US Citizen going to Australia for Med School

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phattestlewt

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I was looking into the MD program at Uni of Melbourne and had some questions i was hoping could get answered on here.

If I wanted to practice back in the US, would I take my USLME during my MD and in Australia?

I'm pretty competitive for US med schools but the thought just crossed my mind that I could go overseas to do medicine.

Any thoughts on this?

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I was looking into the MD program at Uni of Melbourne and had some questions i was hoping could get answered on here.

If I wanted to practice back in the US, would I take my USLME during my MD and in Australia?

I'm pretty competitive for US med schools but the thought just crossed my mind that I could go overseas to do medicine.

Any thoughts on this?

I'm an American graduate of an Australian university. If your goal is to practice in the states (and you can get into an American school) stay in the states for med school.

That being said, yes, you can take the USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK here in Australia. There's a testing center in Melbourne and Sydney. You'll need to return to the states to take Step 2 CS.
 
In general, attending a US medical school will make you more competitive for residency in the States, but not all international schools are alike.

I disagree with neulite30 because University of Melbourne is actually one of the best universities in the world for medicine (ranked 12th).

One of my friends from high school who went to Princeton for his undergrad is now at University of Melbourne's MD program.

If you can generate competitive numbers getting into med school, you'll have no issue topping the USMLE, which is even easier than the MCAT.

Most people who go abroad for med school do so because they have to, but a smaller fraction want the life experience.
 
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The added bonus of U Melbourne is that internationals in the state of Victoria are the highest preference after domestics at a medical school in Victoria, so you will have strong odds at staying here afterwards without much difficulty.

The only negative is that Melbourne/Victoria is nothing in comparison to Queensland :)
 
I was looking into the MD program at Uni of Melbourne and had some questions i was hoping could get answered on here.

If I wanted to practice back in the US, would I take my USLME during my MD and in Australia?

I'm pretty competitive for US med schools but the thought just crossed my mind that I could go overseas to do medicine.

Any thoughts on this?
Yes, you can do that.

You should know that if you're planning to come back to the US, it doesn't matter if you have the Melbourne "MD" or the "MBBS" from anywhere else. They're really the same degree. I did an MBBS at Sydney, but once I got my ECFMG certification in the US, all of my qualifications were translated as "MD." My name tag says "MD," the hospital system has me down as an "MD," the accreditation body has me as an "MD," etc.

I'm an American graduate of an Australian university. If your goal is to practice in the states (and you can get into an American school) stay in the states for med school.

That being said, yes, you can take the USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK here in Australia. There's a testing center in Melbourne and Sydney. You'll need to return to the states to take Step 2 CS.

Agree with the above. If you want to go to the US with a foreign degree, you have to jump through a million extra hoops. In my class, 50-60% of the people who wanted to go back to North America didn't end up doing it, just because it requires so much extra effort on your own. If you go to med school in the US or the Caribbean, those things are already taken care of for you.

In general, attending a US medical school will make you more competitive for residency in the States, but not all international schools are alike.

I disagree with neulite30 because University of Melbourne is actually one of the best universities in the world for medicine (ranked 12th).
For the purpose of admissions, those rankings are essentially irrelevant beyond the fact that Melbourne is better than the average international school. The only benefit is that Melbourne has name recognition in the US, just like U.Sydney, U.London, U.Chicago, NYU, UCLA, etc. I would argue that I had more name recognition as a Sydney grad than I would have had as a Melbourne grad, just because Americans are more exposed to Sydney than Melbourne (probably because of the Olympics, or because they read on Wikipedia that Sydney is the biggest city in Australia, or because Sydney is a more popular vacation destination because of the weather/beaches, or because of the Opera House). Of course, the difference is minor. I agree that U.Melbourne has slightly stronger research opportunities than U.Sydney (hence the higher ranking), but I think that Sydney is at least as good of a med school because Sydney is a more diverse city, which allows you to see wider diversity of clinical cases. Also, Sydney hospitals have a wider catchment area and a wider rural network, since NSW is bigger than Victoria. On the other hand, better research tends to attract better faculty, which is how Melbourne earned their higher ranking. Melbourne also seems to have better facilities, and is a more comfortable city in which to live.

But all that aside, when students come to the US from overseas, they don't get ignored due to concerns about the quality of their education (although that might be a concern). It's because they're a risk, since the program director can't be 100% sure that this student was educated in the same way that would be expected of an American student. It's not that they're assuming that the student is inferior - just that it's not as safe of a bet as an American grad. The risk will be lower with a Melbourne grad than it would be with a Notre Dame grad, but in general, people tend to be more cautious with IMGs in general. And it's fair - in Australia, med students don't have the same clinical responsibilities that they do in the US. You can get through med school without really showing up for your rotations for more than 10-15 hours a week. Most of your basic training happens in PGY1/2. In the US, the same level of training happens when you're a sub-intern in your 4th year of med school. As a PGY1 in the US, I do much of the same type of work that my colleagues did as PGY2-3's in Australia. As PGY1s in Australia, interns usually just follow a more senior doctor around and write notes, do paperwork, etc. I rarely ever saw an intern make a clinical decision in Australia. And because of that, an Australian med school grad is, in fact, less prepared for the American system than an American grad. Of course, you can overcome that by doing a couple of med school rotations in the US.

