice in all 50 states if you graduate from UQ. The truth is that if you graduate from the normal 4-year uq medical degree, you can practice in all 50 states. The UQ ochsner program simply has not been evaluated yet, but I think there is strong evidence that it will eventually be OK. Trust me, the uncertainty freaks me out too. The only cup-half-full rationalization I can provide is that as doctors, we'll need to be able to feel comfortable with a bit of uncertainty, right?

4) If you went to Ghana every summer of undergrad to help out in an orphanage and used that experience as the linchpin of your medical school application, are you sure that you're favorite part of that experience was the medical aspect? Maybe you are better suited for international aide? I'm not trying to be antagonistic here; I just personally would have benefited from considering this type of thing before I came to UQ. I spent a lot of energy this year trying to understand why I'm in med school, and I that is energy I could have saved if I would have been more willing to consider another career before I comitted to med school. I understand the pressure that you or your friends and family might put on yourself because of the "prestige" of a medical degree, but that might not be enough to make you content with your time at UQ in the long run.

This is a very candid, genuine and well-written post, but there are just a few things to point out:

1) Please be careful not to over-generalize with regard to the internationals in the program. Although you are spot-on that many don't seek / have not sought placement at an Australian medical school as a primary choice, there are others who really want / wanted to be here for the experience. Avoid framing this program as second-tier. Despite much of our truthful criticism of UQ on an absolute scale, relatively speaking, the rankings don't lie, and we actually are a more solid program than many USA schools, irrespective of the IMG vs AMG status.

2) The MBBS vs MD title is only a distinction that is held while working in Australia. If you choose to take the MBBS back to the States, based on ECFMG certification, the MBBS becomes an MD. Any MBBS earned in Australia can be written as an MD credential in the USA. The confusion over this matter is why the Australian schools have now begun converting / advertising their degrees as MD instead of MBBS.

3) The "twosies" are relatively capable and are generally used to being the ones a step ahead of their peers. When you mix them with post-grads, some of whom have advanced degrees and extensive medical-related work experience, this can cause conflict. It's to my observation that one of the subtle cultural differences between the USA and Australia is that the Aussie students, particularly the younger ones, have a propensity to take umbrage to being challenged in the classroom; I never saw anything remotely close to this during my undergrad in Boston.

4) Agree with your points on the large school and non-personalized Tx of students by the admin.

5) I'm not sure how you've developed the conclusion you've made in your third sentence of footnote #1, but no Australian-trained physician I've spoken to has said that he or she had endured an "unnecessary amount" of anatomy during his or her medical school period. The truth is, the anatomy is cut back at UQ because they can't handle the large number of medical students. That's a fact. Smaller programs have better attention to a personalized anatomy experience, and UQ is the largest medical school in the world.

6) Good point about many students having poor productivity because of not knowing how to proceed with studying, but, in defense of Ochsner, this is a phenomenon that is universal. The USMLE is 90% a self-taught curriculum. It doesn't matter how many times someone drills lecture material at you, in the end, it's on you to sit in your room, stare off into space and recite lines of material over and over again.

7) You're right that EtOH is pretty expensive here. Patron silver is $100 for 750 mL, but in the States it's $40. There's a really good beer place in the West End, called The Burrow, that I recommend checking out if you haven't already. That's the go-to place for a pizza and beer.
 
Great posts here. I don't really have much knowledge about the current UQ-Ochsner curriculum, and my interaction with UQ-Ochsner students was limited to the few USMLE tutorials that I held for the first year cohort. But I'll add my two cents about my experience in the regular program, from which I graduated 4 years ago.

I think the biggest factor that someone should consider before enrolling in the UQ-Ochsner program (or the regular program) is his/her learning style and comfort level in self-directed learning. As Phloston, nybgrus, GreenMachine86 and others have said, the USMLE preparation will be mostly self-taught and self-driven. There's probably no way around that. In terms of contact hours (lectures and PBL sessions), UQ program is probably on the lower side compared to US med schools. I personally don't find didactic lectures very helpful in general, so I probably only attended 30% of lectures in first year and about 10% in second year. That gave me additional time to focus on my USMLE preparation, and I loved the freedom of being in charge of my own study time/approach. I am a pathology resident now, and the majority of learning that takes place in post-graduate setting has been self-directed. Looking back, my experience at UQ actually helped shape my learning style and habits, and I am grateful for that.

On the other hand, if someone benefits more from the traditional curriculum (more contact hours, didactic lectures, and exams at monthly intervals) and needs more guidance on what to study, then he/she should probably consider another program or learn to adapt a new learning style.
 
This is a very candid, genuine and well-written post, but there are just a few things to point out:

1) Please be careful not to over-generalize with regard to the internationals in the program. Although you are spot-on that many don't seek / have not sought placement at an Australian medical school as a primary choice, there are others who really want / wanted to be here for the experience. Avoid framing this program as second-tier. Despite much of our truthful criticism of UQ on an absolute scale, relatively speaking, the rankings don't lie, and we actually are a more solid program than many USA schools, irrespective of the IMG vs AMG status.

2) The MBBS vs MD title is only a distinction that is held while working in Australia. If you choose to take the MBBS back to the States, based on ECFMG certification, the MBBS becomes an MD. Any MBBS earned in Australia can be written as an MD credential in the USA. The confusion over this matter is why the Australian schools have now begun converting / advertising their degrees as MD instead of MBBS.

3) The "twosies" are relatively capable and are generally used to being the ones a step ahead of their peers. When you mix them with post-grads, some of whom have advanced degrees and extensive medical-related work experience, this can cause conflict. It's to my observation that one of the subtle cultural differences between the USA and Australia is that the Aussie students, particularly the younger ones, have a propensity to take umbrage to being challenged in the classroom; I never saw anything remotely close to this during my undergrad in Boston.

