UQ-Ochsner 2016

[crunkosaurus rex]

has anyone who interviewed 8/6 or 8/7 heard back yet?

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[deleted158872]

A president is not able to make that much difference because there are resistence from the other parties and from the congress, and also from many influencial sectors in the society who treat education as a commercial endeavor.

I know a president alone isn't enough. We need to elect like-minded people into Congress, too.

 

[nybgrus]

I ran into a group of y'all interviewing earlier this week. Maybe some of you are on here. Best of luck!

 

[mcat_taker]

I ran into a group of y'all interviewing earlier this week. Maybe some of you are on here. Best of luck!

@nybgrus were you around on the 9/25 interview day?

 

[nybgrus]

@nybgrus were you around on the 9/25 interview day?

I was working that day so yeah, I was around the hospital. I ran into a group of interviewees as we all got an an elevator. I joked that residency interviews always look like funerals and was corrected that it was the UQ-O interviews.

 

[pitman]

Did you pull a Dr. Cox "pep" speech on their a$$es?

 

[nybgrus]

Did you pull a Dr. Cox "pep" speech on their a$$es?

LOL. No, but I'll keep it in mind for the future. I ran into them as we were getting on the elevator and found out they weren't residency interviewing just before they got off the elevator.

 

[deleted718115]

How many of UQ-O's reported residency matches are pre-match or post-match offers?

 

[nybgrus]

How many of UQ-O's reported residency matches are pre-match or post-match offers?

By NRMP rules no program that participates in the Match may offer positions outside the match.

 

[deleted718115]

ok ^^

 

[pre med 2014]

does anyone know:
- the passing grade for each class at UQ?
- whether exams are multiple-choice or short-answer or essays?
- whether they dismiss you for failing a class?

1) usually around 55% is the pass mark for most exams.
2) mid semester examinations are multiple choice and end of semester exams are a combination of multiple choice and short answer. There is also an anatomy spotter exam and path/histo image exam at the end of each semester that you do not have during midsems.
3) if you fail a class, you will most likely be awarded a supplementary exam. This is where you have 2 weeks to study the entire semesters material again. If you fail that one then you have to redo the semester.

 

[mcat_taker]

Has anyone followed up with MededPath recently to see if additional spots were going to open up for those who interviewed in september. Not sure why they interviewed us september peeps since the class seems full.

 

[deleted718115]

...

 

[deleted718115]

btw, the Queensland program is MD (graduate level) now and MBBS (undergraduate) is being phased out for students with undergraduate degree esp from North America.

What are the changes now that the program is MD?

 

[nybgrus]

What are the changes now that the program is MD?

Someone else will likely be better to answer your actual question, but I'd like to point out that the MBBS being "undergraduate" was literally just a bureaucratic holdover from before. Quite literally the only thing that was "undergraduate" about it was the fact that it was labeled undergrad. This was because of some weird (to me anyway) bureaucratic thing because of the way that the university is organized. The one thing it did lead to that was somewhat annoying was a single project that was required by the school of health sciences for all "undergraduates" and hence us. The project itself wasn't that bad (though it did involve silly things like drawing pictures and sharing in circles) but the fact that your team mates for the project were all literally first year undergrads with barely any of them even 18 years old. There was this group exercise where you were stranded on a raft in the middle of an ocean with a limited set of items you could salvage from your sinking boat and you had to work together to decide what to save and how to use it. It just so happened that the 17 year olds I was with had no idea about how to survive in such a situation and so they picked stuff like shark repellent and an AM/FM radio (i.e. can receive but not transmit) and food, but decided to leave water, a tarp, and a mirror. I then pointed out that you will die in a day or two without water, sooner if you don't have a tarp to keep the sun off of you, and that a mirror is better for signaling help than an AM/FM radio. In my assessment I was dinged for being "overbearing" and "coming up with all the ideas" rather than being a team. Ha! I wanted to survive on that raft, not have a ******* democracy of death (like my alliteration there?). We also had to sell candy to raise money for a charity which was a bit silly as well. But I went through the motions and everything was just fine. Other than that you'd never know you were an "undergrad."

As for specifically the MD program, the only thing I know of off the top of my head is that there will be more required research. For the Aussies the MBBS is more like our MD and their MD (which the country has had for quite some time, it isn't a brand new degree they've never used before) is more like our PhD. It is not the same as a combined MD/Phd or MBBS/PhD though.

Hopefully someone else can fill in more details about it as I am curious myself.

 

[deleted718115]

Someone else will likely be better to answer your actual question, but I'd like to point out that the MBBS being "undergraduate" was literally just a bureaucratic holdover from before. Quite literally the only thing that was "undergraduate" about it was the fact that it was labeled undergrad. This was because of some weird (to me anyway) bureaucratic thing because of the way that the university is organized. The one thing it did lead to that was somewhat annoying was a single project that was required by the school of health sciences for all "undergraduates" and hence us. The project itself wasn't that bad (though it did involve silly things like drawing pictures and sharing in circles) but the fact that your team mates for the project were all literally first year undergrads with barely any of them even 18 years old. There was this group exercise where you were stranded on a raft in the middle of an ocean with a limited set of items you could salvage from your sinking boat and you had to work together to decide what to save and how to use it. It just so happened that the 17 year olds I was with had no idea about how to survive in such a situation and so they picked stuff like shark repellent and an AM/FM radio (i.e. can receive but not transmit) and food, but decided to leave water, a tarp, and a mirror. I then pointed out that you will die in a day or two without water, sooner if you don't have a tarp to keep the sun off of you, and that a mirror is better for signaling help than an AM/FM radio. In my assessment I was dinged for being "overbearing" and "coming up with all the ideas" rather than being a team. Ha! I wanted to survive on that raft, not have a ******* democracy of death (like my alliteration there?). We also had to sell candy to raise money for a charity which was a bit silly as well. But I went through the motions and everything was just fine. Other than that you'd never know you were an "undergrad."

As for specifically the MD program, the only thing I know of off the top of my head is that there will be more required research. For the Aussies the MBBS is more like our MD and their MD (which the country has had for quite some time, it isn't a brand new degree they've never used before) is more like our PhD. It is not the same as a combined MD/Phd or MBBS/PhD though.