If you can generate competitive numbers getting into med school, you'll have no issue topping the USMLE, which is even easier than the MCAT.
No way dude. I studied for the MCAT for a total of maybe 60-80 hours over 2 months (after barely studying during college) and got a 35, which was 94-95th percentile at the time. For Step 1, I put in literally 10 times that many hours over 2-3 months (on top of studying daily during the first 2 years of med school), and got 227, which was barely above average. For Step 2, I probably studied 30-40 hours a week for 2 months while on rotations, and got 242, which is again less than one standard deviation above the mean.

The MCAT has much more critical thinking, while the USMLE is very reliant on knowing specific information. You can answer 50% of the questions on the MCAT with a high school science education and high intellect, while you can probably only answer about 5% of USMLE questions if you haven't been to med school

The added bonus of U Melbourne is that internationals in the state of Victoria are the highest preference after domestics at a medical school in Victoria, so you will have strong odds at staying here afterwards without much difficulty.

The only negative is that Melbourne/Victoria is nothing in comparison to Queensland :)
I don't know man... in my book, Melbourne is definitely a very close second to Sydney.
 
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Yes, you can do that.

You should know that if you're planning to come back to the US, it doesn't matter if you have the Melbourne "MD" or the "MBBS" from anywhere else. They're really the same degree. I did an MBBS at Sydney, but once I got my ECFMG certification in the US, all of my qualifications were translated as "MD." My name tag says "MD," the hospital system has me down as an "MD," the accreditation body has me as an "MD," etc.



Agree with the above. If you want to go to the US with a foreign degree, you have to jump through a million extra hoops. In my class, 50-60% of the people who wanted to go back to North America didn't end up doing it, just because it requires so much extra effort on your own. If you go to med school in the US or the Caribbean, those things are already taken care of for you.


For the purpose of admissions, those rankings are essentially irrelevant beyond the fact that Melbourne is better than the average international school. The only benefit is that Melbourne has name recognition in the US, just like U.Sydney, U.London, U.Chicago, NYU, UCLA, etc. I would argue that I had more name recognition as a Sydney grad than I would have had as a Melbourne grad, just because Americans are more exposed to Sydney than Melbourne (probably because of the Olympics, or because they read on Wikipedia that Sydney is the biggest city in Australia, or because Sydney is a more popular vacation destination because of the weather/beaches, or because of the Opera House). Of course, the difference is minor. I agree that U.Melbourne has slightly stronger research opportunities than U.Sydney (hence the higher ranking), but I think that Sydney is at least as good of a med school because Sydney is a more diverse city, which allows you to see wider diversity of clinical cases. Also, Sydney hospitals have a wider catchment area and a wider rural network, since NSW is bigger than Victoria. On the other hand, better research tends to attract better faculty, which is how Melbourne earned their higher ranking. Melbourne also seems to have better facilities, and is a more comfortable city in which to live.

But all that aside, when students come to the US from overseas, they don't get ignored due to concerns about the quality of their education (although that might be a concern). It's because they're a risk, since the program director can't be 100% sure that this student was educated in the same way that would be expected of an American student. It's not that they're assuming that the student is inferior - just that it's not as safe of a bet as an American grad. The risk will be lower with a Melbourne grad than it would be with a Notre Dame grad, but in general, people tend to be more cautious with IMGs in general. And it's fair - in Australia, med students don't have the same clinical responsibilities that they do in the US. You can get through med school without really showing up for your rotations for more than 10-15 hours a week. Most of your basic training happens in PGY1/2. In the US, the same level of training happens when you're a sub-intern in your 4th year of med school. As a PGY1 in the US, I do much of the same type of work that my colleagues did as PGY2-3's in Australia. As PGY1s in Australia, interns usually just follow a more senior doctor around and write notes, do paperwork, etc. I rarely ever saw an intern make a clinical decision in Australia. And because of that, an Australian med school grad is, in fact, less prepared for the American system than an American grad. Of course, you can overcome that by doing a couple of med school rotations in the US.


No way dude. I studied for the MCAT for a total of maybe 60-80 hours over 2 months (after barely studying during college) and got a 35, which was 94-95th percentile at the time. For Step 1, I put in literally 10 times that many hours over 2-3 months (on top of studying daily during the first 2 years of med school), and got 227, which was barely above average. For Step 2, I probably studied 30-40 hours a week for 2 months while on rotations, and got 242, which is again less than one standard deviation above the mean.