4) Agree with your points on the large school and non-personalized Tx of students by the admin.

5) I'm not sure how you've developed the conclusion you've made in your third sentence of footnote #1, but no Australian-trained physician I've spoken to has said that he or she had endured an "unnecessary amount" of anatomy during his or her medical school period. The truth is, the anatomy is cut back at UQ because they can't handle the large number of medical students. That's a fact. Smaller programs have better attention to a personalized anatomy experience, and UQ is the largest medical school in the world.

6) Good point about many students having poor productivity because of not knowing how to proceed with studying, but, in defense of Ochsner, this is a phenomenon that is universal. The USMLE is 90% a self-taught curriculum. It doesn't matter how many times someone drills lecture material at you, in the end, it's on you to sit in your room, stare off into space and recite lines of material over and over again.

7) You're right that EtOH is pretty expensive here. Patron silver is $100 for 750 mL, but in the States it's $40. There's a really good beer place in the West End, called The Burrow, that I recommend checking out if you haven't already. That's the go-to place for a pizza and beer.

I said I wouldn't pick many nits, but if I did they would generally fall along those lines. I don't think rankings mean much within a tertile, but between tertiles they probably do. We could quibble over whether that should be quartiles instead of tertiles, but you get my point.

I especially agree with #6.
 
Great posts here. I don't really have much knowledge about the current UQ-Ochsner curriculum, and my interaction with UQ-Ochsner students was limited to the few USMLE tutorials that I held for the first year cohort. But I'll add my two cents about my experience in the regular program, from which I graduated 4 years ago.

I think the biggest factor that someone should consider before enrolling in the UQ-Ochsner program (or the regular program) is his/her learning style and comfort level in self-directed learning. As Phloston, nybgrus, GreenMachine86 and others have said, the USMLE preparation will be mostly self-taught and self-driven. There's probably no way around that. In terms of contact hours (lectures and PBL sessions), UQ program is probably on the lower side compared to US med schools. I personally don't find didactic lectures very helpful in general, so I probably only attended 30% of lectures in first year and about 10% in second year. That gave me additional time to focus on my USMLE preparation, and I loved the freedom of being in charge of my own study time/approach. I am a pathology resident now, and the majority of learning that takes place in post-graduate setting has been self-directed. Looking back, my experience at UQ actually helped shape my learning style and habits, and I am grateful for that.

On the other hand, if someone benefits more from the traditional curriculum (more contact hours, didactic lectures, and exams at monthly intervals) and needs more guidance on what to study, then he/she should probably consider another program or learn to adapt a new learning style.

Hi Pollux! Thanks for coming in and posting. We've met ages ago and your thoughts then helped me in feeling more confident about joining the program.

For those who don't know, Pollux is an American who did the traditional 4 year UQ program (his Year 4 was the first year of UQ-O), scored the highest I've ever heard of on the Step 1, and went back stateside for a pathology residency (all of this info can be easily found out - and more - by looking through his old posts about the Step, which he chronicled as a detailed anthology for anyone who wants an insanely rigorous study program).

In any event, even though you graduated as I started, my experience and recommendation (particularly the last line) echoes mine.
 
Hi Pollux! Thanks for coming in and posting. We've met ages ago and your thoughts then helped me in feeling more confident about joining the program.

For those who don't know, Pollux is an American who did the traditional 4 year UQ program (his Year 4 was the first year of UQ-O), scored the highest I've ever heard of on the Step 1, and went back stateside for a pathology residency (all of this info can be easily found out - and more - by looking through his old posts about the Step, which he chronicled as a detailed anthology for anyone who wants an insanely rigorous study program).

In any event, even though you graduated as I started, my experience and recommendation (particularly the last line) echoes mine.

Hey nybgrus,

Did we meet in person in New Orleans? You'll have to excuse me for my horrible memory... Glad to hear you're doing well at UQ! Thanks for your kind words about me. I'm Taiwanese though, and I'm currently in the US on a working visa. And for current UQ students aiming to excel on the USMLE, I would actually recommend them to read Phloston's preparation. It's more up to date with more current information about the exam. I wrote maybe like 2 posts about my exam preparation and experience; Phloston wrote a book. :wideyed:
 
This is a very candid, genuine and well-written post, but there are just a few things to point out:

1) Please be careful not to over-generalize with regard to the internationals in the program. Although you are spot-on that many don't seek / have not sought placement at an Australian medical school as a primary choice, there are others who really want / wanted to be here for the experience. Avoid framing this program as second-tier. Despite much of our truthful criticism of UQ on an absolute scale, relatively speaking, the rankings don't lie, and we actually are a more solid program than many USA schools, irrespective of the IMG vs AMG status.

2) The MBBS vs MD title is only a distinction that is held while working in Australia. If you choose to take the MBBS back to the States, based on ECFMG certification, the MBBS becomes an MD. Any MBBS earned in Australia can be written as an MD credential in the USA. The confusion over this matter is why the Australian schools have now begun converting / advertising their degrees as MD instead of MBBS.

3) The "twosies" are relatively capable and are generally used to being the ones a step ahead of their peers. When you mix them with post-grads, some of whom have advanced degrees and extensive medical-related work experience, this can cause conflict. It's to my observation that one of the subtle cultural differences between the USA and Australia is that the Aussie students, particularly the younger ones, have a propensity to take umbrage to being challenged in the classroom; I never saw anything remotely close to this during my undergrad in Boston.