Hopefully someone else can fill in more details about it as I am curious myself.

Lol, man, hopefully they won't make med students do those silly activities anymore.

Can someone chimr in on the research? Lab work, write papers, etc.???

 

[deleted718115]

When do students in the Ochner cohort usually take Step 1?

 

[RahX]

When do students in the Ochner cohort usually take Step 1?

Most does it during the time off between 2nd and 3rd year, so between mid nov and beginning of jan

 

[nybgrus]

Most does it during the time off between 2nd and 3rd year, so between mid nov and beginning of jan

I cannot possibly begin to stress this enough. And I know that a large minority will continue to ignore my advice (which is the same echoed by just about everyone whose opinion should matter on this topic):

TAKE YOUR STEP 1 BETWEEN M2 and M3 YEAR!!!!!!

This is when most students take it. A large minority of students don't do it every year for some reason or another. The vast majority of that group do not have a legitimate reason for delay. Delaying taking the Step 1 will hurt your chances at a residency. Do not count on being the special snowflake that is an exception to this generally very accurate rule of thumb. If you have not prepared well enough in your pre-clinical years, then your boat has sailed and your best course of action is to take it and work harder during clinicals to make up for it. Delay will both make your clinical experience (and thus grades which actually matter somewhat and potential letters of rec) and USMLE score suffer. You simply cannot prepare for the Step during clinicals and expect to pass your courses and actually improve your score. Period. You should enter the program with a 100% certainty you will take the exam during the break between M2 and M3. Only if something truly extraordinary happens (close family dies, severe illness, the President asks you to fly to an asteroid and drill a hole for a nuke into it, etc) should you delay your Step 1.

Any further discussion about timing of the exam is utterly pointless and will only serve to be a demonstration that you do not understand the importance of taking it before M3.

 

[pre med 2014]

OK I wouldn't call 30% of current 3rd years who still haven't taken the exam a "large minority". A large minority is about 10-15%. If 30% still have not taken it, that means more than that started M3 without taking it, maybe 50%?

The program is not set up at all to take the step 1 at the proper time which is why we are seeing such large numbers delaying the exam. We have 1 month between M2 and M3, and in that month we have to make an international move. And we also have the OSCEs at the end of year 2 (Australian version of step 3?? Regardless it's an extensive clinical exam).

None of this is an excuse for delaying the exam as we knew the time frame before entering school, however the 50-70% who are taking it before M3 are much more disciplined than any onshore American student in my opinion. I can't even begin to imagine the luxury of having 2 or 3 months of free time without having to make any move whatsoever let alone move across continents.

So it's dumb to compare an onshore student who took the exam on time with an Ochsner student who delayed. Anybody can take it on time in fairy land where there are no clinical assessments 2nd year, no relocation, quick and easy access to Starbucks and twice the amount of dedicated study time. It's a joke.

 

[nybgrus]

OK I wouldn't call 30% of current 3rd years who still haven't taken the exam a "large minority". A large minority is about 10-15%. If 30% still have not taken it, that means more than that started M3 without taking it, maybe 50%?

First off, you are making a subjective quibble here, not an actual argument. Whether you decide that "large minority" is only defined at up to 15% or not is entirely besides the point. Technically speaking 49% is still a "minority." So if you want to win a rhetorical point for word choice, fine.

Also, you are entirely speculating a number. I don't know how many people still haven't taken it. I don't know how many didn't actually take it at the start of M3 year. That's why I purposefully used a very nebulous term like "large minority" to describe it. But even if it is actually currently 30% saying it must have started at 50% is nothing but rank speculation and pure guesswork. It could have just as easily been 35%. And that's probably more realistic since, from what I do know about it, it is a very distinct and small minority of those who don't take the Step 1 at the beginning of M3 who actually do take it before M3 is done.

Regardless, it is entirely irrelevant to any points I am making and is a complete non-argument.

The program is not set up at all to take the step 1 at the proper time which is why we are seeing such large numbers delaying the exam. We have 1 month between M2 and M3, and in that month we have to make an international move. And we also have the OSCEs at the end of year 2 (Australian version of step 3?? Regardless it's an extensive clinical exam).

The program is not set up at all to take the Step 1. It is an Australian program. The test is called the United States Medical Licensing Exam. That is why OMSA has ongoing efforts and campaigned to get extra resources for UQ-O cohort students in order to prepare them to take the Step 1. That is why I developed that M1 tutorials and successfully lobbied for the M2 tutorials, free QBanks, and other resources.

And that is why every single student going into the program knows this from day 1. Yes, it is difficult to make an international move and take the OSCE's (and not even close to an Australian version of Step 3... you do realize that is taken as an intern, right? It is like a baby version of the Step 2 CK which 97% of people pass on their first try with minimal preparation; most people typically study for a total of 10-15 hours at the most for the CK and the OSCE's are literally 1/3 the length and much easier, so no it is not an "extensive" clinical exam, even though that may be how they make you feel about it. It is very straightforward and you've been preparing for it since the beginning of M1 year) and prepare for an take the Step 1 between M2 and M3 year. That is also why OMSA has a New Orleans guide to give you a solid resource to help with the transition.

You also have much longer than 1 month between M2 and M3 year. This year, for example, you end courses on Nov 13 and begin M3 year on Jan 9. That is 57 days. Last I checked 57 days is rather a bit more than a month. And, with adequate preparation ahead of time for which every UQ-O student has ample access to resources and information, it is very, very doable. Maybe it means you miss out on Thanksgiving. Maybe you even miss Xmas (though that isn't even close to being necessary). I suppose if one Turkey day and Xmas (or Hanukkah, Kwanzaa, Festivus, whatever) is more important to you than your medical career... well, then you'll have many more sore disappointments for the rest of your life and should maybe reconsider your life choices. Nothing wrong with that. In fact honestly quite admirable to recognize. But understand that taking the Step 1 between M2 and M3 year is not an exercise in Shaolin Monk level discipline. It is an exercise in the level of discipline you will need to have for the rest of your career and mostly a level of sacrifice that you will need to have for the rest of your career as well.

