URM? Any Insights from adcoms or interviewers?

[LMBLBM]

What are some ethical grounds for accepting more URMs leads to better patient care overall?
I personally believe that none-URM-physicians are fully capable of providing quality care to URM. If the society needs more diversity, should't we be focusing more on socioeconomic backgrounds of an individual, not her/his race? I think it is more discriminating to assume that an individual with a certain race requires additional 'points' to equally compete with a none-URM individual?

For above reason, I did not categorize myself as an URM, even though I 'qualified' for one. Come to think of it, Does 'URM policy' exist for applicants or for the society we live in? or for both?

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[lmn]

If you're interested in the topic of diversity you should read up on it, there are tons of studies and information on the benefits of diversity. There is a reason schools and companies work hard to create a diverse composition, and it is much more than to say look we have colored people too and that they match you.

 

[hoihaie]

Sometimes for whatever reason, people feel more open/relaxed around people of their own culture or ethnicity

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

there are tons of studies and information on the benefits of diversity. There is a reason schools and companies work hard to create a diverse composition, and it is much more than to say look we have colored people too and that they match you.

This is highly debatable and there is no sound scientific way to truly prove diversity vs. homogeneity with the same population having a positive or negative effect. If you think there is absolutely no political/economic advantage to "diversity" then you are being naive. Everything is about politics and business

 

[mrh125]

This is highly debatable and there is no sound scientific way to truly prove diversity vs. homogeneity with the same population having a positive or negative effect. If you think there is absolutely no political/economic advantage to "diversity" then you are being naive. Everything is about politics and business

also, 20 people from the same background can have far more diverse world views and experience than a thousand people of different backgrounds in the same room. making race = diversity is a blatant oversimplification that does almost no one justice.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

What are some ethical grounds for accepting more URMs leads to better patient care overall?
I personally believe that none-URM-physicians are fully capable of providing quality care to URM. If the society needs more diversity, should't we be focusing more on socioeconomic backgrounds of an individual, not her/his race? I think it is more discriminating to assume that an individual with a certain race requires additional 'points' to equally compete with a none-URM individual?

For above reason, I did not categorize myself as an URM, even though I 'qualified' for one. Come to think of it, Does 'URM policy' exist for applicants or for the society we live in? or for both?

Here is some data:

Patients trust a doctor their own race more:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18474881

Medical students are better prepared for having a racially diverse class:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=182528

Having a lower statistical threshold for URM admittance benefits everyone, the patients, the physician, and his/her classmates.

 

[mrh125]

Here is some data:

Patients trust a doctor their own race more:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18474881

Medical students are better prepared for having a racially diverse class:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=182528

Having a lower statistical threshold for URM admittance benefits everyone, the patients, the physician, and his/her classmates.

how on earth does trusting a patient trusting their own race more imply anything about diversity? that sounds more like a study on homogeny.

 

[hoihaie]

I'm sure they are just brilliant. This is still embarrassing.

how on earth does trusting a patient trusting their own race more imply anything about diversity? that sounds more like a study on homogeny.

in order to serve a diverse population of patients, you need equally diverse doctors so that all patients can feel at ease

 

[EMDO2018]

another one

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

how on earth does trusting a patient trusting their own race more imply anything about diversity? that sounds more like a study on homogeny.

I'm not saying whether it is morally right or wrong for a white person to trust a white doctor more, or a black person to trust a black doctor more, I am just presenting data that shows it is the case.

 

[Womb Raider]

What are some ethical grounds for accepting more URMs leads to better patient care overall?
I personally believe that none-URM-physicians are fully capable of providing quality care to URM. If the society needs more diversity, should't we be focusing more on socioeconomic backgrounds of an individual, not her/his race?

Ethical grounds? Ha...

Apparently, they (medical schools) are O.K. with infringing on the rights of the individual (providing advantages based on skin color) to better society as a whole. Of course, when I say "better society as a whole" I of course am referring to leading society into a system where black doctors treat black patients, White doctors treat White patients, Asian doctors treat Asian patients, etc... (This IS the rationale behind these advantages). Wait, have we desegregated yet?

