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Im writing a paper, Of the three professional schools (med-school, Dental school, Optometry school) Which one gives the most consideration to URM applicants?
Well I don't know about the other schools but as a dumb, undeserving URM who'll be attending med school this fall I can't wait to fail all my classes and become a sub par doctor compared to all my superior white and Asian classmates.
Well I don't know about the other schools but as a dumb, undeserving URM who'll be attending med school this fall I can't wait to fail all my classes and become a sub par doctor compared to all my superior white and Asian classmates.
Did you grow up poor and/or underserved?
Yep. Still managed a 33 mcat and 3.5 from a top 10 notoriously difficult undergrad. But none of that matters because I'm black and my stats aren't as good as all the orms.
That's not the concern at all... a good chunk for the 60% of people who don't get in ANYWHERE each year would would probably do just fine in medical school too. The concern of URM is about meritocracy... URM's taking the seat of an ORM with with higher stats, better EC's, etc.
Too bad the URM population prefers to be treated by URM doctor. Who also are much more willing to go work in underserved areas.
Blanket statement. Most URM medical students are not from poor upbringings... they are largely from affluent backgrounds, like most of their ORM classmates. If medical schools truly want students to work in poor or underserved areas, they should look for students who grew up in these areas - regardless of race.
As LizzyM said in another thread, medical schools are REQUIRED by the LCME to have racial diversity in their class. They are not required to have socioeconomic diversity. I don't blame URM's for taking advantage of unfair selection criteria - I blame the LCME for instituting it in the first place.
What do you know, I grew up under the same conditions and have good stats as well but I guess I shouldn't get any advantage because, you know, I'm Asian.
Chemengmd, it's a good post and you should post it everytime someone pulls a "zomg, but our seats are stolen!!!"
But in the interest of good statistics, don't forget that when equalized for identical stats, that black applicants get accepted at a higher rate than all other recorded racial groups
What do you know, I grew up under the same conditions and have good stats as well but I guess I shouldn't get any advantage because, you know, I'm Asian.
Blanket statement. Most URM medical students are not from poor upbringings... they are largely from affluent backgrounds, like most of their ORM classmates. If medical schools truly want students to work in poor or underserved areas, they should look for students who grew up in these areas - regardless of race.
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Well I don't know about the other schools but as a dumb, undeserving URM who'll be attending med school this fall I can't wait to fail all my classes and become a sub par doctor compared to all my superior white and Asian classmates.
Any stats to back this up?
I have no axe to grind here but as an Asian did you experience:
1. counselors hinting that you may want to reconsider taking harder classes since, you know, math is too hard for you people;
2. your peers thinking that you're at of your mind when you told them you want to be a doctor,
3. learning early on from society and media that your kind doesn't normally pursue those kinds of job (incapable of it),
4. test anxiety after internalizing that you're not supposed to be good at those tests,
5. discomfort going to class where not a single one of your classmates shares your culture and your experiences?
What nationality? Some schools consider Vietnamese and Pacific Islander to be URM.
Vietnamese, but we're considered East Asian. I'm not familiar with any school like that.
Any stats to back this up?
Hate to actually post in this thread, but it seems like the argument is being too one sided.
I've actually written a couple of papers about AA with a couple of professors and about 91% of blacks that get into good college are from affluent colleges. I'll try to find the credible sources for you guys.
You guys probably don't have the time to watch it, but Lee Bollinger (Columbia University president) and Julian Bond (ex-chairman of NAACP) admit that most blacks going into higher education are not poor or middle class. They argue for AA in other ways.
Their opponents, (a black guy) and a dean from NYU are against AA.
http://fora.tv/2009/04/16/Race_vs_Class_The_Future_of_Affirmative_Action
iave, you didn't know that we were all Carlton Banks type brothers?
Hate to actually post in this thread, but it seems like the argument is being too one sided.
I've actually written a couple of papers about AA with a couple of professors and about 91% of blacks that get into good college are from affluent colleges. I'll try to find the credible sources for you guys.
You guys probably don't have the time to watch it, but Lee Bollinger (Columbia University president) and Julian Bond (ex-chairman of NAACP) admit that most blacks going into higher education are not poor or middle class. They argue for AA in other ways.
Their opponents, (a black guy) and a dean from NYU are against AA.
http://fora.tv/2009/04/16/Race_vs_Class_The_Future_of_Affirmative_Action
What constitutes a good college? Are you talking Ivy League only? I would argue that from my personal experiences with private schools (not ivy, but pretty top tier, comprable to NYU) the majority of the URMs on campus were from lower to middle class backgrounds and were only there because they had full financial aid support...there were basically no middle class students of any race...there were rich students, financial aid students and international students and most URMs fell into the financial aid category
Seems to be the new excuse. If you have a problem with the URM and not the system, then you have a problem with URMs, not the system.
Weasel wording? Until I see stats, just sounds like personal opinions.
That's not the concern at all... a good chunk for the 60% of people who don't get in ANYWHERE each year would would probably do just fine in medical school too. The concern of URM is about meritocracy... URM's taking the seat of an ORM with with higher stats, better EC's, etc.