None of this is an excuse for delaying the exam as we knew the time frame before entering school, however the 50-70% who are taking it before M3 are much more disciplined than any onshore American student in my opinion. I can't even begin to imagine the luxury of having 2 or 3 months of free time without having to make any move whatsoever let alone move across continents.

So after a purely subjective rhetorical non-argument with rank guesswork, a gross exaggeration of the time constraints and the magnitude of the OSCEs (along with an obviously unresearched, made up comparison to the Step 3 [which, I guess I should add, is also considered to be exceedingly easy and hardly anyone actually studies for it very much with an extremely high pass rate]), you now admit that my point actually does stand in that there is, as I said, very few legitimate reasons for delaying the exam?

Was this response of yours nothing more than a childish whinge fest? I'm having difficulty understanding your actual point, especially given that to make it you have had to resort to subjective interpretation, hyperbolic exaggeration, and outright mis-information.

So it's dumb to compare an onshore student who took the exam on time with an Ochsner student who delayed. Anybody can take it on time in fairy land where there are no clinical assessments 2nd year, no relocation, quick and easy access to Starbucks and twice the amount of dedicated study time. It's a joke.

I agree it is dumb to compare UQ-O to US students. Which is why if you look back at this thread, of the two of us you are the only one making that comparison. Seriously, go back and read my comment carefully. And if you find the section where I even remotely hint at a comparison to US medical students let me know.

I'll also add that US medical students do have assessments at the end of their M2 year. They're called "finals." And many schools even have something similar to the Aussie OSCE's. My best friend had a very similar thing in his Chicago based program. You are right that they don't have to relocate. But last I checked Australia, New Orleans, and pretty much anywhere you may choose to relocate to has easy access to Starbucks. Thankfully they are fairly ubiquitous so you should be able to somehow find a way to learn and practice medicine in most places, since that seems to be a requirement for you. However, they typically get only about 4-6 weeks to take the exam. They have roughly the same time off between M2 and M3 year that you do (that being 57 days, not 1 month), not infrequently a bit more, and they get a little bit of time off at the end of M2 year to study for the exam but they also have a hard and fixed date by which to take the exam which is long before M3 year starts. Don't forget that in the US you have to pass the Step 1 in order to even begin your M3 year. So they want those scores back in time. My same friend actually only had 5 weeks between the end of his M2 year and the date by which he had to take the Step 1.

So is it more onerous to take the Step 1 before M3 year as a UQ-O than it is if you are a traditional US student? Absolutely. Does that matter in terms of what a UQ-O student needs to do in order to have the best chance at successfully matching into his or her specialty of choice? Not one tiny bit. Which is precisely why my comment was focused on that and had absolutely zero reference nor comparison to US students.

Taking the Step 1 before M3 is very, very doable. There are very few legitimate excuses for not doing so. And it absolutely does not require some incredible level of discipline that is unachievable. It just requires some planning ahead of time (which is why OSMA kicks you off right in M1) and an understanding of the timelines and requirements that is actually reflective of reality, not some hyperbolic conception of it. The point of my comment was to stress that the nearly-set-in-stone default assumption should be that UQ-O students take the Step 1 before M3. Period. There is no room to think about taking it at any other time except for actually legitimate cases for delay.

 

[pre med 2014]

You can't take it first two weeks of January because exam centers are closed. It has to be taken before Christmas.

Finals end Nov. 13th and by the time you pack up, get home and readjust to the time zone you're looking at about 4 weeks tops.

I see you tried to muddy the waters a bit but it didn't work. The fact still remains we have a month (you could say 5 weeks technically but I say 4 after factoring in an international move and time zone adjustment) and the fact still remains the majority of all US med schools are all theory first 2 years with no clinical assessments or clinical work.

Not sure how US students having finals is supposed matter since everybody has finals. Two months of May and June or June and July is much much better than one month in between Thanksgiving and Christmas. And it's my understanding many get EVEN MORE than that.

 

[nybgrus]

You can't take it first two weeks of January because exam centers are closed. It has to be taken before Christmas.

Finals end Nov. 13th and by the time you pack up, get home and readjust to the time zone you're looking at about 4 weeks tops.

I see you tried to muddy the waters a bit but it didn't work. The fact still remains we have a month (you could say 5 weeks technically but I say 4 after factoring in an international move and time zone adjustment) and the fact still remains the majority of all US med schools are all theory first 2 years with no clinical assessments or clinical work.

Not sure how US students having finals is supposed matter since everybody has finals. Two months of May and June or June and July is much much better than one month in between Thanksgiving and Christmas. And it's my understanding many get EVEN MORE than that.

Many people stay in Australia and take the exam there before going home because they realize that going home first may not be the best option. If you do leave right away and get settled into the time zone, you still have plenty of time. I went home, relaxed, did all of Thanksgiving, and then started studying Thanksgiving weekend and still have a full 4 weeks to study before the exam and still had time for Xmas and moving to NoLa. The time is ample and yes, admittedly less and more difficult than our US counterparts, but far from the giant and impossible task you are making it out to be.

Once again, you are comparing to US counterparts which you yourself said was dumb. So why do you keep doing that? Our US counterparts are irrelevant. What we need to do is. And what we need to do is not that onerous and is easily accomplished with adequate planning and preparation. It is certainly more difficult than you can expect your intern year and future residency to be. I just had to do a journal club presentation, conference presentation (for which my research won 1st place), finish my article on which I am first author, and prepare for a Halloween weekend with my family in town all while working nights, personally admitting 52 patients in 13 shifts. Having 2 years to anticipate and plan for an exam that is arguably the most important one you will ever take is very manageable.

Also, most US schools actually do have quite a bit of focus on clinical medicine in M1&M2. Not as much as UQ does, no doubt, but it is very wrong to say that the majority are "all theory with no clinical assessments or clinical work." But, comparing us to US schools is dumb, by your own admission, so why not stay on point and address the actual issue at hand?