However, this seems counter intuitive to me. What about Tuskegee? What about Henrietta Lacks? These are prime examples of utilitarian ethics (i.e. hurting a few to save many) in society getting blown to pieces by people shouting "human rights!" Don't get me wrong, I agree with the outcome of these stories, and the ethical progression in America, but some things (URM advantage) seem to be going in the wrong direction.

There a bunch of hypocrites here... Sigh.

 

[V5RED]

What are some ethical grounds for accepting more URMs leads to better patient care overall?
I personally believe that none-URM-physicians are fully capable of providing quality care to URM. If the society needs more diversity, should't we be focusing more on socioeconomic backgrounds of an individual, not her/his race? I think it is more discriminating to assume that an individual with a certain race requires additional 'points' to equally compete with a none-URM individual?

For above reason, I did not categorize myself as an URM, even though I 'qualified' for one. Come to think of it, Does 'URM policy' exist for applicants or for the society we live in? or for both?

Unless something has changed since the 2014 application, you can't categorize yourself as URM. You list your race/ethnicity and the school can then decide if that fits any sort of URM classification they are using.

 

[touchpause13]

:Beat:

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Can a moderator close this thread? @Ismet

 

[deleted480308]

Here is some data:


Medical students are better prepared for having a racially diverse class:
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=182528

no....what that study says is that white students in a very diverse class are more likely to SAY they believe in "equitable" access to care and SAY they have been trained in how to deal with diverse populations. It doesn't mean that they are better prepared to be a physician in any objective or quantifiable sense.

I'm cool with you guys making the arguments for URM considerations...but please be more accurate about it

 

[lmn]

This is highly debatable and there is no sound scientific way to truly prove diversity vs. homogeneity with the same population having a positive or negative effect. If you think there is absolutely no political/economic advantage to "diversity" then you are being naive. Everything is about politics and business

I didn't say there wasn't an advantage at all, I said it wasn't nearly the only reason - come on you took VR . And you can pretend all day long that skin color/ethnicity doesn't matter in a work force dealing with populations from around the world due to the fact that you don't need to be a particular ethnicity to be from a certain area or empathize, but the world isn't perfect and there are certainly times where having a diverse workforce makes a huge difference in securing favorable outcomes. Not to mention the benefits you get from hearing from diverse people on their experiences in life and healthcare situations where they may have been exposed to prejudices or other factors that you may have never experienced and need to consider when you treat people in the future.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

I didn't say there wasn't an advantage at all, I said it wasn't nearly the only reason - come on you took VR . And you can pretend all day long that skin color/ethnicity doesn't matter in a work force dealing with populations from around the world due to the fact that you don't need to be a particular ethnicity to be from a certain area or empathize, but the world isn't perfect and there are certainly times where having a diverse workforce makes a huge difference in securing favorable outcomes. Not to mention the benefits you get from hearing from diverse people on their experiences in life and healthcare situations where they may have been exposed to prejudices or other factors that you may have never experienced and need to consider when you treat people in the future.

I completely agree that diversity has its pros. I like having colleagues of different races, ethnicities, nationalities and income levels. Me saying institutionalized race-based admissions is largely political and economic has nothing to do with what I personally think of diversity. Those studies are dubious at best and when interpreted in either a pro-affirmative action or anti-affirmative action manner, they can lead to false conclusions.

Just because diversity is good (you can't prove it is advantageous), it doesn't mean the best way to achieve is systematically giving an upper hand to different demographics.

 

[lmn]

I completely agree that diversity has its pros. I like having colleagues of different races, ethnicities, nationalities and income levels. Me saying institutionalized race-based admissions is largely political and economic has nothing to do with what I personally think of diversity. Those studies are dubious at best and when interpreted in either a pro-affirmative action or anti-affirmative action manner, they can lead to false conclusions.

Just because diversity is good (you can't prove it is advantageous), it doesn't mean the best way to achieve is systematically giving an upper hand to different demographics.