4) Agree with your points on the large school and non-personalized Tx of students by the admin.

5) I'm not sure how you've developed the conclusion you've made in your third sentence of footnote #1, but no Australian-trained physician I've spoken to has said that he or she had endured an "unnecessary amount" of anatomy during his or her medical school period. The truth is, the anatomy is cut back at UQ because they can't handle the large number of medical students. That's a fact. Smaller programs have better attention to a personalized anatomy experience, and UQ is the largest medical school in the world.

6) Good point about many students having poor productivity because of not knowing how to proceed with studying, but, in defense of Ochsner, this is a phenomenon that is universal. The USMLE is 90% a self-taught curriculum. It doesn't matter how many times someone drills lecture material at you, in the end, it's on you to sit in your room, stare off into space and recite lines of material over and over again.

7) You're right that EtOH is pretty expensive here. Patron silver is $100 for 750 mL, but in the States it's $40. There's a really good beer place in the West End, called The Burrow, that I recommend checking out if you haven't already. That's the go-to place for a pizza and beer.

Thanks for the reply, I appreciate the clarifications. I don't really have any issue with any of your points. I didn't mean to characterize UQ as second tier, but rather to call a spade a spade and acknowledge many students' true reason for pursing the degree. But to your point, I have some friends here who are actually very well educated (one of them went to the "Harvard of the west,") but decided to come to UQ because they didn't want to split up for med school. Everyone attending UQO hopes that attitude will become the norm, but I understand why people considering UQ might still be a bit skeptical. I know I was.

The funny thing about the proposed UQ "MD" degree is that as nybgrus and Pholoston have emphasized, it's actually just an entirely semantic change. UQ is changing the program from a level 7 Bachelors to a level 9 Masters. Certain level 9 masters programs can apply to use the term "doctor," so UQ is planning to use Doctor of Medicine, MD. It is literally just a surface level change. For that matter, the "MD" in the United States is also a surface-level degree inflation: it is, to my knowledge, the only non-research professional degree in the United States that receives the "Doctor" title. This is exactly why MBBS is equivalent to MD in the US. In the US, graduates of physician training programs should never have been called MD, unless they did research as a part of the program. My point in my post is the fact that the MD/MBBS distinction is surface level doesn't change my opinion that people are surface level, and I can imagine the MBBS thing coming up at some point in the future. Probably not even in our professional future: I'm imaging being at a thanksgiving gathering and some drunk uncle who is feeling inadequate berating me about the degree. But when was the last time you took anything that uncle says to heart, anyway?

I've never had your experience with the twosies. I actually think that the people who don't like to be challenged is degree holding Americans who resent that someone five years younger than them somehow understands medical science comparably with them. But that's just speculation, honestly I've had only good experiences with twosies, and that has been more-or-less the consensus among my friends here, but individual experiences may vary.

I developed my opinion about anatomy from talking to several doctors, one of whom was a proctor during anatomy pracs, another was a lecturer at UCSF. It's just a tertiary opinion to support my assertion that people over-emphasize the importance of a year 1 wet lab. You're probably right that UQ's reasons are not so beneficent.

As for my comments about USMLE, I completely agree with you that the phenomenon of how one studies for the test -- individually -- is universal. I was trying to emphasize that the main problem at UQO is that the uncertainty about the USMLE leads to navel gazing and endless banter here. I imagine med students are equally argumentative in the United States, if not about USMLE, then surely other things. That being said, US schools do cover biochem and microbio as it pertains to the USMLE. We don't. That's gotta count for something. But I generally have the opinion "just get over it." Anywhere you go there are certain types of inconveniences you have to just deal with; you rarely get to have your cake and eat it, too.

You might just run into Mal Parker if you head over to the Burrow...
 
...
 
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It's incredibly worrying if you guys weren't able to draw any parallels between the experience of a marginalized population in Australia and the marginalized populations you'll eventually serve in the US.

Thought I'd repost here as this seems to be where the childish bickering ... um, I mean discussion, is.

kjr, I don't know a single person who didn't immediately draw a parallel between Aboriginal Australian issues and American Indian issues. And everyone seems genuinely concerned about it; that's what I was trying to imply when I wrote that the class was somewhat interesting and its subject matter was important for us to appreciate as guests in the country. My friends and I more-or-less enjoyed writing our responses to our weekly discussion questions for the Indigenous Health class, it was a nice change of pace from medical science. But I don't think it makes you a bad person if you thought the whole thing was tedious.

There is a big difference between one's sympathy for those those causes and one's enjoyment of a course about them that tests your empathy with an arbitrary multiple choice exam and has the potential to derail your medical studies. When you have four final exams back-to-back, it feels really tedious memorizing stuff for the Indigenous Health class at the expense of spending the time doing a bit more MEDI cramming. Maybe in an ideal world everyone would jump at the opportunity to take another exam, I'm just not one of those people. Also, a lot of Ochsner students already studied social sciences during undergrad, so even though we think many social justice issues are important and central to our drive to become physicians, we aren't very eager to get tested on them again.

As a final note on that class, the Americans definitely seemed to take it more seriously than the some of the Australians, who treated the presentations for the midterm project as an opportunity to practice their standup comedy skills. I attribute that more to age and maturity than a deep ignorance about the issues, but you can rest assured that everyone saw the parallels.

As for childish bickering, I think it's just that we all get really heated about med school stuff! Everyone who writes on this board has worked really hard to do the best they could do while studying at UQ, and they want to make sure the environment where they put in that effort is characterized appropriately. I get the impression that everyone tries their best to be civil, but sometimes that isn't enough to send the right impression. In my opinion, belittling someone's opinion as "childish bickering" only ads fuel to the fire.