I'll add that nowhere have you come even remotely close to actually addressing any point I made with my original comment. Do you disagree with my actual point? That regardless of any perceived or real difficulties that every UQ-O should be taking the Step 1 prior to M3, except in very few extreme circumstances? Do you disagree that it is something that is indeed quite achievable? Or are you arguing that those of us who have are some kind of superhumans?

 

[pre med 2014]

My stance is it would be ideal for everyone to take it before M3 and we 'should' in an ideal world but the program isn't set up for it and that's why a big chunk of students are not taking it.

Also foreign doctors come here 10 or 20 years after finishing med school in their home country and do just fine with English not even being their native language. It's a licensing exam required to be completed to get a job/training position to practice medicine. I don't see why it is even tied to Med school at all.

 

[nybgrus]

My stance is it would be ideal to take it before M3 and we 'should' in an ideal world but the program isn't set up for it and that's why a big chunk of students are not taking it.

Also foreign doctors come here 10 or 20 years after finishing med school in their home country and do just fine with English not even being their native language. It's a licensing exam required to be completed to get a job practicing medicine. I don't see why it is even tied to Med school at all.

Then your stance seems to align with mine for the most part. My point is that the big chunk of students not taking it for the reasons you have mentioned do not have a legitimate reason for doing so. My further point is that if you can't get your stuff together enough to manage it (with reasonable legitimate exceptions, of course) then you will have even more difficulty over the rest of your career when it counts even more. So I understand why people aren't actually taking it. My point is that the why is not a valid reason and should not be used as an excuse. As I have argued and will continue to do so, it is very feasible to take the exam before M3 year. It is not that onerous a task. You should be studying and preparing for it for all two years of medical school. If you think an extra week or two right before the exam and an international move are going to literally make or break you, then you aren't adequately studying and preparing in your first 2 years. In other words the issue is not one of the time between M2 and 3, but during your first 2 years.

As for the foreign doctors and English... completely irrelevant. These are fully qualified doctors who have to just take the exam to get licensed, not compete for a residency.

It is also originally intended as a competency exam. The purpose was to ensure that M2's were actually ready and competent to begin M3. It has long since been hijacked as a metric by which to screen applicants based on score, a purpose for which it was never (and still is not) intended. So that is why it is tied into med school. Partly legitimately, partly not. And the fact that it was originally intended to be a competency and licensing exam and not a metric for screening residency applicants is also irrelevant since that is the way it is used now. So you can object to that all day long and I'll be the first to agree with you. But unless you play the game and do what is necessary to do well on that exam (which includes taking it before M3) then you will have ample time to discuss the finer points while not in residency.

But for UQ it is not tied to medical school at all because they can't force us to take it. But that does not change the fact that for practically every reason imaginable it is still by far in one's best interest to take the exam before M3. Period. That has nothing to do with it being tied to med school or anything else, it is a reflection of the exam itself, what is covered, how it plays into your residency applications, and how M3/4 year work as well. It is not some esoteric or theoretical construct, it is a simple reflection of the actual reality students are faced with in the pursuit of a residency.

 

[nybgrus]

I should also clarify...

Between the end of exams and the last data you can take the Step 1 is 47 days. If you need that much time to prepare (which is quite a lot, data actually show that 3-6 weeks of time is optimal with worse performance with studying regimens longer than that and the sweet spot right around 4-5 weeks), then you can stay in Australia, study for over 7 weeks, take the exam, fly to NoLa, and still have over a week to get settled in. Ideal? No. Doable? Yes. Which is why I say that this is more an exercise in sacrifice than discipline. Yeah, you'll miss a Thanksgiving and Xmas with your family. In your chosen profession it won't be the last one. I missed Thanksgiving last year and didn't have a Step exam to take.

 

[deleted158872]

Questions: when do Ochsner students apply for ECFMG Certification? Do they register to take USMLE Step 1 with ECFMG? Why do USMLE exam fees listed on ECFMG (http://www.ecfmg.org/fees/index.html) way more expensive than those listed on USMLE website itself?

 

[pre med 2014]

Nobody cares about missing Christmas to study for the exam, you're not a special snowflake that works harder than everybody else.

 

[pre med 2014]

And you misunderstand my interpretation about comparing students. By compare I mean you can't equate a standard student who delayed the usmle with a UQ-O student who delayed the usmle because taking it on time in a regular program is kindergarden stuff whereas delaying it from our circumstances is actually understandable and doesn't mean we didn't 'sacrifice enough' to be a doctor as that seems to be the root of your objection.


Now I get the system will devalue your worth for taking it later and I don't dispute that. But probably some PDs will be too busy to even understand why you took it in December when every other applicant in the pile took in July. And if we took it in July then unless they are aware of the timeline of the program may not even realize you took it late. It's a licensing examination they just need to see you know enough stuff to be a doctor and that it's legal for them to train you.

Btw foreign doctors who come here and take usmle do have to complete the entire training program AGAIN for their specialty in most cases. There are a couple of loop holes here and there (and most of those just reduce the duration of training required rather than eliminating the requirement altogether) it's not like it's take the boards and practice. Even if they've been attending for a decade they still will be residents again

 

[Enkolo]

And you misunderstand my interpretation about comparing students. By compare I mean you can't equate a standard student who delayed the usmle with a UQ-O student who delayed the usmle because taking it on time in a regular program is kindergarden stuff whereas delaying it from our circumstances is actually understandable and doesn't mean we didn't 'sacrifice enough' to be a doctor as that seems to be the root of your objection.


Now I get the system will devalue your worth for taking it later and I don't dispute that. But probably some PDs will be too busy to even understand why you took it in December when every other applicant in the pile took in July. And if we took it in July then unless they are aware of the timeline of the program may not even realize you took it late. It's a licensing examination they just need to see you know enough stuff to be a doctor and that it's legal for them to train you.

Btw foreign doctors who come here and take usmle do have to complete the entire training program AGAIN for their specialty in most cases. There are a couple of loop holes here and there (and most of those just reduce the duration of training required rather than eliminating the requirement altogether) it's not like it's take the boards and practice. Even if they've been attending for a decade they still will be residents again

Current 2nd year UQ-Ochsner student here. Figured I may as well add my opinion in on this topic as I'm currently in the midst of studying for the USMLE.