The MCAT has much more critical thinking, while the USMLE is very reliant on knowing specific information. You can answer 50% of the questions on the MCAT with a high school science education and high intellect, while you can probably only answer about 5% of USMLE questions if you haven't been to med school


I don't know man... in my book, Melbourne is definitely a very close second to Sydney.


So are you staying on out here or are you now in the US?

As a side note I love when people say they did well on a subjective test because it demands 'high intellect' and did relatively poorly on another subjective test due to/because [insert excuse here].
 
No way dude. I studied for the MCAT for a total of maybe 60-80 hours over 2 months (after barely studying during college) and got a 35, which was 94-95th percentile at the time. For Step 1, I put in literally 10 times that many hours over 2-3 months (on top of studying daily during the first 2 years of med school), and got 227, which was barely above average. For Step 2, I probably studied 30-40 hours a week for 2 months while on rotations, and got 242, which is again less than one standard deviation above the mean.

The MCAT has much more critical thinking, while the USMLE is very reliant on knowing specific information. You can answer 50% of the questions on the MCAT with a high school science education and high intellect, while you can probably only answer about 5% of USMLE questions if you haven't been to med school

The MCAT is easy only if one has a science background (which was most of us), but some people (e.g. philosophy majors) really have to prep hard for it.

I had studied for 10 days for the MCAT and my percentile matched my USMLE Step1. But I didn't really "study" for 10 days; my prep was actually my entire undergrad as a biochemistry major, which far exceeded the length of time required for the USMLE. The USMLE is just memorizing facts for the most part and then applying them through a bit of lateral thinking. The MCAT required one to have a very comprehensive high school / undergrad backing.

(not to derail the focus of this thread)
 
I found the verbal reasoning section to be incredibly poorly written and designed. I almost had to re-train myself to think illogically for the MCAT in order to do well on that section.
 
I found the verbal reasoning section to be incredibly poorly written and designed. I almost had to re-train myself to think illogically for the MCAT in order to do well on that section.

Didn't you get a 15VR? I'm not sure if you're aware how rare that is. I recall that the Columbia medical school application considered VRs of 13-15 as equivalent. If I had gotten a 15VR, I wouldn't be in med school, and would probably have taken on a career as a full-time author.
 
Yes I did and I still write but the novel is essentially a dead art form now and the only way to get published in literary fiction is to go through a creative writing program (another university-corporate scam).

The MCAT Verbal reasoning is just a very poorly constructed section and I found myself laughing at how badly the question makers would interpret and craft sections on some of their favorite topics e.g. comparing Huxley's Brave New World to Orwell's 1984
 
In general, attending a US medical school will make you more competitive for residency in the States, but not all international schools are alike.

I disagree with neulite30 because University of Melbourne is actually one of the best universities in the world for medicine (ranked 12th).

One of my friends from high school who went to Princeton for his undergrad is now at University of Melbourne's MD program.

If you can generate competitive numbers getting into med school, you'll have no issue topping the USMLE, which is even easier than the MCAT.

Most people who go abroad for med school do so because they have to, but a smaller fraction want the life experience.

I had a 38 MCAT and a 225 step 1 (though, I did crush step 2) I thought the MCAT was a lot easier.
 
Pertaining to going to medical school in Australia; do they still have a problem with finding residency spots for all the medical school graduates?
 
Pertaining to going to medical school in Australia; do they still have a problem with finding residency spots for all the medical school graduates?

Yes. It's the intern spots.
 
Pertaining to going to medical school in Australia; do they still have a problem with finding residency spots for all the medical school graduates?

It will be/has been shored up because the schools know that if they lose international students, they will go belly-up.
 
It will be/has been shored up because the schools know that if they lose international students, they will go belly-up.
Do you mean to say then that while it should be a concern for international students and no assumptions should be made about acceptance, it is not as big of a fiasco or nightmare as other threads have made it out to be? (realize this thread is quite old but currently applying to Flinders and UMelbournse so would love to hear more)
 
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Do you mean to say then that while it should be a concern for international students and no assumptions should be made about acceptance, it is not as big of a fiasco or nightmare as other threads have made it out to be? (realize this thread is quite old but currently applying to Flinders and UMelbournse so would love to hear more)

This is still a big issue. However the internship allocation system in Victoria differs from the other states, in that international students are next in line for internship spots after local Australian students (in other states the order is 1. Aussie students graduating from that state 2. Aussie students graduating from another state and 3. International students graduating from that state etc).

In Australia one needs to apply for a specialist training program (the equivalent of a US 'residency') after their internship, and it's likely that this will also end up becoming very competitive and problematic, as the system isn't prepared for the massive influx of newly graduated doctors.

Saying this, don't be put off; so far all internationals I know have managed to get an internship, just not necessarily where they want it.
 
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