Besides:
 
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Hey nybgrus,

Did we meet in person in New Orleans? You'll have to excuse me for my horrible memory... Glad to hear you're doing well at UQ! Thanks for your kind words about me. I'm Taiwanese though, and I'm currently in the US on a working visa. And for current UQ students aiming to excel on the USMLE, I would actually recommend them to read Phloston's preparation. It's more up to date with more current information about the exam. I wrote maybe like 2 posts about my exam preparation and experience; Phloston wrote a book. :wideyed:

Hi Pollux,

Yes we did meet when I did a tour of the place before starting at UQ and have heard about you since then from the class ahead of me whom you tutored a few times in the USMLE. My apologies - I didn't realize you weren't American. I suppose I just assumed that since I knew you were part of the traditional program and had come to the states for residency.

I agree that Phloston put together an epic anthem of angst and success that, if it doesn't scare you witless, will serve as an excellent platform to propel yourself to an excellent Step score.

Best wishes!
 
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kjr, I don't know a single person who didn't immediately draw a parallel between Aboriginal Australian issues and American Indian issues. And everyone seems genuinely concerned about it; that's what I was trying to imply when I wrote that the class was somewhat interesting and its subject matter was important for us to appreciate as guests in the country. My friends and I more-or-less enjoyed writing our responses to our weekly discussion questions for the Indigenous Health class, it was a nice change of pace from medical science. But I don't think it makes you a bad person if you thought the whole thing was tedious.

There is a big difference between one's sympathy for those those causes and one's enjoyment of a course about them that tests your empathy with an arbitrary multiple choice exam and has the potential to derail your medical studies. When you have four final exams back-to-back, it feels really tedious memorizing stuff for the Indigenous Health class at the expense of spending the time doing a bit more MEDI cramming. Maybe in an ideal world everyone would jump at the opportunity to take another exam, I'm just not one of those people. Also, a lot of Ochsner students already studied social sciences during undergrad, so even though we think many social justice issues are important and central to our drive to become physicians, we aren't very eager to get tested on them again.

As a final note on that class, the Americans definitely seemed to take it more seriously than the some of the Australians, who treated the presentations for the midterm project as an opportunity to practice their standup comedy skills. I attribute that more to age and maturity than a deep ignorance about the issues, but you can rest assured that everyone saw the parallels.

As for childish bickering, I think it's just that we all get really heated about med school stuff! Everyone who writes on this board has worked really hard to do the best they could do while studying at UQ, and they want to make sure the environment where they put in that effort is characterized appropriately. I get the impression that everyone tries their best to be civil, but sometimes that isn't enough. In the words of Sean Connery's character in The Rock, "losers always whine about their 'best', winners go home and..." I'll let you fill in the rest. In my opinion, belittling someone's opinion as "childish bickering" only ads fuel to the fire. Besides: http://xkcd.com/386/

LOL. Indeed. My fiance has sent me that XKCD on more than one occasion....
 
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For those currently at UQ: how would you compare the UQ-O program to a DO school in regard to residency placement (i.e. if two individuals have similar board scores, do DO's have an advantage over a UQ-O graduate simply because they graduated from an American school)?
 
It's incredibly worrying if you guys weren't able to draw any parallels between the experience of a marginalized population in Australia and the marginalized populations you'll eventually serve in the US.

Thought I'd repost here as this seems to be where the childish bickering ... um, I mean discussion, is.

...And then proceed to do exactly what your friend nybangbros is doing...
 
For those currently at UQ: how would you compare the UQ-O program to a DO school in regard to residency placement (i.e. if two individuals have similar board scores, do DO's have an advantage over a UQ-O graduate simply because they graduated from an American school)?

There is no data to answer that question. DO's have an advantage because they graduated in the states and a disadvantage because they are DO's. UQ-O has a disadvantage because we graduate as IMGs and an advantage because we do all our clinical work at Ochsner and have a significantly better reputation and program than the Carib or Eastern European schools. Where does the sum total lay? Nobody can really answer that and it will vary from program to program. Some programs are very anti-DO, some are very anti-IMG. Some don't care about either. Some don't like either.
 
...And then proceed to do exactly what your friend nybangbros is doing...
I'm almost tempted to be offended by the pornographic bastardization of my 'nym. Particularly since I bring data and you bring uninformed whinging. I'm all about freedom of speech - regardless of the content, since most intelligent people will be able to see straight through your posts as nothing more than dissatisfied complaints rather than anything useful or meaningful. I also have no idea who KJR is. But I'm sure everything seems like a conspiracy to you.

In any event, I'll politely ask you refrain from referring to me in such a manner. I find your misogyny in other posts on SDN to be rather repugnant and I don't want it being brought over here, especially as a not-so-sly ad hominem portmanteau of my 'nym.
 
his complaints actually make me more confident I will like the program. He sounds like someone from that culture in physical chemistry where the learning isn't 'real' unless everyone is confused and has to do a ton of unnecessary work. God forbid the students get some guidance, crunch numbers at some thermo problems and be done with it.
 
I'm almost tempted to be offended by the pornographic bastardization of my 'nym. Particularly since I bring data and you bring uninformed whinging. I'm all about freedom of speech - regardless of the content, since most intelligent people will be able to see straight through your posts as nothing more than dissatisfied complaints rather than anything useful or meaningful. I also have no idea who KJR is. But I'm sure everything seems like a conspiracy to you.

In any event, I'll politely ask you refrain from referring to me in such a manner. I find your misogyny in other posts on SDN to be rather repugnant and I don't want it being brought over here, especially as a not-so-sly ad hominem portmanteau of my 'nym.