As of right now (about 6.5 weeks before my exam date) I can say there is plenty of time to study for the exam. As nybgrus said everyone who starts the program knows that they'll have to take the USMLE and that we're strongly encouraged to take before the start of M3 by the Ochsner administration. Knowing this essentially 2 years out it isn't difficult to plan ahead to give yourself a good dedicated study period. If a student wanted to they could study only USMLE material starting day one of class at UQ, only stopping to cram UQ material during the week before exams and pass. In fact, I know many students who have been doing that all M2.

Overall, comparing UQ-Ochsner student to US students in this regards is pointless. I think we can all agree that it takes hard work and a lot of hours to prepare well for the exam, but there is adequate time to prepare and take it before the start of M3. Whether or not students actually take the USMLE at this time or at all is their choice. Just know that Ochsner will not allow you to participate in any research activities until you have taken the step. Ochsner has also been collecting data on when students take the USMLE and how well they do. From the data they've collected so far students taking the exam after M3 begins do significantly worse and have a higher fail rate than students taking the exam between M2 and M3. Therefore not taking the USMLE before M3 generally has a negative effect on students matching for residency due to lost research opportunities and lower USMLE scores.

Tl;dr- there is enough time to prepare well for the USMLE and take it before M3. Not taking during this time is a bad idea.

 

[pre med 2014]

you cannot neglect UQ material the entire semester then expect to cram in a semesters worth of material a couple weeks before exams. UQ exams are different in nature to the USMLE, doing this can be dangerous and I know people have failed exams using this approach so beware.

I never said there is not enough time.

 

[nybgrus]

Questions: when do Ochsner students apply for ECFMG Certification? Do they register to take USMLE Step 1 with ECFMG? Why do USMLE exam fees listed on ECFMG (http://www.ecfmg.org/fees/index.html) way more expensive than those listed on USMLE website itself?

You do not apply for certification as a student. That is something you do after you are graduated and have completed the Step 3.

The ECFMG acts like the "Dean's Office" of a US or Canadian school; it is the "coordinator" that verifies your credentials and standing for eligibility to take the exams. So yes, you must use the ECFMG to register for and be able to take the Step 1 & 2 (both parts).

Why is it more expensive? Because they charge more for the additional "handling" of the applications. Probably more price gouging rather than legitimate costs, but c'est la vie. Nothing to do about it unless you manage to successfully campaign a policy level change.

 

[nybgrus]

And you misunderstand my interpretation about comparing students. By compare I mean you can't equate a standard student who delayed the usmle with a UQ-O student who delayed the usmle because taking it on time in a regular program is kindergarden stuff whereas delaying it from our circumstances is actually understandable and doesn't mean we didn't 'sacrifice enough' to be a doctor as that seems to be the root of your objection.


Now I get the system will devalue your worth for taking it later and I don't dispute that. But probably some PDs will be too busy to even understand why you took it in December when every other applicant in the pile took in July. And if we took it in July then unless they are aware of the timeline of the program may not even realize you took it late. It's a licensing examination they just need to see you know enough stuff to be a doctor and that it's legal for them to train you.

Btw foreign doctors who come here and take usmle do have to complete the entire training program AGAIN for their specialty in most cases. There are a couple of loop holes here and there (and most of those just reduce the duration of training required rather than eliminating the requirement altogether) it's not like it's take the boards and practice. Even if they've been attending for a decade they still will be residents again

You've yet again completely missed the entire point.

Yes, I get that "taking the Step 1 on time" is easier to do in a US program. You, and those on this thread, are not in nor currently discussing a US program. So whether they get a guaranteed 250 for signing their name or not doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what is required of you, what is in your best interest, and is that achievable.

This is not about PD's wondering why you took your Step 1 in December vs any other month. That is completely and utterly irrelevant. Nobody cares. What matters is your score. If you get a 260 in October or June it doesn't matter. Nor does getting a 192 in October or June. The score matters. And if you delay taking your exam until after M3 starts your score will suffer. As @Enkolo points out, the data support this assertion. Both specific to the UQ-O cohort and in the literature that is generally relevant to the topic.

So my real point is that when you say:

"whereas delaying it from our circumstances is actually understandable and doesn't mean we didn't 'sacrifice enough' to be a doctor"

I disagree. There are legitimate reasons to delay the exam. I have been careful to point that at from the very beginning. My contention is that the mere structure of the program is not a legitimate reason. Just because it is more onerous to take the exam before M3 (and yes, I've also been careful to point that out as well) does not mean it is impossible. It isn't even close to impossible.

So the decision becomes this:

Do I take the exam on time, knowing that it will prove somewhat difficult, possibly miss holidays or time home with family and friends to make it happen or do I delay it to M3 year?

If you delay, you will not have the problems of timing and international moves and all that stuff you've pointed out. But you will have the problems of being in M3 year which is much more difficult than anything you've done in medical school thus far, with much worse hours, duties that will pop up and preclude your planned study times, exhaustion that will make your study less effective, and the need to study for topics that are vitally important for your rotation that are not useful for your Step 1 preparation. In the meantime the minutiae that actually make the difference between a 230 and a 240 will rapidly disappear from your memory since those sort of things are not regularly encountered in typical medical practice. And so, your score will suffer. If your score doesn't suffer then your rotation will suffer. And your grades that actually matter for your application as well as your Letters of Rec which actually matter even more will also suffer. And unless you want to argue that you are that special snowflake the data are pretty clear that you will not actually improve your Step 1 score by delaying into M3 year.

I will take a moment to point out that the data Enkolo references is a correlation and not a causation. It stands to reason that the group of people who delay are also self-selected to be more likely to do poorly or fail. This type of data collection does not allow us to discriminate such points. However, the point stands and other data in the literature as well as understanding what actually happened to people who did delay it all point to the conclusion that delay is extremely unlikely to improve your score and you will either do poorly regardless or do worse because you delayed.

No matter how you slice it, there is zero advantage for nearly anyone to delay taking the exam. AND the mere facts that the UQ program is not structured to prep for the test, the timing sucks in terms of study and moves and transitions to M3, and so on are not valid reasons for delaying it. As Enkolo points out, everyone knows about these constraints before signing any papers. Or at the very least within the first couple of weeks of M1 year if you happened to be someone derelict in your own due diligence.