That's the problem. You never researched this stuff and have a very limited knowledge of this from only your personal experiences. You'd be surprised by the number of people in college (of any race) that claim they are poor but actually aren't. Anyways, if you want cold hard facts from reliable people (NAACP chairman, Columbia President, NYU Deans), then watch the video.
I only said good colleges because those are the ones that usually lack URMs to begin with. URMs usually don't have any trouble getting into average to below average schools (colleges, not med schools if anyone is confused).
Above a certain threshold (good enough to have a high likelihood of passing the boards & being licensed), do applicants with higher stats make better medical students? do they make better doctors?
What are "better" ECs? As long as someone has tested their interest in a career in medicine and has demonstrated a willingness to engage in a career in the service industry (because medicine is a service industry), do some ECs predict better performance in medical school than other ECs? Do some ECs predict that one will be a better doctor than other ECs?
Why do some people think that someone less deserving is taking a seat that is, by right, theirs? What gives them the idea that they are better suited for medical school and the practice of medicine particularly among minority patients?
I posted a video of people who actually know what they're talking about. That should keep you put for a while. Or you can ignore my post and carry on blindly
I'll watch it after I work on some of my secondary essays
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3Xe1kX7Wsc[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YN8pmhQwcnY[/YOUTUBE]
While I do that then you should consider educating yourself on White Privilege.
I skimmed through the video and no where were any type of stats mentioned regarding our discussion, just a lot of personal opinion. If someone makes a statement and I ask for data backing up that statement and ignore things that don't, I'm "carrying on blindly"?
Gotta admit, I thought it would take longer than two pages to hear "white privilege"
I am sorry to hear about your experience and I am sure if you speak about them in a meaningful way the ADCOM will take it in consideration. I do believe that a compelling story is more powerful and helpful in admission than simply clicking on URM checkbox.
Now, the reason I brought up those experience is not to say that Asians do not face any discrimination or additional hurdles but to show that what all URMs (regardless of their SES) have to go through even before they can apply to med school is a very unique experience in this country. ADCOM chooses to recognize this and take in consideration.
Edit: this is in response to TheShaker.
I'll watch it after I work on some of my secondary essays
While I do that then you should consider educating yourself on White Privilege.
Skimmed a 2 hour video in 5 minutes? Okay
sometimes people blame race when they are bitter about reapplying
I'm not doubting that URMs have to jump through hurdles in life to apply. As you said in your post, both URMs and SES disadvantaged non-URMs have to go through struggles to get their education and get to the point of application. I think the problem is that, as you said, I can always describe the conditions that I grew up in to the adcoms and they'll evaluate it based on whatever factors they find important. This sounds like a largely subjective process, it will resonate with some and be discounted by others. I have to make a convincing case and then hope that they agree with what I have to say. On the other hand, URMs can tell the same story more objectively. A check in the box is certainly more objective and can't be disagreed with. That means that I'm still having to make my case while the 300k/year CEO's son who happens to be black will have the same or greater advantage. Furthermore, compare him to the black guy who grew up in South Central with crackhead parents. Of course, the latter will have any experience to talk about, but the former having an advantage seems absurd to me. At least that's how I see it. I'll admit that I'm roughly familiar with the information about URMs out there so I could be completely wrong.
I know right? All those blick sons of CEOs stealing medical school seats from the hard working class.
If you'd like to take a phrase from my post and respond to it out of context then fine.
I'm not doubting that URMs have to jump through hurdles in life to apply. As you said in your post, both URMs and SES disadvantaged non-URMs have to go through struggles to get their education and get to the point of application. I think the problem is that, as you said, I can always describe the conditions that I grew up in to the adcoms and they'll evaluate it based on whatever factors they find important. This sounds like a largely subjective process, it will resonate with some and be discounted by others. I have to make a convincing case and then hope that they agree with what I have to say. On the other hand, URMs can tell the same story more objectively. A check in the box is certainly more objective and can't be disagreed with. That means that I'm still having to make my case while the 300k/year CEO's son who happens to be black will have the same or greater advantage. Furthermore, compare him to the black guy who grew up in South Central with crackhead parents. Of course, the latter will have any experience to talk about, but the former having an advantage seems absurd to me. At least that's how I see it. I'll admit that I'm roughly familiar with the information about URMs out there so I could be completely wrong.
I don't see how you determine that by simply checking the box URM has the same or even greater advantage than someone else with a compelling story.
My very first response to you in this thread outlines some of the most common experiences that ALL URM faced at some point in their lives, regardless of SES. So I really don't see why they can't use a checkmark to acknowledge it.
Lastly, I really don't understand why some people on here are so mad at URM. Look, there are far more ORMS kids who get in with below average stats because their (physician) parents set them up with some great experiences (read: lors) and had tons of help in the process that a regular guy applying will have to work very hard to get.
My very first response to you in this thread outlines some of the most common experiences that ALL URM faced at some point in their lives, regardless of SES. So I really don't see why they can't use a checkmark to acknowledge it.
Lastly, I really don't understand why some people on here are so mad at URM. Look, there are far more ORMS kids who get in with below average stats because their (physician) parents set them up with some great experiences (read: lors) and had tons of help in the process that a regular guy applying will have to work very hard to get.