I thought that' what your name stood for...and misogyny? I'm telling the females to have sex with as many guys and be ambitious in life as they want because I think relationships and marriage are a scam. It's all the other males on there who think a woman needs to be in the kitchen all day and never have kissed a man before in their life to be a suitable mate. But I'm not surprised you managed to misinterpret that as well.

I don't think I need to provide evidenced based medicine to support my opinions about the school. That's why they are opinions. And anyone who goes on to attend UQ will form their own views on the institution.
 
his complaints actually make me more confident I will like the program. He sounds like someone from that culture in physical chemistry where the learning isn't 'real' unless everyone is confused and has to do a ton of unnecessary work. God forbid the students get some guidance, crunch numbers at some thermo problems and be done with it.
Best of luck.
 
Ok I don't need to know how the universe started to treat kidney disease and be a good doctor

If you want minimalist education you'll love UQ. Anyways, you'll see yourself and form your opinions. I was only giving my own experience. I do hope you enjoy the program and make the most of it.
 
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The 'childish bickering' comment wasn't directed at you.

It's still disturbing that you don't see social determinants of health as part of your medical education; instead, it's just a distraction from the 'real' hard science stuff. I mean, you've already checked the box of humanitarian undergrad who took a lower division anthropology course, so why should you be so cruelly forced to go beyond that? It's not like there's any more to know.

I wouldn't so easily let your Australian classmates off the hook for their 'immaturity' - that country has a long history of deeply rooted and publicly acceptable racism.

I think most people in the class believe its a distraction from the "medicine", it makes sense because only a small portion of the doctors actually become public health doctors or humanitarian doctors. I think the issue people have with it is that the information is tested in a ridiculous way. Often they will ask you to recite the "common sense model of patient care". It says common sense, but they make it into this ridiculous flow chart and force you to memorize it word for word. Most of us will never need to know the "common sense model of patient care" line by line. Its often ridiculous common sense like: patient hears bad news, patient tries to cope, patient tries to fix, patient fails and retries or patient maintains pattern except in ridiculous jargon.

On the exam, this sort of stuff is given the same amount of attention as Cardiovascular health and these ridiculous questions can be worth a huge number of points. I'd much rather memorize Virchow's triad over the Common Sense model anyday. I mean there are MPH degrees for a reason.

I think its worth giving a taster in medical school to public health. However, i don't agree it should be marked and certainly not worth 10-15% of your final exam. Especially when that same medical school fails to teach the urea cycle.
 
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Yikes. If you're treating or preventing illness you're a public health doctor. If you're relieving suffering you're a humanitarian doctor. I'd hope everyone is planning on falling into one of those two camps, if not both.
You know what i mean, every doctor does a bit of public health and is a humanitarian. When i mean public health i mean working for the NHS and doing epi and stats without interaction with patients and with humanitarian i mean going to 3rd world countries and warzones and helping over there.
 
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I remember the frustration of cramming for those public health and ethics questions... They are not hard, just time consuming, especially when you just want to focus on relevant stuff that overlaps with USMLE material. But most of these questions were directly from past exams.

I would recommend devoting most of your effort to USMLE preparation (this will be more than sufficient to cover the biomedical side of UQ learning objectives), but make sure you look at the past exams for these ethics and public health questions. Seriously, when you apply for US residency positions, the preclinical grades almost don't matter at all. US program directors have no idea how to interpret UQ's grading scheme; all they care is the USMLE score (and recommendation letters, etc). Just make sure you do well enough to pass overall.
 
I remember the frustration of cramming for those public health and ethics questions... They are not hard, just time consuming, especially when you just want to focus on relevant stuff that overlaps with USMLE material. But most of these questions were directly from past exams.

I would recommend devoting most of your effort to USMLE preparation (this will be more than sufficient to cover the biomedical side of UQ learning objectives), but make sure you look at the past exams for these ethics and public health questions. Seriously, when you apply for US residency positions, the preclinical grades almost don't matter at all. US program directors have no idea how to interpret UQ's grading scheme; all they care is the USMLE score (and recommendation letters, etc). Just make sure you do well enough to pass overall.

Given that Step1 overrides pre-clinicals, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts as far as 2CK supplanting clinical rotation grades, given that you've already been through the process.

I come out of the PhD into third-year med in January. I'd be more than happy to take 5s and just focus hardcore on 2CK prep.
 
Given that Step1 overrides pre-clinicals, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts as far as 2CK supplanting clinical rotation grades, given that you've already been through the process.

I come out of the PhD into third-year med in January. I'd be more than happy to take 5s and just focus hardcore on 2CK prep.

My impression is that 2CK also supplants clinical clerkship grades for IMGs in general, especially for a grading scheme as confusing as UQ's. I got 7s in the first two years and only 5s and 6s in the clinical years. Not a single PD/interviewer asked me about my UQ grades on the interview day. Then again, perhaps it's because I was applying to pathology, so they couldn't care less about my clinical clerkship performance. :p

And funny enough, some PD/interviewers mentioned my step 1 score during the interview. I don't think any of them actually commented on my Step 2 CK score. Maybe that's just pathology again.
 
Again, it's kind of scary that you seem to think epidemiology and statistics are somehow only marginally related to clinical practice and not all that important - you know, leave it to those MPH nerds, it's not like we need to figure out ways to practically implement that stuff. Also troubling is that you can't seem to find relevant parallels between patients in "third world" war zones and the patients you'll see in parts of the US. There are zip codes in New Orleans that have lower life expectancies than the D.R. Congo, for many of the same reasons - violence, lack of access to clean water, food, education, medical care, etc.