So yes, delaying taking the exam by citing fixed difficulties (not impossibilities) which will nearly certainly lower your score and, one way or another (or both), make you less competitive for residency is nothing less than not sacrificing enough to be a doctor.

It's a licensing examination they just need to see you know enough stuff to be a doctor and that it's legal for them to train you.

This is what it was intended to be. This is what it should be. But that is not what it actually is. And if you want to just stick your head in the sand and keep saying what you want it to be instead of dealing with what it really is then you'll find yourself very disappointed in the not-too-distant future.

As much as I personally disagree with it, getting less than a 220 on the exam will basically close at least 80% of all residencies to UQ-O students. Getting less than a 230 will close somewhere at least a third of programs. So if you wish to think that it is just "a licensing examination... to see you know enough stuff to be a doctor" then get yourself a 195 and see what happens to your prospects of getting training.

In the meantime, for those actually interested in becoming competitive and getting a shot at as many residency spots as possible (given the known disadvantages an IMG has), my original comment stands:

TAKE YOUR STEP 1 BETWEEN M2 and M3 YEAR!!!!!!

 

[nybgrus]

you cannot neglect UQ material the entire semester then expect to cram in a semesters worth of material a couple weeks before exams. UQ exams are different in nature to the USMLE, doing this can be dangerous and I know people have failed exams using this approach so beware.

I will agree that for some people, and I have no idea if it is a minority or not, ignoring the UQ curriculum is perilous. My advice has always been to ignore it enough to give you time to study for the Step 1 but not so much that you fail your courses. Of course, that is a necessarily vague and ambiguous recommendation. I personally ignored nearly all of the UQ curriculum, went to exactly 1 lecture during M2 year (and none for the second half of M1), and focused nearly exclusively on USMLE material and topics of my own personal interest. I know without a doubt that for many this would not lead to good outcomes, so I cannot use myself as an example. However UQ-O students really should be focusing more on USMLE than UQ curriculum. How much more needs to be a personal decision.

I never said there is not enough time.

So if there is enough time, why are we even involved in this back and forth? How can you argue on the one hand that there is enough time and then become affronted when my comment is merely that there is enough time and if you can't manage to find the discipline and make the sacrifice to do it, you are not succeeding in your duties and responsibilities?

When you are an intern at Ochsner you will need to see 9 patients and write notes on all of them before rounds at 9am. That is actually somewhat difficult. I'd wager more difficult than figuring out how to sucessfully time your Step 1 between M1 & 2 with a 2 year lead time for planning. So what do you think your attending is going to say when you tell them all those wonderfully legitimate reasons for why the time constraints are so tough to meet? Particularly if you then decide to say, some ways into the conversation, that in fact you never said there wasn't enough time to do the work?

Suck it up and do the work. This is far from the most unreasonable demand that will be placed on you in your career. You didn't sign up to be a 9-5 clock punching employee who gets to complain that a 45 minute lunch break would make coming back on time from your Starbucks easier. You are in the process of joining a very small group of highly educated, highly trained, professionals who are a scarce and highly valuable resource to humanity. Act like it.

 

[deleted718115]

You do not apply for certification as a student. That is something you do after you are graduated and have completed the Step 3.

Do residencies require ECFMG certification by the time you apply through ERAS or by the time you actually start residency?

 

[nybgrus]

Do residencies require ECFMG certification by the time you apply through ERAS or by the time you actually start residency?

No. "Certification" means something different than merely registering with the ECFMG. I am still not "certified" since I haven't taken my Step 3 yet.

The ECFMG is literally just a replacement for the Dean's Office that US and Canadian grads use to coordinate all their paperwork so that ERAS can use it.

 

[pre med 2014]

You make some very valid points about taking it on time. But I don't appreciate you bringing up Starbucks in a judgmental way as if coffee drinkers are somehow less productive in the workplace than non-coffee drinkers.

The average UQ-O score for those who delay is currently 215 (vs 225 for those on time) so it is not a doom and gloom scenario but certainly is a disadvantage.

 

[deleted718115]

No. "Certification" means something different than merely registering with the ECFMG. I am still not "certified" since I haven't taken my Step 3 yet.

The ECFMG is literally just a replacement for the Dean's Office that US and Canadian grads use to coordinate all their paperwork so that ERAS can use it.

So when should one register with the ECFMG?

 

[nybgrus]

You make some very valid points about taking it on time. But I don't appreciate you bringing up Starbucks in a judgmental way as if coffee drinkers are somehow less productive in the workplace than non-coffee drinkers.

I bring it up because you brought it up as a thing that somehow makes prepping for something easier.

Anybody can take it on time in fairy land where there are no clinical assessments 2nd year, no relocation, quick and easy access to Starbucks and twice the amount of dedicated study time

I am (now not so) subtly giving you guff for having to dig down to "easy access to Starbucks" as part of your gripes about how the UQ-O program so incredibly hamstrings its students in terms of taking the Step 1 on time.

The average UQ-O score for those who delay is currently 215 (vs 225 for those on time) so it is not a doom and gloom scenario but certainly is a disadvantage.

10 points is a very big deal on the Step 1. The fact that you are so blase about it saying it is merely a "disadvantage" concerns me that you are very much underappreciating the exam and the role it will play in your life.

The difference between a 229 and a 231 is massive. Many programs filter your application by Step scores (and plenty of other metrics). They can define any arbitrary cutoff. Those that do and are more competitive tend to make 230 that cutoff. Meaning that if you get a 229 your application won't even be seen no matter how good the rest of it is. You could literally have a Nobel prize and nobody at the program would have a clue.

You also neglected to recognize that the fail rate is also higher for that cohort of people and that is not factored into the averages. If you fail the Step 1 between a third and a half of programs will no longer consider you, regardless of what your passing score is (it varies by specialty with at least 50% of surgical based programs saying they will not even consider an applicant who has failed the Step 1).