I agree that it isn't done anywhere near ideally imo, but I personally think it is necessary enough from my experiences that action needs to be taken to promote it. It's a tough situation though, you want as much diversity as possible, so it would be great to get inner city kids and rural kids to mix with huge amount of upper-middle class suburban type of students that make up such a huge portion of higher education and med school. Unfortunately the majority of the racial diverse people that are even remotely able to jump through the hurdles to be considered are many times from the same upper-middle class suburbia except their skin is darker. Who knows, blame our inequality and social programs and education programs that create that situation from the start maybe, but unfortunately med schools get dealt a particular hand where they really need diversity, yet the system doesn't provide them anywhere near adequate amounts of qualified applicants.

 

[The Buff OP]

A single shot of antibiotic 'could be new MRSA treatment'
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/277796.php

Anybody hitting legs today? I am.

 

[Optimus-Prime]

A single shot of antibiotic 'could be new MRSA treatment'
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/277796.php

Anybody hitting legs today? I am.

Shoulders and tri's, legs tomorrow

 

[Goro]

Go look up LizzyM's comments on this.

What are some ethical grounds for accepting more URMs leads to better patient care overall?
I personally believe that none-URM-physicians are fully capable of providing quality care to URM. If the society needs more diversity, should't we be focusing more on socioeconomic backgrounds of an individual, not her/his race? I think it is more discriminating to assume that an individual with a certain race requires additional 'points' to equally compete with a none-URM individual?

For above reason, I did not categorize myself as an URM, even though I 'qualified' for one. Come to think of it, Does 'URM policy' exist for applicants or for the society we live in? or for both?

 

[LizzyM]

Go look up LizzyM's comments on this.

I wasn't even sure what my comments were but here's a pretty good thread from 5 months ago:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...y-on-applications-disadvantage.1052363/page-2
Start with post #63

 

[Goro]

Yup, that's it! Pay very careful attention to this one, folks.

I wasn't even sure what my comments were but here's a pretty good thread from 5 months ago:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...y-on-applications-disadvantage.1052363/page-2
Start with post #63

 

[LMBLBM]

I wasn't even sure what my comments were but here's a pretty good thread from 5 months ago:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...y-on-applications-disadvantage.1052363/page-2
Start with post #63

Thank you

 

[23premes]

A single shot of antibiotic 'could be new MRSA treatment'
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/277796.php

Anybody hitting legs today? I am.

Quads and hams today.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Ethical grounds? Ha...

Apparently, they (medical schools) are O.K. with infringing on the rights of the individual (providing advantages based on skin color) to better society as a whole. Of course, when I say "better society as a whole" I of course am referring to leading society into a system where black doctors treat black patients, White doctors treat White patients, Asian doctors treat Asian patients, etc... (This IS the rationale behind these advantages). Wait, have we desegregated yet?

However, this seems counter intuitive to me. What about Tuskegee? What about Henrietta Lacks? These are prime examples of utilitarian ethics (i.e. hurting a few to save many) in society getting blown to pieces by people shouting "human rights!" Don't get me wrong, I agree with the outcome of these stories, and the ethical progression in America, but some things (URM advantage) seem to be going in the wrong direction.

There a bunch of hypocrites here... Sigh.

No worries affirmative action is antiquated and no longer supported by the general public. It will be phased out of medical school admissions eventually. Before you all jump in to say this isn't undergrad admissions and it's different: I know. Doesn't make it any less racist.

 

[23premes]

No worries affirmative action is antiquated and no longer supported by the general public. It will be phased out of medical school admissions eventually. Before you all jump in to say this isn't undergrad admissions and it's different: I know. Doesn't make it any less racist.

Why and when do you think it will be phased out? I'm not so sure of it being phased out any time soon really.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Why and when do you think it will be phased out? I'm not so sure of it being phased out any time soon really.

It is a racist practice that is not viewed upon as favorable to the general public and even those who support it (medical school admissions at least) can agree it is not anywhere near perfect. I am willing to bet it does not go away before we die. People stick to traditions

 

[elizabetts]

You'd probably stop getting so upset about how "unfair" affirmative action is if you got the MSAR and saw the actual numbers of URMs matriculating at medical schools. The 5 black kids at Harvard are not what's keeping you from getting an acceptance.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

You'd probably stop getting so upset about how "unfair" affirmative action is if you got the MSAR and saw the actual numbers of URMs matriculating at medical schools. The 5 black kids at Harvard are not what's keeping you from getting an acceptance.