I am really enjoying the irony of you mentioning Virchow in the same breath as your desire to limit your exposure to public health in medical school.

Ok you got me, turns out this guy was a public health "pioneer". Still don't see how memorizing things like the "common sense model" is going to help me in the real world.
 
Let's just say that neither of you are doing yourselves any favours.

And neither are you. A guy makes a point about the course in Aboriginal studies not being as relevant to medical school as, say, perhaps, an actual course in biomedical sciences, and you proceed to give him a lecture on the Aboriginal culture and population health. No wonder you and ny get along so well.
 
I thought that' what your name stood for...and misogyny? I'm telling the females to have sex with as many guys and be ambitious in life as they want because I think relationships and marriage are a scam. It's all the other males on there who think a woman needs to be in the kitchen all day and never have kissed a man before in their life to be a suitable mate. But I'm not surprised you managed to misinterpret that as well.

I don't think I need to provide evidenced based medicine to support my opinions about the school. That's why they are opinions. And anyone who goes on to attend UQ will form their own views on the institution.

Then you stand corrected on my 'nym.

As for the misogyny, that is hardly all you have to offer up. But anybody curious can just look through your comment history to see that.

And no, you don't need evidence to support your opinions. But you do to support the facts that you are throwing out to support your opinions and make claims. Facts which are false and the data clearly does not support. Which I have demonstrated amply. Stick to opinions and I'll just disagree and offer other opinions. Delve into facts and you better have the data to back them up.
 
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For the record, I've never interacted with nybgrus - digitally or otherwise. Based on his internet persona, I actually doubt we'd get along very well.
I'm really not sure where you're coming from with this and why you're so eager to lump me in with him.

Oh ok. Well I actually feel courses like Aboriginal Health, ethics, and population health are very important for medical school in Australia. However, I do not feel that these subjects should be displacing coursework in the biomedical sciences. I think the reality is that UQ simply does not do a good job at teaching anything (besides physiology and pathology) and even if the VOPPs are useful, it has nothing to do with the school itself and everything to do with the individual instructors.
 
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Not sure where you went to undergrad, but in my higher ed experience poor instruction has been the rule. It's not that surprising, really, when most profs are evaluated on their research and teaching is kind of an afterthought. Not how it should be, but as an independent kid who always read a lot, I just kind of rolled with it.

Well I was in math and physics so there were small courses with good interaction but I was under the impression medical school/professional school would be different from the undergraduate level. Especially when our future decision making can be the difference between life and death of another.

I've just found that UQ is particularly egregious when it comes to pumping students for as much free labour as can be extracted while putting in the least amount of effort possible on the other end.
 
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It is too bad you haven't found a higher standard in graduate school, but, again, those profs weren't hired to teach. It's the same flawed model.
Regarding decision making, from everyone I've talked to - you learn how to practice medicine in residency. So get the basics down in medical school, but don't fret if you're not fully formed. Find a couple good mentors in your residency program and off you go.

Yeah, it's also a bit of hit-and-miss situation in years 3 and 4 with preceptors...hoping that by going rural I will get better and more dedicated mentors as a whole
 
The 'childish bickering' comment wasn't directed at you.

It's still disturbing that you don't see social determinants of health as part of your medical education; instead, it's just a distraction from the 'real' hard science stuff. I mean, you've already checked the box of humanitarian undergrad who took a lower division anthropology course, so why should you be so cruelly forced to go beyond that? It's not like there's any more to know.

I wouldn't so easily let your Australian classmates off the hook for their 'immaturity' - that country has a long history of deeply rooted and publicly acceptable racism.

Thanks for the thoughts on medical schools' responsibility to train well-rounded physicians, kjr. I agree with your general sentiment, but the truth is that I'm just posting on here because I'm trying to give potential colleagues at UQ a realistic sense of what it's like to study at UQ -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. I'm perfectly happy to talk about whether or not it is "disturbing" if certain students have a sour taste for a particular class, but I'd prefer to have that aspect of the conversation over PMs, because I don't think our dialogue on the subject is particularly informative for future students, and probably serves as a distraction to those sifting through the posts on this forum for the first time.

As for "checking the box" of humanitarian undergrad, there isn't really a difference between a lower div anthro course and this Indigenous Health course. They are both intended for people who have never been exposed to the subject, so if you have already studied it, it feels a bit redundant to study it again, and either way, it's a lower div course. That's really all I'm saying in my original critique of the class. I have a degree in Public Health, so perhaps I take the novelty of concepts like the "social determinants of health" and "social determinism" for granted, but I really don't think that degree or the coursework I did for it endows me with some extrasensory appreciation for issues related to social justice in medicine that someone without the degree couldn't grasp.

Of course, some other public health concepts, such as biostats and epi, are usually best learned in a formal course. At UQ biostats are taught to medical students with cursory zeal, and from what I've heard, that tends to be the norm in medical school. Your assertion that biostats and epi are central to clinical practice is a Paul Farmery ideal that many progressive medical students here share, but I don't think it reflects poorly on UQ or its students that others don't agree, given how common it is for US med schools to eschew those courses as well. I mean, in a world where William Halsted (a surgeon who famously relinquished evidence-based research and pioneered techniques that, in my opinion, were responsible for the unnecessary disfigurement of well over half-a-million women) is still a hero of modern medicine, you gotta work within the system where not everyone agrees that doctors need to know biostats.