So no, it isn't "doom and gloom." I never said it was. But 10 points is not at all something to sneeze at. And my message was not that it was "doom and gloom." You are the one that continues to inject subjective comments and personal opinions to try and refute points I never made. My point is very clear: the logistics of the program are not such that it truly significantly hinders you from taking the exam on time. Which you not only agree with but also happens to be the best* time to take it.

*Note I didn't say ideal time. But indisputably the best.

 

[nybgrus]

So when should one register with the ECFMG?

Don't sweat it. You'll be walked through it as the time comes. It is reasonably straightforward and just takes a little time to familiarize yourself with the ECFMG and the process. You don't really have to do anything with the ECFMG until M2 and starting earlier isn't necessarily helpful. Though taking the time to read about it and understand it when you aren't pressed for time to do it.

 

[pre med 2014]

A 215 is still a really good score, that is at least 75% of the questions correct if not close to 80%.

You take everything too seriously, the Starbucks comment was partially a joke used as a device to outline extra difficulties associated with living abroad. Of course not being able to get Starbucks is not a serious detriment to a usmle study plan, however the abundance of infrastructure in America greatly increases efficiency in daily work and living. Not having things or services you once took for granted all adds up over the course of a year into decreased production.

 

[UBC2014]

A 215 is still a really good score, that is at least 75% of the questions correct if not close to 80%.

You take everything too seriously, the Starbucks comment was partially a joke used as a device to outline extra difficulties associated with living abroad. Of course not being able to get Starbucks is not a serious detriment to a usmle study plan, however the abundance of infrastructure in America greatly increases efficiency in daily work and living. Not having things or services you once took for granted all adds up over the course of a year into decreased production.

The mean score is a 229 for Step 1 last I checked...doing close to 1 SD below the mean, and being an IMG? Not so sure a 215 is "still a really good score".

Being at the 25th percentile, isn't really good at all. The amount of questions right or wrong is pretty irrelevant, when its a standardized test and you're being compared to everyone else taking it. Self-pride? Sure, its nice to know you got a certain amount right.

 

[UBC2014]

A 215 is still a really good score, that is at least 75% of the questions correct if not close to 80%.

You take everything too seriously, the Starbucks comment was partially a joke used as a device to outline extra difficulties associated with living abroad. Of course not being able to get Starbucks is not a serious detriment to a usmle study plan, however the abundance of infrastructure in America greatly increases efficiency in daily work and living. Not having things or services you once took for granted all adds up over the course of a year into decreased production.

I'm not sure if you're equating the standards and quality of Australia as being less than ideal?

I'm hoping the rebuttal of yours is also in jest, since Australia is far from being a place of lack of infrastructure. The students in the carribean that read this are probably laughing right now "LOL".

 

[pre med 2014]

Bottom 25% doesn't automatically suck.

Bottom 25% of Olympic marathoners don't suck at all. Bottom 25% of a regular marathon? Maybe suck. It's all relative.

 

[nybgrus]

A 215 is still a really good score, that is at least 75% of the questions correct if not close to 80%.

I am not sure how the score translates on the actual exam (pretty sure nobody but the USMLE folks are and that it changes somewhat from test to test). However if you are getting 75-80% of questions right in the USMLEWorld QBank then you are predicted to get in the 240's and even 250's.

Regardless, a 215 is absolutely not a "really good" score. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that doing worse than the average (the average Step 1 score is always in the mid-220's) is "really good." It wouldn't be a good score for a US student and as an IMG you need a higher score than your US counterpart to have an equivalent shot.

While @Phloston tends (or at least used to) be much more doom and gloom about scores it is true that you need an actually really good score to be competitive. The average US score should be considered the floor of an acceptable score for our students. It will be extremely difficult to get any surgical specialty with a score in the 210's. And it will close a lot of doors to nearly anything that isn't a small community program. Not that there is anything necessarily wrong with that. But if people are thinking a 215 is a "really good" score rather than a marginally acceptable one that's not a good thing. A 215 will close a lot of doors for an IMG.

You take everything too seriously, the Starbucks comment was partially a joke used as a device to outline extra difficulties associated with living abroad. Of course not being able to get Starbucks is not a serious detriment to a usmle study plan, however the abundance of infrastructure in America greatly increases efficiency in daily work and living. Not having things or services you once took for granted all adds up over the course of a year into decreased production.

Are you arguing that Australia, Brisbane specifically is somehow lacking in infrastructure? And that it lacks "things or services you once took for granted" in some way that is even remotely meaningful to studying? Unless things drastically changed since I was there the city has many more services, "things," and infrastructure than New Orleans. And in terms of study resources, having access to the Uni, RBWH, PAH and TRI, and so on still eclipses what is available here. And our Step 2 CK scores are well above the average. Care to be more specific about which different and/or more abundant infrastructure exists in America that doesn't in Australia that will "greatly increase efficiency in daily work and living?" Because funny enough the Aussies seem to be doing surprisingly well with all their scientific and research breakthroughs, hosting international conferences, having large multinational corporations, and even snagging a Nobel prize or two along the way for a country so lacking in "things and services" that hamstrings their ability to be productive.

So yeah, I get that the Starbucks was a joke/device. I got that all along. But even now I still wouldn't go back and change what I'd said. You seem to be complaining that a developed English speaking nation which has a higher standard of living, better healthcare, and prosperous international trade is somehow making it difficult to study for and take an exam. I can't imagine how those poor guys at University of North Dakota medical school manage to do it.

 

[nybgrus]

Bottom 25% doesn't automatically suck.

Bottom 25% of Olympic marathoners don't suck at all. Bottom 25% of a regular marathon? Maybe suck. It's all relative.

I don't know if you are trolling or really need a wake up call. Yes, it is all relative. Want to take a guess at who it is you will be competing for residency spots with? All the people who are relatively a lot better than you.

Bottom 25% sucks when you are already starting at the disadvantage of being an IMG. It double sucks if you are trying to go for the 75% of spots that are by definition going to be taken by people better. And it triple sucks when you realize that as an IMG a 215 will almost certainly limit you to not terribly great programs (either not great in program, location, or both) in a small handful of specialties.