Lol. It's about the principle, not the numbers. I don't care if it's 1 or 1000. Also I'm not upset - I am happily eating a corn dog and watching british people eat nasty American food as we speak

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

Lol. It's about the principle, not the numbers. I don't care if it's 1 or 1000. Also I'm not upset - I am happily eating a corn dog and watching british people eat nasty American food as we speak

How do you feel about the HBCs or Puerto Rican medical schools? Not flaming you, just curious about your take on very mission-specific schools.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

How do you feel about the HBCs or Puerto Rican medical schools? Not flaming you, just curious about your take on very mission-specific schools.

Hm I don't really have a stance on them. They're just there to me lol. Although I understand that Puerto Rican schools artificially drag down Hispanic stats since they are not really attainable by most mainlanders.

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

Hm I don't really have a stance on them. They're just there to me lol. Although I understand that Puerto Rican schools artificially drag down Hispanic stats since they are not really attainable by most mainlanders.

Ok, lets talk about general mission stuff.
If a school's mission is to provide doctors for under-served communities, and one group of people are more likely to go into under-served communities, should that group get preferential treatment in admissions?

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Ok, lets talk about general mission stuff.
If a school's mission is to provide doctors for under-served communities, and one group of people are more likely to go into under-served communities, should that group get preferential treatment in admissions?

No. That's my stance. I've read all the arguments here for both sides and I just don't find any argument to be sound enough to preferentially treat one group vs. another. If that school really wants to help under served communities they can give out scholarships to those who will commit to those areas. They can give incentives to their students to help promote awareness.

 

[plumazul]

/thread

 

[LMBLBM]

Ok, lets talk about general mission stuff.
If a school's mission is to provide doctors for under-served communities, and one group of people are more likely to go into under-served communities, should that group get preferential treatment in admissions?

I totally agree with you. However, you are making an assumption that URM=under-served communities. Why use race to predict that an applicant would serve in under-served communities?

 

[OneTwoThreeFour]

I totally agree with you. However, you are making an assumption that URM=under-served communities. Why use race to predict that an applicant would serve in under-served communities?

Looking at the statistics, black and hispanic applicants are more likely to plan on serving in under-served communities.

Err...See figures 30 and 31, specifically

 

[LizzyM]

No. That's my stance. I've read all the arguments here for both sides and I just don't find any argument to be sound enough to preferentially treat one group vs. another. If that school really wants to help under served communities they can give out scholarships to those who will commit to those areas. They can give incentives to their students to help promote awareness.

Here I am, underserved community. I am not someone you would identify with culturally/racially but I'm being paid to come to this community and serve your needs. What, you don't trust me? You aren't sure I'm going to be here for the long haul but only for as long as I need to be here to pay off my loans or my service commitment? No, I don't live nearb and you didn't see me in the grocery store last week; I live in a suburb 40 miles from here where the housing isn't as run down as it is here. Yeah, maybe I don't understand what you mean when you say that you have low blood or high blood or that your brother had sick as hell anemia before he died. I'm just here because I got a scholarship in exchange for agreeing to be your doctor.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Here I am, underserved community. I am not someone you would identify with culturally/racially but I'm being paid to come to this community and serve your needs. What, you don't trust me? You aren't sure I'm going to be here for the long haul but only for as long as I need to be here to pay off my loans or my service commitment? No, I don't live nearb and you didn't see me in the grocery store last week; I live in a suburb 40 miles from here where the housing isn't as run down as it is here. Yeah, maybe I don't understand what you mean when you say that you have low blood or high blood or that your brother had sick as hell anemia before he died. I'm just here because I got a scholarship in exchange for agreeing to be your doctor.

That's a fair point. However, I'm pretty sure you guys don't screen for compton-only URMs either, do you?

Also there are whites, asians, etc who live in those neighborhoods.