I do think I see where you are coming from: it IS disturbing that allopathic medicine has gone for so long without incorporating those basic concepts of health and wellness into its educational paradigm. But you know that expression "if you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail"? I think there is a bit of a tendency for people with my background in the social sciences to over-emphasize the importance of studying subjects in our field of expertise as part of the core medical education. You don't need a degree in Public Health to be an excellent, caring doctor for people from many socio-economic contexts, and who internalizes many of the corse principles that courses like our Indigenous Health course teach. I never said the ideas behind the Indigenous course were bad; on the contrary, I explicitly noted that I felt we had an obligation to understand them. Yet how one goes about learning them depends on your background. Echoing qldman's sentiment, for 19 year old Australians learning about class disparity and the struggles caused by institutionalized racism for the first time, this class is perfect. But my post was not addressing them. The intended audience was Americans who might have already taken courses like that, and I wanted to give them a fair warning.

To your point about letting my Australian colleagues off the hook too easily, I am really glad that classes like this exist to help undo some of the systemic ignorance about racial tolerance. But I am cautious to accuse these students of necessarily harboring any deep intolerance towards people who are different from themselves. It's common to try and deal with issues that make us uncomfortable by making light of the situation. That coping device is immature, but it isn't hateful. Clearly, learning how to deal with serious things is a process that we all need to develop during our medical education (officially it is part of the Year 2 Clinical Coaching curriculum), but it's a bit unfair to write these students off just because they haven't developed it yet or didn't have the progressive education that I had earlier in life to teach me how to be respectful.
 
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There is no data to answer that question. DO's have an advantage because they graduated in the states and a disadvantage because they are DO's. UQ-O has a disadvantage because we graduate as IMGs and an advantage because we do all our clinical work at Ochsner and have a significantly better reputation and program than the Carib or Eastern European schools. Where does the sum total lay? Nobody can really answer that and it will vary from program to program. Some programs are very anti-DO, some are very anti-IMG. Some don't care about either. Some don't like either.

I actually held off on answering this question because I thought that nybgrus might have more to say than me on the topic, but to address the original question about residency placement from UQ vs from a DO, I just want to make a couple terse points.

UQ Ochsner is very proud that it matched 100% of its first graduating class last year. You can read about it here: http://www.uq.edu.au/news/?article=26053 . I don't think we can always expect such a great result, but it's worth mentioning in any conversation about residency matching. It's also worth noting that American FMGs and DOs make up roughly the same percentage of the final NRMP pool. However, that doesn't speak to how many students from each group applied, so it isn't particularly useful.

It is useful to acknowledge that the DO degree is a fundamentally different degree from the MBBS/MD. They also have their own Osteopathic residency match that graduates can participate in in addition to the NRMP match. Most DO programs require hundreds of hours of studying Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine. Some people enroll in DO schools specifically for this purpose (I am good friends with an Osteopath and she loves this stuff, and KNOWS her anatomy!). Other DO students see it as rather tedious. Perhaps its analogous to my commentary about non-med classes at UQ: a bit of extra work that is either important/interesting or busy work, depending on how you look at it, but ultimately a necessary cost to getting into the medical profession.
 
I've just found that UQ is particularly egregious when it comes to pumping students for as much free labour as can be extracted while putting in the least amount of effort possible on the other end.
There is no free labor -- it actually costs hospitals (and thus UQ) to clinically train the students.
 
I actually held off on answering this question because I thought that nybgrus might have more to say than me on the topic, but to address the original question about residency placement from UQ vs from a DO, I just want to make a couple terse points.

UQ Ochsner is very proud that it matched 100% of its first graduating class last year. You can read about it here: http://www.uq.edu.au/news/?article=26053 . I don't think we can always expect such a great result, but it's worth mentioning in any conversation about residency matching. It's also worth noting that American FMGs and DOs make up roughly the same percentage of the final NRMP pool. However, that doesn't speak to how many students from each group applied, so it isn't particularly useful.

It is useful to acknowledge that the DO degree is a fundamentally different degree from the MBBS/MD. They also have their own Osteopathic residency match that graduates can participate in in addition to the NRMP match. Most DO programs require hundreds of hours of studying Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine. Some people enroll in DO schools specifically for this purpose (I am good friends with an Osteopath and she loves this stuff, and KNOWS her anatomy!). Other DO students see it as rather tedious. Perhaps its analogous to my commentary about non-med classes at UQ: a bit of extra work that is either important/interesting or busy work, depending on how you look at it, but ultimately a necessary cost to getting into the medical profession.

Yes, they are proud of the 100% match rate. I don't think it is unreasonable to be happy, but particularly MedEdPath overplays the meaning of the results. As I have cautioned from long before the first class even matched, it is a joyous occasion... that doesn't really tell us anything. The N is too small and half matched to Ochsner. Granted I know that 3 of them actually looked to Ochsner as a first choice (and truth be told I may well be matching at Ochsner myself, because of other considerations I am taking into account), but the point stands that no real data can be drawn from a single sampling of only 9 individuals. I've further been trying to urge caution in interpretation because we as humans tend to focus on the edges of a bell curve too much. If a couple from my class don't match, that also doesn't tell us much. Quite frankly there are a couple in my class whom I would not be at all surprised if they didn't match and it would have absolutely nothing to do with the program.