I may have to send out some feelers to try and ascertain if your very blinkered thoughts on this are representative of a larger group of students or if you are in the distinct minority that really don't get it.

 

[pre med 2014]

Edit. My calculations appear to be incorrect.

Deleted everything because I don't want to reveal how much I've prepared or lacked in preparation for this exam up to this point.

 

[pre med 2014]

Yea I am not sure why I thought a 215 was so many % correct, but I feel like still not knowing that by now has revealed my lack my of preparation

That makes much more sense, with the average being more in line with %correct on regular med school exam.

I think subconsciously I have been trying to set myself up for the worst possible outcome so that whatever ends up happening is better than what I make myself believe is going to happen.

 

[Phloston]

A 215 is still a really good score, that is at least 75% of the questions correct if not close to 80%.

You take everything too seriously, the Starbucks comment was partially a joke used as a device to outline extra difficulties associated with living abroad. Of course not being able to get Starbucks is not a serious detriment to a usmle study plan, however the abundance of infrastructure in America greatly increases efficiency in daily work and living. Not having things or services you once took for granted all adds up over the course of a year into decreased production.

I am not sure how the score translates on the actual exam (pretty sure nobody but the USMLE folks are and that it changes somewhat from test to test). However if you are getting 75-80% of questions right in the USMLEWorld QBank then you are predicted to get in the 240's and even 250's.

Regardless, a 215 is absolutely not a "really good" score. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that doing worse than the average (the average Step 1 score is always in the mid-220's) is "really good." It wouldn't be a good score for a US student and as an IMG you need a higher score than your US counterpart to have an equivalent shot.

While @Phloston tends (or at least used to) be much more doom and gloom about scores it is true that you need an actually really good score to be competitive. The average US score should be considered the floor of an acceptable score for our students. It will be extremely difficult to get any surgical specialty with a score in the 210's. And it will close a lot of doors to nearly anything that isn't a small community program. Not that there is anything necessarily wrong with that. But if people are thinking a 215 is a "really good" score rather than a marginally acceptable one that's not a good thing. A 215 will close a lot of doors for an IMG.




Are you arguing that Australia, Brisbane specifically is somehow lacking in infrastructure? And that it lacks "things or services you once took for granted" in some way that is even remotely meaningful to studying? Unless things drastically changed since I was there the city has many more services, "things," and infrastructure than New Orleans. And in terms of study resources, having access to the Uni, RBWH, PAH and TRI, and so on still eclipses what is available here. And our Step 2 CK scores are well above the average. Care to be more specific about which different and/or more abundant infrastructure exists in America that doesn't in Australia that will "greatly increase efficiency in daily work and living?" Because funny enough the Aussies seem to be doing surprisingly well with all their scientific and research breakthroughs, hosting international conferences, having large multinational corporations, and even snagging a Nobel prize or two along the way for a country so lacking in "things and services" that hamstrings their ability to be productive.

So yeah, I get that the Starbucks was a joke/device. I got that all along. But even now I still wouldn't go back and change what I'd said. You seem to be complaining that a developed English speaking nation which has a higher standard of living, better healthcare, and prosperous international trade is somehow making it difficult to study for and take an exam. I can't imagine how those poor guys at University of North Dakota medical school manage to do it.

Nybgrus is correct that what might be considered average scores for AMGs are viewed as floors for IMGs. A below average Step 1 as an international unfortunately is a huge hurdle to overcome, but not insurmountable. Step 2 is a blessing to internationals who don't do well on Step 1. The truth is that internationals need about a standard deviation' worth of edge to be viewed as generally equal and competitive with AMGs. Above 260 though the field closes and is pretty equal.

 

[Enkolo]

I am not sure how the score translates on the actual exam (pretty sure nobody but the USMLE folks are and that it changes somewhat from test to test). However if you are getting 75-80% of questions right in the USMLEWorld QBank then you are predicted to get in the 240's and even 250's.

Regardless, a 215 is absolutely not a "really good" score. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion that doing worse than the average (the average Step 1 score is always in the mid-220's) is "really good." It wouldn't be a good score for a US student and as an IMG you need a higher score than your US counterpart to have an equivalent shot.

While @Phloston tends (or at least used to) be much more doom and gloom about scores it is true that you need an actually really good score to be competitive. The average US score should be considered the floor of an acceptable score for our students. It will be extremely difficult to get any surgical specialty with a score in the 210's. And it will close a lot of doors to nearly anything that isn't a small community program. Not that there is anything necessarily wrong with that. But if people are thinking a 215 is a "really good" score rather than a marginally acceptable one that's not a good thing. A 215 will close a lot of doors for an IMG.




Are you arguing that Australia, Brisbane specifically is somehow lacking in infrastructure? And that it lacks "things or services you once took for granted" in some way that is even remotely meaningful to studying? Unless things drastically changed since I was there the city has many more services, "things," and infrastructure than New Orleans. And in terms of study resources, having access to the Uni, RBWH, PAH and TRI, and so on still eclipses what is available here. And our Step 2 CK scores are well above the average. Care to be more specific about which different and/or more abundant infrastructure exists in America that doesn't in Australia that will "greatly increase efficiency in daily work and living?" Because funny enough the Aussies seem to be doing surprisingly well with all their scientific and research breakthroughs, hosting international conferences, having large multinational corporations, and even snagging a Nobel prize or two along the way for a country so lacking in "things and services" that hamstrings their ability to be productive.

So yeah, I get that the Starbucks was a joke/device. I got that all along. But even now I still wouldn't go back and change what I'd said. You seem to be complaining that a developed English speaking nation which has a higher standard of living, better healthcare, and prosperous international trade is somehow making it difficult to study for and take an exam. I can't imagine how those poor guys at University of North Dakota medical school manage to do it.

Just think what Australia could accomplish with the infrastructure of the US. They already have a "Nobel prize or two" without it. If they just had more Starbucks they would win every Nobel prize, all the academy awards, Jarred Hayne wouldn't have been cut by the 49ers, and they definitely wouldn't lose in the rugby World Cup finals to the all blacks ever again.

Curse you Starbucks!!! Why do you hate Australia!?!?