 

[ChEMD]

I dunno why, but it still amazes me how many of these threads get started every week. It's laughable to call any of it racism when almost every medical school class is what, like 80% White/Asian? Underserved areas need physicians and minority physicians are, on average, more likely to go work there. And it's not because they are getting loan forgiveness to go there. It's because they want to go back and serve the community that they grew up in. And because they actually want to be there, they are probably going to be more invested in their patients and provide overall better care.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

I dunno why, but it still amazes me how many of these threads get started every week. It's laughable to call any of it racism when almost every medical school class is what, like 80% White/Asian?

It wouldn't matter if medical schools were 99% white/asian if 1% of URMs are getting preferential treatment. Same story with 50%. It does not matter what percentage of ORM comprise the medical student body. We are talking preferential treatment in terms of admissions standards.[/QUOTE]

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Ok i'm outta here yall. Have a great weekend!

 

[ChEMD]

It wouldn't matter if medical schools were 99% white/asian if 1% of URMs are getting preferential treatment. Same story with 50%. It does not matter what percentage of ORM comprise the medical student body. We are talking preferential treatment in terms of admissions standards.

Way to quote out the rest of my post in order to make your argument.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Way to quote out the rest of my post in order to make your argument.

In the world of online forums, that usually means I have nothing worthwhile to say about the rest of your post.

 

[LizzyM]

That's a fair point. However, I'm pretty sure you guys don't screen for compton-only URMs either, do you?

Also there are whites, asians, etc who live in those neighborhoods.

Yeah, like Englewood area of Chicago... 30,000+ residents, 139 are white or Asian (that's < 0.5% of the total), 300 Hispanics (1%) and the rest are Black.
Newark, NJ: 227,000 residents, 85% are black or Hispanic.

 

[Aerus]

It wouldn't matter if medical schools were 99% white/asian if 1% of URMs are getting preferential treatment.

Why do you think the statistics are like this? If you're saying that somehow, Whites or Asians are inherently more hardworking or smarter, then THAT is racism...

There is a shortage of Black and Hispanic Physicians (definition of URM), since they are more likely to go back to serve these poor communities, in which Black and Hispanics are waaay over represented in.

 

[Aerus]

If the society needs more diversity, should't we be focusing more on socioeconomic backgrounds of an individual, not her/his race?

Why do you think SES diversity is the only thing that matters? Are all the problems in the world based only on financial problems? Racism is well and alive today and is a legitimate concern in the medical field.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Why do you think the statistics are like this? If you're saying that somehow, Whites or Asians are inherently more hardworking or smarter, then THAT is racism...

There is a shortage of Black and Hispanic Physicians (definition of URM), since they are more likely to go back to serve these poor communities, in which Black and Hispanics are waaay over represented in.

Statistics are like this because whites and asians make up most of the applicant pool

 

[Mr Interesting]

Statistics are like this because whites and asians make up most of the applicant pool

Why do you think that is? Do you think that's because historically, minorities were barred from entering those schools? Some of the first black students to be accepted to many medical schools are still alive today so it wasn't that long ago. Ever volunteer at a retirement home and spoken to many of the minority elders there? I guarantee you will find many that will say they would have loved to be a doctor, a lawyer, or any other kind of professional if they thought they could. The fact remains, they were kept out of great schools and barred from high paying jobs so they looked elsewhere for other opportunities to make money and support their family. The opportunities that exist for minorities today haven't always been there and because they are there you will see more of minorities take advantage of this and get educated and become professionals. Things are changing though and in time, whites and Asians will not make up most of the applicant pool.

 

[Fabio Lanzoni]

Why do you think that is? Do you think that's because historically, minorities were barred from entering those schools? Some of the first black students to be accepted to many medical schools are still alive today so it wasn't that long ago. Ever volunteer at a retirement home and spoken to many of the minority elders there? I guarantee you will find many that will say they would have loved to be a doctor, a lawyer, or any other kind of professional if they thought they could. The fact remains, they were kept out of great schools and barred from high paying jobs so they looked elsewhere for other opportunities to make money and support their family. The opportunities that exist for minorities today haven't always been there and because they are there you will see more of minorities take advantage of this and get educated and become professionals. Things are changing though and in time, whites and Asians will not make up most of the applicant pool.

Sure, sounds cheeky. Alright, I'm boning out for real now