And, as I've always said, we will always achieve a 100% match rate if people are brutally honest with their self assessment of how competitive they are and are willing to apply to and go to any program instead of focusing on very desirable programs/locations. In other words, people who failed the Step 1 the first time and only apply to ophthal programs are going to be unhappy individuals. If those same people apply to family medicine in Podunk, Alabama they will match (though their happiness will be indeterminate without actually speaking to them). So one can see how matching is actually a surrogate marker of what people really want to know - how will I fare in the match, assuming I do well and apply to the field and location of my choice? It is a good surrogate marker, don't get me wrong, but still within limitations. That is why a few unmatched students don't really tell you much and a 100% match of a small batch of students doesn't tell you much either. What will give you information is a large sample size which allows for a wide variety of matches. You'll want to see something like a minimum 80-85% match rate overall (obviously here, the higher the better, but 95% is realistically where I would predict the program would be in order to call it "very good"), with students matching all over the country, in a wide variety of specialties (including a small percentage of the tougher ones), and at a wide variety of programs (including the tougher ones). If, after 100+ students go through we find a higher unmatched rate, with an obviously skewed distribution of matches, that will give rise to some reasonable concern. But looking at 9 (or even after my class 39ish) data points across two match seasons and trying to claim it can actually inform any sort of data driven rational decision is, well, a symptom of why stats is so important to understand ;-)

As for the DO degree distinction... that is a whole different topic, but suffice it to say in most cases it is almost identical. The manipulations aspect of osteopathy is the last remaining vestige of the rank quackery upon which the field was founded. In most of the world - Australia included - osteopaths are still rank quacks, right up there with homeopaths, naturopaths, chiropractors, acupuncturists, etc. In the US the field became decidedly more science based which is why they have been welcomed into the ranks of legitimate medical professionals and can participate in ACGME (not just AOA) residencies (and most of them do). I am sure that there is variation in how much time is spent in each school on OM, but it is, for the most part, pretty minimal (and actually some of it has an evidence base along the lines of physiotherapists). If chiropractors actually made the same move - towards a scientific basis for practice - they could have had an analogous relationship to physiotherapists (many of whom receive doctorate level education as DPTs). But, they like their quackery too much.

And of course, the general disdain for DO's is almost entirely cultural rather than rational and scientific (same as the disdain for IMGs). And for DO's it is very regional as well - the East Coast has many more DO's and people are pretty used to it and there is less discrimination based on that, the West Coast not so much. Which is why I say that the question is not really answerable since the basis for the discrimination is not scientific or rational but purely cultural. So it all depends on where that culture is present and strong, which can (and does) change and is hard to quantify.

As for the whole Aboriginal/social determinants of health... yeah, I think GreenMachine is pretty well spot on. I wholeheartedly agree that such knowledge is the only way to truly excel at being a physician - you need to have that at the forefront of your mind as your practice in order to consistently apply it. But it is practically unnecessary from a functional sense. You can still function as a good doctor (but not a great one, for a qualitative description to illustrate the point) without considering these things. That is simply because a purely bioscientific approach is sufficient enough in a system with such demand that one doesn't need to hone that edge to such a fine point to function well within the system. That does not mean it is the best way to function, merely good enough given the practical realities of the system and delivery of healthcare. I also agree that UQ teaches these points at an extremely basic level and often rather poorly, making it difficult for most people to engage with the ideas and really take them home. I found the Life Course project to be incredibly onerous, yet I frequently discuss and write about topics that are exactly relevant to the principles they attempted to teach with that assignment. But of course, considering that everyone has different background with different proclivities it is necessarily impossible to design a course that will perfectly appeal to everyone. In areas like this, I would argue that it is even more difficult and I would agree that UQ is probably at or below par on that one (though "par" is hard to define, hence my hedge).
 
There is no free labor -- it actually costs hospitals (and thus UQ) to clinically train the students.

I was referring more to aspects of the program like Teamwork in Action, Scholarship of Research, Honours, Rural Rotation/Medicine in Society, etc. where UQ just tries to steal the intellectual property of students and force students into pointless endeavors to build up the UQ brand
 
Can anyone give me an idea of what mcat/gpa gets you into uq-ochsner?

I have had a couple interviews at DO schools I would rather not go to. But I will drop the $2000 deposit if they call me. I'm trying to figure out WAMC at UQ-Ochsner for January 2015 so I can save my cash if the odds are good.

I'm a 26 yom
-30 MCAT
-3.2 CGPA/SGPA (4.0 in last 120 credits)
-Non traditional. Working full time throughout college
-3 years volunteer EMTB
-6 years professional paramedic/firefighter
-international travel and volunteerism experience
-adjunct faculty at cc paramedic program
-fluent in Spanish (not urm)
-excellent lors from profs and md

There is no data out there on what a competitive candidate looks like. Am I competitive?
 
Can anyone give me an idea of what mcat/gpa gets you into uq-ochsner?

I have had a couple interviews at DO schools I would rather not go to. But I will drop the $2000 deposit if they call me. I'm trying to figure out WAMC at UQ-Ochsner for January 2015 so I can save my cash if the odds are good.

I'm a 26 yom
-30 MCAT
-3.2 CGPA/SGPA (4.0 in last 120 credits)
-Non traditional. Working full time throughout college
-3 years volunteer EMTB
-6 years professional paramedic/firefighter
-international travel and volunteerism experience
-adjunct faculty at cc paramedic program
-fluent in Spanish (not urm)
-excellent lors from profs and md

There is no data out there on what a competitive candidate looks like. Am I competitive?
I'm pretty sure you are, average accepted MCAT was 28 i believe.
 
I overstated something

My last 120 credits have been with a gpa of about 3.75-3.8

I have A's in o-chem 1/2, phys 1/2, chem 1/2
B's in micro, and anatomy 1/2

All these sciences were taken at CC, I'm on a budget and did an AA degree before transferring into my flagship state school to finish a BS (graduating in May)

I would love to go to Australia for med school. It sounds like a great experience and after march I will be able to see where about 30 more grads get matched. I want to go into emergency medicine which is moderately competitive, but if Ross and sgu grads do it all the time I see no reason why uq grads would have trouble.

I would love to hear people's thoughts. Thanks
 
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